Arcanist, was any balancing done before it was released?

Alharion

If I ask myself that question, it's because it's so shocking to do damage with disconcerting ease—

For example, if I go in PVP, it's a barely mounted/full character that I currently use, whether it's on the branches of competence or a number of spells where I don't even have the second evolution for a good part and I do as well as a person having everything in full

Even in PVE it's quite shocking to see the damage that this class can do still not being full on all the skills of the class.

As for the PVP part this class is clearly killing the balance of the game...

OsUfi

Alharion wrote: »

As for the PVP part this class is clearly killing the balance of the game...

I think you'll find the unkillable DKs are ruining PvP.

Oh, and streak sorcs.

Agh, what am I saying, the NB stealth gankers are killing PvP.

Actually, it's the immortal necro tank tower huggers?

Etc, etc, etc...

Alharion

Frankly, the DK isn't even as troublesome as that right now.

The NB is not as scared as before, either, given how it persists on this class.

EdjeSwift

This is a very common game design decision for nearly every monetized game out there, make the shiney and new amazing and slightly to overwhelmingly OP to sell the content, then apply the proper balance later.

Sarannah

Please don't get more things in-game destroyed/removed because of PvP. We have already had too many things destroyed chasing after a false PvP 'balance' that doesn't exist.

Take sorc crystal blast, oakensoul mythic, etc... too many victims are already claimed due to PvP balance purposes. Something which is impossible to achieve.

And if I had to choose, I'd rather have fun than 'balance' at this point.

PS: I don't think arcanist is too strong, it is just easier to deal damage on the class and crux needs to be build first before they can do so. Crux also has to make arcanists choose between offense and defense. They can't do both!

Toxic_Hemlock

EdjeSwift wrote: »

This is a very common game design decision for nearly every monetized game out there, make the shiney and new amazing and slightly to overwhelmingly OP to sell the content, then apply the proper balance later.

/Me sits in corner and weeps after seeing how "well" my necro performs now.

Made two arcanists when they as were first released simply for this reason. Once "balanced" they will just be more crafting mules like my necro is currently. For now though let me have some fun.

Oh and BTW no matter how OP any class is, if you miss your block, dodge, other mechanics during a fight you still die to one hits, in harder content.

manukartofanu

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: I don't think arcanist is too strong, it is just easier to deal damage on the class and crux needs to be build first before they can do so. Crux also has to make arcanists choose between offense and defense. They can't do both!

Basically, what's being said is that dealing damage is way easier, which is why arcanists are considered OP. Take a look around and you'll see everyone knows it. Everyone wants an arcanist in their team, and the crazy part? You don’t have to work hard at all. Just being an arcanist already makes you a sought-after player because they're just that OP.

Four_Fingers

This has been said about every new class released.

Twohothardware

I like where Arcanists damage is right now. I just wish the other classes felt as strong.

I know they’re worried about power creep but players don’t have fun placing 15 DoTs on an enemy to deal the same damage as one or two skills on Arcanist.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Combat & Character Mechanics section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.

OtarTheMad

I fail to see how being easier to deal damage is over powered… to me that is just what people say it is… easier. I can’t really do those complex rotations that are needed to do high numbers on other classes, Arcanist is easier for me to use in PvE. I still not hit 50k dps but that’s okay… I hit 32k I am happy. In PvP I prefer either Sorc or Warden as I feel Arcanist is harder because players aren’t usually dumb enough to just stand in my beam, I need things to line up.

People over use the term over-powered and lean on that “it is a shiny new toy to draw money.” In my opinion Arcanist is in the middle of the classes for dps, kind of below average for healing and maybe second or third best for tanking.

I bought Necrom for Hermaeus Mora content, not Arcanist because in PTS they were fun but not really that special. Plus I feel like it’s not Arcanist that is strong in PvP it’s Maarselok/master dw/vate staff that melts.

EDIT- Also Necro was bad when it landed. Major Vulnerability and Harmony trait carried it and when those were nerfed to oblivion and no other Necro abilities were buffed/changed it just shined a giant spotlight on what’s been wrong with necro since 2019.

KlauthWarthog

Yes, there was plenty of balancing done before releasing it. The entire class toolkit is synergistic, which is a first in the game. This is the reason why it feels stronger than the others.
There are some derps here and there, such as beam counting as a DoT for some divines-forsaken reason, stamina flail and some of the shields being too loaded, but, overall, it mostly needs fine-tuning.
All in all, it is less a case of a class being too good, but of the other classes being poorly designed. I am hoping we get some sanity passes on the other classes in the near future, to clean them up and bring them up to speed.

... and no, I do not main an arcanist.

IZZEFlameLash

manukartofanu wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: I don't think arcanist is too strong, it is just easier to deal damage on the class and crux needs to be build first before they can do so. Crux also has to make arcanists choose between offense and defense. They can't do both!

