nightblades out of control in pvp

IncultaWolf

reazea wrote: »

NB's now have huge burst damage combined with huge burst heal. It's just bad design IMO. Either the heal or the damage needs a nerf. And there should not be a way to stay cloaked while in combat. If a player initiates a fight, they should have to fight, not hit cloak and keep fighting while invisible.

I'm honestly surprised they never put a ramping cost on shadowy disguise. They can't nerf nightblade because it will hurt them in pve, which they're already lacking in

boi_anachronism_

IncultaWolf wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

NB's now have huge burst damage combined with huge burst heal. It's just bad design IMO. Either the heal or the damage needs a nerf. And there should not be a way to stay cloaked while in combat. If a player initiates a fight, they should have to fight, not hit cloak and keep fighting while invisible.

I'm honestly surprised they never put a ramping cost on shadowy disguise. They can't nerf nightblade because it will hurt them in pve, which they're already lacking in

We dont use shadowy disguise in pve. Nerf it. Seriously i dont get it..

blktauna

Sneezing pulls you out of Cloak, it is barely useful at this point.
What kind of resists do you have that you are getting slapped like that.

I mean I get that on my low resist toon but my tankier ones don't get slapped like that.

And speak for yourself you don't use cloak in pve. I use it far more in pve than pvp.

boi_anachronism_

blktauna wrote: »

Sneezing pulls you out of Cloak, it is barely useful at this point.
What kind of resists do you have that you are getting slapped like that.

I mean I get that on my low resist toon but my tankier ones don't get slapped like that.

And speak for yourself you don't use cloak in pve. I use it far more in pve than pvp.

For what exactly? Overland? A ramping cost wouldnt effect that. Ive used it in overland myself. No one uses it in trials, dungeons or arenas. If its barely useful to you then you dont know how to use it or havent been in cyrodiil in a few weeks. I was there. Tonight. Convince the blade ballgroup outside bloodmayne tonight that its not useful. My main is a blade. I dont use him for pvp anymore really but I have thousands of hours logged on that class... Its useful.

Panderbander

Eh, if you want to skip trash just go stage 4 vamp and sprint invis through it. I'd be on board with cloak having a ramping cost.

Galeriano

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

Right but how DO you actually balance that? I mean im in favor of a ramping cost for disguise but beyond that, well, idk. Its one of the few truly class unique skills. I dont see them getting rid of it but what do you actually do with it beyond what i mentioned. Side point: the fact that they made the concealed operate coming out of stealth was a bad call tbh. Im saying this as a nb main (althought i dont pvp with him at all)

Pretty simple. After dealing direct dmg You cannot enter invisibility for X seconds. For that period of time cloak can be turned into something else like dmg reduction buff for example major protection or some debuff on enemy like major maim or even some unique dmg buff which could help nb in PvE. They could even go as far as supressing Your DoTs on enemy while You are in cloak although that is not necessity. Ramping cost on cloak would be actually too much of a nerf.

OBJnoob

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

Right but how DO you actually balance that? I mean im in favor of a ramping cost for disguise but beyond that, well, idk. Its one of the few truly class unique skills. I dont see them getting rid of it but what do you actually do with it beyond what i mentioned. Side point: the fact that they made the concealed operate coming out of stealth was a bad call tbh. Im saying this as a nb main (althought i dont pvp with him at all)

Pretty simple. After dealing direct dmg You cannot enter invisibility for X seconds. For that period of time cloak can be turned into something else like dmg reduction buff for example major protection or some debuff on enemy like major maim or even some unique dmg buff which could help nb in PvE. They could even go as far as supressing Your DoTs on enemy while You are in cloak although that is not necessity. Ramping cost on cloak would be actually too much of a nerf.

Hard no to giving them major protection or major maim. Eesh.

boi_anachronism_

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

Right but how DO you actually balance that? I mean im in favor of a ramping cost for disguise but beyond that, well, idk. Its one of the few truly class unique skills. I dont see them getting rid of it but what do you actually do with it beyond what i mentioned. Side point: the fact that they made the concealed operate coming out of stealth was a bad call tbh. Im saying this as a nb main (althought i dont pvp with him at all)

Pretty simple. After dealing direct dmg You cannot enter invisibility for X seconds. For that period of time cloak can be turned into something else like dmg reduction buff for example major protection or some debuff on enemy like major maim or even some unique dmg buff which could help nb in PvE. They could even go as far as supressing Your DoTs on enemy while You are in cloak although that is not necessity. Ramping cost on cloak would be actually too much of a nerf.

