nightblades out of control in pvp

reazea

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I have the solution. I have thought it and it is brilliant.

When a nightblade breaks cloak in combat (or their cloak gets broken), they get the revealed debuff for 5 seconds. That's 5 seconds that cloak cannot be crutched on in combat every time they use cloak offensively or defensively.

Then, make cloak a toggle. Make it work like sneak, but cost magicka per second and provide invisibility.

There we go, a significant in combat limitation and out of combat quality of life buff. Everyone wins.

That might work. Good suggestion.

OBJnoob

While slotted on either bar, increases damage done and critical chance against monsters by 5%. If this ability is cast while in combat increases the damage done to monsters by your NB abilities by 10% for 5 seconds.

This way they could have gotten a passive 5% damage done and crit chance against monsters for having cloak slotted and if they use a GCD to cast cloak, they get an additional 10% damage done against monsters and it wouldn't have affected PvP at all, unlike the direction they chose to go where it just gives major prophecy/savagery everywhere. Oh, this would also give NB the additional damage from vamp passive as well, so its +15% damage done, +5% crit chance and + 300 weapon/spell damage for 5 seconds from casting cloak in PvE situations, well worth 1 GCD for the majority of situations.

[/quote]

Galeriano wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

Right but how DO you actually balance that? I mean im in favor of a ramping cost for disguise but beyond that, well, idk. Its one of the few truly class unique skills. I dont see them getting rid of it but what do you actually do with it beyond what i mentioned. Side point: the fact that they made the concealed operate coming out of stealth was a bad call tbh. Im saying this as a nb main (althought i dont pvp with him at all)

Pretty simple. After dealing direct dmg You cannot enter invisibility for X seconds. For that period of time cloak can be turned into something else like dmg reduction buff for example major protection or some debuff on enemy like major maim or even some unique dmg buff which could help nb in PvE. They could even go as far as supressing Your DoTs on enemy while You are in cloak although that is not necessity. Ramping cost on cloak would be actually too much of a nerf.

Hard no to giving them major protection or major maim. Eesh.

Why though? We are talking about giving them one of the said buffs while they cannot use cloak which sounds pretty fair. it would be still way less defense than cloak offers because cloaked nb have basically 100% dmg reduction so it really wouldn;t be that bad to deal 90% of the dmg instead of 0.

You know who else can't use cloak? Everybody.

Acting like Cloak is the only way to survive on a NB is very outdated thinking. They can block and heal and roll just like the rest of us.

NBs already have access to more in-class buffs and debuffs than anyone else, don't they? The last thing we need is for the best burst class to be able to stack major cowardice, minor cowardice, and major maim on someone. Major protection wouldn't be much better. I mean let's just consolidate it all into passives, shall we? NBs will do 35% more damage to you. And you'll do 35% less to them... Because they can't just invis and run away.

That being said, I'm not supporting trying to give cloak a ramping cost anyway. There's nothing wrong with cloak.

Anyway, just my opinion, but for PvP they're too strong. And your proposed change would be a buff. I'm against buffing NBs. I am in favor of reworking the class to be better at PvE and worse at PvP.

You are looking too much on what nightblade would get and not seeing what would be lost. Alternatively ZoS could also add a debuff that invisibility part of cloak is disabled for X seconds after doing roll dodge to prevent nightblades for getting one of the most unfair adventages over other classes which is being able to reset dodge cost penatly safely in cloak. This game desperately needs some form of drawback added to cloak and adding a bit of compensation to nightblades in return is better than keeping the things the way they are.

The good NBs I see don't crutch on cloak like they used to anyway. I think that's the main disagreement between us.

Like you're looking for a solution to the evasive, extra glass cannon, ganker bomber NBs.

I'm looking for a solution to the NBs that take a beating from 3 decent players and then ganks your face in plain sight.

The NBs you're talking about can already be handled with the incredible range on detect pots, can they not? Or just a well timed 3-shot.

The NBs I'm talking about really only cloak to guarantee a crit, to have major savagery on their bar, to activate vampire spell damage, and under your proposed circumstances I guess to maintain their mitigation buff/debuff.

Off the top of my head, these are the buffs/debuffs in a NB's class kit: Major evasion, major berserk, major cowardice, minor cowardice, minor courage, minor vulnerability, major fracture (whatever it's called these days,) minor protection (if you sacrifice invis,) major expedition, minor expedition, major defile (if you sacrifice 20% damage done,) major resolve, major brutality, minor savagery... Okay I think I'm out. No wait, Minor Mending.