Basically, what's being said is that dealing damage is way easier, which is why arcanists are considered OP. Take a look around and you'll see everyone knows it. Everyone wants an arcanist in their team, and the crazy part? You don’t have to work hard at all. Just being an arcanist already makes you a sought-after player because they're just that OP.

Being OP and easy to play are not really the same. Being OP is one shot comboing other players or boss. Being easy to play is just that, no need for complex rotations (that gets affected by lags often) to deal reasonable damage.

Arcanist as a class is easy to play DPS/support class. To deal the top damage, you still need all the meta proc sets with rotation executed almost frame perfect like any other classes. It does not magically deal 90-130k damage with just the beam alone.

In PvP setting, Arcanist excels at killing new players and anyone with less gaming sense than you as a player. However, same can be said of all other classes. It doesn't top the DPS either because NB is the undisputed king of damage dealing while being just as tanky in full damage setup as Warden and DK.

manukartofanu

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: I don't think arcanist is too strong, it is just easier to deal damage on the class and crux needs to be build first before they can do so. Crux also has to make arcanists choose between offense and defense. They can't do both!

Basically, what's being said is that dealing damage is way easier, which is why arcanists are considered OP. Take a look around and you'll see everyone knows it. Everyone wants an arcanist in their team, and the crazy part? You don’t have to work hard at all. Just being an arcanist already makes you a sought-after player because they're just that OP.

Being OP and easy to play are not really the same. Being OP is one shot comboing other players or boss. Being easy to play is just that, no need for complex rotations (that gets affected by lags often) to deal reasonable damage.

Arcanist as a class is easy to play DPS/support class. To deal the top damage, you still need all the meta proc sets with rotation executed almost frame perfect like any other classes. It does not magically deal 90-130k damage with just the beam alone.

In PvP setting, Arcanist excels at killing new players and anyone with less gaming sense than you as a player. However, same can be said of all other classes. It doesn't top the DPS either because NB is the undisputed king of damage dealing while being just as tanky in full damage setup as Warden and DK.

Don't confuse terminology and examples from shooters with the reality of MMORPGs. Here, you can't just one-shot someone, and that's fine. Does the Arcanist need to gather something to deal top damage? So do other classes, there's no difference there. However, the difference is that with just 2 skills, an Arcanist can deal the same damage that other classes achieve with 10 skills in their rotation and waiting for all their DoTs to take effect. The Arcanist deals this immediately, effortlessly, and doesn't need to ramp up. If shooter examples are more understandable for you, then just imagine you're given a pistol with which you can still run around, and to one-shot, you don't need to stop and aim like with a sniper rifle. You can keep running and shooting merrily, but there's no spread, and you kill everyone with one shot. Isn't this OP in your world? Just easier to play? Well, okay then.

JanTanhide

I have two Arcanists and I have completed most content in game with all classes. I certainly don't think it's OP. Not for me anyway. I don't have all the super duper proc sets from the Trials and I don't do animation canceling with my old fingers.

The highest I parsed on the big Trial dummy (the one with all the buffs and debuffs) is 49K and that was not easy for me.

Arcanist is easier to play but it certainly isn't OP. The PVP crowd complains about balance constantly. It doesn't matter what class it is someone complains about it on this Forum.

ZOS often listens for some reason to the PVP complaints and then goes off the deep end and nerfs the class being complained about so hard it becomes useless in PVE and PVP. Take Necro for example. Ruined. Gutted. Destroyed. All because of PVP complaining in my opinion.

The game will never be balanced for PVP. It just isn't possible. Never was, never will be. PVE players make up the majority of this game. I would guess at least 95%. Yet ZOS destroys the game for PVE due to PVP. Makes no sense at all.

IZZEFlameLash

manukartofanu wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: I don't think arcanist is too strong, it is just easier to deal damage on the class and crux needs to be build first before they can do so. Crux also has to make arcanists choose between offense and defense. They can't do both!

Basically, what's being said is that dealing damage is way easier, which is why arcanists are considered OP. Take a look around and you'll see everyone knows it. Everyone wants an arcanist in their team, and the crazy part? You don’t have to work hard at all. Just being an arcanist already makes you a sought-after player because they're just that OP.

Being OP and easy to play are not really the same. Being OP is one shot comboing other players or boss. Being easy to play is just that, no need for complex rotations (that gets affected by lags often) to deal reasonable damage.

Arcanist as a class is easy to play DPS/support class. To deal the top damage, you still need all the meta proc sets with rotation executed almost frame perfect like any other classes. It does not magically deal 90-130k damage with just the beam alone.

In PvP setting, Arcanist excels at killing new players and anyone with less gaming sense than you as a player. However, same can be said of all other classes. It doesn't top the DPS either because NB is the undisputed king of damage dealing while being just as tanky in full damage setup as Warden and DK.

