Flames of Oblivion is OP

i11ionward

Everyone constantly discusses that corrosion is OP, but I think that DK has a more imbalanced skill, this is Flames of Oblivion (we will talk about PVP).
I think no one will deny that Flames of Oblivion is an AOE skill, and now let's get down to business:
1) How is it possible that an AOE skill only costs 2160 Magicka? Yes, this is a delayed damage skill, and some skills with delayed damage have a similar cost, for example, Subterranean Assault costs 2066 Stamina (although stamina skills are always cheaper than magick), but there is one important nuance, read the next paragraph.
2) According to the description, you might think that Flames of Oblivion is a typical delayed damage skill, like Curse, Blastbones or Scorch, but in reality, the first tick of Flames of Oblivion deals damage when activated, which literally makes it possible to use this skill as an AOE spam. 2160 Magicka for an AOE spam skill is incredibly cheap.
3) Do not forget that the skill also gives a good buff - Major Prophecy and Savager.
4) When the skill hits the enemy, the enemy's movement speed decreases. Flames of Oblivion has a range of 15 meters, it's not 36 meters, but it's not a melee zone either, escaping DK is not an easy task.
5) When using Flames of Oblivion, you always get a stack of Seething Fury, and if you have full stacks, their time will be refreshed to the maximum, in fact, you will almost never waste mana using this skill (of course, if you do not use Flame Lash). By the way, the stack of Seething Fury is generated even if you are not in combat, I think this is not normal, but it deserves a separate discussion.
Perhaps I missed something, but this is already enough to understand that Flames of Oblivion is totally OP.
In my opinion, the skill should be nerfed, namely, the cost should increase significantly or the first tick of damage should be removed when the skill is activated. In my opinion, it is preferable to remove the first tick of damage, but in order not to affect PVE, the total duration of the skill can be increased to 20 seconds - the total number of ticks will remain the same.

LunaFlora

yea it's a nice skill, why is this in the pts category though?

i11ionward

LunaFlora wrote: »

yea it's a nice skill, why is this in the pts category though?

If I made a mistake with the category, let the moderator move it.

Treeshka

It could be true category to give testers and developers insight about the skill from different players since tomorrow is patch day for test server.

rootkitronin

Nah it's fine, just leave it as is.

(totally not a DK main)

MashmalloMan

I could see a cost bump being valid, the rest of the skill is in a good place. The fact that it's the go to, low cost option to build Seething Fury makes no sense for it being an AOE skill with not 1, but 4 attacks over the 15 seconds. Seething Fury has become a joke to keep up.

And yeah, this is the wrong section, should be Combat and Character Mechanics since this has nothing to do with any direct/indirect changes via update 38.

Jayne_Doe

Just a couple of points. Not saying it's not overpowered or under-priced, but just want to clarify.

First, the buff is only applicable on the bar it's on, meaning to have the buff for both weapons, it needs to be on both bars.

Second, the first tick only hits enemies if they are already engaged. You can't set it off to initiate combat.

Again, minor points, but thought they should be mentioned.

ETA: A couple more points for clarification:

1. This is not technically an AOE, since it doesn't affect an area (ground or radius around player) but rather targets enemies.

2. It can only ever target three enemies - AOEs can affect a LOT more than three.

3. The tick is 5 seconds, rather than the usual 1 or 2.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it deals with skills.

Thank you for your understanding

SandandStars

Yep, as OP and many others in different threads have noted, FOO Is over performing pretty badly.

I do not expect to see it adjusted anytime in the next year though, or perhaps ever. I honestly don’t think DK’s status is problematic from the dev team’s perspective. If you look at the established patterns, their vision of class balance is not class equality.

Rhaegar75

i11ionward wrote: »

