EXCITING new Xv1 possibilities in U39

PhoenixGrey

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes, block healing is basically what everyone does and why nobody dies and how everyone goes from zero to hero in a single button press.

If you like that crap then good for you. There's no reason to argue about a stupid monster set when obviously we disagree on a much more fundamental issue.

I'm tired of deathmatches timing out instead of concluding. I'm tired of duels lasting 5 minutes. I'm tired of NBs, DKs, and Wardens coming completely back to life with one block-heal.

I get it. Some people like to X. These overpowered heals are what make it possible. This set will hurt Xing. What about EVERYTHING else? For the love of God look at the bigger picture.

Youda rather they nerfed all healing by 20%? Easy for you to say now. I think if that were coming down the pipe we'd have many more threads than this, encouraged by the exact same people, talking about how THAT would hurt Xers.

Everybody on these forums is a PvP god who doesn't care about the little guy. It gets so tiring hearing the same perspective about topic after topic after topic.

Imagine being able to routinely kill groups of players and worrying about a single *** monster set.

"Why don't new people come to PvP?" LOL.

They need to just pull the plug on the game tbh it's too old and all the die hards long since stopped caring about campaign score, big siege battles, or anything at all except fighting. Objectives are just a thing to farm on, or worse, an inconvenient distraction from what you think the game actually is.

I can't with this discussion right now. If the set is so good just friggin use it yourself. "Oh no I would never use it, it's an Xv1 tool and I'm the 1." Yeah-- got it-- you kill people in less than 5 seconds so why would you ever need something that takes this long to make a noticable impact?

How 10 people using their skills, gear, and whatever to grind down and kill 1 people is a problem for you, but one person killing 10 doesn't even hint at imbalance to you... I'll just never understand. Seems like ego to me.

This is one of the most misleading post to new players

The game’s population was on the exponential uptrend when it was in a healthier place and not filled with xv1 tools.

I myself know a ton of people who left pvp because of its current state.

The state of the meta makes zero difference to ball groups. Have you been part of a 25 man ball group. I have been and a lot of game balance mechanics don’t even matter.

Anti_Virus

Marcus684 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes, block healing is basically what everyone does and why nobody dies and how everyone goes from zero to hero in a single button press.

If you like that crap then good for you. There's no reason to argue about a stupid monster set when obviously we disagree on a much more fundamental issue.

I'm tired of deathmatches timing out instead of concluding. I'm tired of duels lasting 5 minutes. I'm tired of NBs, DKs, and Wardens coming completely back to life with one block-heal.

I get it. Some people like to X. These overpowered heals are what make it possible. This set will hurt Xing. What about EVERYTHING else? For the love of God look at the bigger picture.

Youda rather they nerfed all healing by 20%? Easy for you to say now. I think if that were coming down the pipe we'd have many more threads than this, encouraged by the exact same people, talking about how THAT would hurt Xers.

Everybody on these forums is a PvP god who doesn't care about the little guy. It gets so tiring hearing the same perspective about topic after topic after topic.

Imagine being able to routinely kill groups of players and worrying about a single *** monster set.

"Why don't new people come to PvP?" LOL.

They need to just pull the plug on the game tbh it's too old and all the die hards long since stopped caring about campaign score, big siege battles, or anything at all except fighting. Objectives are just a thing to farm on, or worse, an inconvenient distraction from what you think the game actually is.

I can't with this discussion right now. If the set is so good just friggin use it yourself. "Oh no I would never use it, it's an Xv1 tool and I'm the 1." Yeah-- got it-- you kill people in less than 5 seconds so why would you ever need something that takes this long to make a noticable impact?

How 10 people using their skills, gear, and whatever to grind down and kill 1 people is a problem for you, but one person killing 10 doesn't even hint at imbalance to you... I'll just never understand. Seems like ego to me.

This post is golden. I’ve always said that these “elite” PVPers don’t want balance they just want to be OP and win against everyone else.