Yeah know i dont actually hate that. Its a solid idea but in that case i think they might have to extend the duration of cloak by a second or 2.

Bashev

Devs gave NBs everything. They were crying how they had no selfheal while the other classes had so they gave it to them.

Now is time for the other classes to cry why they do not have NBs burst and the best solution will be to make grim focus proc a DoT. That will even help them in PvE while tone them down in PvP.

RoxyPhoenix

Sorcs dont have anymore tears left and necros eyes dried and popped out already.

Bashev

RoxyPhoenix wrote: »

Sorcs dont have anymore tears left and necros eyes dried and popped out already.

Templars are not better either. The jabs is passively weaker now with some random minor evasion and many players use major evasion which reduce them combined with 28%.

That is why all templars use Javelin plus beam.

IZZEFlameLash

reazea wrote: »

NB's now have huge burst damage combined with huge burst heal. It's just bad design IMO. Either the heal or the damage needs a nerf. And there should not be a way to stay cloaked while in combat. If a player initiates a fight, they should have to fight, not hit cloak and keep fighting while invisible.

Boy, the amount of time in Cyro watching NB going near 0 health to full with just Offering heal... yeah, bowblades die easy enough if they are one of those light attacks only challenge runner. But then, those types are easy prey for any other classes. Have you seen their DKs? Falls apart just as easy. Either give back classes their nerfed damage/class mechanics because those bow LA-enjoyers cried for nerf or take away their super amazing burst heal if you want their damage to be high.

But hey, accorrding to those NB Legolas RPers, nerf Sorcs and DKs

birdik

Dks cough cough...

Galeriano

birdik wrote: »

Dks cough cough...

Ah the good old classic argument of "something else is bad so everything goes"

ecru

I don't have an opinion on NB balance in general, but I'd just like to point out that balancing a specific ability like this in pvp would be a very simple task if ZOS were to do the sensible thing and adjust individual abilities in pvp, rather than sweeping adjustments that affect both pve and pvp. Their refusal to approach balance in this way, like every other development team has done in every other mmo that has ever existed, is probably the reason this won't be addressed for awhile, if ever. And if it is addressed, they'll have to rework NB entirely, since nerfing just one ability in both pve and pvp has too many balance implications, and would require every other ability to be adjusted to compensate. Maybe a developer will read this and finally come to their senses about individual adjustments in pvp, and how it can save them the headache of an entire skill line rework when just one ability is out of step in pvp. Probably won't make any difference though.

maboleth

Mayrael wrote: »

silentxthreat wrote: »

every nightblade stacks crit damage. with rally cry up 6 inpen they still crit for 18k+ with a non ult skill merc bow. they made it very easy to get stacks. either buff inpen, nerf crit damage or nerf nightblade... atm if you only pvp in this game there is zero reason to play if you are not a nightblade. a lot of other games are looking good right now

Can I have your stuff?

No no, you spelled it wrong.

Can I haZ your stuff? You need to pay attention to linguistics, it's crucial.

Turtle_Bot

ecru wrote: »

I don't have an opinion on NB balance in general, but I'd just like to point out that balancing a specific ability like this in pvp would be a very simple task if ZOS were to do the sensible thing and adjust individual abilities in pvp, rather than sweeping adjustments that affect both pve and pvp. Their refusal to approach balance in this way, like every other development team has done in every other mmo that has ever existed, is probably the reason this won't be addressed for awhile, if ever. And if it is addressed, they'll have to rework NB entirely, since nerfing just one ability in both pve and pvp has too many balance implications, and would require every other ability to be adjusted to compensate. Maybe a developer will read this and finally come to their senses about individual adjustments in pvp, and how it can save them the headache of an entire skill line rework when just one ability is out of step in pvp. Probably won't make any difference though.

Utilizing battle spirit (or the damage done against monsters clause) really is the best and easiest solution to the NB balance issues.