Everyone constantly discusses that corrosion is OP, but I think that DK has a more imbalanced skill, this is Flames of Oblivion (we will talk about PVP).
I think no one will deny that Flames of Oblivion is an AOE skill, and now let's get down to business:
1) How is it possible that an AOE skill only costs 2160 Magicka? Yes, this is a delayed damage skill, and some skills with delayed damage have a similar cost, for example, Subterranean Assault costs 2066 Stamina (although stamina skills are always cheaper than magick), but there is one important nuance, read the next paragraph.
2) According to the description, you might think that Flames of Oblivion is a typical delayed damage skill, like Curse, Blastbones or Scorch, but in reality, the first tick of Flames of Oblivion deals damage when activated, which literally makes it possible to use this skill as an AOE spam. 2160 Magicka for an AOE spam skill is incredibly cheap.
3) Do not forget that the skill also gives a good buff - Major Prophecy and Savager.
4) When the skill hits the enemy, the enemy's movement speed decreases. Flames of Oblivion has a range of 15 meters, it's not 36 meters, but it's not a melee zone either, escaping DK is not an easy task.
5) When using Flames of Oblivion, you always get a stack of Seething Fury, and if you have full stacks, their time will be refreshed to the maximum, in fact, you will almost never waste mana using this skill (of course, if you do not use Flame Lash). By the way, the stack of Seething Fury is generated even if you are not in combat, I think this is not normal, but it deserves a separate discussion.
Perhaps I missed something, but this is already enough to understand that Flames of Oblivion is totally OP.
In my opinion, the skill should be nerfed, namely, the cost should increase significantly or the first tick of damage should be removed when the skill is activated. In my opinion, it is preferable to remove the first tick of damage, but in order not to affect PVE, the total duration of the skill can be increased to 20 seconds - the total number of ticks will remain the same.

Mmmmmm nope, not really.

SandandStars

^^ Nice argument 😁

DrNukenstein

Best ability in the game hands down. No other class in the game has a single ability that does close to this much stuff for so little cost while also recasting itself every 5 seconds. Paired with molten whip, DK ganking is possible and extremely brutal.

How an ability can be around for as long as it has as such an extreme outlier is astounding.

OBJnoob

I agree with nerfing it, but I'm not sure it's the "strongest ability in the game." In fact I mostly don't have a problem with it I'd just like the fireballs not to come out immediately. A fairly small technicality to my mind. It just shouldn't be a spammable.

What does FoO do exactly anyway? Gives major savagery, does damage, and builds a stack for whip? That's not a very long list, unless I'm missing something important.

Hmm. I was going to try to make a list of comparable skills but my creative juices aren't flowing right now. Concealed weapon, Arctic Blast, Hurricane. I dunno what else. Lots of things I would think. I can't remember the name of the NB AoE skill with the minor cowardice and minor courage at the moment but I really want to say that. Streak?

I've never played templar because (well before U35 FYI,) I thought they were cheesey OP and decided to never play one. Can't play Necro or Arcanist because I didn't buy it. If my brain weren't missing these three classes I just feel like I could go on and on and on.

I really don't think FoO is that bad. It's almost, to me, just like an oversight in design that needs to be finally fixed. Surely a multi-target delayed burst wasn't supposed to also be a spammable?

Tigeracer

OBJnoob wrote: »

I agree with nerfing it, but I'm not sure it's the "strongest ability in the game." In fact I mostly don't have a problem with it I'd just like the fireballs not to come out immediately. A fairly small technicality to my mind. It just shouldn't be a spammable.

What does FoO do exactly anyway? Gives major savagery, does damage, and builds a stack for whip? That's not a very long list, unless I'm missing something important.

Hmm. I was going to try to make a list of comparable skills but my creative juices aren't flowing right now. Concealed weapon, Arctic Blast, Hurricane. I dunno what else. Lots of things I would think. I can't remember the name of the NB AoE skill with the minor cowardice and minor courage at the moment but I really want to say that. Streak?

I've never played templar because (well before U35 FYI,) I thought they were cheesey OP and decided to never play one. Can't play Necro or Arcanist because I didn't buy it. If my brain weren't missing these three classes I just feel like I could go on and on and on.

I really don't think FoO is that bad. It's almost, to me, just like an oversight in design that needs to be finally fixed. Surely a multi-target delayed burst wasn't supposed to also be a spammable?

The skill you're thinking of is either sap essence (Magicka) or power extraction (stamina). Streak is the sorc escape/mobility ability.

OBJnoob

Power extraction! Thank you. I wanted to add Streak to the list too though. Damage, unblockable stun, and mobility tool.

I think the way DKs use FoO is OP but what it is-- 3 fireballs every 5 seconds-- it's a fine idea. A mini burst every 5 seconds is okay. Other classes have similar things. Other classes just can't spam it, lol, or they would. Warden would spam beetles and sorc would spam curse if they could, y'know? The timer needs to be built in. The first fireballs should come out after 5 seconds.