“How dare people group up in a GROUP PVP ZONE? Those skill-less noobs nerf cross healing etc”

They shame people for grouping up and playing the way cyrodil was intended. first it was the evil soulless zergs, now it the unfair ball group. These people won’t stop until Cyrodil is either a giant 1v1 arena or a zone or where only new players can join just so they can live their 1vX dream

I've always wondered if Cyrodiil wouldn't be better off if all of these leet 1vXers that passionately defend their broken crutch builds in the forums followed through with their threats and actually quit the game. Their playstyle is enjoyable for 1 person: themselves, and their behavior when finally brought down is among the most toxic I've experienced. I have a collection of screenshots of hate whispers from these players that usually go something like, "<expletive deleted> zergling come 1v1 me" or complaining about something like defile/Fossilize/Meteor that they feel is cheese while they've been crutching on OP heals cheese the entire fight. They're almost as bad as cloaking NBs when they die.

Cyrodil would definitely be better if these players leave they don’t contribute to the campaign, capture keeps or take keep resources and if they do take keep resources then it’s only to tower farm and waste everyones time. They simply troll people thinking that they are good

OBJnoob

Misleading how? Block healing isn't strong? Healing isn't OP? Meta players don't struggle to kill eachother?

You can blame Xv1 tools if you want to, whatever definition you have of that exactly. It seems to me like the bad ideas that plague this game until they end up getting nerfed way too late are mostly 1vX tools. And this is what likely chased players away.

Dark Convergence. Hrothgars. Plaguebreak. Maras Balm. Rush of Agony. Aren't these the sets that came out around the same time as U35 and are responsible for so much distress? Vicious death which of course has been around forever but was especially problematic with occult overload?

And then of course the resounding sentiment becomes "yea, but THOSE 1vX tools were being used BY groups," which really just circles back to my point.

1vX tools are brokenly strong because how could you possibly have effectiveness that scales with your number of opponents and that not make the tool OP and abused in certain scenarios? The old mist form, which you liked so much. Terrible.

Anything, used by the X against the 1, is going to be strong. It doesn't matter if it's a 1vX tool or a Xv1 tool. At least things that effect 1 person don't ever become disproportionately strong.

If you're fighting 10 people and one of them is just religiously defiling the crap out of you while another two are just healing the pants off their teammates while two sorcs freecast on you and some NB over there is pewpewing... Well I mean you just lose then don't you? Looks like they knew what they were doing. You can complain all you want about the terrible templar standing in the back spamming beam on you from safety. But the templar is just being a templar. He doesn't know the weird rules you insist on playing by-- where you seek out mismatched fights for the challenge, but expect a certain amount of civility. Like maybe they should line up and duel you one at a time, right?

Thats all I have to say about that. I have no idea why you even brought up ballgroups. Are you out there Xing ballgroups?

PhoenixGrey

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes, block healing is basically what everyone does and why nobody dies and how everyone goes from zero to hero in a single button press.

If you like that crap then good for you. There's no reason to argue about a stupid monster set when obviously we disagree on a much more fundamental issue.

I'm tired of deathmatches timing out instead of concluding. I'm tired of duels lasting 5 minutes. I'm tired of NBs, DKs, and Wardens coming completely back to life with one block-heal.

I get it. Some people like to X. These overpowered heals are what make it possible. This set will hurt Xing. What about EVERYTHING else? For the love of God look at the bigger picture.

Youda rather they nerfed all healing by 20%? Easy for you to say now. I think if that were coming down the pipe we'd have many more threads than this, encouraged by the exact same people, talking about how THAT would hurt Xers.

Everybody on these forums is a PvP god who doesn't care about the little guy. It gets so tiring hearing the same perspective about topic after topic after topic.

Imagine being able to routinely kill groups of players and worrying about a single *** monster set.

"Why don't new people come to PvP?" LOL.

They need to just pull the plug on the game tbh it's too old and all the die hards long since stopped caring about campaign score, big siege battles, or anything at all except fighting. Objectives are just a thing to farm on, or worse, an inconvenient distraction from what you think the game actually is.

I can't with this discussion right now. If the set is so good just friggin use it yourself. "Oh no I would never use it, it's an Xv1 tool and I'm the 1." Yeah-- got it-- you kill people in less than 5 seconds so why would you ever need something that takes this long to make a noticable impact?

