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Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak
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ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »
As much as I would be delighted to. I am on console. Just leaves me wondering if you're so experienced, how do you struggle with fighting cloaking nightblades with the counters provided. All you need is camo hunter it's not that hard
Let me help you out there. He probably struggles as much as you or anyone would if we took the ramping cost off of streak. Just think about that for a second. They both have counters that can be slotted etc but the point is that something that as a skill offers such a strong effect should be limited in its ability to be spammed.
It's just about game balance. Also if cloak became unusable after the change I'd be all for reverting but it should at least be tried.
Yea this. Remember when Streak had no ramping cost and people could chain Streak for days even with gap closers slotted?
Why did Streak get a ramping cost but Cloak didn’t lol? It makes no sense when 2 abilities are similar in function.
I remember when streak had 50% cost increase, mag sorcs used to spam it just like now. yeah it got better for stam sorcs a little but I dont think ramping cost is a good penalty even on streak, I think it should get a reduce travel distance penalty instead.
And again Streak and Cloak are not the same thing. Streak is a teleport ability and Cloak gives invisibility and I gave you multiple examples when I last quoted you.
When you use Streak you teleport 15 meters and stun everything in your way and there is nothing that can make you drop at 6 meters so you get what you pressed for 100% of the time. Streak does what it promises to do, but still if 1 out of 5 runs gap closer you get 4 less players on you. And when you use Cloak, things can break it instanlty either randomly or intentionally, so basically you can waste your resource and dont get what you pressed for.StaticWave wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.
And only 1 of them is actually reliable enough to be used, which is Detect Potions, which just recently got buffed. Even then, you are wasting 45s of better potions like Tripots or Armor pots, or an entire skill slot that has no use out side of countering 1 class that so happens to be obnoxiously common in Cyrodiil PvP
Meanwhile, Streak and Mist Form are easily countered by slotting a gap closer, which also has multiple uses outside of countering Streak and Mist users (for example, Rushing Agony with Stampede is widely used to bomb zergs). Heck, even sprinting is sufficient to counter a Streak/Mist user. I mean just look at this video where I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting.
https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
Not true. You are not wasting 45 seconds. The new buff to pots is awful. If you can't kill the nb when you reveal them then that's on bad players.
Asking for yet another nerf to cloak is absurd.
Most nbs hiding in stealth and using cloak are squishy like glass. [snip]
Nobody's saying anything about not being able to kill squishy NBs. Don't use a strawman argument against me dude.
My argument is the counters for Streak/Mist are more effective and require less sacrifice than the counters for Cloak. Movement speed is abundant and easy to get without sacrificing a lot, and gap closer is useful for all scenarios, not just against Streak. Meanwhile, a detect potion is only useful against NB, and I have to sacrifice Major Prophecy because I'm getting it from pots. Camo Hunter/Inner Light is only useful against NB and don't even work most of the time. I can use a gap closer to chase someone down, or use it with Rushing Agony or other sets to deal extra damage. I can't do that with Camo Hunter/Inner Light.
Cloak needs a ramping cost, and it's long overdue. If you can't play a NB without Cloak, then I could say it's something you need to improve on.
[edited to remove quote]
Straw man argument? I haven't heard a single reason yet that justifies what you all are asking for. I might be wrong but don't you post different daily nerf posts?
If your saying you have no trouble killing nbs then why are you asking for a nerf? Survive the opening. Pop a detect pot, mage light, camo hunter, or any or the other nerfs in game. How exactly is the nb getting away? Especially if it's a detect pot? You can literally see them anywhere. Streak towards/through them and they dead.
Straw man argument? You mean like saying you shouldn't have to use the most powerful counter because you have to wait 45 seconds to use another? Like seriously. That's as strawman as it gets.
You straw manned me by saying it's a L2P issue to kill squishy NBs. Did I ever say anything about having difficulty killing squishy NBs?
The argument is about Cloak. You don't need to be a squishy NB to use Cloak. I can be in 30k resistance with 3.4k crit resist and still be able to use Cloak. Now I'm much harder to kill, and I can also disappear when I want. That's what many brawlerblades will be doing next patch with Cloak buff.
I'm sorry, but people like you add to the problem. Using strawman arguments to make yours appear more credible is a shameful tactic to try shutting down a legitimate balance request.
This is laughable. You post daily nerf threads. I have seen one of them be close to reasonable. There is one person spamming for nerfs daily. And it's not me.
I made a thread about Relequen being broken and it got a bunch of backlash. Guess what? Now everyone is realizing it's broken.
Most of my threads are legitimate complaints. I am also open to discussion, but people just don't want to discuss.
Agree to disagree. As do most others to your posts. They are centered around all classes but your own. Hence the large amount of feedback you get to l2p. Sorry man, but it is what it is. You are entitled to your opinions but if you post that amount expect not to be taken seriously. [snip]
Clearly Zos feels its underperforming, which I disagree with, and is buffing it. Which is too bad as I feel it's fine the way it is.
The compromise should be to cancel the buff and leave it alone.
Or maybe, just maybe, the vast majority of the forums are casual players and don’t experience the same thing I do?
It’s pretty bold to claim I have a l2p issue when I could probably out-experience the vast majority of them in a fight, not being toxic here.
Please step foot in Stormhaven or BG and fight the players I’m fighting. [snip]
[snip]
Because I am lol. Not the best, but very experienced in my class and experienced enough to talk about PvP. Idc if you think otherwise, there are plenty of people on the forums who can confirm that.
If you or anyone doubt, I’m always dueling in Stormhaven on PC NA and would love a challenge. I also do BGs so queue up too while you’re at it.
As much as I would be delighted to. I am on console. Just leaves me wondering if you're so experienced, how do you struggle with fighting cloaking nightblades with the counters provided. All you need is camo hunter it's not that hard
Streak counters are much more reliable. You see someone streak, you hit gap close and be right up on their butt.
I dont agree with this at all !!
1 out of 10 players might run gap closer these days, and because gap closers are generally bad and heavily punishable due to the animation lock I dont see good players run it. that 1/10 are mostly bad players that can be easily picked off when they chase far from their group. if you cant kill them simply use a 180 degree Streak to stun and before they break and turn you are 2-3 streaks away from them and they cant gap close anymore.
on the other hand any direct damage can break Cloak. there are skill dedicated to breaking it, if only one player actively use flare you are done for. when I use potion 9/10 blades that I'm chasing die and that's a huge counter. Now you say running detect pot is a sacrifice for you, I can say the same for running gap closer. I have to give up one skill to only counter one class? thats a bigger sacrifice than changing your pot for 40seconds if you ask me.
