Dark Exchange balancing vs other class skills.

Duke_Falcon

I've been working on playing Mag Sorc build other than just stacking Mag Resource for a couple years now. Recent changes as of Summer 2023 have been helpful to the class, well done ZoS. One last thing needs updated. Dark Exchange, the skill in its current variation just kills you with the delayed cast time/dodge roll cancel, block cancel and bar swap cancel of the skills effect. I understand the delayed cast time is to prevent perma-blocking and perma-dodge roll abuse. However the unintended consequence of the cast time with so many ways to cancel the skills effect is its not balanced against other classes similar skills because of how the skill cancels its cast out. You are literally forced to use the heal only when you don't actually need to be healed at all which is silly.

Dodge Roll Dark Exchange prevents the heal when you need it most and you die.
Block Casting the Heal when you need it most stops it and you die.
Healing then swapping back to your Offensive Bar stops it and you die because your back on your offensive/squishier bar and still low HP, because you didn't get the heal, so you die.
Making it the first skill in your heal rotation makes it interruptible and you die.
Lastly making it the first cast in your heal rotation without a block or dodge roll and just standing there slowly casting it, gives the greater speed of incoming damage (ie an execute skill) the edge to make you die.

I'd like to propose removing the burst mag/stam resource return in exchange for an over time only resource return, and no cast time. Leave the burst heal and balance it with other classes burst heals. I believe this last change would balance Sorc with other classes with out giving it an edge over them.

DrNukenstein

I would argue that dark deal is an example of how a burst heal should work.

It should be dangerous to use, and thus rewarding to pull off. If everyone had to use good judgement when they heal, then healing and stalemates wouldn't be as much of an issue in pvp and healers would be more valuable in pve

Then look at the benefits aside from just healing. It is a full blown buff skill that also gives sustain. That's a great design for how self healing could work for every class.

In a system where self burst healing is used sparingly and provides buffs, then the real drawback is the lack of scaling on the heal which should be changed regardless of any other healing changes.

Think about it, the game could be a better game if more burst heals worked like sorc heal. Imagine if DKs had to drop block to cast coagulating blood, or nightblades couldn't roll cancel healthy offering. Those would be good things.

Turtle_Bot

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I would argue that dark deal is an example of how a burst heal should work.

It should be dangerous to use, and thus rewarding to pull off. If everyone had to use good judgement when they heal, then healing and stalemates wouldn't be as much of an issue in pvp and healers would be more valuable in pve

Then look at the benefits aside from just healing. It is a full blown buff skill that also gives sustain. That's a great design for how self healing could work for every class.

In a system where self burst healing is used sparingly and provides buffs, then the real drawback is the lack of scaling on the heal which should be changed regardless of any other healing changes.

Think about it, the game could be a better game if more burst heals worked like sorc heal. Imagine if DKs had to drop block to cast coagulating blood, or nightblades couldn't roll cancel healthy offering. Those would be good things.

I do agree that it would be a good way to balance offense and defense in the game better, but imagine the outcry of the other classes if they were forced to suddenly deal with what sorc deals with when it comes to healing and staying alive (not that I wouldn't enjoy seeing other classes finally experience just how bad sorc healing actually is).

They already can't reduce the currently massive amount of movement speed available to everyone that has made sorcs defensive play of running away all but useless on top of creating huge performance and desync issues because of the threatened outcry any time its mentioned (think back to the multitude of sorc threads over the past year or so that asked for sorc to get a proper heal to compensate for the free mobility all other classes now have), so imagine what would happen if they decide to nerf healing by giving all burst heals a cast time.

The only real caveat I have to making all burst heals work similar to dark exchange (with a cast time) would be that the game would be required to work perfectly and be bug free before doing that. We currently have too many bugs involving break free and CC immunity in general not working (arcanist stun, javelin, etc) which become extremely noticeable when playing sorc because of the delay on the heal, so those would be required to be fixed first otherwise the game just becomes whoever stuns first wins, which is not fun to play.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

The worst part of Dark Exchange is that you can't sprint weave the heal because of the cast time. Every other class in the game can sprint away at full speed while healing. Sorcerer must slow down to a snail's pace to heal. How does a Sorcerer, master of the arcane arts, not have an on demand instant cast heal?

mook-eb16_ESO

If sorc had better sustain then you could just dump it and its not actually any good as a heal anyway.