Lots of skills do 3 things. Crystal weapon. It does damage twice, applies a small penetration debuff, and reduces the cost of your next ability. But it's not OP. Never was. It only was OP in the way it was used... Back when it stacked with the Psijic one.

DrNukenstein

OBJnoob wrote: »

I agree with nerfing it, but I'm not sure it's the "strongest ability in the game." In fact I mostly don't have a problem with it I'd just like the fireballs not to come out immediately. A fairly small technicality to my mind. It just shouldn't be a spammable.

What does FoO do exactly anyway? Gives major savagery, does damage, and builds a stack for whip? That's not a very long list, unless I'm missing something important.

It also snares by 30%, does near spammable damage at range to multiple targets when cast and 3 more times over the course of 15 seconds, and has one of the lowest resource costs in the kit

Not saying "nerf it", I love spamming it on my DK just as much as anyone who plays a DK mediocre-ly. It's very clearly overloaded though and there isn't a skill in the game that can compare to how much this one skill does.

mb10

mate that whole class is ridiculously OP atm in PVP

OBJnoob

DrNukenstein wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I agree with nerfing it, but I'm not sure it's the "strongest ability in the game." In fact I mostly don't have a problem with it I'd just like the fireballs not to come out immediately. A fairly small technicality to my mind. It just shouldn't be a spammable.

What does FoO do exactly anyway? Gives major savagery, does damage, and builds a stack for whip? That's not a very long list, unless I'm missing something important.

It also snares by 30%, does near spammable damage at range to multiple targets when cast and 3 more times over the course of 15 seconds, and has one of the lowest resource costs in the kit

Not saying "nerf it", I love spamming it on my DK just as much as anyone who plays a DK mediocre-ly. It's very clearly overloaded though and there isn't a skill in the game that can compare to how much this one skill does.

I mean of course it does near spammable damage though, right, cuz it's a delayed damage tool. Just like Curse and Sub Assault which also hit multiple targets and, I would think, actually do more damage than a spammable. Curse can be applied while a target is rolling or blocking and beetles give major and minor breach. Similar enough in power budgeting, I would think, to a 30% snare.

The actual, effectual difference? One can be spammed and the others can't.

Make the first fireballs come out after 5 seconds instead of instantly and DKs will stop spamming it. Which means to maintain pressure they'll need to adjust their bars. And I'm not saying this is the only thing DK has that needs looking at, but I think it would be a good start. A relatively mechanical change that doesn't make them do less damage per se but nevertheless forces them to do something else. To not have their offensive needs so easily met in a nice tight package.

I'm not opposed to nerfing it more, honestly, but my opinion is that this is the only adjustment THIS skill needs and then I'd like to see equally small adjustments to things like Corrosive, Fossilize, and Coag. But I can definitely see why someone might say it shouldn't have major savagery, or hit 3 people, or apply a snare. But I guess I'm just suggesting/warning not to nerf this single skill into oblivion when maybe little sprinkles of adjustment all over might be better.

Wandering_Immigrant

If they removed the spammable portion of this it would become a dead skill. It doesn't hit hard enough to be a worthwhile delayed burst or often enough to apply worthwhile pressure. It's honestly a fairly weak ability that on most classes wouldn't be slotted. It just happens to fit perfectly into the DK toolkit because their actual spammable requires charging, FoO charges whip and is cheap to cast so it gets spammed as filler while readying your burst.

If they removed the initial hit it would just get replaced by leash which also charges whip, does almost as much damage, and is free the cast on targets immune to stun.

Just increasing the cost of FoO would be enough to have it spammed less frivolously without killing it off.

BetterAtChess

FoO would be fine on less over-performing classes. On DK it's just easy pressure that stacks with the dots and whip.

mmtaniac

Whole dk is too stronk and need changes or nerfs. He have sustain too easy but should be class that struggle with one. Have damage too easy but should have damage too easy it's ok , have defense but should have one . Sustain is problem ,current game have too many options for sustain and this makes builds unkillable.

Iriidius

Jayne_Doe wrote: »

Just a couple of points. Not saying it's not overpowered or under-priced, but just want to clarify.

First, the buff is only applicable on the bar it's on, meaning to have the buff for both weapons, it needs to be on both bars.

Second, the first tick only hits enemies if they are already engaged. You can't set it off to initiate combat.

Again, minor points, but thought they should be mentioned.

ETA: A couple more points for clarification:

1. This is not technically an AOE, since it doesn't affect an area (ground or radius around player) but rather targets enemies.