But the biggest difference is if one person runs gap closer then there is one that you have to worry about but if one person has active detect pot or any kind of detection or has any possible way to reveal you, they can break your Cloak for everyone.
[edited to remove quote]
Most accept that the counter is there to counter streak and chose not to. But zos gives us the option.
This whole discussion sounds like it stems from well my class identity skill was nerfed so I want others nerfed too. You cannot compare the two. The overall kit is different.4 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »JerBearESO wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »DrNukenstein wrote: »Ramping cost needs to be paired with the first second being unbreakable, in addition there's an argument for making it possible to roll or sprint while cloaked if a ramping cost gets introduced.
Most arguments against a ramping cost are tied to how easy it is to break cloak. Most arguments for a ramping cost ignore that almost anything other than self only buffs (not heals, except rally and sated frenzy) and walking will take you out of cloak.
This. I'm all for the ramping costm as long as it last 5 seconds and it cant be broken or grants snare/ immobilization immunity
This actually becomes perfectly balanced IF we add in two conditions.
1. Create an area on stealth wherein if you leave it you unstealth early.
2. Taking direct damage flashes some kind of untargetable indicator of the users position
You guys can't be serious. Lasts five second and can't be broken ??? yeah, alright maybe if the cost increase is 500% and the penalty lasts for 8 seconds otherwise, you'd never see the effects of a ramp up cost and you would get a better cloak. Never mind you guys also want it to give snare immunity aswell. Absolutely ridiculous.
This is my last comment on this thread, [snip]
[edited for rude/insulting comment]StaticWave wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »JerBearESO wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »DrNukenstein wrote: »Ramping cost needs to be paired with the first second being unbreakable, in addition there's an argument for making it possible to roll or sprint while cloaked if a ramping cost gets introduced.
Most arguments against a ramping cost are tied to how easy it is to break cloak. Most arguments for a ramping cost ignore that almost anything other than self only buffs (not heals, except rally and sated frenzy) and walking will take you out of cloak.
This. I'm all for the ramping costm as long as it last 5 seconds and it cant be broken or grants snare/ immobilization immunity
This actually becomes perfectly balanced IF we add in two conditions.
1. Create an area on stealth wherein if you leave it you unstealth early.
2. Taking direct damage flashes some kind of untargetable indicator of the users position
You guys can't be serious. Lasts five second and can't be broken ??? yeah, alright maybe if the cost increase is 500% and the penalty lasts for 8 seconds otherwise, you'd never see the effects of a ramp up cost and you would get a better cloak. Never mind you guys also want it to give snare immunity aswell. Absolutely ridiculous.
This is my last comment on this thread, [snip]
Yea I'm about to be done here too lmao. Ball of Lightning getting gutted is okay but god forbid anyone touches Cloak. I also play cloak NB and I don't have the same issue they're having
[edited to remove quote]
[snip]
Literally no one in this thread is saying the nerf to ball of lightning is okay.
And again no one is having trouble playing nb. The only ones in here having trouble are those asking for nerfs apparently.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Kraken on 18 July 2023 15:163 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Defending Cloak is a dead giveaway that you're crutching on the ability. Top tier NBs do just fine without Cloak and will see how over tuned it is as a defensive skill. I and several top tier NBs on this forum can 1vX on NB without needing Cloak, so slotting it next patch will just make us even harder to kill.
If Cloak doesn't get the nerf it deserve, then I want Streak to have no ramping cost. It's only fair if it is that way.
Ty. I was right. You just stated ramping costs are not a good thing and that you want nerfs because sorc got nerfs. Perfect way to balance.
Ty zos for looking at facts and data when making your decisions.3 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »
Now again I'm looking at back to back use. In either case if you space it out then so be it, no penalty and fair play
I'm just trying to clarify for the sake of the thread that we're not talking about normal use of a skill here, we're specifically talking about being able to spam said skills and why it's worth having safeguards on both of these skills when being able to spam them leads to possibly overperforming evasion ability.
Great, use CamoHunter and they cant spam it anymore, use potion and watch them effortlessly spam it. When we have an skill that can disable Streak we can talk about pushing Cloak through Streak's balance route. Until then learn how to reveal blades and you will get rewarded for it by blocking their "Overperforming Evasion Ability" for 4 seconds.
Everybody knows Camo Hunter can reveal NBs. People are also telling you that Camo Hunter doesn’t work as well in countering Cloak.
Telling people to “learn” something when they already know it is condescending. What makes you think they don’t know how to do that already? Instead of derailing the topic why don’t we start focusing on the problem raised at hand.
Did you miss the part that I said I've been using CamoHunter without any problem to reveal blades?
also said the only problem is the cost, otherwise never had a problem with it. or do you want a free Get F'ed Cloak skill with 100% success rate with no effort? We are paying 4k Mag for each cast you know?StaticWave wrote: »Defending Cloak is a dead giveaway that you're crutching on the ability. Top tier NBs do just fine without Cloak and will see how over tuned it is as a defensive skill. I and several top tier NBs on this forum can 1vX on NB without needing Cloak, so slotting it next patch will just make us even harder to kill.
If Cloak doesn't get the nerf it deserve, then I want Streak to have no ramping cost. It's only fair if it is that way.
The first thing I learned on blade was that crutching on Cloak gets you killed. All I've been saying was that Cloak and Streak are two different abilities with different functions and different counters.
My sincere apology to you and All top tier 1vXing NBs in this forum if I find Cloak easy to counter.
NBs on PC NA are fast while in Cloak, so Camo Hunter doesn’t even work most of the time. I can’t count how many times I pop Camo Hunter just a few meters from the NB and still don’t remove them stealth.
As I’ve said multiple times, there’s a thing called location desync, so the 8m range is not enough to pull fast NBs out of cloak.
The only thing reliable right now is detect potion after it received the 43m range buff. But I’m also wasting a whole 45s potion just for 15s of detection. If the NB simply just fights back until time expires, they don’t have to worry about being detected for another 30s.
Compare that to Streak which can be passively countered by stacking movement speed (which is laughably easy to get), I don’t see why Cloak shouldn’t get a ramping cost. At the very least, increase the range of Camo Hunter to 12m and Evil Hunter to 15m to justify the cost of using it.
