So what is the difficulty people have with light attack weaving?

LunaFlora

Galeriano wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I find strict rotations boring.

But to the people with hand/wrist problems. Every try switching to controller?
Maybe it's the keyboard and mouse that's causing your pain.

i use a controller and unsurprisingly it still hurts to light attack weave.

not everyone plays on pc and the people that do don't all play with mouse and keyboard. whenever i do play on pc i've always used a controller.

I have to wonder what the heck is causing so much pain in people's hands?

My work is heavy lifting and squatting all day. If I had problems like that I wouldn't be able to work to make a living.

i am not able to work. i hope it doesn't come as a shock that disabled people don't all have the ability to work.

as others have said and i said in my first comment it's chronic pain.
and something repetitive like light attack weaving can cause that to get worse, specifically joint pain.

i have to wonder did you read anyone else's comments? because i have seen others explain why it hurts.

Have You tried alternative options that doesn't involve using hands that much? There are people streaming online shooters competitively and they have no hands. Mouse+keyboard or controller are the only two options possible these days.

yea i tried not light attack weaving.
i would love getting the upcoming ps5 accessibility controller though it certainly won't make light attack weaving possible.

you asked this "I have to wonder what the heck is causing so much pain in people's hands?"

and did you actually get your wonder answered by my reply and other people's comments?
i don't need light attack weaving to play eso. so i don't need an alternative to be able to do it.

why did you mention people with no hands who play shooters competively? i have hands and chronic pain which light attack weaving worsens.


the post is "So what is the difficulty people have with light attack weaving?" and people like me have given answers.

you do not need to wonder what's causing people pain and you do not need to ask me if i have tried alternative options.

I think You mistaken me for someone else. i did not qsk what You are implying I did. I think You blended my comment with someone else's.

I also havn't asked have You tried not light attack weaving, I asked have You tried alternative options that doesn't involve using hands that much. I mentioned people with no hands playing competitive shooters to support my point that even with serious disabilities people can find workarounds and still be effective gamers.

yea the profile pictures being the same is likely what caused that.

anyways any disability is serious.

i do not need to find a workaround. and i do not need light attack weaving to be an "effective gamer". which is a really weird thing to call people by the way.
it does not support your point.

how do i not use my hands as much and still light attack weave? because i cannot think of anyway to do that. if you want me to light attack weave, come up with some way to do that without it hurting.

Tannus15

sarahthes wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

there is a big difference between not light attacking at all, you don't generate ultimate for a start.

but still, can we dial back the hyperbole?

0 light attacks - 87k

with light attacks - 103k

bow is kinda rubbish for a test like this due to the hawk eye passive and there is 8k dps lost due to not having any ult gen on the 0 light attack parse, so realistically we're comparing 95k to 103k.

if you're not getting 80k dps then the problem is either your build or you're incapable of casting skills on cool down.

Thanks for posting this!

I see that the build uses the latest chapter mythic Velothi Ur-Mages amulet. How much you want to bet that ZOS will nerf the Velothi Ur-Mages mythic build next update? Just like they did the nerf to the Oakensoul Ring build, which also allowed folks to get decent DPS without LA weaving.

The issue with all of this is there are few people who actually care about their damage spread...they certainly don't want to play Elder Spreadsheets Online....yet we have to conform just to please people that are Meta focused....it just seems to be a terrible way to do things.

ZoS is all in on streamers and 99.9% of the streamers are Trifecta runners playing the top 0.5% of content, and that just isn't reflective of the the average ESO player...yet the devs are all in on this and it leaves a huge amount of normal players out in the cold...and no one can just say well they should go play something else, because if they do...there won't be an ESO.

what I'm saying very ineloquently is that there has to be another answer throwing all your resources in a playstyle that few people play is just ridiculous in my mind.....I really wish a dev would weigh in on this @ZOS_Kevin could you ask if we could open a dialog thread like you guys did with the future of PVP?

There is always going to be a 'best' setup. it's the nature of the game. Even when all sets are balanced by the same spreadsheet (which ZOS does, they even say all the time in their patch notes whenever they adjust a set that they're adjusting the relative power to be in line with other sets).

I'll be honest, I don't care what sets you're running if you're not in my core group. Even if you're in one of my open runs, as long as you can pull your own weight and don't spend the entire raid dead, and we clear, I am not going to look at your setups and judge you. I only judge when there are problems. You don't have to please me unless you're trying out for my Planesbreaker or my vSE HM groups, basically. And you're not, so you don't need to please me, so you really don't need to take meta setups so personally. Will your damage improve if you use them effectively? Probably. But you'd be doing that for YOU, not for ME.

Finally regarding the streamers - looking at the current stream team members, only about 20% of them stream raids. The rest stream pvp and housing. Mostly housing.

This. 100% this.

No one cares unless you're going for the very hardest content. At most you're going to have someone say "hey, if you're interested you could improve your dps if you change X, Y and Z.

99% of the time as long as an open run fills we're happy. Turn up, have fun, get some clears and some loot.

And omg the streamers thing. Of the Australian stream team there is one who does end game trials, the rest are all housing and dungeon runs. Their builds are for fun and the idea that they are elitist dps lords is laughable.

Tannus15

Ingenon wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

there is a big difference between not light attacking at all, you don't generate ultimate for a start.

but still, can we dial back the hyperbole?

0 light attacks - 87k

with light attacks - 103k

bow is kinda rubbish for a test like this due to the hawk eye passive and there is 8k dps lost due to not having any ult gen on the 0 light attack parse, so realistically we're comparing 95k to 103k.

if you're not getting 80k dps then the problem is either your build or you're incapable of casting skills on cool down.

Thanks for posting this!

I see that the build uses the latest chapter mythic Velothi Ur-Mages amulet. How much you want to bet that ZOS will nerf the Velothi Ur-Mages mythic build next update? Just like they did the nerf to the Oakensoul Ring build, which also allowed folks to get decent DPS without LA weaving.

No dramas. I'm pretty sure if I put some more thought into the build I could do better even without Velothi. Sorc is one of the weaker classes for a 0 light attack builds, and running bow/bow is also a bad idea when i think about it. I literally took something i was messing around with on PTS and ran with it.