3 things that would easily buff NB for PvE while keeping the "assassin" theme without affecting PvP at all:

1. To fix the whole concealed/surprise issues, all they had to do was add the following to the base ability:
Casting this ability in combat increases your damage done against monsters by 10%.

This way both stam and mag blade get to keep this unique stacking 10% bonus for PvE, while for PvP concealed gets berserk and expedition and surprise gets the guaranteed crit.

2. Cripple could have been buffed to include:
Increase your damage done with NB abilities against monsters afflicted by this ability by 5%.

This gives another NB class DoT to use that also buffs NB damage in PvE making it worth considering over something like barbed trap due to the additional NB class passives they would get from slotting this.

3. Base morph of Power extraction could have:
this ability increases your damage done with NB abilities against monsters hit by this ability by 10% for 7-10 seconds.

This would give NB an AoE spammable that would be much closer to steel tornado while also buffing the other NB abilities for AoE situations.

These 3 simple changes alone would give NB an additional up to 25% buff to damage for PvE with a strong cleave option while having literally zero impact on PvP.

Another option for cloak that would have been much better to give it some use outside of PvP/stealth situations than giving major prophecy/savagery on both bars for being slotted on either bar would have been:

While slotted on either bar, increases damage done and critical chance against monsters by 5%. If this ability is cast while in combat increases the damage done to monsters by your NB abilities by 10% for 5 seconds.

This way they could have gotten a passive 5% damage done and crit chance against monsters for having cloak slotted and if they use a GCD to cast cloak, they get an additional 10% damage done against monsters and it wouldn't have affected PvP at all, unlike the direction they chose to go where it just gives major prophecy/savagery everywhere. Oh, this would also give NB the additional damage from vamp passive as well, so its +15% damage done, +5% crit chance and + 300 weapon/spell damage for 5 seconds from casting cloak in PvE situations, well worth 1 GCD for the majority of situations.

StaticWave

NB healing isn't bad. People who say NB healing is bad just don't build correctly or don't play defense.

Here is a clip of me in full damage with 2 Blood Thirsty trying to kill a NB with Cloak at low HP and failed. Notice how he block heals and then cloaks after:

https://youtu.be/rjTU-YiMyBg

ricklaverd

silentxthreat wrote: »

every nightblade stacks crit damage. with rally cry up 6 inpen they still crit for 18k+ with a non ult skill merc bow. they made it very easy to get stacks. either buff inpen, nerf crit damage or nerf nightblade... atm if you only pvp in this game there is zero reason to play if you are not a nightblade. a lot of other games are looking good right now

Over reacting much, Arcanists have insane damage, DK and wardens are still very strong. Its not like 1 glass canon NB will gank a whole zerg. They buffed detect pots and that was a big nerf towards the cloak blades. That being said my snipe hits like spectral arrow. No continuous , no sated fury With that set up Im floor dps .. literally on the floor lol

Zabagad

ricklaverd wrote: »

That being said my snipe hits like spectral arrow.

Screenshot of the spectral arrow is missing

I'm pretty sure it is > 35K or even more ~40K in the same setup.

gronoxvx

Whole lot of dk mains in this thread.

Theignson

Let's not forget that that 20k spectral bow heals the NB for 10k, lol. That plus healthy offering and they are super tanky. The spectral bow is just ridiculously strong for a non ulti, low cost ability.

On the flip side, the 43.5 meter detect pots really hurt NB, if you have a "non professional" NB trying to cloak away you can destroy them now with these detect pots.

I play all classes in PvP. Right now, DK, Necro, arcanist, NB templar and warden are all tanky, with strong heals, but can also do damage .

I think currently Sorc is the most challenging to play because of poor heals. My stam sorc hits hard but has no burst heal so dies more often.

Bushido2513

ricklaverd wrote: »

silentxthreat wrote: »

every nightblade stacks crit damage. with rally cry up 6 inpen they still crit for 18k+ with a non ult skill merc bow. they made it very easy to get stacks. either buff inpen, nerf crit damage or nerf nightblade... atm if you only pvp in this game there is zero reason to play if you are not a nightblade. a lot of other games are looking good right now

Over reacting much, Arcanists have insane damage, DK and wardens are still very strong. Its not like 1 glass canon NB will gank a whole zerg. They buffed detect pots and that was a big nerf towards the cloak blades. That being said my snipe hits like spectral arrow. No continuous , no sated fury With that set up Im floor dps .. literally on the floor lol

I think the problems are situations where it's not one NB or that NB is so common to see now because of the ease of access to damage, mitigation, stealth, etc. Dk is similar though I have yet to be hit really hard by an Arcanist.