Now for the unnamed benefits, depending on which skills and morphs they choose of course. Extra 20% damage, roll dodge cost reduction stacking up to 100%, invisibility, healing full every time they kill someone, teleportation, unparalleled synergy with vampire, the hardest hitting ability on the game, and guaranteed crits.

I just don't see why they need anything else ever, to be honest. If you want to nerf them then nerf them. They don't need compensation for it.

Panderbander

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I have the solution. I have thought it and it is brilliant.

When a nightblade breaks cloak in combat (or their cloak gets broken), they get the revealed debuff for 5 seconds. That's 5 seconds that cloak cannot be crutched on in combat every time they use cloak offensively or defensively.

Then, make cloak a toggle. Make it work like sneak, but cost magicka per second and provide invisibility.

There we go, a significant in combat limitation and out of combat quality of life buff. Everyone wins.

Every single cost per second ability can be broken by cost reduction glyphs. This suggestion would enable cloak to become free.

IZZEFlameLash

Panderbander wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I have the solution. I have thought it and it is brilliant.

When a nightblade breaks cloak in combat (or their cloak gets broken), they get the revealed debuff for 5 seconds. That's 5 seconds that cloak cannot be crutched on in combat every time they use cloak offensively or defensively.

Then, make cloak a toggle. Make it work like sneak, but cost magicka per second and provide invisibility.

There we go, a significant in combat limitation and out of combat quality of life buff. Everyone wins.

Every single cost per second ability can be broken by cost reduction glyphs. This suggestion would enable cloak to become free.

Maybe that is what he is looking for, perma-invisibility

DrNukenstein

Why would a ganker ever use cost reduction glyphs? Those don't give the most important stat for making people go boom.

Panderbander

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Why would a ganker ever use cost reduction glyphs? Those don't give the most important stat for making people go boom.

I am simply suggesting that making a strong ability like cloak capable of being made completely free of cost can have unintended consequences down the line. Just look at DK and Cinder Storm where a single infused cost reduction gives them the strongest ground-based aoe heal in the game at zero cost.

Turtle_Bot

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Why would a ganker ever use cost reduction glyphs? Those don't give the most important stat for making people go boom.

Hmm, free permanent cloak means more magicka available to cast more damaging abilities (or heals/buffs), sounds like an easy trade off to me.
I would get to not only gank at near enough full power to still make 99.9% of people go boom, but I now also have a lot more magicka available to heal myself and keep myself buffed up for longer and more often meaning I take less damage if things go wrong and can create more opportunities to gank since I'm spending less time between ganks to buff myself or recover from the previous gank attempt.

IZZEFlameLash

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Why would a ganker ever use cost reduction glyphs? Those don't give the most important stat for making people go boom.

Better question is, who wouldn't take a single cost reduction glyph for perma-invisibility if that toggle and per second cost change is actually made? NBs not on gank setup can still gank a 30k health, 28-33k resist people as easily as a gank setup. If a balanced setup can do that, why would a ganker not sacrifice a damage glyph for free invisibility? After all, most gankers wear proc sets on top of stacking damage, which is almost always an overkill save for full dedicated pvp tanks.

Come now, we aren't in the era of 'Nightblades have to rely on Caluurion's Legacy to be viable' period. That era is over. They deal that Caluurion damage with an ability that hits players harder than all ults at this point.

Vaqual

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Why would a ganker ever use cost reduction glyphs? Those don't give the most important stat for making people go boom.

Hmm, free permanent cloak means more magicka available to cast more damaging abilities (or heals/buffs), sounds like an easy trade off to me.
I would get to not only gank at near enough full power to still make 99.9% of people go boom, but I now also have a lot more magicka available to heal myself and keep myself buffed up for longer and more often meaning I take less damage if things go wrong and can create more opportunities to gank since I'm spending less time between ganks to buff myself or recover from the previous gank attempt.

You can always argue in favour of a point by looking at the advantages, but set/glyph/bar slots are limited resources. If you spread too thin and don't reach critical mass, a theoretically decent build can still perform poorly.
I am not for or against any changes, I genuinely don't care, but personally I find some of the exchanges here laughable. If NBs argue that perma cloak can be a burden on sustain then people don't take them seriously and say it is already happening, but if someone proposes a cloak nerf with some concessions on sustain people go "imagine if it was sustainable, so brutal".

According to people on the forums NBs have all 15 NB abilities + vigour slotted at all times, run 5-6 full proc sets and reach full pen, 7k WD and are capped with resistances, while sitting at 40 k HP.