Adding 1 light attack every 10 seconds or so for ult gen would help a lot.

CrashTest

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

for everyone that wants his character to light attack weave for the benefit, but doesn't want to do it him or herself, there are plenty of mice that come with macro functions. their input data looks exactly the same wether its a button press by the user or a macro.
no, it doesn't let you fire a million abilities at once, like a few people think, but it will fire a light attack every time you press an ability.
you'll never have to think about it again, and your mouse will do the job for you.

That's not how LA weaving works, so if you have a macro do this, your DPS won't go up. It'll go down because your LA macro takes up a whole gcd that you could be using for an actual skill which does more damage. You'd be better off not light attacking at all or randomly.

I've noticed that's a common misconception, and I wonder if that's part of the issue people have.

LA weaving works like this - you cancel the LA animation, not the skill animation. This is an important distinction because one way makes your dps higher and the other doesn't.

Proper LA weaving is just the combo of LA + skill in the same second. That means you hit LA and before the LA animation is completed, you hit a skill. This crams 2 attacks into the 1 second gcd, increasing your DPS.

CrashTest

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

I’ve been playing nightblade almost exclusively for several years, usually around 120 button presses per minute. The past several months I’ve been noticing discomfort in my wrist after a night trial session.

It's crazy just how much button mashing top tier DPS using base classes have to do. The new p2w class that's topping the parses lessens the 100+ apm but that should be part of base game combat not a pricey new chapter.

Tannus15

CrashTest wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

for everyone that wants his character to light attack weave for the benefit, but doesn't want to do it him or herself, there are plenty of mice that come with macro functions. their input data looks exactly the same wether its a button press by the user or a macro.
no, it doesn't let you fire a million abilities at once, like a few people think, but it will fire a light attack every time you press an ability.
you'll never have to think about it again, and your mouse will do the job for you.

That's not how LA weaving works, so if you have a macro do this, your DPS won't go up. It'll go down because your LA macro takes up a whole gcd that you could be using for an actual skill which does more damage. You'd be better off not light attacking at all or randomly.

I've noticed that's a common misconception, and I wonder if that's part of the issue people have.

LA weaving works like this - you cancel the LA animation, not the skill animation. This is an important distinction because one way makes your dps higher and the other doesn't.

Proper LA weaving is just the combo of LA + skill in the same second. That means you hit LA and before the LA animation is completed, you hit a skill. This crams 2 attacks into the 1 second gcd, increasing your DPS.

highlighted for emphasis. This is the key to light attack weaving, and the biggest problem with elemental weapon / crystal weapon. They work backwards compared to how light attack weaving actually functions, which is misleading if you're trying to understand the system.

on a side note, the only way to cancel skill animations is bashing, bar swapping or dodge rolling. this is a different skill set to light weaving and is more complicated to pull off. generally speaking i don't bother with it apart from bar swaps. I always use bar swap to animation cancel barbed trap for example.
This is also why I hate trying to weave cast time skills like crystal frags or wrecking blow. the cast time blocks the bar swap which really messes up my rhythm.

Charon_on_Vacation

CrashTest wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

for everyone that wants his character to light attack weave for the benefit, but doesn't want to do it him or herself, there are plenty of mice that come with macro functions. their input data looks exactly the same wether its a button press by the user or a macro.
no, it doesn't let you fire a million abilities at once, like a few people think, but it will fire a light attack every time you press an ability.
you'll never have to think about it again, and your mouse will do the job for you.

That's not how LA weaving works, so if you have a macro do this, your DPS won't go up. It'll go down because your LA macro takes up a whole gcd that you could be using for an actual skill which does more damage. You'd be better off not light attacking at all or randomly.

I've noticed that's a common misconception, and I wonder if that's part of the issue people have.

LA weaving works like this - you cancel the LA animation, not the skill animation. This is an important distinction because one way makes your dps higher and the other doesn't.

Proper LA weaving is just the combo of LA + skill in the same second. That means you hit LA and before the LA animation is completed, you hit a skill. This crams 2 attacks into the 1 second gcd, increasing your DPS.

i'm not sure if you know how macros work.
you can tell the macro to left click and milliseconds later to press an ability button.
you can get the timing for every animation in the game correct to the millisecond, if you want (obviously it doesn't need to be exact to the millisecond).
the game will interpret this the exact same way as if you pressed left click on your mouse and an ability button right after because the information it gets from your mouse/keyboard looks exactly the same wether you pressed it yourself or your macro did it for you.
its just build in software from razer, etc.
(just to be very clear, i am talking about the software that comes with your mouse/keyboard like razer synapse.)

boi_anachronism_

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

The mindless pew-button-pew-button really isn't for me. It's so boring that I can do it, but not for extended time periods. I'm ADHD and boring is a barrier to a lot of simple repetitive tasks. It was very freeing for me to find that at least in my case my DPS didn't suffer all that much in content when I went to a more flexible rotation. Interest helps keep me focused, focus helps my DPS. LA just doesn't work for me. It really is literally mind-numbing.

I find this interesting because i also have ADHD and this is something that actually puts me in a hyper focus state, everyone is different. Glad you found something that works for you though 😀


I do find the argument of "button mashing" to be seriously misunderstood though (not saying that is what you said, simply an overall observation.) It is very much not the case and (physically capable) players that have issues with it dont really understand this. I play on console and even though i have joint issues (so physical limitations) from years of work with heavy vibration equipment amongst other things. I have no issues. The reason being that you don't mash at all. Its a rhythm. In fact many players use a metronome when they first start. There is a cooldown between la and skills and a very synchronized imput. If you just mash as fast as possible not only will you cancel your skills but it most definitely will cause you joint issues. I wish there was some easily accessible guide to show players how to do this properly because it really causes people to become frustrated and give up.

Edit: the way i got better was that one of my friends who hits 124k actually sent me a video of his hands hitting the buttons while parsing. Kinda blew my mind.