Don't confuse terminology and examples from shooters with the reality of MMORPGs. Here, you can't just one-shot someone, and that's fine. Does the Arcanist need to gather something to deal top damage? So do other classes, there's no difference there. However, the difference is that with just 2 skills, an Arcanist can deal the same damage that other classes achieve with 10 skills in their rotation and waiting for all their DoTs to take effect. The Arcanist deals this immediately, effortlessly, and doesn't need to ramp up. If shooter examples are more understandable for you, then just imagine you're given a pistol with which you can still run around, and to one-shot, you don't need to stop and aim like with a sniper rifle. You can keep running and shooting merrily, but there's no spread, and you kill everyone with one shot. Isn't this OP in your world? Just easier to play? Well, okay then.

In PvP, many players are smart enough to not sit in beams. In PvE, Inspired Scholarship -> 2x Flail -> Fatecarver and/or Languid Eye isn't really putting out any more DPS than a player on other classes with imperfect rotation and/or equally non-optimal gear setup. I can hit 50-60k on other classes in my complete off-meta PvE builds with imperfect rotations. I can hit that number on my Arcanist with equally imperfect rotation but more meta-beginner setups (setup that supposedly can pull up to 100k on all classes, including Arcanist if done with perfect rotations). Maintaining that 50k-60k number also involves using about the same number of skills as other classes. If not, only time I can hit 60k easy with only using Inspired Scholarship + 2x Flail + Fatecarver with Arcanist is when my ult is up and that's usually at the beginning of boss encounter. But then, this 50k-60k dps also happens on other classes when I have my ults up. All the while, same happens with PvE gurus that have perfected their rotations and optimized gears for each classes. From what I can tell, Arcanist doesn't really shoot itself far and away at the hands of PvE gurus either. Basically caps out at around the same parse number as other classes where getting more crits during the parse becoming the only factor in higher number at that point. I don't know, that screams that the class was actually very well balanced before the official launch.

Your hypothetical pistol in a hypothetical game analogy is invalid. Such a pistol, first of all, would never exist in any non-complete joke shooter games outside of being an admin weapon or pistol at the hands of a cheater using hacks. Hence, such a thing is already a complete outlier weapon and not reflective of anything else. Arcanist is more akin to this one SMG/AR/DMR/Sniper everyone crutches on because of its ease of use (usually due to having easy to control recoil, decent damage output) that will carry the player to a certain degree. But it certainly won't turn them into e-sports tier players because it doesn't compensate for the player's reaction time, player's aim (a.k.a player's own skill, in MMO terms, executing your rotation in PvE context). Arcanist is exactly that.

So, it would seem that I am not the one confusing the term here for now. For something to be 'overpowered' in traditional RPG (be it MMO or Action) sense, some item, or some class has to really pull far ahead of others without requiring any other conditions and its difference made even clearer at higher skill level. Arcanist doesn't fit that bill at all. Is it pulling ahead of other classes' dps at below average level? Yeah, maybe. Because obviously, those at skill floor will definitely be carried by easy-to-use to a certain level because easy-to-use also means certain invisible skill barriers are eliminated. Is it pulling far ahead of everything at average to high skill level? No. This is a classic sign of 'easy-to-use' anything. 'Overpowered' used to be only used when certain setup/class was clearly pulling way ahead of others and that gap only growing wider at the higher skill level gameplay like DK DPS of more recent olden days. But now, apparently, everything is 'overpowered' if there's under 2% performance gain to be had. Even though as we speak, no one is really picking up 2% damage reduction/boost visions from EA unless other vision options are objectively worse ones. I suppose, thanks all these clickbait 'BROKEN SUPER OP ELITE GOD-TIER (whatever gear setup, class you want named here)' videos for muddying up the definition of 'overpowered' for gamers.

CameraBeardThePirate

Arcanist really isn't OP. They have a very high baseline damage in PvE, but they're also not topping DPS charts - they're just easy to play.

In PvP, Beam can do incredibly high damage, but requires locking down the target(s) via someone else in the group using a pull set or snares etc. It's certainly not any stronger than a min/maxed Soul Tether Nightblade or a group with good spike damage.

The only thing that could use toning down is really just Impervious Runeward, and I don't think it needs a particularly large nerf either. The initial shield is incredibly powerful, and certainly overtuned, but anything more than a slight nerf (say, 15%?) would likely make Arcanist feel very bad to play considering Runemend isn't a particularly strong burst heal.

The stun is also something people complain about - and I do agree that ZOS needs to take a look at it. The stun is extremely telegraphed and blockable. The problem is that it's very inconsistent with break-free. It isn't OP - it's functionally broken. Nerfing the class because an ability isn't working correctly is how Blastbones was such a garbage ability at Necro's launch. Fix the stun (or charms in general) being inconsistent and the problem is solved.

Alharion

Before you say that this class is not OP, go play battleground for a while and you will see how wrong you are by saying this, currently, the class completely ruins this mode...