It can definitely be discouraging when it comes to wanting to see a more balanced game or even for someone that mains one of the more underpowered classes.

IZZEFlameLash

Bashev wrote: »

Devs gave NBs everything. They were crying how they had no selfheal while the other classes had so they gave it to them.

Now is time for the other classes to cry why they do not have NBs burst and the best solution will be to make grim focus proc a DoT. That will even help them in PvE while tone them down in PvP.

Ah, good ole days of NBs having group freakout when ZOS dared to nerf the class with a lot softer hands than they do with other classes. They probably never realize that they always got away with less, still very playable level of nerfs compared to other classes' nerf history. DK became no-go class post-Morrowind basically even though their downhill was already started on IC release. Then they buffed it to be 'meta' class. But it still is nowhere near where it used to be and yet it is still called OP, so... that must mean other classes are absolutely in the gutters still. *cough* Templar and non-meta set running Sorcs *cough*

StaticWave wrote: »

NB healing isn't bad. People who say NB healing is bad just don't build correctly or don't play defense.

Here is a clip of me in full damage with 2 Blood Thirsty trying to kill a NB with Cloak at low HP and failed. Notice how he block heals and then cloaks after:

https://youtu.be/rjTU-YiMyBg

Clearly, NB heals are too weak! Look how DoT ate up that otherwise fat heal to be like that. ZOS plz buff NB heal to be 10k non crit tyvm. /s

Galeriano

gronoxvx wrote: »

Whole lot of dk mains in this thread.

DK is actually one of the classes least impacted by the nightblades. Usually nightblades are scared the most to engage fights with DKs because they can survive their gank attempt and retaliate.

Galeriano

OBJnoob wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

Right but how DO you actually balance that? I mean im in favor of a ramping cost for disguise but beyond that, well, idk. Its one of the few truly class unique skills. I dont see them getting rid of it but what do you actually do with it beyond what i mentioned. Side point: the fact that they made the concealed operate coming out of stealth was a bad call tbh. Im saying this as a nb main (althought i dont pvp with him at all)

Pretty simple. After dealing direct dmg You cannot enter invisibility for X seconds. For that period of time cloak can be turned into something else like dmg reduction buff for example major protection or some debuff on enemy like major maim or even some unique dmg buff which could help nb in PvE. They could even go as far as supressing Your DoTs on enemy while You are in cloak although that is not necessity. Ramping cost on cloak would be actually too much of a nerf.

Hard no to giving them major protection or major maim. Eesh.

Why though? We are talking about giving them one of the said buffs while they cannot use cloak which sounds pretty fair. it would be still way less defense than cloak offers because cloaked nb have basically 100% dmg reduction so it really wouldn;t be that bad to deal 90% of the dmg instead of 0.

OBJnoob

Galeriano wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

Right but how DO you actually balance that? I mean im in favor of a ramping cost for disguise but beyond that, well, idk. Its one of the few truly class unique skills. I dont see them getting rid of it but what do you actually do with it beyond what i mentioned. Side point: the fact that they made the concealed operate coming out of stealth was a bad call tbh. Im saying this as a nb main (althought i dont pvp with him at all)

Pretty simple. After dealing direct dmg You cannot enter invisibility for X seconds. For that period of time cloak can be turned into something else like dmg reduction buff for example major protection or some debuff on enemy like major maim or even some unique dmg buff which could help nb in PvE. They could even go as far as supressing Your DoTs on enemy while You are in cloak although that is not necessity. Ramping cost on cloak would be actually too much of a nerf.

Hard no to giving them major protection or major maim. Eesh.

Why though? We are talking about giving them one of the said buffs while they cannot use cloak which sounds pretty fair. it would be still way less defense than cloak offers because cloaked nb have basically 100% dmg reduction so it really wouldn;t be that bad to deal 90% of the dmg instead of 0.