Destai

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

The mindless pew-button-pew-button really isn't for me. It's so boring that I can do it, but not for extended time periods. I'm ADHD and boring is a barrier to a lot of simple repetitive tasks. It was very freeing for me to find that at least in my case my DPS didn't suffer all that much in content when I went to a more flexible rotation. Interest helps keep me focused, focus helps my DPS. LA just doesn't work for me. It really is literally mind-numbing.

I find this interesting because i also have ADHD and this is something that actually puts me in a hyper focus state, everyone is different. Glad you found something that works for you though 😀


I do find the argument of "button mashing" to be seriously misunderstood though (not saying that is what you said, simply an overall observation.) It is very much not the case and (physically capable) players that have issues with it dont really understand this. I play on console and even though i have joint issues (so physical limitations) from years of work with heavy vibration equipment amongst other things. I have no issues. The reason being that you don't mash at all. Its a rhythm. In fact many players use a metronome when they first start. There is a cooldown between la and skills and a very synchronized imput. If you just mash as fast as possible not only will you cancel your skills but it most definitely will cause you joint issues. I wish there was some easily accessible guide to show players how to do this properly because it really causes people to become frustrated and give up.

Really, players should be given that rhythm or whatever timing information in the game itself. There's no real indication my skills trip over the GCD because the GCD is never communicate. Skills just don't fire if you LA off-time and the system is even more susceptible to latency issues, further compounding the discomfort many have with the LA culture.

boi_anachronism_

Destai wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

The mindless pew-button-pew-button really isn't for me. It's so boring that I can do it, but not for extended time periods. I'm ADHD and boring is a barrier to a lot of simple repetitive tasks. It was very freeing for me to find that at least in my case my DPS didn't suffer all that much in content when I went to a more flexible rotation. Interest helps keep me focused, focus helps my DPS. LA just doesn't work for me. It really is literally mind-numbing.

I find this interesting because i also have ADHD and this is something that actually puts me in a hyper focus state, everyone is different. Glad you found something that works for you though 😀


I do find the argument of "button mashing" to be seriously misunderstood though (not saying that is what you said, simply an overall observation.) It is very much not the case and (physically capable) players that have issues with it dont really understand this. I play on console and even though i have joint issues (so physical limitations) from years of work with heavy vibration equipment amongst other things. I have no issues. The reason being that you don't mash at all. Its a rhythm. In fact many players use a metronome when they first start. There is a cooldown between la and skills and a very synchronized imput. If you just mash as fast as possible not only will you cancel your skills but it most definitely will cause you joint issues. I wish there was some easily accessible guide to show players how to do this properly because it really causes people to become frustrated and give up.

Really, players should be given that rhythm or whatever timing information in the game itself. There's no real indication my skills trip over the GCD because the GCD is never communicate. Skills just don't fire if you LA off-time and the system is even more susceptible to latency issues, further compounding the discomfort many have with the LA culture.

No i agree. I shared a lot of the same frustrations which is why I would like to see a guide implemented. Its considered an important skill for those seeking to hit a higher level of content and is indeed an accepted feature out the game regardless of if it started out as such. With that in mind there should absolutely be some tools at the disposal of players to help them learn effectively beyond one random tip on a loading screen.

p00tx

endgamesmug wrote: »

I just thought it'd be good to figure out what was going wrong for people struggling with this concept. For me I feel blessed that after utterly failing my first class which was mag sorc, i became better with my 2nd character a khajit stamblade which with that class it was part of activating skills and building ulti etc as an nb. So when i had to use that habit on other classes later down the track it wasnt a big deal, im very far from the na server so skills not going off and swaps not happening that goes on but i just keep on with it what else is there to do really but carry on as usual. With practice and repetition it just gets easier for me for everything, familiarity and deeper experience with understanding. Thats my 2 cents anyway 😁

Some people can and some people can't or won't. Everyone has their reasons and they're all fine and valid. There are heavy attack sorcs and now Arcanists with the Velothi mythic as an option, and they both do more than enough damage to complete all content in the game, aside from maybe the Swashbuckler Supreme title for heavy attack sorcs. I don't think this is even a discussion worth having anymore now that so much more of the community has access to so much more of the game's content. The devs heard the need and delivered with this new class.

loveeso

The LA weaving is super easy (well, at least as long as you are healthy) and I quite like it but I do agree that animation cancelling looks bad and can break someone’s immersion. On the other hand, melee LA animations look ridiculous so maybe it’s good that we cancel them till they are improved (if ever).
MA weaving was slightly more difficult but still easy and is no longer a thing.
HA weaving is also super easy.

CrashTest

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

for everyone that wants his character to light attack weave for the benefit, but doesn't want to do it him or herself, there are plenty of mice that come with macro functions. their input data looks exactly the same wether its a button press by the user or a macro.
no, it doesn't let you fire a million abilities at once, like a few people think, but it will fire a light attack every time you press an ability.
you'll never have to think about it again, and your mouse will do the job for you.

That's not how LA weaving works, so if you have a macro do this, your DPS won't go up. It'll go down because your LA macro takes up a whole gcd that you could be using for an actual skill which does more damage. You'd be better off not light attacking at all or randomly.

I've noticed that's a common misconception, and I wonder if that's part of the issue people have.

LA weaving works like this - you cancel the LA animation, not the skill animation. This is an important distinction because one way makes your dps higher and the other doesn't.

Proper LA weaving is just the combo of LA + skill in the same second. That means you hit LA and before the LA animation is completed, you hit a skill. This crams 2 attacks into the 1 second gcd, increasing your DPS.

i'm not sure if you know how macros work.
you can tell the macro to left click and milliseconds later to press an ability button.
you can get the timing for every animation in the game correct to the millisecond, if you want (obviously it doesn't need to be exact to the millisecond).
the game will interpret this the exact same way as if you pressed left click on your mouse and an ability button right after because the information it gets from your mouse/keyboard looks exactly the same wether you pressed it yourself or your macro did it for you.
its just build in software from razer, etc.
(just to be very clear, i am talking about the software that comes with your mouse/keyboard like razer synapse.)