How 10 people using their skills, gear, and whatever to grind down and kill 1 people is a problem for you, but one person killing 10 doesn't even hint at imbalance to you... I'll just never understand. Seems like ego to me.

This post is golden. I’ve always said that these “elite” PVPers don’t want balance they just want to be OP and win against everyone else.

“How dare people group up in a GROUP PVP ZONE? Those skill-less noobs nerf cross healing etc”

They shame people for grouping up and playing the way cyrodil was intended. first it was the evil soulless zergs, now it the unfair ball group. These people won’t stop until Cyrodil is either a giant 1v1 arena or a zone or where only new players can join just so they can live their 1vX dream

I've always wondered if Cyrodiil wouldn't be better off if all of these leet 1vXers that passionately defend their broken crutch builds in the forums followed through with their threats and actually quit the game. Their playstyle is enjoyable for 1 person: themselves, and their behavior when finally brought down is among the most toxic I've experienced. I have a collection of screenshots of hate whispers from these players that usually go something like, "<expletive deleted> zergling come 1v1 me" or complaining about something like defile/Fossilize/Meteor that they feel is cheese while they've been crutching on OP heals cheese the entire fight. They're almost as bad as cloaking NBs when they die.

Cyrodil would definitely be better if these players leave they don’t contribute to the campaign, capture keeps or take keep resources and if they do take keep resources then it’s only to tower farm and waste everyones time. They simply troll people thinking that they are good

This is typically 1-5% of players.

Not sure what kind of difference will it make to the campaign

PhoenixGrey

OBJnoob wrote: »

Misleading how? Block healing isn't strong? Healing isn't OP? Meta players don't struggle to kill eachother?

You can blame Xv1 tools if you want to, whatever definition you have of that exactly. It seems to me like the bad ideas that plague this game until they end up getting nerfed way too late are mostly 1vX tools. And this is what likely chased players away.

Dark Convergence. Hrothgars. Plaguebreak. Maras Balm. Rush of Agony. Aren't these the sets that came out around the same time as U35 and are responsible for so much distress? Vicious death which of course has been around forever but was especially problematic with occult overload?

And then of course the resounding sentiment becomes "yea, but THOSE 1vX tools were being used BY groups," which really just circles back to my point.

1vX tools are brokenly strong because how could you possibly have effectiveness that scales with your number of opponents and that not make the tool OP and abused in certain scenarios? The old mist form, which you liked so much. Terrible.

Anything, used by the X against the 1, is going to be strong. It doesn't matter if it's a 1vX tool or a Xv1 tool. At least things that effect 1 person don't ever become disproportionately strong.

If you're fighting 10 people and one of them is just religiously defiling the crap out of you while another two are just healing the pants off their teammates while two sorcs freecast on you and some NB over there is pewpewing... Well I mean you just lose then don't you? Looks like they knew what they were doing. You can complain all you want about the terrible templar standing in the back spamming beam on you from safety. But the templar is just being a templar. He doesn't know the weird rules you insist on playing by-- where you seek out mismatched fights for the challenge, but expect a certain amount of civility. Like maybe they should line up and duel you one at a time, right?

Thats all I have to say about that. I have no idea why you even brought up ballgroups. Are you out there Xing ballgroups?

I think you seem to have the wrong idea on what I m talking about

Not sure what’s wrong in a set /skill which scales in effectiveness to the number of opponents
If you are saying such a set /skill can be abused by groups as well, the set /skill is not well designed

Not sure why you mention Dark convergence or hrothgar’s chill which are typical xv1 sets

It looks like your idea of game balance is about numbers always should win. Is there any point playing if I already know the outcome ?

OBJnoob

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Misleading how? Block healing isn't strong? Healing isn't OP? Meta players don't struggle to kill eachother?

You can blame Xv1 tools if you want to, whatever definition you have of that exactly. It seems to me like the bad ideas that plague this game until they end up getting nerfed way too late are mostly 1vX tools. And this is what likely chased players away.