Vaqual

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Come now, we aren't in the era of 'Nightblades have to rely on Caluurion's Legacy to be viable' period. That era is over. They deal that Caluurion damage with an ability that hits players harder than all ults at this point.

Yeah I agree with that. Then the obvious fix would be to adjust that ability and not every other thing in the kit. Having to include that one ability on every build is giga lame.

Galeriano

OBJnoob wrote: »

The good NBs I see don't crutch on cloak like they used to anyway. I think that's the main disagreement between us.

Like you're looking for a solution to the evasive, extra glass cannon, ganker bomber NBs.

I'm looking for a solution to the NBs that take a beating from 3 decent players and then ganks your face in plain sight.

The NBs you're talking about can already be handled with the incredible range on detect pots, can they not? Or just a well timed 3-shot.

The NBs I'm talking about really only cloak to guarantee a crit, to have major savagery on their bar, to activate vampire spell damage, and under your proposed circumstances I guess to maintain their mitigation buff/debuff.

Off the top of my head, these are the buffs/debuffs in a NB's class kit: Major evasion, major berserk, major cowardice, minor cowardice, minor courage, minor vulnerability, major fracture (whatever it's called these days,) minor protection (if you sacrifice invis,) major expedition, minor expedition, major defile (if you sacrifice 20% damage done,) major resolve, major brutality, minor savagery... Okay I think I'm out. No wait, Minor Mending.

Now for the unnamed benefits, depending on which skills and morphs they choose of course. Extra 20% damage, roll dodge cost reduction stacking up to 100%, invisibility, healing full every time they kill someone, teleportation, unparalleled synergy with vampire, the hardest hitting ability on the game, and guaranteed crits.

I just don't see why they need anything else ever, to be honest. If you want to nerf them then nerf them. They don't need compensation for it.

Good players are capable to surviuve more than average player on any class not just on nightblade so I don't get that argument.

Major savagery is granted passively You don't need to use cloak for that. As for vampire buff it should not work with cloak at all imo. It's kinda silly nightblade get this adventage over every other class in the game.

Yes I get it, nightblade have lots of minor/major buffs and debuffs. Doesn't mean he cannot get one more in exchange for loosing bit of strenght from something that is still way better than that buff itself.

They kinda need that compensation. Contrary to what many people belives nightblade is not extra tanky. Good players make it look tanky because they are good players.

OBJnoob

Galeriano wrote: »

Good players are capable to surviuve more than average player on any class not just on nightblade so I don't get that argument.

Major savagery is granted passively You don't need to use cloak for that. As for vampire buff it should not work with cloak at all imo. It's kinda silly nightblade get this adventage over every other class in the game.

Yes I get it, nightblade have lots of minor/major buffs and debuffs. Doesn't mean he cannot get one more in exchange for loosing bit of strenght from something that is still way better than that buff itself.

They kinda need that compensation. Contrary to what many people belives nightblade is not extra tanky. Good players make it look tanky because they are good players.

You're right, but not necessarily.

Good players make it look tanky but it's not. If you build for damage because you're a very good player then nothing about being a NB will make you tanky. You will roll when you're supposed to, block when you're supposed to, and benefit from astronomical healing because you're built for damage. And this will make you look tanky when you're not. And you'll be an excellent dueler like this.

Or you can realize that 30% added damage done, 600 weapon damage, guaranteed crits, and all the nice crit and pen passives that NB has is worth far more than any 5-piece you could wear, and so you wear a defensive set instead. You don't have quite as much damage as the first example, but killing people is still fairly easy, and your healing is still very good. And you'll be an excellent 1vXer like this. Because you are tanky.

Your proposed change is basically gonna make the excellent dueler an excellent Xer, because with semi-permanent uptime on major protection they won't even need a defensive set LOL.

Vaqual

OBJnoob wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Good players are capable to surviuve more than average player on any class not just on nightblade so I don't get that argument.

Major savagery is granted passively You don't need to use cloak for that. As for vampire buff it should not work with cloak at all imo. It's kinda silly nightblade get this adventage over every other class in the game.

Yes I get it, nightblade have lots of minor/major buffs and debuffs. Doesn't mean he cannot get one more in exchange for loosing bit of strenght from something that is still way better than that buff itself.

They kinda need that compensation. Contrary to what many people belives nightblade is not extra tanky. Good players make it look tanky because they are good players.

You're right, but not necessarily.

Good players make it look tanky but it's not. If you build for damage because you're a very good player then nothing about being a NB will make you tanky. You will roll when you're supposed to, block when you're supposed to, and benefit from astronomical healing because you're built for damage. And this will make you look tanky when you're not. And you'll be an excellent dueler like this.