You know who else can't use cloak? Everybody.

Acting like Cloak is the only way to survive on a NB is very outdated thinking. They can block and heal and roll just like the rest of us.

NBs already have access to more in-class buffs and debuffs than anyone else, don't they? The last thing we need is for the best burst class to be able to stack major cowardice, minor cowardice, and major maim on someone. Major protection wouldn't be much better. I mean let's just consolidate it all into passives, shall we? NBs will do 35% more damage to you. And you'll do 35% less to them... Because they can't just invis and run away.

That being said, I'm not supporting trying to give cloak a ramping cost anyway. There's nothing wrong with cloak.

Anyway, just my opinion, but for PvP they're too strong. And your proposed change would be a buff. I'm against buffing NBs. I am in favor of reworking the class to be better at PvE and worse at PvP.

Quethrosar

i am sick of whoever jumps on you and stuns you and freezes you in place and breaking free takes too long and you die.

Galeriano

OBJnoob wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve, nerf cause pvp, buff cause pve..... into infinity... Skills need to be balanced with battle spirit. Blade is the absolute most glaring example. Every time it gets nerfed in pvp its guttered for pve. Its already bad in 12 man.

That's because ZoS refuses to balance stealth playstyle. Stealth playstyle is a major issue with nb in PvP and not an issue at all in PvE yet when ZoS tries to balance nb in PvP they are doing everything to not touch core of the issue which in return causes more issues.

Right but how DO you actually balance that? I mean im in favor of a ramping cost for disguise but beyond that, well, idk. Its one of the few truly class unique skills. I dont see them getting rid of it but what do you actually do with it beyond what i mentioned. Side point: the fact that they made the concealed operate coming out of stealth was a bad call tbh. Im saying this as a nb main (althought i dont pvp with him at all)

Pretty simple. After dealing direct dmg You cannot enter invisibility for X seconds. For that period of time cloak can be turned into something else like dmg reduction buff for example major protection or some debuff on enemy like major maim or even some unique dmg buff which could help nb in PvE. They could even go as far as supressing Your DoTs on enemy while You are in cloak although that is not necessity. Ramping cost on cloak would be actually too much of a nerf.

Hard no to giving them major protection or major maim. Eesh.

Why though? We are talking about giving them one of the said buffs while they cannot use cloak which sounds pretty fair. it would be still way less defense than cloak offers because cloaked nb have basically 100% dmg reduction so it really wouldn;t be that bad to deal 90% of the dmg instead of 0.

You know who else can't use cloak? Everybody.

Acting like Cloak is the only way to survive on a NB is very outdated thinking. They can block and heal and roll just like the rest of us.

NBs already have access to more in-class buffs and debuffs than anyone else, don't they? The last thing we need is for the best burst class to be able to stack major cowardice, minor cowardice, and major maim on someone. Major protection wouldn't be much better. I mean let's just consolidate it all into passives, shall we? NBs will do 35% more damage to you. And you'll do 35% less to them... Because they can't just invis and run away.

That being said, I'm not supporting trying to give cloak a ramping cost anyway. There's nothing wrong with cloak.

Anyway, just my opinion, but for PvP they're too strong. And your proposed change would be a buff. I'm against buffing NBs. I am in favor of reworking the class to be better at PvE and worse at PvP.

You are looking too much on what nightblade would get and not seeing what would be lost. Alternatively ZoS could also add a debuff that invisibility part of cloak is disabled for X seconds after doing roll dodge to prevent nightblades for getting one of the most unfair adventages over other classes which is being able to reset dodge cost penatly safely in cloak. This game desperately needs some form of drawback added to cloak and adding a bit of compensation to nightblades in return is better than keeping the things the way they are.

DrNukenstein

I have the solution. I have thought it and it is brilliant.

When a nightblade breaks cloak in combat (or their cloak gets broken), they get the revealed debuff for 5 seconds. That's 5 seconds that cloak cannot be crutched on in combat every time they use cloak offensively or defensively.

Then, make cloak a toggle. Make it work like sneak, but cost magicka per second and provide invisibility.

There we go, a significant in combat limitation and out of combat quality of life buff. Everyone wins.