Dark Convergence. Hrothgars. Plaguebreak. Maras Balm. Rush of Agony. Aren't these the sets that came out around the same time as U35 and are responsible for so much distress? Vicious death which of course has been around forever but was especially problematic with occult overload?

And then of course the resounding sentiment becomes "yea, but THOSE 1vX tools were being used BY groups," which really just circles back to my point.

1vX tools are brokenly strong because how could you possibly have effectiveness that scales with your number of opponents and that not make the tool OP and abused in certain scenarios? The old mist form, which you liked so much. Terrible.

Anything, used by the X against the 1, is going to be strong. It doesn't matter if it's a 1vX tool or a Xv1 tool. At least things that effect 1 person don't ever become disproportionately strong.

If you're fighting 10 people and one of them is just religiously defiling the crap out of you while another two are just healing the pants off their teammates while two sorcs freecast on you and some NB over there is pewpewing... Well I mean you just lose then don't you? Looks like they knew what they were doing. You can complain all you want about the terrible templar standing in the back spamming beam on you from safety. But the templar is just being a templar. He doesn't know the weird rules you insist on playing by-- where you seek out mismatched fights for the challenge, but expect a certain amount of civility. Like maybe they should line up and duel you one at a time, right?

Thats all I have to say about that. I have no idea why you even brought up ballgroups. Are you out there Xing ballgroups?

I think you seem to have the wrong idea on what I m talking about

Not sure what’s wrong in a set /skill which scales in effectiveness to the number of opponents
If you are saying such a set /skill can be abused by groups as well, the set /skill is not well designed

Not sure why you mention Dark convergence or hrothgar’s chill which are typical xv1 sets

It looks like your idea of game balance is about numbers always should win. Is there any point playing if I already know the outcome ?

See that's my point exactly. I'm glad you're helping me honestly because I don't feel like I'm doing a great job myself.

You call Dark Convergence a Xv1 tool. It's obviously the opposite of that. It's at worst a group v group tool and at best a 1vX tool. But sure, groups use it, and it can hurt you as a solo player also. A fine example of how anything used by 10 can be strong against 1 so there's no point worrying about it.

I'm not saying numbers should always win. I'm saying you're either good enough to X or not. Layering yourself with skills and gear that exponentially increases in power depending on how many people you're fighting-- while somehow limiting what they wear-- just diminishes the accomplishment. Why on earth would we try to balance the game where 1 person, who otherwise wouldn't, has a fighting chance against greater numbers? I mean that's not Xing at all. That's crutching on broken mechanics and better gear.

Which is fine. Knowing what gear to wear is part of the skill in this game. And there is still room for outplaying people of lesser skill, lesser gear, lesser game knowledge or some combination thereof. But if you encounter a group of people that you are better than, but they happen to be wearing good gear and using it effectively, then maybe you can't quite X them. It's nothing to be ashamed of, upset about, or cry for change over. You just picked the wrong group. They turned out to be halfway decent-- though admittedly not as good as you probably-- but they had more numbers and won. That IS kinda the way it should be. There'll still be large groups that can be Xed, both wearing this monster set and not wearing it, because some people are just really bad and some people are really good. The really good players don't need uplifting. You can complain about raising the floor if you want to, but don't blame every little decent piece of gear. Healing is stupid strong right now. Tools against it are needed. And trying to balance anything where 1=5 is an obvious exercise in futility which normally results in groups using that as well... Cuz it's stupid strong, duh.

PhoenixGrey

OBJnoob wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Misleading how? Block healing isn't strong? Healing isn't OP? Meta players don't struggle to kill eachother?

You can blame Xv1 tools if you want to, whatever definition you have of that exactly. It seems to me like the bad ideas that plague this game until they end up getting nerfed way too late are mostly 1vX tools. And this is what likely chased players away.

Dark Convergence. Hrothgars. Plaguebreak. Maras Balm. Rush of Agony. Aren't these the sets that came out around the same time as U35 and are responsible for so much distress? Vicious death which of course has been around forever but was especially problematic with occult overload?

And then of course the resounding sentiment becomes "yea, but THOSE 1vX tools were being used BY groups," which really just circles back to my point.