Or you can realize that 30% added damage done, 600 weapon damage, guaranteed crits, and all the nice crit and pen passives that NB has is worth far more than any 5-piece you could wear, and so you wear a defensive set instead. You don't have quite as much damage as the first example, but killing people is still fairly easy, and your healing is still very good. And you'll be an excellent 1vXer like this. Because you are tanky.

Your proposed change is basically gonna make the excellent dueler an excellent Xer, because with semi-permanent uptime on major protection they won't even need a defensive set LOL.

But doesn't every class have access passive benefits that are worth several 5-piece bonuses, the vampire interaction excluded? They are not all damage focused, but following the same logic that can be balanced by choosing appropriate sets. Don't get me wrong, I know the balance between classes is not ideal, but if you factor sustain/heal/damage/uptimes/micro-intensity/utility things are not all that bad. Listing a sum of buffs and passives like this reads a bit as if it was a flat advantage over other classes, and that looks a bit disingenuous. And of course every class can roll and block.
I know you are a good and reflected guy and they can really do with that ability whatever they want, but your argument here seems a bit all over the place.

OBJnoob

I don't see how my argument is all over the place. NB is incredibly strong right now and therefore don't need any buffs. That's the argument. Everything else is just supporting details.

Yes, I suppose other classes also have cool and unique things that make them strong in the right hands. The fact still remains that NBs are strongER.

If people just understood where classes stand against each other then I wouldn't have to tire you with details. Because nobody would ever suggest they should have major protection when they aren't invisible.

How would you have liked it if when they made it so DKs can't generate ulti while in Corrosive they gave them Major Protection when it was down?

IZZEFlameLash

Vaqual wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Come now, we aren't in the era of 'Nightblades have to rely on Caluurion's Legacy to be viable' period. That era is over. They deal that Caluurion damage with an ability that hits players harder than all ults at this point.

Yeah I agree with that. Then the obvious fix would be to adjust that ability and not every other thing in the kit. Having to include that one ability on every build is giga lame.

Well... in the PvP section of the forums, you can see a lot of opposition to the idea of 'assassin' archetype getting damage nerf. And in general, NB mains' consensus seems to be that they don't want damage nerf to Incap + Merciless Resolve with damage boost passive from Concealed.

Galeriano

What is really silly for me is that ZoS is so strict about their harassing policy that they recognize even tbagging which is basically just an type of emote in every other game as a form of harassment yet nightblade the way it's designed in ESO is basically a class with harassment playstyle build into it, and ZoS is completly fine with that.

Vaqual

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Well... in the PvP section of the forums, you can see a lot of opposition to the idea of 'assassin' archetype getting damage nerf. And in general, NB mains' consensus seems to be that they don't want damage nerf to Incap + Merciless Resolve with damage boost passive from Concealed.

That is what I think is so annoying about Merciless, that somehow everyone seems to think there can't be an "assassin" playstyle without this specific overtuned ability. It is definitively possible to maintain such a playstyle without this ability, as countless youtube gank montages have shown.

OBJnoob wrote: »

How would you have liked it if when they made it so DKs can't generate ulti while in Corrosive they gave them Major Protection when it was down?

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, but I am not invested in the major protection change or any other alteration to cloak. I am not arguing for or against anything here. All I said was that it doesn't seem sufficient to me to list a cherry picked selection of potentially available bonuses as an argument against changes for another ability, since you could justify nerfing any ability by holding the sum of available power against it. Of course, an overall power balance has to be achieved and class context matters if there are synergistic effects. It is not necessary to spell out every detail. I also do not think NB needs a net buff.
The power imbalance comes mostly from a select few abilities that should be looked at, the value of actual passives itself is overall very much comparable to what other classes have.
NBs are strong in PvP now, no question. But they were in a tough spot not so long ago. All I would ask for is, that if a nerf has to come, that it is done with an appropriate measure of precision. Power needs to be cut back on the overperforming aspects, without hitting playstyles that already choose not to incorporate the strongest abilities.
The goal should always be to keep every ability on a level where it is worth slotting in some form. In the proposed scenario the use of the ability was heavily restricted and even if the class would not need any form of buff, it is still important not to debilitate (little pun) any skill to the point where it becomes worthless. That has sadly happened often when skills were simply numerically adjusted, where the functionality was maintained, but the skills ended up being non-competitive. With utility skills like cloak this is probably even harder to quantify.

And of course I do not think that change to corrosive, as in your hypothetical example, would have made sense. I do not wish for any class to be overpowered.