Quethrosar

yes the beam hits even if you aren't in it lol.

CameraBeardThePirate

Alharion wrote: »

Before you say that this class is not OP, go play battleground for a while and you will see how wrong you are by saying this, currently, the class completely ruins this mode...

Practically all I do is play BGs lol

Oblivion_Protocol

Alharion wrote: »

Before you say that this class is not OP, go play battleground for a while and you will see how wrong you are by saying this, currently, the class completely ruins this mode...

Arcanists make Battlegrounds more interesting. It’s the immortal 40K HP Polar Wind spamming Wardens that make Battlegrounds unbearable. Frankly, most Arcanists melt if you get two or three people jumping on them. You can only spam Impervious Runeward so many times.

Skoomah

You guys are silly. I die on my Arcanist all the time.

boi_anachronism_

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Arcanist really isn't OP. They have a very high baseline damage in PvE, but they're also not topping DPS charts - they're just easy to play.

In PvP, Beam can do incredibly high damage, but requires locking down the target(s) via someone else in the group using a pull set or snares etc. It's certainly not any stronger than a min/maxed Soul Tether Nightblade or a group with good spike damage.

The only thing that could use toning down is really just Impervious Runeward, and I don't think it needs a particularly large nerf either. The initial shield is incredibly powerful, and certainly overtuned, but anything more than a slight nerf (say, 15%?) would likely make Arcanist feel very bad to play considering Runemend isn't a particularly strong burst heal.

The stun is also something people complain about - and I do agree that ZOS needs to take a look at it. The stun is extremely telegraphed and blockable. The problem is that it's very inconsistent with break-free. It isn't OP - it's functionally broken. Nerfing the class because an ability isn't working correctly is how Blastbones was such a garbage ability at Necro's launch. Fix the stun (or charms in general) being inconsistent and the problem is solved.

15% is a huge nerf. Impervious is the one skill that makes arc tanks viable. They have no self burst heal. All heals can go to other players. That's why they need it. As far as pvp the issue with it is just a symptom of players being able to stack hp and still get high damage making their shield stronger since it scales of hp. Undeath is a major issue with this too and pvp arc generally just crutch on proc sets. I can tell you right now if they nerfed Impervious by that much id have to shelf my arc tank completely and use another.

CameraBeardThePirate

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Arcanist really isn't OP. They have a very high baseline damage in PvE, but they're also not topping DPS charts - they're just easy to play.

In PvP, Beam can do incredibly high damage, but requires locking down the target(s) via someone else in the group using a pull set or snares etc. It's certainly not any stronger than a min/maxed Soul Tether Nightblade or a group with good spike damage.

The only thing that could use toning down is really just Impervious Runeward, and I don't think it needs a particularly large nerf either. The initial shield is incredibly powerful, and certainly overtuned, but anything more than a slight nerf (say, 15%?) would likely make Arcanist feel very bad to play considering Runemend isn't a particularly strong burst heal.

The stun is also something people complain about - and I do agree that ZOS needs to take a look at it. The stun is extremely telegraphed and blockable. The problem is that it's very inconsistent with break-free. It isn't OP - it's functionally broken. Nerfing the class because an ability isn't working correctly is how Blastbones was such a garbage ability at Necro's launch. Fix the stun (or charms in general) being inconsistent and the problem is solved.

15% is a huge nerf. Impervious is the one skill that makes arc tanks viable. They have no self burst heal. All heals can go to other players. That's why they need it. As far as pvp the issue with it is just a symptom of players being able to stack hp and still get high damage making their shield stronger since it scales of hp. Undeath is a major issue with this too and pvp arc generally just crutch on proc sets. I can tell you right now if they nerfed Impervious by that much id have to shelf my arc tank completely and use another.

Yah I should've worded a little clearer - my point was that 15% is probably the upper limit of an "acceptable" nerf without completely dumpstering the ability. I agree that Impervious needs to be as strong as it does because Runemend itself is so booty.

Nerfing Undeath (which applies its mitigation to damage shields and block for some odd reason) and changing base health/health attribute points to discourage high health stacking would be a much better way to reduce the "immortal" feeling that some Arcs in PvP seem to reach. Also worth noting that people are still reporting a bug allowing Arcs to bottom out their health without actually dying - if that bug is indeed still in the game then that fix would certainly help things too

YetAnotherLinuxUser

marketing. it's buffed because it's new. they want you to buy the dlc to get the perks. how many times someone has to repeat themselves before they are heard? all this drama over nothing.

boi_anachronism_

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Arcanist really isn't OP. They have a very high baseline damage in PvE, but they're also not topping DPS charts - they're just easy to play.

In PvP, Beam can do incredibly high damage, but requires locking down the target(s) via someone else in the group using a pull set or snares etc. It's certainly not any stronger than a min/maxed Soul Tether Nightblade or a group with good spike damage.