1vX tools are brokenly strong because how could you possibly have effectiveness that scales with your number of opponents and that not make the tool OP and abused in certain scenarios? The old mist form, which you liked so much. Terrible.

Anything, used by the X against the 1, is going to be strong. It doesn't matter if it's a 1vX tool or a Xv1 tool. At least things that effect 1 person don't ever become disproportionately strong.

If you're fighting 10 people and one of them is just religiously defiling the crap out of you while another two are just healing the pants off their teammates while two sorcs freecast on you and some NB over there is pewpewing... Well I mean you just lose then don't you? Looks like they knew what they were doing. You can complain all you want about the terrible templar standing in the back spamming beam on you from safety. But the templar is just being a templar. He doesn't know the weird rules you insist on playing by-- where you seek out mismatched fights for the challenge, but expect a certain amount of civility. Like maybe they should line up and duel you one at a time, right?

Thats all I have to say about that. I have no idea why you even brought up ballgroups. Are you out there Xing ballgroups?

I think you seem to have the wrong idea on what I m talking about

Not sure what’s wrong in a set /skill which scales in effectiveness to the number of opponents
If you are saying such a set /skill can be abused by groups as well, the set /skill is not well designed

Not sure why you mention Dark convergence or hrothgar’s chill which are typical xv1 sets

It looks like your idea of game balance is about numbers always should win. Is there any point playing if I already know the outcome ?

See that's my point exactly. I'm glad you're helping me honestly because I don't feel like I'm doing a great job myself.

You call Dark Convergence a Xv1 tool. It's obviously the opposite of that. It's at worst a group v group tool and at best a 1vX tool. But sure, groups use it, and it can hurt you as a solo player also. A fine example of how anything used by 10 can be strong against 1 so there's no point worrying about it.

I'm not saying numbers should always win. I'm saying you're either good enough to X or not. Layering yourself with skills and gear that exponentially increases in power depending on how many people you're fighting-- while somehow limiting what they wear-- just diminishes the accomplishment. Why on earth would we try to balance the game where 1 person, who otherwise wouldn't, has a fighting chance against greater numbers? I mean that's not Xing at all. That's crutching on broken mechanics and better gear.

Which is fine. Knowing what gear to wear is part of the skill in this game. And there is still room for outplaying people of lesser skill, lesser gear, lesser game knowledge or some combination thereof. But if you encounter a group of people that you are better than, but they happen to be wearing good gear and using it effectively, then maybe you can't quite X them. It's nothing to be ashamed of, upset about, or cry for change over. You just picked the wrong group. They turned out to be halfway decent-- though admittedly not as good as you probably-- but they had more numbers and won. That IS kinda the way it should be. There'll still be large groups that can be Xed, both wearing this monster set and not wearing it, because some people are just really bad and some people are really good. The really good players don't need uplifting. You can complain about raising the floor if you want to, but don't blame every little decent piece of gear. Healing is stupid strong right now. Tools against it are needed. And trying to balance anything where 1=5 is an obvious exercise in futility which normally results in groups using that as well... Cuz it's stupid strong, duh.

You realize dark convergence was nerfed right which is why I call it an xv1 tool now

I agree with healing nerfs across the board as long as cross healing is nerfed more than self healing

Why do you need an advantage of that set when you are in a group ? You are already in a group and that should be good enough

Why do you want to raise the floor? It’s low enough as it is and this set is a fine example of that

If you wanna talk about limiting accomplishment, raise the ceiling instead. The higher the ceiling the harder x’ing becomes for some and the easier it gets for a select few. I don’t think anyone should have a problem with that

OBJnoob

Well I'm glad we agree on something. Healing needs nerfed. Well this is a tool to combat healing. I realize it isn't what some of you wanted, because it's single target, but it'll open up counterplay in certain areas and help bring a conclusion to stalemates. At the expense of Xing perhaps. I mean I do see your point, even as strongly as I disagree. I'd like to think you see mine as well but I'm not sure you do, LOL.

The thing is though that the game badly needs balancing in 1v1 scenarios. Class disparity and blockhealing in particular are very troublesome right now.