FoJul

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

To be fair though, in almost all MMO's the stealth class always has been SSS tier for PvP. I can't think of one MMO where the stealth class or classes aren't the strongest in the game.

Not saying they should stay the strongest, but if you look at the trends for ESO since it's release. Either mag or stam nightblade has always been the number 1 pvp class, because of it's insanely high mobility/damage/and single target healing.

You nerf any aspect of Nightblade too hard and half of the player base is gone. I'm pretty sure Nightblade is the #1 class played in ESO. Don't quote me, cause I could be wrong.

Galeriano

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

To be fair though, in almost all MMO's the stealth class always has been SSS tier for PvP. I can't think of one MMO where the stealth class or classes aren't the strongest in the game.

Not saying they should stay the strongest, but if you look at the trends for ESO since it's release. Either mag or stam nightblade has always been the number 1 pvp class, because of it's insanely high mobility/damage/and single target healing.

You nerf any aspect of Nightblade too hard and half of the player base is gone. I'm pretty sure Nightblade is the #1 class played in ESO. Don't quote me, cause I could be wrong.

Star Wars The Old Republic is the good example where stealth classes aren't SSS tier. They are strong there but reasonably strong. What SWTOR does and ESO doesn't is giving stealth classes drawbacks to their stealth abilities.

I woudln't say nightblade overall is top dog either it's just one type of playstyle that is extremly disruptive in specific scenarios. It's only recently when they recived that high levels of healing and many other buffs while cloak for some reson remained untouched and lately even got a strong buff.

If I remember correctly the most played class according to ZoS's old data was sorc and I highly doubt that drawbacks on cloak would cause massive exodus of players. Only small minotrity of playerbase actively engages in PvP and in PvE nerfs to cloak wouldn't be that impactfull.

boi_anachronism_

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

To be fair though, in almost all MMO's the stealth class always has been SSS tier for PvP. I can't think of one MMO where the stealth class or classes aren't the strongest in the game.

Not saying they should stay the strongest, but if you look at the trends for ESO since it's release. Either mag or stam nightblade has always been the number 1 pvp class, because of it's insanely high mobility/damage/and single target healing.

You nerf any aspect of Nightblade too hard and half of the player base is gone. I'm pretty sure Nightblade is the #1 class played in ESO. Don't quote me, cause I could be wrong.

Star Wars The Old Republic is the good example where stealth classes aren't SSS tier. They are strong there but reasonably strong. What SWTOR does and ESO doesn't is giving stealth classes drawbacks to their stealth abilities.

I woudln't say nightblade overall is top dog either it's just one type of playstyle that is extremly disruptive in specific scenarios. It's only recently when they recived that high levels of healing and many other buffs while cloak for some reson remained untouched and lately even got a strong buff.

If I remember correctly the most played class according to ZoS's old data was sorc and I highly doubt that drawbacks on cloak would cause massive exodus of players. Only small minotrity of playerbase actively engages in PvP and in PvE nerfs to cloak wouldn't be that impactfull.

I mean nb went through serious nerfs in Elsweyr. People adapted but it hurt blades in pve a lot because of the kind of nerfs. Cloak was buffed specifically because it wasnt useful in pve at all without it. They actually said that in the patch notes if im not mistaken.

GooGa592

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

To be fair though, in almost all MMO's the stealth class always has been SSS tier for PvP. I can't think of one MMO where the stealth class or classes aren't the strongest in the game.

Not saying they should stay the strongest, but if you look at the trends for ESO since it's release. Either mag or stam nightblade has always been the number 1 pvp class, because of it's insanely high mobility/damage/and single target healing.

You nerf any aspect of Nightblade too hard and half of the player base is gone. I'm pretty sure Nightblade is the #1 class played in ESO. Don't quote me, cause I could be wrong.

Sounds like proof NB's are over performing and ZOS needs to rework the ability to fight while invisible. NB's have always been out of balance in PvP. They should have named the class "Cloakblade".

Galeriano

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

To be fair though, in almost all MMO's the stealth class always has been SSS tier for PvP. I can't think of one MMO where the stealth class or classes aren't the strongest in the game.

Not saying they should stay the strongest, but if you look at the trends for ESO since it's release. Either mag or stam nightblade has always been the number 1 pvp class, because of it's insanely high mobility/damage/and single target healing.

You nerf any aspect of Nightblade too hard and half of the player base is gone. I'm pretty sure Nightblade is the #1 class played in ESO. Don't quote me, cause I could be wrong.

Star Wars The Old Republic is the good example where stealth classes aren't SSS tier. They are strong there but reasonably strong. What SWTOR does and ESO doesn't is giving stealth classes drawbacks to their stealth abilities.