I Dont wanna be "condescending" and all but I wanna explain it for those who dont know. Well here is how I use CamoHunter, when I see a NB gonna use Cloak (usually when they are under pressure) I cast CamoHunter and stay close to them and its easy since "movement speed is laughably easy to get", that Breaks their Cloak immediately 70% of the time. if that blade is any good will notice that and wont use Cloak but either way I get to keep the pressure up. now lets say 30% they get away, since they cant sprint in Cloak its a huge adventage for you, read their movement correctly you can easily catch them and break their Cloak.
it should not be hard to read a NBs movement at least if you have mind of a "Top tier Nightblade".
Yea that sounds good on paper but there are 2 things inaccurate with your statement, specifically about the 30% of players who do get away:
1) You’re assuming the NB is predictable enough to move in a straight line
2) You assume that the NB doesn’t just turn around and counter burst
I won’t talk about the bad NBs that just move in a straight line. I’m talking about the good ones that pick the other 3 directions. You have a 1 in 3 chance of picking the correct direction. Compare that with Streak and tell me why I have to play a guessing game to counter 1 ability whereas I can just hit 1 gap closer and be on someone’s arse non stop.
This is not to mention good NBs would not use Cloak defensively but rather offensively and counter burst when you are chasing them with sprint. I have done this many times on my cloak NB by going into stealth and pretending to run away, then drop a fat Incap while they’re chasing.
Cloak when used correctly is much stronger than Streak. As a stamsorc main who also plays NB, I will gladly trade Streak for Cloak. I have no issue surviving without Streak so having Cloak will provide me more utility than Streak could ever do.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc2 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »
Why not revert streak nerf instead of nerfing cloak ?
So in a way this is actually a great question. Currently streak gameplay is useful but still requires mildly correct usage to not end up running out of mag or streaks when you need them. This is good because it allows for counterplay even when you don't have a gap closer slotted because you know that the enemy is somewhat limited in the amount of streaks back to back.
If you removed that barrier sorcs would still die from time to time but there would be a lot more running troll builds, leading chases from keep to keep, running EG, etc. It doesn't sound all that bad but if enough people do it, combat could become even more annoying.
Combat should strive to be more thoughtful and rewarding and not just have a bunch of people having powerful skills repeatedly available at a low repeating cost.
I know the outcome looks stupid
But you consider all the unbalanced stuff in the game today streak buff or cloak still wouldn’t feature anywhere in the list
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StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Defending Cloak is a dead giveaway that you're crutching on the ability. Top tier NBs do just fine without Cloak and will see how over tuned it is as a defensive skill. I and several top tier NBs on this forum can 1vX on NB without needing Cloak, so slotting it next patch will just make us even harder to kill.
If Cloak doesn't get the nerf it deserve, then I want Streak to have no ramping cost. It's only fair if it is that way.
Ty. I was right. You just stated ramping costs are not a good thing and that you want nerfs because sorc got nerfs. Perfect way to balance.
Ty zos for looking at facts and data when making your decisions.
No, ramping cost is a good thing. [snip]
I said if Cloak doesn’t get a ramping cost, then Streak shouldn’t too because it would be FAIR. Not once did I say ramping cost is bad.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Kraken on 18 July 2023 16:50Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc1 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »
As much as I would be delighted to. I am on console. Just leaves me wondering if you're so experienced, how do you struggle with fighting cloaking nightblades with the counters provided. All you need is camo hunter it's not that hard
Let me help you out there. He probably struggles as much as you or anyone would if we took the ramping cost off of streak. Just think about that for a second. They both have counters that can be slotted etc but the point is that something that as a skill offers such a strong effect should be limited in its ability to be spammed.
It's just about game balance. Also if cloak became unusable after the change I'd be all for reverting but it should at least be tried.
Yea this. Remember when Streak had no ramping cost and people could chain Streak for days even with gap closers slotted?
Why did Streak get a ramping cost but Cloak didn’t lol? It makes no sense when 2 abilities are similar in function.
I remember when streak had 50% cost increase, mag sorcs used to spam it just like now. yeah it got better for stam sorcs a little but I dont think ramping cost is a good penalty even on streak, I think it should get a reduce travel distance penalty instead.
And again Streak and Cloak are not the same thing. Streak is a teleport ability and Cloak gives invisibility and I gave you multiple examples when I last quoted you.
When you use Streak you teleport 15 meters and stun everything in your way and there is nothing that can make you drop at 6 meters so you get what you pressed for 100% of the time. Streak does what it promises to do, but still if 1 out of 5 runs gap closer you get 4 less players on you. And when you use Cloak, things can break it instanlty either randomly or intentionally, so basically you can waste your resource and dont get what you pressed for.StaticWave wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.
And only 1 of them is actually reliable enough to be used, which is Detect Potions, which just recently got buffed. Even then, you are wasting 45s of better potions like Tripots or Armor pots, or an entire skill slot that has no use out side of countering 1 class that so happens to be obnoxiously common in Cyrodiil PvP
Meanwhile, Streak and Mist Form are easily countered by slotting a gap closer, which also has multiple uses outside of countering Streak and Mist users (for example, Rushing Agony with Stampede is widely used to bomb zergs). Heck, even sprinting is sufficient to counter a Streak/Mist user. I mean just look at this video where I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting.https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
Not true. You are not wasting 45 seconds. The new buff to pots is awful. If you can't kill the nb when you reveal them then that's on bad players.
Asking for yet another nerf to cloak is absurd.
Most nbs hiding in stealth and using cloak are squishy like glass. [snip]
Nobody's saying anything about not being able to kill squishy NBs. Don't use a strawman argument against me dude.
My argument is the counters for Streak/Mist are more effective and require less sacrifice than the counters for Cloak. Movement speed is abundant and easy to get without sacrificing a lot, and gap closer is useful for all scenarios, not just against Streak. Meanwhile, a detect potion is only useful against NB, and I have to sacrifice Major Prophecy because I'm getting it from pots. Camo Hunter/Inner Light is only useful against NB and don't even work most of the time. I can use a gap closer to chase someone down, or use it with Rushing Agony or other sets to deal extra damage. I can't do that with Camo Hunter/Inner Light.
Cloak needs a ramping cost, and it's long overdue. If you can't play a NB without Cloak, then I could say it's something you need to improve on.
[edited to remove quote]
Straw man argument? I haven't heard a single reason yet that justifies what you all are asking for. I might be wrong but don't you post different daily nerf posts?
If your saying you have no trouble killing nbs then why are you asking for a nerf? Survive the opening. Pop a detect pot, mage light, camo hunter, or any or the other nerfs in game. How exactly is the nb getting away? Especially if it's a detect pot? You can literally see them anywhere. Streak towards/through them and they dead.