Your original post suggested LA between skills. I simply explained that's not how LA weaving works and how your suggestion is a common misconception that leads to lower damage then explained how proper LA actually works. That's it. Now you're suggesting full on automated proper LA weaving which is against TOS and will get people banned if they're caught. All macros are against TOS.

BlueRaven

CrashTest wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

for everyone that wants his character to light attack weave for the benefit, but doesn't want to do it him or herself, there are plenty of mice that come with macro functions. their input data looks exactly the same wether its a button press by the user or a macro.
no, it doesn't let you fire a million abilities at once, like a few people think, but it will fire a light attack every time you press an ability.
you'll never have to think about it again, and your mouse will do the job for you.

That's not how LA weaving works, so if you have a macro do this, your DPS won't go up. It'll go down because your LA macro takes up a whole gcd that you could be using for an actual skill which does more damage. You'd be better off not light attacking at all or randomly.

I've noticed that's a common misconception, and I wonder if that's part of the issue people have.

LA weaving works like this - you cancel the LA animation, not the skill animation. This is an important distinction because one way makes your dps higher and the other doesn't.

Proper LA weaving is just the combo of LA + skill in the same second. That means you hit LA and before the LA animation is completed, you hit a skill. This crams 2 attacks into the 1 second gcd, increasing your DPS.

i'm not sure if you know how macros work.
you can tell the macro to left click and milliseconds later to press an ability button.
you can get the timing for every animation in the game correct to the millisecond, if you want (obviously it doesn't need to be exact to the millisecond).
the game will interpret this the exact same way as if you pressed left click on your mouse and an ability button right after because the information it gets from your mouse/keyboard looks exactly the same wether you pressed it yourself or your macro did it for you.
its just build in software from razer, etc.
(just to be very clear, i am talking about the software that comes with your mouse/keyboard like razer synapse.)

Your original post suggested LA between skills. I simply explained that's not how LA weaving works and how your suggestion is a common misconception that leads to lower damage then explained how proper LA actually works. That's it. Now you're suggesting full on automated proper LA weaving which is against TOS and will get people banned if they're caught. All macros are against TOS.

When I played wow, many many years ago, I remember macros were allowed to be used. In fact, there was kind of a built in system for them. (On my mage I wanted the “sheep” spell to actually cast one of my many variations of it at random.)

I don’t know if it is still there.

Perhaps if they just built in a similar system, at least part of ESO’s terrible combat system could be improved.

LokiPagan

I can do it absolutely fine during dummy parses and solo content...but during trials and dungeons my ping/lag goes up, which tends to throw off the input. It's really irritating when I've got it down to an art normally and it doesn't register because more people are around me. Recently lowered my graphics settings, even though I shouldn't have to...hopefully that helps a bit more.

Sorry for the people with arthritis, that really sucks.

Charon_on_Vacation

CrashTest wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

for everyone that wants his character to light attack weave for the benefit, but doesn't want to do it him or herself, there are plenty of mice that come with macro functions. their input data looks exactly the same wether its a button press by the user or a macro.
no, it doesn't let you fire a million abilities at once, like a few people think, but it will fire a light attack every time you press an ability.
you'll never have to think about it again, and your mouse will do the job for you.

That's not how LA weaving works, so if you have a macro do this, your DPS won't go up. It'll go down because your LA macro takes up a whole gcd that you could be using for an actual skill which does more damage. You'd be better off not light attacking at all or randomly.

I've noticed that's a common misconception, and I wonder if that's part of the issue people have.

LA weaving works like this - you cancel the LA animation, not the skill animation. This is an important distinction because one way makes your dps higher and the other doesn't.

Proper LA weaving is just the combo of LA + skill in the same second. That means you hit LA and before the LA animation is completed, you hit a skill. This crams 2 attacks into the 1 second gcd, increasing your DPS.

i'm not sure if you know how macros work.
you can tell the macro to left click and milliseconds later to press an ability button.
you can get the timing for every animation in the game correct to the millisecond, if you want (obviously it doesn't need to be exact to the millisecond).
the game will interpret this the exact same way as if you pressed left click on your mouse and an ability button right after because the information it gets from your mouse/keyboard looks exactly the same wether you pressed it yourself or your macro did it for you.
its just build in software from razer, etc.
(just to be very clear, i am talking about the software that comes with your mouse/keyboard like razer synapse.)

Your original post suggested LA between skills. I simply explained that's not how LA weaving works and how your suggestion is a common misconception that leads to lower damage then explained how proper LA actually works. That's it. Now you're suggesting full on automated proper LA weaving which is against TOS and will get people banned if they're caught. All macros are against TOS.

no, i didn't suggest LA between skills.
i said it will fire a light attack every time you use an ability, which is what happens if you program your macro.
for obvious reasons, you don't want to macro your left mouse button to fire an ability.
you can tell the macro to just use a light attack and an ability every time you press an ability button.
its a simple "if i press button X, do a left click, wait x milliseconds, press button X"
it also will not ever get anyone banned, because using a macro gives the exact same data as pressing the buttons yourself.
i'm not playing anymore, just browsing the forum sometimes to see whats going on, but when i played, lots of people used their mouse/keyboard software to do stuff like that. i mean, you can easily put complete rotations in it, and i knew more than one pvp player that used heavy attack/dizzy swing, sorc execute, etc. macros and others macros.
in a lot of other games its quite normal to use macros, you even get an interface for it.
i can understand that zos doesn't want it and doesn't want to invalidate the whole weaving with a very simple solution that is readily available for many players, but every player that is complaining about the light attack weaving should know there is an easy way around it.
without any danger of getting banned, even though it is against tos.

fizzylu

BlueRaven wrote: »

When I played wow, many many years ago, I remember macros were allowed to be used. In fact, there was kind of a built in system for them. (On my mage I wanted the “sheep” spell to actually cast one of my many variations of it at random.)

I don’t know if it is still there.

Perhaps if they just built in a similar system, at least part of ESO’s terrible combat system could be improved.