I woudln't say nightblade overall is top dog either it's just one type of playstyle that is extremly disruptive in specific scenarios. It's only recently when they recived that high levels of healing and many other buffs while cloak for some reson remained untouched and lately even got a strong buff.

If I remember correctly the most played class according to ZoS's old data was sorc and I highly doubt that drawbacks on cloak would cause massive exodus of players. Only small minotrity of playerbase actively engages in PvP and in PvE nerfs to cloak wouldn't be that impactfull.

I mean nb went through serious nerfs in Elsweyr. People adapted but it hurt blades in pve a lot because of the kind of nerfs. Cloak was buffed specifically because it wasnt useful in pve at all without it. They actually said that in the patch notes if im not mistaken.

And then they went through series of buffs that made them stronger than they were before nerfs. What hurt blades in PvE is that game started to favour playstyles that are not nightblade's strenght. Having strong DoTs and passive AoE became the meta and nightblade was always lacking both.

Cloak changes bring almost nothing to PvE but a lot into PvP.

Turtle_Bot

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

To be fair though, in almost all MMO's the stealth class always has been SSS tier for PvP. I can't think of one MMO where the stealth class or classes aren't the strongest in the game.

Not saying they should stay the strongest, but if you look at the trends for ESO since it's release. Either mag or stam nightblade has always been the number 1 pvp class, because of it's insanely high mobility/damage/and single target healing.

You nerf any aspect of Nightblade too hard and half of the player base is gone. I'm pretty sure Nightblade is the #1 class played in ESO. Don't quote me, cause I could be wrong.

Star Wars The Old Republic is the good example where stealth classes aren't SSS tier. They are strong there but reasonably strong. What SWTOR does and ESO doesn't is giving stealth classes drawbacks to their stealth abilities.

I woudln't say nightblade overall is top dog either it's just one type of playstyle that is extremly disruptive in specific scenarios. It's only recently when they recived that high levels of healing and many other buffs while cloak for some reson remained untouched and lately even got a strong buff.

If I remember correctly the most played class according to ZoS's old data was sorc and I highly doubt that drawbacks on cloak would cause massive exodus of players. Only small minotrity of playerbase actively engages in PvP and in PvE nerfs to cloak wouldn't be that impactfull.

Cloak was buffed specifically because it wasnt useful in pve at all without it. They actually said that in the patch notes if im not mistaken.

I mean:
- Encase
- Rune Prison
- Ball of Lightning
- Negate

4 sorcerer abilities off the top of my head that are completely useless in PvE and niche uses in PvP (shout out to encase and rune prison for being useless in BOTH modes), but according to the devs:
"Sorc is fine and doesn't need adjusting".

The buff they gave Cloak last patch is the equivalent of if they gave BoL a strong (vigor strength) self HoT. Sure, it makes it finally do something in PvE, but it completely breaks it for PvP.

If ZOS truly wanted to help PvE-blade via a change to cloak and not just make the class even more OP in PvP, they would have given that buff to cloak a battle spirit clause to not work in PvP zones.

I'm not against blades getting help for PvE where they need it, but it MUST be exclusively for PvE ONLY via conditions like "when battle spirit is not active" and "against monsters only".

FoJul

West93 wrote: »

so why can't power of light/purifying light ever hit 18k+ compared to merciless resolve its not even hitting 10k+ on tanky targets and takes 6 seconds to build up to get most 4-6k tick at best.

meanwhile I am getting zerged by 6+ players and trying to kite some nightblade out of nowhere hits 12k merciless resolve on 32k resistance 3.6k crit resistance build

Where were you a year ago? Templars were hitting those numbers and it was a huge problem. The problem was they had 2 or 3 different combo's, where the only way to counter it is to perfectly time a roll dodge/and block and sometimes that wasn't even enough.

Some builds are still around that allow numbers to get high like it was a year ago. We done lived thru it once, never again.

You can argue that nightblades still can do it, but we all know Zos favors Nightblades. I am a nightblade myself, however I play a swallow soul playstyle. I never get to see those crazy high numbers unfortunately.

The point I'm trying to make here, you have to build into crit damage to get insanely high numbers on nightblade. You can do the same thing on templar and get a crazy output of damage. Crit damage is key. Merciless Resolve for whatever reason won't get adjusted. But its got a travel time/its a projectile so it can be blocked and dodged. With some crit resistance you can knock the damage down. So theres huge counterplay when it come to merciless resolve.