The only thing that could use toning down is really just Impervious Runeward, and I don't think it needs a particularly large nerf either. The initial shield is incredibly powerful, and certainly overtuned, but anything more than a slight nerf (say, 15%?) would likely make Arcanist feel very bad to play considering Runemend isn't a particularly strong burst heal.

The stun is also something people complain about - and I do agree that ZOS needs to take a look at it. The stun is extremely telegraphed and blockable. The problem is that it's very inconsistent with break-free. It isn't OP - it's functionally broken. Nerfing the class because an ability isn't working correctly is how Blastbones was such a garbage ability at Necro's launch. Fix the stun (or charms in general) being inconsistent and the problem is solved.

15% is a huge nerf. Impervious is the one skill that makes arc tanks viable. They have no self burst heal. All heals can go to other players. That's why they need it. As far as pvp the issue with it is just a symptom of players being able to stack hp and still get high damage making their shield stronger since it scales of hp. Undeath is a major issue with this too and pvp arc generally just crutch on proc sets. I can tell you right now if they nerfed Impervious by that much id have to shelf my arc tank completely and use another.

Yah I should've worded a little clearer - my point was that 15% is probably the upper limit of an "acceptable" nerf without completely dumpstering the ability. I agree that Impervious needs to be as strong as it does because Runemend itself is so booty.

Nerfing Undeath (which applies its mitigation to damage shields and block for some odd reason) and changing base health/health attribute points to discourage high health stacking would be a much better way to reduce the "immortal" feeling that some Arcs in PvP seem to reach. Also worth noting that people are still reporting a bug allowing Arcs to bottom out their health without actually dying - if that bug is indeed still in the game then that fix would certainly help things too

I agree. In general i think most classes would be not really be op in this way in pvp if the underlyng issues were addressed. Nbs with insane damage couldnt face tank you, 50k health wardens wouldnt be nuking people ect. It making balance for both play styles even more impossible because people immediately gravitate to nerf x shield or skill when it actually would be fine. I mean its a shield that stacks off your max health and is a bit more potent because they have no heals. tanks should be the only build capable of stacking to kind of hp to make this skill really good. For a dps it should be useful in specific situations not a spam and survive. It is actually well balanced from a pve perspective in my opinion. If an arc needed to remain at under 30k hp to still put out decent damage i really dont think this would even be an issue.

Alharion

It's sad to be defending a class that's more suited to hack'n slash than MMORPGs - the radius is clearly uneven, making the game clearly unplayable, to the point where you even wonder if the armour is respected by this class...

IZZEFlameLash

Alharion wrote: »

It's sad to be defending a class that's more suited to hack'n slash than MMORPGs - the radius is clearly uneven, making the game clearly unplayable, to the point where you even wonder if the armour is respected by this class...

Not any sadder than defending a class that has nearly all the buffs built into the class and deals 20-40k damage easy, all the while healing easy for 15k-20k with cheap burst heals, can be untargettable with invisibility and etc.

manukartofanu

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

In PvP, many players are smart enough to not sit in beams. In PvE, Inspired Scholarship -> 2x Flail -> Fatecarver and/or Languid Eye isn't really putting out any more DPS than a player on other classes with imperfect rotation and/or equally non-optimal gear setup. I can hit 50-60k on other classes in my complete off-meta PvE builds with imperfect rotations. I can hit that number on my Arcanist with equally imperfect rotation but more meta-beginner setups (setup that supposedly can pull up to 100k on all classes, including Arcanist if done with perfect rotations). Maintaining that 50k-60k number also involves using about the same number of skills as other classes. If not, only time I can hit 60k easy with only using Inspired Scholarship + 2x Flail + Fatecarver with Arcanist is when my ult is up and that's usually at the beginning of boss encounter. But then, this 50k-60k dps also happens on other classes when I have my ults up. All the while, same happens with PvE gurus that have perfected their rotations and optimized gears for each classes. From what I can tell, Arcanist doesn't really shoot itself far and away at the hands of PvE gurus either. Basically caps out at around the same parse number as other classes where getting more crits during the parse becoming the only factor in higher number at that point. I don't know, that screams that the class was actually very well balanced before the official launch.

Your hypothetical pistol in a hypothetical game analogy is invalid. Such a pistol, first of all, would never exist in any non-complete joke shooter games outside of being an admin weapon or pistol at the hands of a cheater using hacks. Hence, such a thing is already a complete outlier weapon and not reflective of anything else. Arcanist is more akin to this one SMG/AR/DMR/Sniper everyone crutches on because of its ease of use (usually due to having easy to control recoil, decent damage output) that will carry the player to a certain degree. But it certainly won't turn them into e-sports tier players because it doesn't compensate for the player's reaction time, player's aim (a.k.a player's own skill, in MMO terms, executing your rotation in PvE context). Arcanist is exactly that.