Straw man argument? You mean like saying you shouldn't have to use the most powerful counter because you have to wait 45 seconds to use another? Like seriously. That's as strawman as it gets.
You straw manned me by saying it's a L2P issue to kill squishy NBs. Did I ever say anything about having difficulty killing squishy NBs?
The argument is about Cloak. You don't need to be a squishy NB to use Cloak. I can be in 30k resistance with 3.4k crit resist and still be able to use Cloak. Now I'm much harder to kill, and I can also disappear when I want. That's what many brawlerblades will be doing next patch with Cloak buff.
I'm sorry, but people like you add to the problem. Using strawman arguments to make yours appear more credible is a shameful tactic to try shutting down a legitimate balance request.
This is laughable. You post daily nerf threads. I have seen one of them be close to reasonable. There is one person spamming for nerfs daily. And it's not me.
I made a thread about Relequen being broken and it got a bunch of backlash. Guess what? Now everyone is realizing it's broken.
Most of my threads are legitimate complaints. I am also open to discussion, but people just don't want to discuss.
Agree to disagree. As do most others to your posts. They are centered around all classes but your own. Hence the large amount of feedback you get to l2p. Sorry man, but it is what it is. You are entitled to your opinions but if you post that amount expect not to be taken seriously. [snip]
Clearly Zos feels its underperforming, which I disagree with, and is buffing it. Which is too bad as I feel it's fine the way it is.
The compromise should be to cancel the buff and leave it alone.
Or maybe, just maybe, the vast majority of the forums are casual players and don’t experience the same thing I do?
It’s pretty bold to claim I have a l2p issue when I could probably out-experience the vast majority of them in a fight, not being toxic here.
Please step foot in Stormhaven or BG and fight the players I’m fighting. [snip]
[snip]
Because I am lol. Not the best, but very experienced in my class and experienced enough to talk about PvP. Idc if you think otherwise, there are plenty of people on the forums who can confirm that.
If you or anyone doubt, I’m always dueling in Stormhaven on PC NA and would love a challenge. I also do BGs so queue up too while you’re at it.
As much as I would be delighted to. I am on console. Just leaves me wondering if you're so experienced, how do you struggle with fighting cloaking nightblades with the counters provided. All you need is camo hunter it's not that hard
Streak counters are much more reliable. You see someone streak, you hit gap close and be right up on their butt.
I dont agree with this at all !!
1 out of 10 players might run gap closer these days, and because gap closers are generally bad and heavily punishable due to the animation lock I dont see good players run it. that 1/10 are mostly bad players that can be easily picked off when they chase far from their group. if you cant kill them simply use a 180 degree Streak to stun and before they break and turn you are 2-3 streaks away from them and they cant gap close anymore.
on the other hand any direct damage can break Cloak. there are skill dedicated to breaking it, if only one player actively use flare you are done for. when I use potion 9/10 blades that I'm chasing die and that's a huge counter. Now you say running detect pot is a sacrifice for you, I can say the same for running gap closer. I have to give up one skill to only counter one class? thats a bigger sacrifice than changing your pot for 40seconds if you ask me.
But the biggest difference is if one person runs gap closer then there is one that you have to worry about but if one person has active detect pot or any kind of detection or has any possible way to reveal you, they can break your Cloak for everyone.
[edited to remove quote]
Most accept that the counter is there to counter streak and chose not to. But zos gives us the option.
This whole discussion sounds like it stems from well my class identity skill was nerfed so I want others nerfed too. You cannot compare the two. The overall kit is different.
There is obviously no comparision
Cloak is 10x better than streak in any scenario.
I cloak and I instantly avoid all damage from that moment on. I streak and I can still die unless I chain streak atleast thrice. But I can still die in the process
Cloak is the best skill in the game. It also grants 100% crit chance and major effect on top of that1 -
BasP✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Hmmm, lets see what NBs think of these changes/buffs for sorc since cloak is apparently too sacred to be balanced, so instead we should be buffing sorc to NB standards instead of balancing NB.
Active abilities:Bolt Escape:Passives:
ramping cost has been removed. This ability now grants major prophecy/savagery when slotted on either bar. Base cost increased by 300.
Streak:
Ramping cost has been removed. This ability now grants major prophecy/savagery when slotted on either bar. Base cost increased by 300
Ball of Lightning:
Ramping cost has been removed. This ability now blocks all targeted projectiles and also prevents being targeted by enemies abilities that require a target to cast for 4 seconds. Base cost increased by 300.
Matriarch:
This morph is now no longer treated as a permanent pet that requires summoning. Instead when this ability is cast, it surrounds the caster or an ally in front of them with a twilight matriarch that heals the caster or an ally in front of them for X health and grants minor mending for 8 seconds. (Heal tooltip is on par with healthy offerings heal, ability is also now an instant cast ability).
Bound Armaments:
Each dagger now also grants 70 weapon/spell damage and increases maximum stamina by 8% when slotted on either bar. Base damage of each dagger also increased by 50%.
Crystal Weapon:
This ability is now an instant cast ability instead of a proc on light/heavy attacks. When you leave sprint, finish the teleport from streak or cast this ability while under the effects of major expedition, increases damage done by 10% for 10 seconds. This ability also grants minor expedition while slotted.
Encase:
This ability is now a ground based HoT. It now heals allies within its AoE every second, granting them Major expedition, minor endurance and minor intellect. increasing speed by 30% and stamina and magicka recovery by 15%.
Atronachs Burst:
This morph reworked, it now deals X damage around the caster instantly instead of attacking the nearest enemy. No longer has a duration. Stuns all enemies in its AoE and creates a static link between those enemies and the caster that grants the caster major berserk. provides a synergy that an ally can activate to deal X damage, granting major berserk to that ally for 10 seconds.
Crit surge:
This ability no longer requires you to deal critical damage, instead all light attacks now restore X health and Y stamina (or magicka depending on morph), with an additional Z stamina or magicka restored at the end of the duration depending on how long the skill was active for. Cost was also significantly reduced by 75%.
Liquid lightning:
This ability is no longer a DoT, instead it deals shock damage in an AoE granting major sorcery/brutality (increase weapon/spell damage by 20%) and minor courage (increase weapon/spell damage by 215) for 30 seconds and inflicts minor cowardice on enemies hit for 10 seconds (reducing their weapon/spell damage by 215).Capacitor:
removed this passive, replaced with passive that increases critical rating for each storm calling ability slotted.
Daedric protection:
This passive now increases all 3 recoveries by 20% instead of only stamina and health for having a daedric summoning ability slotted.