WoW does still have the macro system, but like @CrashTest has been saying; macros wouldn't really work or solve anything when it comes to this actual subject. Light attack weaving is about animation canceling and min/maxing the amount of damage you can do per GCD.... macros in WoW do not eliminate GCD, they just reduce the amount of buttons a person has to physically press.
There is no quick way of fixing ESO's light attack weaving problem.... not macros, and definitely not lowering light attack damage. Honestly, the only practical "fix" I think there is would be to add cooldowns to skills and in line light/heavy attacking to New World's. Combat in that game feels way less spammy, doesn't make my fingers hurt after a while, and still fits into the ESO style combat.

loveeso

fizzylu wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

When I played wow, many many years ago, I remember macros were allowed to be used. In fact, there was kind of a built in system for them. (On my mage I wanted the “sheep” spell to actually cast one of my many variations of it at random.)

I don’t know if it is still there.

Perhaps if they just built in a similar system, at least part of ESO’s terrible combat system could be improved.

WoW does still have the macro system, but like @CrashTest has been saying; macros wouldn't really work or solve anything when it comes to this actual subject. Light attack weaving is about animation canceling and min/maxing the amount of damage you can do per GCD.... macros in WoW do not eliminate GCD, they just reduce the amount of buttons a person has to physically press.
There is no quick way of fixing ESO's light attack weaving problem.... not macros, and definitely not lowering light attack damage. Honestly, the only practical "fix" I think there is would be to add cooldowns to skills and in line light/heavy attacking to New World's. Combat in that game feels way less spammy, doesn't make my fingers hurt after a while, and still fits into the ESO style combat.

Agreed, that game does have much nicer combat than ESO, at least for me.

I don’t see any technical reason why one couldn’t use simple mini macros, like the ones described earlier by @Charon_on_Vacation , to automate LA weaving on PC (probably no way of achieving the same on consoles though). Weaving is so trivial that I wouldn’t bother but it might be useful for people suffering from arthritis and other conditions. Might even also be good for these of us who are still healthy - would probably decrease the wear and tear of our input devices, and could even decrease the likelihood of getting RSI.

Warhawke_80

I have been noticing more and more that in game most people just ignore LA, our laugh at it...I ran a few pug Dungeons las weekend and it seemed to be the source of a lot of jokes, it just appears that it wouldn't be a great loss if the devs eliminated it....one player kept talking about his metronome during a run it was quite funny

It's like so much else in this game... you have this small vocal group that at least say they love it while everyone lese wants it gone asap...I really do hope they are working to give us better combat behind the scenes it's really the only thing that could make me leave in the future.

Braffin

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I have been noticing more and more that in game most people just ignore LA, our laugh at it...I ran a few pug Dungeons las weekend and it seemed to be the source of a lot of jokes, it just appears that it wouldn't be a great loss if the devs eliminated it....one player kept talking about his metronome during a run it was quite funny

It's like so much else in this game... you have this small vocal group that at least say they love it while everyone lese wants it gone asap...I really do hope they are working to give us better combat behind the scenes it's really the only thing that could make me leave in the future.

Yeah, this forums are indeed filled with a minor but vocal group agitating against LA weaving since almost 10 years now.

That's not necessary, ya know?

As you know for yourself, LA weaving isn't mandatory outside of absolute endgame (scorepushing, some trifectas, high-ranked PvP), alternatives like arcanist and (to a lesser extent) HA builds exist.

So, why remove something which isn't mandatory but enjoyable for a lot of people? Because you don't like it and can't be bothered with tolerating letting other people have their fun? Sorry, but that's not sufficient for a change.

Won't happen anyways. Zos didn't change LA weaving the last 10 years and most probably continue ignoring people, which want to remove "combat mastery" (Zos term, not mine ).

KlauthWarthog

Destai wrote: »

Really, players should be given that rhythm or whatever timing information in the game itself. There's no real indication my skills trip over the GCD because the GCD is never communicate.

This is the derpiest thing about how combat interacts with the UI. The GCD is literally the "per second" part of DPS in this game, and yet you need to run a command* to make it show up in the screen. Why the heck isn't there a setting for it?

* the command:

/script ZO_ActionButtons_ToggleShowGlobalCooldown()

boi_anachronism_

p00tx wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I just thought it'd be good to figure out what was going wrong for people struggling with this concept. For me I feel blessed that after utterly failing my first class which was mag sorc, i became better with my 2nd character a khajit stamblade which with that class it was part of activating skills and building ulti etc as an nb. So when i had to use that habit on other classes later down the track it wasnt a big deal, im very far from the na server so skills not going off and swaps not happening that goes on but i just keep on with it what else is there to do really but carry on as usual. With practice and repetition it just gets easier for me for everything, familiarity and deeper experience with understanding. Thats my 2 cents anyway 😁

Some people can and some people can't or won't. Everyone has their reasons and they're all fine and valid. There are heavy attack sorcs and now Arcanists with the Velothi mythic as an option, and they both do more than enough damage to complete all content in the game, aside from maybe the Swashbuckler Supreme title for heavy attack sorcs. I don't think this is even a discussion worth having anymore now that so much more of the community has access to so much more of the game's content. The devs heard the need and delivered with this new class.

Ok, something here to note about arcanists that is pretty misunderstood. You DO actually need to be able to weave to play it at a high level. You want to hit 100k? 110k? Guess what, you will run out of sustain very quickly if you dont weave. Use a high stam restoration food and your stam will be too high and coral will hit poor numbers. Lower skill player have a hard time with the resource management mini game pretty much across the board. For those just wanting 80k, sure its a good option if you replace coral. In content hitting good numbers can also be challenging for some players if mechanics are not well understood. Beam must be timed so you aren't constantly interrupted by block or knock back mechanics. HA single bar builds however are constantly a good option for folks in that position.