So, it would seem that I am not the one confusing the term here for now. For something to be 'overpowered' in traditional RPG (be it MMO or Action) sense, some item, or some class has to really pull far ahead of others without requiring any other conditions and its difference made even clearer at higher skill level. Arcanist doesn't fit that bill at all. Is it pulling ahead of other classes' dps at below average level? Yeah, maybe. Because obviously, those at skill floor will definitely be carried by easy-to-use to a certain level because easy-to-use also means certain invisible skill barriers are eliminated. Is it pulling far ahead of everything at average to high skill level? No. This is a classic sign of 'easy-to-use' anything. 'Overpowered' used to be only used when certain setup/class was clearly pulling way ahead of others and that gap only growing wider at the higher skill level gameplay like DK DPS of more recent olden days. But now, apparently, everything is 'overpowered' if there's under 2% performance gain to be had. Even though as we speak, no one is really picking up 2% damage reduction/boost visions from EA unless other vision options are objectively worse ones. I suppose, thanks all these clickbait 'BROKEN SUPER OP ELITE GOD-TIER (whatever gear setup, class you want named here)' videos for muddying up the definition of 'overpowered' for gamers.

Your experience seems to focus on theoretical maximum DPS outputs in controlled environments like dummy tests. However, real raid scenarios are far different. In actual gameplay, it's not just about hitting high numbers on a dummy; it's about consistently delivering damage in dynamic, often chaotic, combat situations. This is where Arcanists shine.

Arcanists are designed for fast and efficient damage output, which is essential in real fights. While they may not always top the DPS charts in controlled tests, their ability to rapidly deal full damage makes them dominant in actual raids. Interestingly, players who struggle to reach 70k DPS on a dummy with other classes can reach up to 100k DPS with an Arcanist under similar dummy test conditions. This shows the inherent efficiency and potential of the Arcanist class even in controlled environments.

Moreover, in a typical four-person dungeon group, achieving 60k DPS is a rarity for most classes. However, Arcanists can reach these numbers more readily. In larger trial groups, where synergy and group dynamics play a bigger role, Arcanists often easily hit 100k DPS. This performance isn't just about the class being 'easy-to-use'; it's about the class being effectively designed for the realities of combat in the game.

In gaming communities, such as on Discord, there's a noticeable trend: groups are actively seeking Arcanists for their trial groups. This preference stems from the Arcanists' ability to deliver consistent and reliable performance in challenging group scenarios. Additionally, these groups often have a high benchmark for DPS, usually around 120k+. They tend to prefer Arcanists or, alternatively, players of other classes who can meet this high DPS standard. This situation highlights the Arcanists' capability to achieve such high DPS more easily than other classes, particularly in high-level play.

So, while I understand your points about DPS in controlled settings, and the theoretical ability of other players to counter Arcanists in PvP, the actual dominance of Arcanists in both PvP and trials completely shatters some of these theoretical discussions about them not being overpowered. The real effectiveness and superiority of Arcanists in active gameplay scenarios, whether in PvP or trials, speak louder than theoretical assumptions, showcasing their true strength in the game.

IZZEFlameLash

manukartofanu wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

In PvP, many players are smart enough to not sit in beams. In PvE, Inspired Scholarship -> 2x Flail -> Fatecarver and/or Languid Eye isn't really putting out any more DPS than a player on other classes with imperfect rotation and/or equally non-optimal gear setup. I can hit 50-60k on other classes in my complete off-meta PvE builds with imperfect rotations. I can hit that number on my Arcanist with equally imperfect rotation but more meta-beginner setups (setup that supposedly can pull up to 100k on all classes, including Arcanist if done with perfect rotations). Maintaining that 50k-60k number also involves using about the same number of skills as other classes. If not, only time I can hit 60k easy with only using Inspired Scholarship + 2x Flail + Fatecarver with Arcanist is when my ult is up and that's usually at the beginning of boss encounter. But then, this 50k-60k dps also happens on other classes when I have my ults up. All the while, same happens with PvE gurus that have perfected their rotations and optimized gears for each classes. From what I can tell, Arcanist doesn't really shoot itself far and away at the hands of PvE gurus either. Basically caps out at around the same parse number as other classes where getting more crits during the parse becoming the only factor in higher number at that point. I don't know, that screams that the class was actually very well balanced before the official launch.

Your hypothetical pistol in a hypothetical game analogy is invalid. Such a pistol, first of all, would never exist in any non-complete joke shooter games outside of being an admin weapon or pistol at the hands of a cheater using hacks. Hence, such a thing is already a complete outlier weapon and not reflective of anything else. Arcanist is more akin to this one SMG/AR/DMR/Sniper everyone crutches on because of its ease of use (usually due to having easy to control recoil, decent damage output) that will carry the player to a certain degree. But it certainly won't turn them into e-sports tier players because it doesn't compensate for the player's reaction time, player's aim (a.k.a player's own skill, in MMO terms, executing your rotation in PvE context). Arcanist is exactly that.