Exploitation:
This passive now also increases critical damage done by 5%.
I don't have anything useful to add to the discussion at hand, but I've got to say that I wouldn't mind seeing a couple of those changes to the skills and passives myself (not that they'd every happen).1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
Great, use CamoHunter and they cant spam it anymore, use potion and watch them effortlessly spam it. When we have an skill that can disable Streak we can talk about pushing Cloak through Streak's balance route. Until then learn how to reveal blades and you will get rewarded for it by blocking their "Overperforming Evasion Ability" for 4 seconds.
So this would hold weight accept you skipped the part in my explanation where streak is already nullified by free movement speed that pretty much everyone uses.
So ok if we're both spamming these two skills we can agree that the point is to evade and not damage.
So if someone cloaks and gets revealed by someone using a special skill or potion they can reposition and move around till they can possibly cloak again at the same cost.
As a sorc, and this has happened to me several times. I can only spam streak so much until I run out of juice while someone with movement speed or a gap closer is still on my tail.
In both very common cases the skills are spammed then nullified by commonly available tools but as a NB you're automatically at a resource advantage to deploy your evasion tactic more times with no penalty.
Just like with sorc, the ones most punished by this would be those that didn't care to make the most of their entire kit. But I believe a good NB would still make great use of this0 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭If sorc/necro get meaningful buffs I see no reason to add a ramping cost for cloak. OTOH passively adding Major Savagery to Cloak is an outrageously bad idea and should never happen. Completely unwarranted and a slap in the face to people who play classes that have been gutted.
If other important class issues are really going to be ignored while NB gets yet another unneeded buff then I'm solidly in the "punitive nerfs" camp.
Also, Hurricane should be an exception to the "no AoE DoTs breaking stealth" rule. It's a rubbish rule in the first place imo, but if it has to exist, Hurricane should be a rule breaker.PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP0 -
infunite✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
Great, use CamoHunter and they cant spam it anymore, use potion and watch them effortlessly spam it. When we have an skill that can disable Streak we can talk about pushing Cloak through Streak's balance route. Until then learn how to reveal blades and you will get rewarded for it by blocking their "Overperforming Evasion Ability" for 4 seconds.
So this would hold weight accept you skipped the part in my explanation where streak is already nullified by free movement speed that pretty much everyone uses.
So ok if we're both spamming these two skills we can agree that the point is to evade and not damage.
So if someone cloaks and gets revealed by someone using a special skill or potion they can reposition and move around till they can possibly cloak again at the same cost.
As a sorc, and this has happened to me several times. I can only spam streak so much until I run out of juice while someone with movement speed or a gap closer is still on my tail.
In both very common cases the skills are spammed then nullified by commonly available tools but as a NB you're automatically at a resource advantage to deploy your evasion tactic more times with no penalty.
Just like with sorc, the ones most punished by this would be those that didn't care to make the most of their entire kit. But I believe a good NB would still make great use of this
Not only are nightblades at a resource advantage, if a nightblade gets revealed, you have just given them 300 weapon/spell damage from vamp passive, 10% damage increase for 10 seconds from concealed weapon, and an auto crit. (this of course assumes having vampire and concealed weapon). So you are punished for revealing the nightblade.
1 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
Great, use CamoHunter and they cant spam it anymore, use potion and watch them effortlessly spam it. When we have an skill that can disable Streak we can talk about pushing Cloak through Streak's balance route. Until then learn how to reveal blades and you will get rewarded for it by blocking their "Overperforming Evasion Ability" for 4 seconds.
So this would hold weight accept you skipped the part in my explanation where streak is already nullified by free movement speed that pretty much everyone uses.
So ok if we're both spamming these two skills we can agree that the point is to evade and not damage.
So if someone cloaks and gets revealed by someone using a special skill or potion they can reposition and move around till they can possibly cloak again at the same cost.
As a sorc, and this has happened to me several times. I can only spam streak so much until I run out of juice while someone with movement speed or a gap closer is still on my tail.
In both very common cases the skills are spammed then nullified by commonly available tools but as a NB you're automatically at a resource advantage to deploy your evasion tactic more times with no penalty.
Just like with sorc, the ones most punished by this would be those that didn't care to make the most of their entire kit. But I believe a good NB would still make great use of this
Not only are nightblades at a resource advantage, if a nightblade gets revealed, you have just given them 300 weapon/spell damage from vamp passive, 10% damage increase for 10 seconds from concealed weapon, and an auto crit. (this of course assumes having vampire and concealed weapon). So you are punished for revealing the nightblade.
Oh my God this thread is out of control [snip]. Using a counter is now buffing the target? [snip]
Still has not been one valid argument. [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Kraken on 18 July 2023 19:382 -
infunite✭✭✭ShadowProc wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »
Great, use CamoHunter and they cant spam it anymore, use potion and watch them effortlessly spam it. When we have an skill that can disable Streak we can talk about pushing Cloak through Streak's balance route. Until then learn how to reveal blades and you will get rewarded for it by blocking their "Overperforming Evasion Ability" for 4 seconds.
So this would hold weight accept you skipped the part in my explanation where streak is already nullified by free movement speed that pretty much everyone uses.
So ok if we're both spamming these two skills we can agree that the point is to evade and not damage.
So if someone cloaks and gets revealed by someone using a special skill or potion they can reposition and move around till they can possibly cloak again at the same cost.
As a sorc, and this has happened to me several times. I can only spam streak so much until I run out of juice while someone with movement speed or a gap closer is still on my tail.
In both very common cases the skills are spammed then nullified by commonly available tools but as a NB you're automatically at a resource advantage to deploy your evasion tactic more times with no penalty.
Just like with sorc, the ones most punished by this would be those that didn't care to make the most of their entire kit. But I believe a good NB would still make great use of this
Not only are nightblades at a resource advantage, if a nightblade gets revealed, you have just given them 300 weapon/spell damage from vamp passive, 10% damage increase for 10 seconds from concealed weapon, and an auto crit. (this of course assumes having vampire and concealed weapon). So you are punished for revealing the nightblade.
Oh my God this thread is out of control [snip]. Using a counter is now buffing the target? [snip]
Still has not been one valid argument. [snip]
[edited for baiting]
Are those not buffs?0 -
ebix_✭✭✭✭ShadowProc wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »
Great, use CamoHunter and they cant spam it anymore, use potion and watch them effortlessly spam it. When we have an skill that can disable Streak we can talk about pushing Cloak through Streak's balance route. Until then learn how to reveal blades and you will get rewarded for it by blocking their "Overperforming Evasion Ability" for 4 seconds.