Braffin

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I just thought it'd be good to figure out what was going wrong for people struggling with this concept. For me I feel blessed that after utterly failing my first class which was mag sorc, i became better with my 2nd character a khajit stamblade which with that class it was part of activating skills and building ulti etc as an nb. So when i had to use that habit on other classes later down the track it wasnt a big deal, im very far from the na server so skills not going off and swaps not happening that goes on but i just keep on with it what else is there to do really but carry on as usual. With practice and repetition it just gets easier for me for everything, familiarity and deeper experience with understanding. Thats my 2 cents anyway 😁

Some people can and some people can't or won't. Everyone has their reasons and they're all fine and valid. There are heavy attack sorcs and now Arcanists with the Velothi mythic as an option, and they both do more than enough damage to complete all content in the game, aside from maybe the Swashbuckler Supreme title for heavy attack sorcs. I don't think this is even a discussion worth having anymore now that so much more of the community has access to so much more of the game's content. The devs heard the need and delivered with this new class.

Ok, something here to note about arcanists that is pretty misunderstood. You DO actually need to be able to weave to play it at a high level. You want to hit 100k? 110k? Guess what, you will run out of sustain very quickly if you dont weave. Use a high stam restoration food and your stam will be too high and coral will hit poor numbers. Lower skill player have a hard time with the resource management mini game pretty much across the board. For those just wanting 80k, sure its a good option if you replace coral. In content hitting good numbers can also be challenging for some players if mechanics are not well understood. Beam must be timed so you aren't constantly interrupted by block or knock back mechanics. HA single bar builds however are constantly a good option for folks in that position.

You are right.

Of course some could say, that alternatives to LA weaving should be an alternative for players with disabilities, lag and other reasons which prevent LA weaving, not an option to bypass content difficulty for low skill players.

The option for the latter is called normal mode.

boi_anachronism_

Braffin wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I just thought it'd be good to figure out what was going wrong for people struggling with this concept. For me I feel blessed that after utterly failing my first class which was mag sorc, i became better with my 2nd character a khajit stamblade which with that class it was part of activating skills and building ulti etc as an nb. So when i had to use that habit on other classes later down the track it wasnt a big deal, im very far from the na server so skills not going off and swaps not happening that goes on but i just keep on with it what else is there to do really but carry on as usual. With practice and repetition it just gets easier for me for everything, familiarity and deeper experience with understanding. Thats my 2 cents anyway 😁

Some people can and some people can't or won't. Everyone has their reasons and they're all fine and valid. There are heavy attack sorcs and now Arcanists with the Velothi mythic as an option, and they both do more than enough damage to complete all content in the game, aside from maybe the Swashbuckler Supreme title for heavy attack sorcs. I don't think this is even a discussion worth having anymore now that so much more of the community has access to so much more of the game's content. The devs heard the need and delivered with this new class.

Ok, something here to note about arcanists that is pretty misunderstood. You DO actually need to be able to weave to play it at a high level. You want to hit 100k? 110k? Guess what, you will run out of sustain very quickly if you dont weave. Use a high stam restoration food and your stam will be too high and coral will hit poor numbers. Lower skill player have a hard time with the resource management mini game pretty much across the board. For those just wanting 80k, sure its a good option if you replace coral. In content hitting good numbers can also be challenging for some players if mechanics are not well understood. Beam must be timed so you aren't constantly interrupted by block or knock back mechanics. HA single bar builds however are constantly a good option for folks in that position.

You are right.

Of course some could say, that alternatives to LA weaving should be an alternative for players with disabilities, lag and other reasons which prevent LA weaving, not an option to bypass content difficulty for low skill players.

The option for the latter is called normal mode.

I dont disagree. Just refuting a point that consistently made. I guess what Im saying is that people love to say that because it is much easier to parse that it is perfect for players like that. While it is true that missing light attacks have little effect on your damage it has a huge effect on your sustain. Dummies have no mechanics to deal with. The reality of playing it in content is that it actually requires a lot of skill even on a regular vet level in many cases. Vka comes to mind, there are a ton of mechanics that require blocking where if they are not timed right you end up losing half your damage by having to constantly cancel beam. I think nefas touched on this in a video at one point saying that it is B or C tier for inexperienced players and S tier for super experienced ones for exactly that reason. The vast majority of those folks will get better in content damage from a single bar or HA build but don't understand that because people keep repeating this.

Dagoth_Rac

Braffin wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I just thought it'd be good to figure out what was going wrong for people struggling with this concept. For me I feel blessed that after utterly failing my first class which was mag sorc, i became better with my 2nd character a khajit stamblade which with that class it was part of activating skills and building ulti etc as an nb. So when i had to use that habit on other classes later down the track it wasnt a big deal, im very far from the na server so skills not going off and swaps not happening that goes on but i just keep on with it what else is there to do really but carry on as usual. With practice and repetition it just gets easier for me for everything, familiarity and deeper experience with understanding. Thats my 2 cents anyway 😁

Some people can and some people can't or won't. Everyone has their reasons and they're all fine and valid. There are heavy attack sorcs and now Arcanists with the Velothi mythic as an option, and they both do more than enough damage to complete all content in the game, aside from maybe the Swashbuckler Supreme title for heavy attack sorcs. I don't think this is even a discussion worth having anymore now that so much more of the community has access to so much more of the game's content. The devs heard the need and delivered with this new class.

Ok, something here to note about arcanists that is pretty misunderstood. You DO actually need to be able to weave to play it at a high level. You want to hit 100k? 110k? Guess what, you will run out of sustain very quickly if you dont weave. Use a high stam restoration food and your stam will be too high and coral will hit poor numbers. Lower skill player have a hard time with the resource management mini game pretty much across the board. For those just wanting 80k, sure its a good option if you replace coral. In content hitting good numbers can also be challenging for some players if mechanics are not well understood. Beam must be timed so you aren't constantly interrupted by block or knock back mechanics. HA single bar builds however are constantly a good option for folks in that position.

You are right.

Of course some could say, that alternatives to LA weaving should be an alternative for players with disabilities, lag and other reasons which prevent LA weaving, not an option to bypass content difficulty for low skill players.

The option for the latter is called normal mode.

But many of the people who dislike or cannot do weaving enjoy everything else about Veteran and Veteran Hard Mode. The cooperation, the mechanics, the situational awareness, the need to react to random elements, the group dynamics, etc. In other words, lots of players want PvE content that is mentally exciting and engaging, just that won't give us nerve and muscle damage. Normal is so brain dead easy and boring that who cares if you can clear it without weaving?

bulbousb16_ESO

Light Attacking Weaving is pretty much the worst aspect of a fantastic game. Time for the scrap heap.