So, it would seem that I am not the one confusing the term here for now. For something to be 'overpowered' in traditional RPG (be it MMO or Action) sense, some item, or some class has to really pull far ahead of others without requiring any other conditions and its difference made even clearer at higher skill level. Arcanist doesn't fit that bill at all. Is it pulling ahead of other classes' dps at below average level? Yeah, maybe. Because obviously, those at skill floor will definitely be carried by easy-to-use to a certain level because easy-to-use also means certain invisible skill barriers are eliminated. Is it pulling far ahead of everything at average to high skill level? No. This is a classic sign of 'easy-to-use' anything. 'Overpowered' used to be only used when certain setup/class was clearly pulling way ahead of others and that gap only growing wider at the higher skill level gameplay like DK DPS of more recent olden days. But now, apparently, everything is 'overpowered' if there's under 2% performance gain to be had. Even though as we speak, no one is really picking up 2% damage reduction/boost visions from EA unless other vision options are objectively worse ones. I suppose, thanks all these clickbait 'BROKEN SUPER OP ELITE GOD-TIER (whatever gear setup, class you want named here)' videos for muddying up the definition of 'overpowered' for gamers.

Your experience seems to focus on theoretical maximum DPS outputs in controlled environments like dummy tests. However, real raid scenarios are far different. In actual gameplay, it's not just about hitting high numbers on a dummy; it's about consistently delivering damage in dynamic, often chaotic, combat situations. This is where Arcanists shine.

Arcanists are designed for fast and efficient damage output, which is essential in real fights. While they may not always top the DPS charts in controlled tests, their ability to rapidly deal full damage makes them dominant in actual raids. Interestingly, players who struggle to reach 70k DPS on a dummy with other classes can reach up to 100k DPS with an Arcanist under similar dummy test conditions. This shows the inherent efficiency and potential of the Arcanist class even in controlled environments.

Moreover, in a typical four-person dungeon group, achieving 60k DPS is a rarity for most classes. However, Arcanists can reach these numbers more readily. In larger trial groups, where synergy and group dynamics play a bigger role, Arcanists often easily hit 100k DPS. This performance isn't just about the class being 'easy-to-use'; it's about the class being effectively designed for the realities of combat in the game.

In gaming communities, such as on Discord, there's a noticeable trend: groups are actively seeking Arcanists for their trial groups. This preference stems from the Arcanists' ability to deliver consistent and reliable performance in challenging group scenarios. Additionally, these groups often have a high benchmark for DPS, usually around 120k+. They tend to prefer Arcanists or, alternatively, players of other classes who can meet this high DPS standard. This situation highlights the Arcanists' capability to achieve such high DPS more easily than other classes, particularly in high-level play.

So, while I understand your points about DPS in controlled settings, and the theoretical ability of other players to counter Arcanists in PvP, the actual dominance of Arcanists in both PvP and trials completely shatters some of these theoretical discussions about them not being overpowered. The real effectiveness and superiority of Arcanists in active gameplay scenarios, whether in PvP or trials, speak louder than theoretical assumptions, showcasing their true strength in the game.

DPS is largely dictated by the rotation and this is the actual reality for any kind of serious PvE content engagement in a MMO. You can have all the perfect gears in the world and you won't have top number without proper rotation in any circumstances in the game. Even in actual dungeon fights, knowing mechanics and adapting your rotation accordingly is key to having high dps on top of having perfect gears.

Also, being efficiently designed for the current combat of the game is exactly what 'ease of use' literally means. Anything considered 'easy to use' in any industry tends to be the thing that came out to specifically do the task required at higher efficiency. Arcanist DPS rotation allows for DoTs to fall off for a bit without significant drop in DPS number, hence being far more forgiving than say a Dragonknight DPS. Hence, making for far easier rotation to maintain that baseline DPS.

Arcanist has innate cleave and this game's trials and dungeons are filled with adds and trash mobs. So, no reason not to have Arcanists be the DD. Because, it has easy rotation that is pretty much applicable to all situations due to built in cleave. If anything, other classes should take a lesson from Arcanist designs.

OtarTheMad

manukartofanu wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

In PvP, many players are smart enough to not sit in beams. In PvE, Inspired Scholarship -> 2x Flail -> Fatecarver and/or Languid Eye isn't really putting out any more DPS than a player on other classes with imperfect rotation and/or equally non-optimal gear setup. I can hit 50-60k on other classes in my complete off-meta PvE builds with imperfect rotations. I can hit that number on my Arcanist with equally imperfect rotation but more meta-beginner setups (setup that supposedly can pull up to 100k on all classes, including Arcanist if done with perfect rotations). Maintaining that 50k-60k number also involves using about the same number of skills as other classes. If not, only time I can hit 60k easy with only using Inspired Scholarship + 2x Flail + Fatecarver with Arcanist is when my ult is up and that's usually at the beginning of boss encounter. But then, this 50k-60k dps also happens on other classes when I have my ults up. All the while, same happens with PvE gurus that have perfected their rotations and optimized gears for each classes. From what I can tell, Arcanist doesn't really shoot itself far and away at the hands of PvE gurus either. Basically caps out at around the same parse number as other classes where getting more crits during the parse becoming the only factor in higher number at that point. I don't know, that screams that the class was actually very well balanced before the official launch.