So this would hold weight accept you skipped the part in my explanation where streak is already nullified by free movement speed that pretty much everyone uses.
So ok if we're both spamming these two skills we can agree that the point is to evade and not damage.
So if someone cloaks and gets revealed by someone using a special skill or potion they can reposition and move around till they can possibly cloak again at the same cost.
As a sorc, and this has happened to me several times. I can only spam streak so much until I run out of juice while someone with movement speed or a gap closer is still on my tail.
In both very common cases the skills are spammed then nullified by commonly available tools but as a NB you're automatically at a resource advantage to deploy your evasion tactic more times with no penalty.
Just like with sorc, the ones most punished by this would be those that didn't care to make the most of their entire kit. But I believe a good NB would still make great use of this
Not only are nightblades at a resource advantage, if a nightblade gets revealed, you have just given them 300 weapon/spell damage from vamp passive, 10% damage increase for 10 seconds from concealed weapon, and an auto crit. (this of course assumes having vampire and concealed weapon). So you are punished for revealing the nightblade.
Oh my God this thread is out of control [snip]. Using a counter is now buffing the target? [snip]
Still has not been one valid argument. [snip]
[edited for baiting]
If they enjoy making excuses for nerf threads to make them feel better about their own class then whatever. Maybe we should let them be.
I hope one day we get a patch that every class gets buffed even you necromancers, all together.
5 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »If sorc/necro get meaningful buffs I see no reason to add a ramping cost for cloak. OTOH passively adding Major Savagery to Cloak is an outrageously bad idea and should never happen. Completely unwarranted and a slap in the face to people who play classes that have been gutted.
If other important class issues are really going to be ignored while NB gets yet another unneeded buff then I'm solidly in the "punitive nerfs" camp.
Also, Hurricane should be an exception to the "no AoE DoTs breaking stealth" rule. It's a rubbish rule in the first place imo, but if it has to exist, Hurricane should be a rule breaker.
At least you admit punitive nerfs Instead of throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks.2 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowProc wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »
Great, use CamoHunter and they cant spam it anymore, use potion and watch them effortlessly spam it. When we have an skill that can disable Streak we can talk about pushing Cloak through Streak's balance route. Until then learn how to reveal blades and you will get rewarded for it by blocking their "Overperforming Evasion Ability" for 4 seconds.
So this would hold weight accept you skipped the part in my explanation where streak is already nullified by free movement speed that pretty much everyone uses.
So ok if we're both spamming these two skills we can agree that the point is to evade and not damage.
So if someone cloaks and gets revealed by someone using a special skill or potion they can reposition and move around till they can possibly cloak again at the same cost.
As a sorc, and this has happened to me several times. I can only spam streak so much until I run out of juice while someone with movement speed or a gap closer is still on my tail.
In both very common cases the skills are spammed then nullified by commonly available tools but as a NB you're automatically at a resource advantage to deploy your evasion tactic more times with no penalty.
Just like with sorc, the ones most punished by this would be those that didn't care to make the most of their entire kit. But I believe a good NB would still make great use of this
Not only are nightblades at a resource advantage, if a nightblade gets revealed, you have just given them 300 weapon/spell damage from vamp passive, 10% damage increase for 10 seconds from concealed weapon, and an auto crit. (this of course assumes having vampire and concealed weapon). So you are punished for revealing the nightblade.
Oh my God this thread is out of control [snip]. Using a counter is now buffing the target? [snip]
Still has not been one valid argument. [snip]
[edited for baiting]
Are you saying you don’t get buffed after coming out of cloak ?
2 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »If sorc/necro get meaningful buffs I see no reason to add a ramping cost for cloak. OTOH passively adding Major Savagery to Cloak is an outrageously bad idea and should never happen. Completely unwarranted and a slap in the face to people who play classes that have been gutted.
If other important class issues are really going to be ignored while NB gets yet another unneeded buff then I'm solidly in the "punitive nerfs" camp.
Also, Hurricane should be an exception to the "no AoE DoTs breaking stealth" rule. It's a rubbish rule in the first place imo, but if it has to exist, Hurricane should be a rule breaker.
Its not just sorc / necro.
NB is infinitesimally better than any other class in the game . There is not one thing which other classes can do better than NB in PVP.
To compete with NB in PVP, every class will have to have a PTS buff patch of their own and it still might not be enoughEdited by PhoenixGrey on 18 July 2023 22:400 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
If they enjoy making excuses for nerf threads to make them feel better about their own class then whatever. Maybe we should let them be.
I hope one day we get a patch that every class gets buffed even you necromancers, all together.
I mean I get what you're saying but it's not an excuse to say that the nb kit is currently disproportionally strong. The person was more so just pointing out that here's a scenario where an already strong class/kit gets a buff just for doing it's natural thing vs multiple other classes that aren't seeing the same treatment.
Also for some yes maybe you can call it a "their class" but for others like me who are commenting, we play nb as well. My point is to say that not all who are commenting in favor of the change have the same motivation.
I'm ok with any group arguing that something feels like an imbalance to them and at this point it's just silly to really deny the class imbalance that we all know exists in this game.
Yeah I get it, nobody likes feeling targeted but at the same time we have to start somewhere. Personally I wish they were more so on working on buffing other classes properly but if that feedback is currently not really showing up in patch notes so who can blame people for saying if you won't buff then please nerf?0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »
Are you saying you don’t get buffed after coming out of cloak ?
I'm pretty sure the way you said it makes it sound like you're reaching for reasons for nb to be op. But I think people need to take into account that you're basically saying a class that performs well gets yet another buff just for basically playing the game.
Other classes have a touch of this but nb is just stacked to the point where it's a bit obvious.1 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭Just want to throw this out there but this mentality of just buff every class to some OP level is how we got to this trash meta. Now almost every class runs around with strong burst heals, strong hots, overloaded sustain etc. Make a mistake in pvp ? don't worry you hot heals, passive mitigation, high hp, and sets that'll take care of it.
I think it's time to bring out the nerf hammer and make it, so each class has 2 standout skills like in the past. This allows room for error and for pvp to be a fun burst type meta.Edited by Alchimiste1 on 18 July 2023 23:400 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »Just want to throw this out there but this mentality of just buff every class to some OP level is how we got to this trash meta. Now almost every class runs around with strong burst heals, strong hots, overloaded sustain etc. Make a mistake in pvp ? don't worry you hot heals, passive mitigation, high hp, and sets that'll take care of it.