Braffin

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I just thought it'd be good to figure out what was going wrong for people struggling with this concept. For me I feel blessed that after utterly failing my first class which was mag sorc, i became better with my 2nd character a khajit stamblade which with that class it was part of activating skills and building ulti etc as an nb. So when i had to use that habit on other classes later down the track it wasnt a big deal, im very far from the na server so skills not going off and swaps not happening that goes on but i just keep on with it what else is there to do really but carry on as usual. With practice and repetition it just gets easier for me for everything, familiarity and deeper experience with understanding. Thats my 2 cents anyway 😁

Some people can and some people can't or won't. Everyone has their reasons and they're all fine and valid. There are heavy attack sorcs and now Arcanists with the Velothi mythic as an option, and they both do more than enough damage to complete all content in the game, aside from maybe the Swashbuckler Supreme title for heavy attack sorcs. I don't think this is even a discussion worth having anymore now that so much more of the community has access to so much more of the game's content. The devs heard the need and delivered with this new class.

Ok, something here to note about arcanists that is pretty misunderstood. You DO actually need to be able to weave to play it at a high level. You want to hit 100k? 110k? Guess what, you will run out of sustain very quickly if you dont weave. Use a high stam restoration food and your stam will be too high and coral will hit poor numbers. Lower skill player have a hard time with the resource management mini game pretty much across the board. For those just wanting 80k, sure its a good option if you replace coral. In content hitting good numbers can also be challenging for some players if mechanics are not well understood. Beam must be timed so you aren't constantly interrupted by block or knock back mechanics. HA single bar builds however are constantly a good option for folks in that position.

You are right.

Of course some could say, that alternatives to LA weaving should be an alternative for players with disabilities, lag and other reasons which prevent LA weaving, not an option to bypass content difficulty for low skill players.

The option for the latter is called normal mode.

But many of the people who dislike or cannot do weaving enjoy everything else about Veteran and Veteran Hard Mode. The cooperation, the mechanics, the situational awareness, the need to react to random elements, the group dynamics, etc. In other words, lots of players want PvE content that is mentally exciting and engaging, just that won't give us nerve and muscle damage. Normal is so brain dead easy and boring that who cares if you can clear it without weaving?

Yeah, I get that and you have my sympathy.

Nonetheless in this case there as said before options at hand, especially arcanist. Additionally, exeedingly well LA weaving isn't necessary for the content you mentioned. The minimum requirement is to hit a LA once every 9 sec. Doesn't have to be weaved. That way all Veteran content and almost all HMs are perfectly doable.

So there is no need for a change in the combat system in this regard.

loveeso

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I just thought it'd be good to figure out what was going wrong for people struggling with this concept. For me I feel blessed that after utterly failing my first class which was mag sorc, i became better with my 2nd character a khajit stamblade which with that class it was part of activating skills and building ulti etc as an nb. So when i had to use that habit on other classes later down the track it wasnt a big deal, im very far from the na server so skills not going off and swaps not happening that goes on but i just keep on with it what else is there to do really but carry on as usual. With practice and repetition it just gets easier for me for everything, familiarity and deeper experience with understanding. Thats my 2 cents anyway 😁

Some people can and some people can't or won't. Everyone has their reasons and they're all fine and valid. There are heavy attack sorcs and now Arcanists with the Velothi mythic as an option, and they both do more than enough damage to complete all content in the game, aside from maybe the Swashbuckler Supreme title for heavy attack sorcs. I don't think this is even a discussion worth having anymore now that so much more of the community has access to so much more of the game's content. The devs heard the need and delivered with this new class.

Ok, something here to note about arcanists that is pretty misunderstood. You DO actually need to be able to weave to play it at a high level. You want to hit 100k? 110k? Guess what, you will run out of sustain very quickly if you dont weave. Use a high stam restoration food and your stam will be too high and coral will hit poor numbers. Lower skill player have a hard time with the resource management mini game pretty much across the board. For those just wanting 80k, sure its a good option if you replace coral. In content hitting good numbers can also be challenging for some players if mechanics are not well understood. Beam must be timed so you aren't constantly interrupted by block or knock back mechanics. HA single bar builds however are constantly a good option for folks in that position.

Light attacks restoring resources without using a special skill like, for example, Nightblade’s Leeching Strikes? According to my knowledge they do not restore resources - never noticed it and never saw anything like that mentioned in any of the reliable sources I used (e.g. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Combat#Light_Attack ). Do you have a source for this?

I vaguely remember ZOS tested the idea that LAs would restore resources on the PTS long time ago but quickly gave up on it because it would unbalance the game.

boi_anachronism_

loveeso wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I just thought it'd be good to figure out what was going wrong for people struggling with this concept. For me I feel blessed that after utterly failing my first class which was mag sorc, i became better with my 2nd character a khajit stamblade which with that class it was part of activating skills and building ulti etc as an nb. So when i had to use that habit on other classes later down the track it wasnt a big deal, im very far from the na server so skills not going off and swaps not happening that goes on but i just keep on with it what else is there to do really but carry on as usual. With practice and repetition it just gets easier for me for everything, familiarity and deeper experience with understanding. Thats my 2 cents anyway 😁

Some people can and some people can't or won't. Everyone has their reasons and they're all fine and valid. There are heavy attack sorcs and now Arcanists with the Velothi mythic as an option, and they both do more than enough damage to complete all content in the game, aside from maybe the Swashbuckler Supreme title for heavy attack sorcs. I don't think this is even a discussion worth having anymore now that so much more of the community has access to so much more of the game's content. The devs heard the need and delivered with this new class.