Templar with delayed burst and unblockable stun, was a meta I WILL NOT be a part of ever again. A lot of us are glad it's gone.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

To be fair though, in almost all MMO's the stealth class always has been SSS tier for PvP. I can't think of one MMO where the stealth class or classes aren't the strongest in the game.

Not saying they should stay the strongest, but if you look at the trends for ESO since it's release. Either mag or stam nightblade has always been the number 1 pvp class, because of it's insanely high mobility/damage/and single target healing.

You nerf any aspect of Nightblade too hard and half of the player base is gone. I'm pretty sure Nightblade is the #1 class played in ESO. Don't quote me, cause I could be wrong.

Star Wars The Old Republic is the good example where stealth classes aren't SSS tier. They are strong there but reasonably strong. What SWTOR does and ESO doesn't is giving stealth classes drawbacks to their stealth abilities.

I woudln't say nightblade overall is top dog either it's just one type of playstyle that is extremly disruptive in specific scenarios. It's only recently when they recived that high levels of healing and many other buffs while cloak for some reson remained untouched and lately even got a strong buff.

If I remember correctly the most played class according to ZoS's old data was sorc and I highly doubt that drawbacks on cloak would cause massive exodus of players. Only small minotrity of playerbase actively engages in PvP and in PvE nerfs to cloak wouldn't be that impactfull.

Cloak was buffed specifically because it wasnt useful in pve at all without it. They actually said that in the patch notes if im not mistaken.

I mean:
- Encase
- Rune Prison
- Ball of Lightning
- Negate

4 sorcerer abilities off the top of my head that are completely useless in PvE and niche uses in PvP (shout out to encase and rune prison for being useless in BOTH modes), but according to the devs:
"Sorc is fine and doesn't need adjusting".

The buff they gave Cloak last patch is the equivalent of if they gave BoL a strong (vigor strength) self HoT. Sure, it makes it finally do something in PvE, but it completely breaks it for PvP.

If ZOS truly wanted to help PvE-blade via a change to cloak and not just make the class even more OP in PvP, they would have given that buff to cloak a battle spirit clause to not work in PvP zones.

I'm not against blades getting help for PvE where they need it, but it MUST be exclusively for PvE ONLY via conditions like "when battle spirit is not active" and "against monsters only".

TBF tho, sorcs have 3 burst abilities lol. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Sorc is just one (ONE BAR) burst heal away from being too strong.

boi_anachronism_

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

To be fair though, in almost all MMO's the stealth class always has been SSS tier for PvP. I can't think of one MMO where the stealth class or classes aren't the strongest in the game.

Not saying they should stay the strongest, but if you look at the trends for ESO since it's release. Either mag or stam nightblade has always been the number 1 pvp class, because of it's insanely high mobility/damage/and single target healing.

You nerf any aspect of Nightblade too hard and half of the player base is gone. I'm pretty sure Nightblade is the #1 class played in ESO. Don't quote me, cause I could be wrong.

Star Wars The Old Republic is the good example where stealth classes aren't SSS tier. They are strong there but reasonably strong. What SWTOR does and ESO doesn't is giving stealth classes drawbacks to their stealth abilities.

I woudln't say nightblade overall is top dog either it's just one type of playstyle that is extremly disruptive in specific scenarios. It's only recently when they recived that high levels of healing and many other buffs while cloak for some reson remained untouched and lately even got a strong buff.

If I remember correctly the most played class according to ZoS's old data was sorc and I highly doubt that drawbacks on cloak would cause massive exodus of players. Only small minotrity of playerbase actively engages in PvP and in PvE nerfs to cloak wouldn't be that impactfull.

I mean nb went through serious nerfs in Elsweyr. People adapted but it hurt blades in pve a lot because of the kind of nerfs. Cloak was buffed specifically because it wasnt useful in pve at all without it. They actually said that in the patch notes if im not mistaken.

And then they went through series of buffs that made them stronger than they were before nerfs. What hurt blades in PvE is that game started to favour playstyles that are not nightblade's strenght. Having strong DoTs and passive AoE became the meta and nightblade was always lacking both.

Cloak changes bring almost nothing to PvE but a lot into PvP.