I think it's time to bring out the nerf hammer and make it, so each class has 2 standout skills like in the past. This allows room for error and for pvp to be a fun burst type meta.
Its the proc sets and high hp pool which are the bigger problem
I bet most players don’t even know what their skills on their bar do coz they don’t need to use them
Things which prevent the burst meta are because damage is easier to apply and healing / defense is easier. It’s not about how strong it is
Take sorc for example. Shields have resists which is again brain dead. Now I have to burst the sorc shields and then go through the hp pool as well. Previously catch the sorc without shields and you can insta gib them which is how it’s supposed to be
The ceiling needs to be raised and stop catering to casuals
Edited by PhoenixGrey on 18 July 2023 23:530 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »
Are you saying you don’t get buffed after coming out of cloak ?
I'm pretty sure the way you said it makes it sound like you're reaching for reasons for nb to be op. But I think people need to take into account that you're basically saying a class that performs well gets yet another buff just for basically playing the game.
Other classes have a touch of this but nb is just stacked to the point where it's a bit obvious.
I am just trying get op to admit that nb is practically god mode in this game0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Lol this thread should just be closed down tbh. Cloak will never get addressed because too many NBs depend their life on it and will tell everyone who wants a balanced ability to l2p.
Let's just ask for cloak counters to be more universal and effective like how movement speed is universal to counter Streak. Maybe one day I won't have to waste an entire potion or slot 1 ability to counter 1 specific class.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc5 -
Foxtrot39✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »[...]
I would be legit surprised if nb ever received a nerf let alone cloak
They had one of the most powerfull group protection ultimate with consumming darkness before it got nerfed into the ground to the point a non class passive effect completely outclasses it after the Elsweyr chapter, never to be changed once ever since
Edited by Foxtrot39 on 19 July 2023 05:191 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.
@Turtle_Bot
That is very inaccurate since the OP is specifically asking for cloak to be treated like Streak. Discussing the comparison to streak is core to what the OP is asking for. So mentioning streak is not the same exact thing as discussing tangents.
Please go look for yourself. It is easy to find since it is in the very first sentence.
5 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DrNukenstein wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »
Because I am lol. Not the best, but very experienced in my class and experienced enough to talk about PvP. Idc if you think otherwise, there are plenty of people on the forums who can confirm that.
No one doubts that you know how to play the game and your preferred classes, but calling for nerfs on other classes/sets because you believe their kits are so powerful that they trump your skill doesn't make you look skillful.
No one denies that Stam Sorc is a hard class, but it still has it's extreme high performance outliers. I see more stam sorcs going off the rails and 1v11ing in BGs than I do DKs. Does that mean stam sorc is busted? No. But it does mean, that the potential for skill expression is so powerful that sorc is a lot stronger than it looks on paper in talented hands.
Nightblade is similar, the potential for high performance through skill expression is there and that's why people like the class. That said, it's not the static 4k per cloak cost.
This is one of the best comments in this thread.
Some of those who have posted that they find cloak to be challenging have noted that it is easier to successfully pull out of cloak a less experienced NB as the more experienced ones tend to have more than one trick up their sleeve just as any experienced player does. By the same token, it is a much better challenge going up against an experienced player.
3 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.
@Turtle_Bot
That is very inaccurate since the OP is specifically asking for cloak to be treated like Streak. Discussing the comparison to streak is core to what the OP is asking for. So mentioning streak is not the same exact thing as discussing tangents.
Please go look for yourself. It is easy to find since it is in the very first sentence.
Way to completely miss my point, granted it's in the second sentence, so it's definitely a bit harder to find.
I'll spell it out for you.
You said, and I quote "Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs. "
well by that logic and the proof shown in this thread on video that sprinting alongside gap closers and ranged attacks easily (and cheaply) keeps up with streak thanks to the availability of movement speed modifiers, then streak/BoL/mist form should have its ramping cost removed too because those counters are very easy to use effectively and extremely accessible which means there's no need for a ramping cost on streak/BoL/mist form either.
Or, and stay with me here, we could introduce a ramping cost to cloak to give it some skill expression to utilize effectively and give a real feeling of outplaying an opponent when it works instead of making all the evasion tools just simple press this button anytime to instantly outplay your opponent.
This reasoning was why streak/BoL was given a ramping cost. It takes skill to use/time those skills effectively to outplay an opponent with them, especially an opponent who has a somewhat decent understanding of the game and a decent build.
This is why it is the same thing when people say that cloak should not get a ramping cost to go alongside its buff next patch, yet those same people will say that removing the ramping cost of streak (or giving any buffs/fixes/reworks to sorc) would be OP.6 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭StaticWave wrote: »Lol this thread should just be closed down tbh. Cloak will never get addressed because too many NBs depend their life on it and will tell everyone who wants a balanced ability to l2p.
Let's just ask for cloak counters to be more universal and effective like how movement speed is universal to counter Streak. Maybe one day I won't have to waste an entire potion or slot 1 ability to counter 1 specific class.
There was a certain NB youtube star who's life depends on this class which is why I don't think NB will receive any nerfs even if the forums agree to oneEdited by PhoenixGrey on 19 July 2023 16:150 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »
As much as I would be delighted to. I am on console. Just leaves me wondering if you're so experienced, how do you struggle with fighting cloaking nightblades with the counters provided. All you need is camo hunter it's not that hard
Let me help you out there. He probably struggles as much as you or anyone would if we took the ramping cost off of streak. Just think about that for a second. They both have counters that can be slotted etc but the point is that something that as a skill offers such a strong effect should be limited in its ability to be spammed.
It's just about game balance. Also if cloak became unusable after the change I'd be all for reverting but it should at least be tried.
Yea this. Remember when Streak had no ramping cost and people could chain Streak for days even with gap closers slotted?
Why did Streak get a ramping cost but Cloak didn’t lol? It makes no sense when 2 abilities are similar in function.
I remember when streak had 50% cost increase, mag sorcs used to spam it just like now. yeah it got better for stam sorcs a little but I dont think ramping cost is a good penalty even on streak, I think it should get a reduce travel distance penalty instead.
And again Streak and Cloak are not the same thing. Streak is a teleport ability and Cloak gives invisibility and I gave you multiple examples when I last quoted you.
When you use Streak you teleport 15 meters and stun everything in your way and there is nothing that can make you drop at 6 meters so you get what you pressed for 100% of the time. Streak does what it promises to do, but still if 1 out of 5 runs gap closer you get 4 less players on you. And when you use Cloak, things can break it instanlty either randomly or intentionally, so basically you can waste your resource and dont get what you pressed for.StaticWave wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.