Ok, something here to note about arcanists that is pretty misunderstood. You DO actually need to be able to weave to play it at a high level. You want to hit 100k? 110k? Guess what, you will run out of sustain very quickly if you dont weave. Use a high stam restoration food and your stam will be too high and coral will hit poor numbers. Lower skill player have a hard time with the resource management mini game pretty much across the board. For those just wanting 80k, sure its a good option if you replace coral. In content hitting good numbers can also be challenging for some players if mechanics are not well understood. Beam must be timed so you aren't constantly interrupted by block or knock back mechanics. HA single bar builds however are constantly a good option for folks in that position.

Light attacks restoring resources without using a special skill like, for example, Nightblade’s Leeching Strikes? According to my knowledge they do not restore resources - never noticed it and never saw anything like that mentioned in any of the reliable sources I used (e.g. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Combat#Light_Attack ). Do you have a source for this?

I vaguely remember ZOS tested the idea that LAs would restore resources on the PTS long time ago but quickly gave up on it because it would unbalance the game.

I did not say light attacks DIRECTLY restore resources if you look at my post. I said it is necessary for sustain its not the same thing although there are skills and procs that do this.

Let me clarify what im talking about here when i say light attacks are important for sustain:

They function as a restore indirectly in the sense that they require no resources to perform there by giving you time when not using skills which actually have associated costs in which to recover. If you spam skills you will simply run out otherwise it is essentially dead space in your rotation.

They are also essential for building ultimate. Now while heavy attacks do restore resources and ultimate directly with classes that require high aps you will simply not hit the same numbers that way. you are directly sacrificing damage for sustain and only in the case where you have empower will heavy attacks really be viable to make up any of that but it will never reach the same numbers.

loveeso

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I just thought it'd be good to figure out what was going wrong for people struggling with this concept. For me I feel blessed that after utterly failing my first class which was mag sorc, i became better with my 2nd character a khajit stamblade which with that class it was part of activating skills and building ulti etc as an nb. So when i had to use that habit on other classes later down the track it wasnt a big deal, im very far from the na server so skills not going off and swaps not happening that goes on but i just keep on with it what else is there to do really but carry on as usual. With practice and repetition it just gets easier for me for everything, familiarity and deeper experience with understanding. Thats my 2 cents anyway 😁

Some people can and some people can't or won't. Everyone has their reasons and they're all fine and valid. There are heavy attack sorcs and now Arcanists with the Velothi mythic as an option, and they both do more than enough damage to complete all content in the game, aside from maybe the Swashbuckler Supreme title for heavy attack sorcs. I don't think this is even a discussion worth having anymore now that so much more of the community has access to so much more of the game's content. The devs heard the need and delivered with this new class.

Ok, something here to note about arcanists that is pretty misunderstood. You DO actually need to be able to weave to play it at a high level. You want to hit 100k? 110k? Guess what, you will run out of sustain very quickly if you dont weave. Use a high stam restoration food and your stam will be too high and coral will hit poor numbers. Lower skill player have a hard time with the resource management mini game pretty much across the board. For those just wanting 80k, sure its a good option if you replace coral. In content hitting good numbers can also be challenging for some players if mechanics are not well understood. Beam must be timed so you aren't constantly interrupted by block or knock back mechanics. HA single bar builds however are constantly a good option for folks in that position.

Light attacks restoring resources without using a special skill like, for example, Nightblade’s Leeching Strikes? According to my knowledge they do not restore resources - never noticed it and never saw anything like that mentioned in any of the reliable sources I used (e.g. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Combat#Light_Attack ). Do you have a source for this?

I vaguely remember ZOS tested the idea that LAs would restore resources on the PTS long time ago but quickly gave up on it because it would unbalance the game.

I did not say light attacks DIRECTLY restore resources if you look at my post. I said it is necessary for sustain its not the same thing although there are skills and procs that do this.

Let me clarify what im talking about here when i say light attacks are important for sustain:

They function as a restore indirectly in the sense that they require no resources to perform there by giving you time when not using skills which actually have associated costs in which to recover. If you spam skills you will simply run out otherwise it is essentially dead space in your rotation.

They are also essential for building ultimate. Now while heavy attacks do restore resources and ultimate directly with classes that require high aps you will simply not hit the same numbers that way. you are directly sacrificing damage for sustain and only in the case where you have empower will heavy attacks really be viable to make up any of that but it will never reach the same numbers.

Thanks, that's exactly what I suspected to be the source of your confusion about the association between light-attack weaving and sustain but I preferred to ask first in order to confirm and ask about your source instead of jumping to conclusions.

Yes, indeed, it's true that if one's build (and that includes rotation ofc) is not optimised, one can run into sustain problems, and this optimisation depends on one's weaving. Most of us, veterans, have seen it many times but for anyone who hasn't, it's really easy to see with a simple test:

1. Create a build which can be sustained on the trial dummy with the weaving average of, let's say, around 200ms.
2. Keep the same build and do another parse but this time increase your speed to reach a weaving average of, let's say, 50ms.

You will run into sustain problems.

That means that as you get better at weaving, your build needs to be tuned to your new weaving average for you to be able to sustain. We've all been there and had to adapt our builds.

Now, because of GCD you cannot cast more than one skill per second, but since nobody is perfect, even the best of us will waste some time (i.e. cast skills less frequently than once per second) while weaving so when you skip light attacks, you may run into sustain problems the same way you did when you improved your weaving average from 200ms to 50ms. The solution stays the same - one must modify one's build.

Now returning to the context of what you wrote earlier, I hope you can see that wether one performs light attacks or not while using an Arcanist does not matter as far as sustain is concerned. What matters is using the right build or not speeding up one's rotation too much. If you skip light attacks but maintain exactly the same speed, your DPS stays the same (sans the negligible 1% of LA damage (the amulet) and the lower ultimate generation) and you will have no sustain problems. If you are not able to control your speed, it's best to attune your build so that you can sustain. Most people will not skip all light attacks of course. They will only miss some.

All in all, this makes an Arcanist with the amulet a relatively easy build to play (huge cleave & DPS of well above 110k even with very sloppy light attack weaving) and practically a direct replacement for a now nerfed lighting HA sorcerer as I've explained in some of my other posts on this forum.

I have nothing against the Arcanist being so easy, mind you. It's not my favourite but I do have one Arcanist, too.