So I mean, how many ways to play are there? Dueling. Battlegrounds. Group v Group. 1vX. Xv1. I think this monster set is very good for dueling, good for BGs, irrelevant for group v group, might be good for 1vX but probably better options out there, and yes probably useful Xv1.

I call that a net positive. Not a huge one, but because it so pointedly addresses something I find problematic (healing,) I support it. And admittedly I don't worry so much about the Xers because if anybody can handle a little nerf that helps the rest of the game then surely it's the best players.

I think the worry factor is being blown out of proportion. We're talking about the Xed as though they're on the forums and PTS every day working on their setups and equipping the best gear. Most of them have no idea this is even coming. Most of them will never wear it. Most of them are so bad it won't matter what they're wearing. And you know that's right.

PhoenixGrey

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well I'm glad we agree on something. Healing needs nerfed. Well this is a tool to combat healing. I realize it isn't what some of you wanted, because it's single target, but it'll open up counterplay in certain areas and help bring a conclusion to stalemates. At the expense of Xing perhaps. I mean I do see your point, even as strongly as I disagree. I'd like to think you see mine as well but I'm not sure you do, LOL.

The thing is though that the game badly needs balancing in 1v1 scenarios. Class disparity and blockhealing in particular are very troublesome right now.

So I mean, how many ways to play are there? Dueling. Battlegrounds. Group v Group. 1vX. Xv1. I think this monster set is very good for dueling, good for BGs, irrelevant for group v group, might be good for 1vX but probably better options out there, and yes probably useful Xv1.

I call that a net positive. Not a huge one, but because it so pointedly addresses something I find problematic (healing,) I support it. And admittedly I don't worry so much about the Xers because if anybody can handle a little nerf that helps the rest of the game then surely it's the best players.

I think the worry factor is being blown out of proportion. We're talking about the Xed as though they're on the forums and PTS every day working on their setups and equipping the best gear. Most of them have no idea this is even coming. Most of them will never wear it. Most of them are so bad it won't matter what they're wearing. And you know that's right.

1v1 is not a realistic pvp scenario. I don’t know why we want to even think about balancing it.

OBJnoob

Duels exist. Whether or not 1v1s happen frequently elsewhere is kinda beside the point. 1v1 is exactly how the game needs to balance, lol, that way when you kill 3 you have something to brag about. Every 1 NB needs to roughly equal every 1 sorc. Every 1 class delayed burst needs to roughly equal another classes 1 delayed burst. Every 1 offensive 5-piece needs to roughly equal every other 1 offensive 5-piece.

Now this isn't the case obviously, but it should be what we're working towards. And even in that, there is room for certain things to perform slightly better on certain classes. And some NB skills can be better than some sorc skills-- as long as some sorc skills outperform some NB skills as well and there is roughly an overall tie.

It's so weird I have to actually say this. I thought we all knew this. I thought we all knew what balance meant. I've been reading these forums for years and it seems like this is everyones goal. Why is it not your goal Phoenix?

PhoenixGrey

OBJnoob wrote: »

Duels exist. Whether or not 1v1s happen frequently elsewhere is kinda beside the point. 1v1 is exactly how the game needs to balance, lol, that way when you kill 3 you have something to brag about. Every 1 NB needs to roughly equal every 1 sorc. Every 1 class delayed burst needs to roughly equal another classes 1 delayed burst. Every 1 offensive 5-piece needs to roughly equal every other 1 offensive 5-piece.

Now this isn't the case obviously, but it should be what we're working towards. And even in that, there is room for certain things to perform slightly better on certain classes. And some NB skills can be better than some sorc skills-- as long as some sorc skills outperform some NB skills as well and there is roughly an overall tie.

It's so weird I have to actually say this. I thought we all knew this. I thought we all knew what balance meant. I've been reading these forums for years and it seems like this is everyones goal. Why is it not your goal Phoenix?

Well, the idea of balance is usually a personal viewpoint. Mine or even ZOS's view of balance is not something everyone agrees on so you are right. That is not my goal

OBJnoob

@PhoenixGrey That's fair. Good talk. I know I normally type a lot so my brevity might come off as sarcasm. It's not.

I respect that.