And only 1 of them is actually reliable enough to be used, which is Detect Potions, which just recently got buffed. Even then, you are wasting 45s of better potions like Tripots or Armor pots, or an entire skill slot that has no use out side of countering 1 class that so happens to be obnoxiously common in Cyrodiil PvP
Meanwhile, Streak and Mist Form are easily countered by slotting a gap closer, which also has multiple uses outside of countering Streak and Mist users (for example, Rushing Agony with Stampede is widely used to bomb zergs). Heck, even sprinting is sufficient to counter a Streak/Mist user. I mean just look at this video where I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting.https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
Not true. You are not wasting 45 seconds. The new buff to pots is awful. If you can't kill the nb when you reveal them then that's on bad players.
Asking for yet another nerf to cloak is absurd.
Most nbs hiding in stealth and using cloak are squishy like glass. [snip]
Nobody's saying anything about not being able to kill squishy NBs. Don't use a strawman argument against me dude.
My argument is the counters for Streak/Mist are more effective and require less sacrifice than the counters for Cloak. Movement speed is abundant and easy to get without sacrificing a lot, and gap closer is useful for all scenarios, not just against Streak. Meanwhile, a detect potion is only useful against NB, and I have to sacrifice Major Prophecy because I'm getting it from pots. Camo Hunter/Inner Light is only useful against NB and don't even work most of the time. I can use a gap closer to chase someone down, or use it with Rushing Agony or other sets to deal extra damage. I can't do that with Camo Hunter/Inner Light.
Cloak needs a ramping cost, and it's long overdue. If you can't play a NB without Cloak, then I could say it's something you need to improve on.
[edited to remove quote]
Straw man argument? I haven't heard a single reason yet that justifies what you all are asking for. I might be wrong but don't you post different daily nerf posts?
If your saying you have no trouble killing nbs then why are you asking for a nerf? Survive the opening. Pop a detect pot, mage light, camo hunter, or any or the other nerfs in game. How exactly is the nb getting away? Especially if it's a detect pot? You can literally see them anywhere. Streak towards/through them and they dead.
Straw man argument? You mean like saying you shouldn't have to use the most powerful counter because you have to wait 45 seconds to use another? Like seriously. That's as strawman as it gets.
You straw manned me by saying it's a L2P issue to kill squishy NBs. Did I ever say anything about having difficulty killing squishy NBs?
The argument is about Cloak. You don't need to be a squishy NB to use Cloak. I can be in 30k resistance with 3.4k crit resist and still be able to use Cloak. Now I'm much harder to kill, and I can also disappear when I want. That's what many brawlerblades will be doing next patch with Cloak buff.
I'm sorry, but people like you add to the problem. Using strawman arguments to make yours appear more credible is a shameful tactic to try shutting down a legitimate balance request.
This is laughable. You post daily nerf threads. I have seen one of them be close to reasonable. There is one person spamming for nerfs daily. And it's not me.
I made a thread about Relequen being broken and it got a bunch of backlash. Guess what? Now everyone is realizing it's broken.
Most of my threads are legitimate complaints. I am also open to discussion, but people just don't want to discuss.
Agree to disagree. As do most others to your posts. They are centered around all classes but your own. Hence the large amount of feedback you get to l2p. Sorry man, but it is what it is. You are entitled to your opinions but if you post that amount expect not to be taken seriously. [snip]
Clearly Zos feels its underperforming, which I disagree with, and is buffing it. Which is too bad as I feel it's fine the way it is.
The compromise should be to cancel the buff and leave it alone.
Or maybe, just maybe, the vast majority of the forums are casual players and don’t experience the same thing I do?
It’s pretty bold to claim I have a l2p issue when I could probably out-experience the vast majority of them in a fight, not being toxic here.
Please step foot in Stormhaven or BG and fight the players I’m fighting. [snip]
[snip]
Because I am lol. Not the best, but very experienced in my class and experienced enough to talk about PvP. Idc if you think otherwise, there are plenty of people on the forums who can confirm that.
If you or anyone doubt, I’m always dueling in Stormhaven on PC NA and would love a challenge. I also do BGs so queue up too while you’re at it.
As much as I would be delighted to. I am on console. Just leaves me wondering if you're so experienced, how do you struggle with fighting cloaking nightblades with the counters provided. All you need is camo hunter it's not that hard
Streak counters are much more reliable. You see someone streak, you hit gap close and be right up on their butt.
I dont agree with this at all !!
1 out of 10 players might run gap closer these days, and because gap closers are generally bad and heavily punishable due to the animation lock I dont see good players run it. that 1/10 are mostly bad players that can be easily picked off when they chase far from their group. if you cant kill them simply use a 180 degree Streak to stun and before they break and turn you are 2-3 streaks away from them and they cant gap close anymore.
on the other hand any direct damage can break Cloak. there are skill dedicated to breaking it, if only one player actively use flare you are done for. when I use potion 9/10 blades that I'm chasing die and that's a huge counter. Now you say running detect pot is a sacrifice for you, I can say the same for running gap closer. I have to give up one skill to only counter one class? thats a bigger sacrifice than changing your pot for 40seconds if you ask me.
But the biggest difference is if one person runs gap closer then there is one that you have to worry about but if one person has active detect pot or any kind of detection or has any possible way to reveal you, they can break your Cloak for everyone.
[edited to remove quote]
Most accept that the counter is there to counter streak and chose not to. But zos gives us the option.
This whole discussion sounds like it stems from well my class identity skill was nerfed so I want others nerfed too. You cannot compare the two. The overall kit is different.
There is obviously no comparision
Cloak is 10x better than streak in any scenario.
I cloak and I instantly avoid all damage from that moment on. I streak and I can still die unless I chain streak atleast thrice. But I can still die in the process
Cloak is the best skill in the game. It also grants 100% crit chance and major effect on top of that
You 100% do not avoid all damage if you use Cloak and someone pops a detect pot. Nice try.0 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Lol this thread should just be closed down tbh. Cloak will never get addressed because too many NBs depend their life on it and will tell everyone who wants a balanced ability to l2p.
Let's just ask for cloak counters to be more universal and effective like how movement speed is universal to counter Streak. Maybe one day I won't have to waste an entire potion or slot 1 ability to counter 1 specific class.
Well the next step to make counters more effective would be to make it a passive.
Let's make all counters a passive. How is slotting a skill or using a pot for a counter asking a lot? Like what else is there for counters. Lmao. Skills, sets, pots. What am I missing?4