PhoenixGrey

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I would argue that dark deal is an example of how a burst heal should work.

It should be dangerous to use, and thus rewarding to pull off. If everyone had to use good judgement when they heal, then healing and stalemates wouldn't be as much of an issue in pvp and healers would be more valuable in pve

Then look at the benefits aside from just healing. It is a full blown buff skill that also gives sustain. That's a great design for how self healing could work for every class.

In a system where self burst healing is used sparingly and provides buffs, then the real drawback is the lack of scaling on the heal which should be changed regardless of any other healing changes.

Think about it, the game could be a better game if more burst heals worked like sorc heal. Imagine if DKs had to drop block to cast coagulating blood, or nightblades couldn't roll cancel healthy offering. Those would be good things.

In my version of ideal game balance, sorc wouldn’t have any heal but only shields.

Unfortunately that’s not how things work. Zos has already gone far enough to kill sorc class identity.

The reality is every class except sorc has a burst heal so I really I don’t care where it comes from as long as it’s there

PhoenixGrey

mook-eb16_ESO wrote: »

If sorc had better sustain then you could just dump it and its not actually any good as a heal anyway.

Sorc easily has the worst sustain in the game and the only class which still runs a sustain set in pvp

Nihilr

My stam sorc uses exchange to regen between fights. It's like barely the right amount of sustain... But I do agree with @DrNukenstein , cast times makes the game slow down a bit, and is more about timing than it is about bursting and desyncing other players. The game would feel better if all instant heals had cast times. It would at least slow down healer stacks in PvP enough to discourage immortal-ballgrouping.

FirmamentOfStars

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

mook-eb16_ESO wrote: »

If sorc had better sustain then you could just dump it and its not actually any good as a heal anyway.

Sorc easily has the worst sustain in the game and the only class which still runs a sustain set in pvp

Actually magsorc is the only class runninh a sustain set, because you want you max mag high, so you use sugar skulls instead of a regen food. Stamsorc doesnt need any of that.

But I am against taking off the cast time off dark deal. First off, magsorc does not profit from it a lot, since block casting it while having a shield up is pointless, since shields dont benefit from blocking. Also its not meant as your first heal, its meant as complementary heal while vigor etc is running, while kiting. As long as dark deal provides sustain plus heal, a cast time is warranted. Other classes cant perma blockheal, which would be enabled by dark deal having no cast time.

Duke_Falcon

All classes burst heal should have a 2 second cast time on it that cancels out for 0 healing with block, sprint, roll dodge bar swap, bash, and any interrupts in the game, and they should have to slot it on both bars. Then it will be balanced. lololol

Aces-High-82

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

mook-eb16_ESO wrote: »

If sorc had better sustain then you could just dump it and its not actually any good as a heal anyway.

Sorc easily has the worst sustain in the game and the only class which still runs a sustain set in pvp

Actually magsorc is the only class runninh a sustain set, because you want you max mag high, so you use sugar skulls instead of a regen food. Stamsorc doesnt need any of that.

But I am against taking off the cast time off dark deal. First off, magsorc does not profit from it a lot, since block casting it while having a shield up is pointless, since shields dont benefit from blocking. Also its not meant as your first heal, its meant as complementary heal while vigor etc is running, while kiting. As long as dark deal provides sustain plus heal, a cast time is warranted. Other classes cant perma blockheal, which would be enabled by dark deal having no cast time.

The cast time would be warrented If it had either a reasonable scaling or its "static" value would restore its true value/wasn't affected by battle spirit.

olsborg

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Think about it, the game could be a better game if more burst heals worked like sorc heal. Imagine if DKs had to drop block to cast coagulating blood, or nightblades couldn't roll cancel healthy offering. Those would be good things.