Your hypothetical pistol in a hypothetical game analogy is invalid. Such a pistol, first of all, would never exist in any non-complete joke shooter games outside of being an admin weapon or pistol at the hands of a cheater using hacks. Hence, such a thing is already a complete outlier weapon and not reflective of anything else. Arcanist is more akin to this one SMG/AR/DMR/Sniper everyone crutches on because of its ease of use (usually due to having easy to control recoil, decent damage output) that will carry the player to a certain degree. But it certainly won't turn them into e-sports tier players because it doesn't compensate for the player's reaction time, player's aim (a.k.a player's own skill, in MMO terms, executing your rotation in PvE context). Arcanist is exactly that.

So, it would seem that I am not the one confusing the term here for now. For something to be 'overpowered' in traditional RPG (be it MMO or Action) sense, some item, or some class has to really pull far ahead of others without requiring any other conditions and its difference made even clearer at higher skill level. Arcanist doesn't fit that bill at all. Is it pulling ahead of other classes' dps at below average level? Yeah, maybe. Because obviously, those at skill floor will definitely be carried by easy-to-use to a certain level because easy-to-use also means certain invisible skill barriers are eliminated. Is it pulling far ahead of everything at average to high skill level? No. This is a classic sign of 'easy-to-use' anything. 'Overpowered' used to be only used when certain setup/class was clearly pulling way ahead of others and that gap only growing wider at the higher skill level gameplay like DK DPS of more recent olden days. But now, apparently, everything is 'overpowered' if there's under 2% performance gain to be had. Even though as we speak, no one is really picking up 2% damage reduction/boost visions from EA unless other vision options are objectively worse ones. I suppose, thanks all these clickbait 'BROKEN SUPER OP ELITE GOD-TIER (whatever gear setup, class you want named here)' videos for muddying up the definition of 'overpowered' for gamers.

Your experience seems to focus on theoretical maximum DPS outputs in controlled environments like dummy tests. However, real raid scenarios are far different. In actual gameplay, it's not just about hitting high numbers on a dummy; it's about consistently delivering damage in dynamic, often chaotic, combat situations. This is where Arcanists shine.

Arcanists are designed for fast and efficient damage output, which is essential in real fights. While they may not always top the DPS charts in controlled tests, their ability to rapidly deal full damage makes them dominant in actual raids. Interestingly, players who struggle to reach 70k DPS on a dummy with other classes can reach up to 100k DPS with an Arcanist under similar dummy test conditions. This shows the inherent efficiency and potential of the Arcanist class even in controlled environments.

Moreover, in a typical four-person dungeon group, achieving 60k DPS is a rarity for most classes. However, Arcanists can reach these numbers more readily. In larger trial groups, where synergy and group dynamics play a bigger role, Arcanists often easily hit 100k DPS. This performance isn't just about the class being 'easy-to-use'; it's about the class being effectively designed for the realities of combat in the game.

In gaming communities, such as on Discord, there's a noticeable trend: groups are actively seeking Arcanists for their trial groups. This preference stems from the Arcanists' ability to deliver consistent and reliable performance in challenging group scenarios. Additionally, these groups often have a high benchmark for DPS, usually around 120k+. They tend to prefer Arcanists or, alternatively, players of other classes who can meet this high DPS standard. This situation highlights the Arcanists' capability to achieve such high DPS more easily than other classes, particularly in high-level play.

So, while I understand your points about DPS in controlled settings, and the theoretical ability of other players to counter Arcanists in PvP, the actual dominance of Arcanists in both PvP and trials completely shatters some of these theoretical discussions about them not being overpowered. The real effectiveness and superiority of Arcanists in active gameplay scenarios, whether in PvP or trials, speak louder than theoretical assumptions, showcasing their true strength in the game.

Arcanists are not dominant in PvP in my opinion. DK, Warden, NB and even Sorc depending on who plays it can be more powerful. Arcanist beam, which is most if not all of their power, heavily relies on stuns, immobilization and other things lining up perfectly in order to perform. That’s easy to avoid more often times than not. I don’t know how many times I’ve avoided Fatecarver or the Watcher ultimate, it’s not that hard.

In PvE Arcanist is just easier to play. Plus, I don’t really base my opinion on if a class is dominant or OP based on trial groups. These groups will do anything and play anything that will bring get them higher on the leaderboard.