What hurts blades is their lack of consistency with damage because their rotation is very easy to be interrupted and depends almost entirely on burst which is just not great for trash packs. Burst is useful in execute for 12 man. Additionally it is very single target focused which has and is great for pvp but not great for pve since cleave is king generally speaking. They need aoe damage and they dont have it, if you recall when blades started getting buffed dots overall were getting nerfed. U 35. Path got buffed around then but dots were nerfed anyway so they parsed better (in theory although they added a big buff to the dummy at that point so really their was no change) but in content besides pvp they still suffered, what they really needed was a buff to something like sap essence or a meaningful one to path that wasnt dependent on a spammable for proc. During deadlands magblades were in the bin besides their crit group buff. What they did was try to buff mag based blades because they were wildly unbalanced from their stam counterparts but at that point stam was rarely used in my pve as it was. The buffs they got were single target damage and single target has never been great for 12man, hence they are even less balanced for pvp and still not great in pve. Same reason stam sorcs arent played as heavily. Its single target. Parsing and in content are completely different stam sorc is the highest parsing class by a mile but in content atleast at the level im playing, trifectas and such, I rarely see it. This is why blades are s tier in vas2, single target, but generally not used much beyond that with the other exception being portals in vcr but even then most people choose arc over blades now.

boi_anachronism_

On a personal level: i dont know why they added the concealed buff to stealth that was an absolutely terrible move and really unnecessary..

FoJul

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

On a personal level: i dont know why they added the concealed buff to stealth that was an absolutely terrible move and really unnecessary..

They mentioned it before, rather it be in a developer comment on the actual patch notes when it happened. They exclaimed, that almost all the classes were doing 10% more DPS all around or something of that matter so they added a 10% *Unique* buff.

They did nerf it, and make it Major bezerk, cause that Unique 10% stacked with Bezerk, so in PvE Nightblades had an *Overtune*. Especially in PvP.

The fact of the matter is, they could've raised the Tool tip on abilities like Swallow soul/Cripple/Ambush/Twisting path. Basically skills that are DoTs or skills that are unused.

Nightblade is in a wierd spot, where it's strong in PvP, and lacking in PvE. When this happens, Zos has to be really careful.

IZZEFlameLash

FoJul wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

On a personal level: i dont know why they added the concealed buff to stealth that was an absolutely terrible move and really unnecessary..

They mentioned it before, rather it be in a developer comment on the actual patch notes when it happened. They exclaimed, that almost all the classes were doing 10% more DPS all around or something of that matter so they added a 10% *Unique* buff.

They did nerf it, and make it Major bezerk, cause that Unique 10% stacked with Bezerk, so in PvE Nightblades had an *Overtune*. Especially in PvP.

The fact of the matter is, they could've raised the Tool tip on abilities like Swallow soul/Cripple/Ambush/Twisting path. Basically skills that are DoTs or skills that are unused.

Nightblade is in a wierd spot, where it's strong in PvP, and lacking in PvE. When this happens, Zos has to be really careful.

It is only weak in PvE because bosses are basically damage sponges that far exceeds the amount of health any tank in PvP can have.

TechMaybeHic

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

On a personal level: i dont know why they added the concealed buff to stealth that was an absolutely terrible move and really unnecessary..

They mentioned it before, rather it be in a developer comment on the actual patch notes when it happened. They exclaimed, that almost all the classes were doing 10% more DPS all around or something of that matter so they added a 10% *Unique* buff.

They did nerf it, and make it Major bezerk, cause that Unique 10% stacked with Bezerk, so in PvE Nightblades had an *Overtune*. Especially in PvP.

The fact of the matter is, they could've raised the Tool tip on abilities like Swallow soul/Cripple/Ambush/Twisting path. Basically skills that are DoTs or skills that are unused.

Nightblade is in a wierd spot, where it's strong in PvP, and lacking in PvE. When this happens, Zos has to be really careful.

It is only weak in PvE because bosses are basically damage sponges that far exceeds the amount of health any tank in PvP can have.

That's never going to change.

IZZEFlameLash

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

On a personal level: i dont know why they added the concealed buff to stealth that was an absolutely terrible move and really unnecessary..

They mentioned it before, rather it be in a developer comment on the actual patch notes when it happened. They exclaimed, that almost all the classes were doing 10% more DPS all around or something of that matter so they added a 10% *Unique* buff.

They did nerf it, and make it Major bezerk, cause that Unique 10% stacked with Bezerk, so in PvE Nightblades had an *Overtune*. Especially in PvP.

The fact of the matter is, they could've raised the Tool tip on abilities like Swallow soul/Cripple/Ambush/Twisting path. Basically skills that are DoTs or skills that are unused.

Nightblade is in a wierd spot, where it's strong in PvP, and lacking in PvE. When this happens, Zos has to be really careful.

It is only weak in PvE because bosses are basically damage sponges that far exceeds the amount of health any tank in PvP can have.

That's never going to change.

It shouldn't. Because if NB was to get strong DoTs in their kit, imagine what they can do in PvP