In a 1v1 sure, it would, but it would kill soloing cyrodiil wich is already hard af to pull off. Atleast sorc has streak wich enables them to use dark deal and other heals whilst keeping out of range. And dont say "but nb also has cloak" cloak has plenty of counters and often just doesnt work at all so...yea.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

As long as dark deal provides sustain plus heal, a cast time is warranted. Other classes cant perma blockheal, which would be enabled by dark deal having no cast time.

Seems like a no-brainer to disable the sustain component if the player is block casting Dark Deal.

Braffin

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I would argue that dark deal is an example of how a burst heal should work.

It should be dangerous to use, and thus rewarding to pull off. If everyone had to use good judgement when they heal, then healing and stalemates wouldn't be as much of an issue in pvp and healers would be more valuable in pve

Then look at the benefits aside from just healing. It is a full blown buff skill that also gives sustain. That's a great design for how self healing could work for every class.

In a system where self burst healing is used sparingly and provides buffs, then the real drawback is the lack of scaling on the heal which should be changed regardless of any other healing changes.

Think about it, the game could be a better game if more burst heals worked like sorc heal. Imagine if DKs had to drop block to cast coagulating blood, or nightblades couldn't roll cancel healthy offering. Those would be good things.

I do agree that it would be a good way to balance offense and defense in the game better, but imagine the outcry of the other classes if they were forced to suddenly deal with what sorc deals with when it comes to healing and staying alive (not that I wouldn't enjoy seeing other classes finally experience just how bad sorc healing actually is).

They already can't reduce the currently massive amount of movement speed available to everyone that has made sorcs defensive play of running away all but useless on top of creating huge performance and desync issues because of the threatened outcry any time its mentioned (think back to the multitude of sorc threads over the past year or so that asked for sorc to get a proper heal to compensate for the free mobility all other classes now have), so imagine what would happen if they decide to nerf healing by giving all burst heals a cast time.

The only real caveat I have to making all burst heals work similar to dark exchange (with a cast time) would be that the game would be required to work perfectly and be bug free before doing that. We currently have too many bugs involving break free and CC immunity in general not working (arcanist stun, javelin, etc) which become extremely noticeable when playing sorc because of the delay on the heal, so those would be required to be fixed first otherwise the game just becomes whoever stuns first wins, which is not fun to play.

I agree, it's an interesting idea, which could also have some benefits in PvE. Healing is far too easily done atm. Skillfull play and good situational awareness should be rewarded after all.

But yeah, unfortunately such changes aren't even thinkable atm due to the outcry of this forums "majority".

Most actual players would support those changes tho imo, besides of course being a bit upset by the nerf. But that's a quite normal thing.

Aces-High-82

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

As long as dark deal provides sustain plus heal, a cast time is warranted. Other classes cant perma blockheal, which would be enabled by dark deal having no cast time.

Seems like a no-brainer to disable the sustain component if the player is block casting Dark Deal.

And then waiting several patch cycles until its implementation gets fixed....

Theignson

It used to be that NB, eg, had super strong offensive skills but had to rely on stealth as defense. In other words, they were often glass cannons. In a similar way, sorcs had mobility.

However, ZOS, in its unending love for nB, gave them one of the strongest heals in the game. Now NB can be super tanky and still do a ton of damage. So NB, DK, Warden, Templar, and Necro now have strong healing and tankiness plus the ability to do a lot of damage (well not templar so much since nerfs). Arcanist also, with a massive shield.

Sorc, especially stam sorc, has been left out of this trend. Dark exchange is a terrible heal compared to the other classes. Stam sorc has to rely on mobility. Imo this makes sorc one of the hardest classes to play in PvP now.

I dont know the reasoning behind making one premier offensive class (NB) super tanky with amazing heals, and leaving sorc without heals, buta s everyone knows, the pvp scene has gotten way out of balance.

IZZEFlameLash

When I don't play Sorc, it feels balanced and barely anyone really interrupt that anyways. But when I do play Sorc... oh boy... cast time feels like forever.