2. It can only ever target three enemies - AOEs can affect a LOT more than three.

3. The tick is 5 seconds, rather than the usual 1 or 2.

If you use flames of oblivion as a spammable, you dont use it as a dot and dont make use of the following 3 ticks. Other than real AOE spammables that have no aoe caps and hit unlimited enemys Flames of oblivion hits only 3(2 before it got buffed, 1 for base ability), but still have dmg of a AOE spammable. Also as projectiles the fireballs are dodgeable and reflectable(DK wings, warden crystalized shield, Sorc ball of lightning, Shield ulti „spell wall“ morph).
If you use flames of oblivion as a DoT, you dont use it as a spammable. The dmg is about the same as other DoTs but with shorter duration.
Other skills like engulfing flames/venemous breath(90 degree cone)and Cleave/Brawler(270 degree cone) also have a Dot and AOE spammable direct dmg. Screaming Cliffracer and Destructive frost reach have Dots on top of a ranged single target spammable.
Also you have to decide if you count molten whip stack to molten whip or to flames of Oblivion. You cant just count it for both and demand both to get nerfed. I would count it to molten whip because it doesnt work if you use flame lash morph or other skill as spammable.
DKs got heavy nerfs in 4 of the last 5 updates and will receive dmg nerf next update again, only reason it is still meta is that other classes like sorcerer, templar and necromancer got also nerfed. If the tank meta changes into a dmg meta or sorcerer, necro and templar get buffed again, dk will be midtier again, when dk also gets nerfed even more, it will be bottom tier like 2 years ago before it got buffed.

WoppaBoem

Its free afk dmg auto aim hitting three people. Dk is loaded with overpowered stuff and this skill shines bright in the overloaded doing too much free stuff zero skill needed skills. This should just hit 1 person.

WoppaBoem

Iriidius wrote: »

Jayne_Doe wrote: »

Just a couple of points. Not saying it's not overpowered or under-priced, but just want to clarify.

First, the buff is only applicable on the bar it's on, meaning to have the buff for both weapons, it needs to be on both bars.

Second, the first tick only hits enemies if they are already engaged. You can't set it off to initiate combat.

Again, minor points, but thought they should be mentioned.

ETA: A couple more points for clarification:

1. This is not technically an AOE, since it doesn't affect an area (ground or radius around player) but rather targets enemies.

2. It can only ever target three enemies - AOEs can affect a LOT more than three.

3. The tick is 5 seconds, rather than the usual 1 or 2.

If the tank meta changes into a dmg meta or sorcerer, necro and templar get buffed again, dk will be midtier again, when dk also gets nerfed even more, it will be bottom tier like 2 years ago before it got buffed.

Lmao, so the game would need to change soo much which will not happen. Sad classes would need all buffs and if this would happen then maybe dk would end mid tier. Thank you for making the case dk could use some flames and corrosive nerfs

El_Borracho

Flames of Oblivion is now OP.

Only a matter of time before we get the "Dragon Fire Scale is OP" grievance.

Extinct_Solo_Player

El_Borracho wrote: »

Flames of Oblivion is now OP.

Only a matter of time before we get the "Dragon Fire Scale is OP" grievance.

yeah..... i stopped reading after he was implying it's stronger than curse and shalks.

Urzigurumash

Any discussion about the technicalities of DK's overpowered state is a waste of time so long as the Undeath Problem continues to give DK a 13% Damage bonus.

gariondavey

El_Borracho wrote: »

Flames of Oblivion is now OP.

Only a matter of time before we get the "Dragon Fire Scale is OP" grievance.

Dragon fire scale is number 1 damage on a dk friend of mine

SandandStars

Anyone out there who is a DK Main that thinks FOO is overpowered? 🤨

I mean, if you’re still a DK Main in pvp… maybe you don’t like losing… a lot…

lexicondevil99

"I got killed by a thing and think that thing should be nerfed" Another ESO classic post. I guess we'll see more of this now that "I don't like PvP so Whitestrake's Mayhem shouldn't exist" is retired until next year. So it goes.

FirmamentOfStars

FoO actually is the most dps a dk has in duels in many cases (if the dk focuses on stats and not like status effects or procs). So I would say it does its fair share in this overall strong class. I could see a small nerf to it done by increasing its cost or shifting the first tick to the end.
I would not say though, that it is blatantly OP. The combination of all these fantastic tools make the dk class this strong and corrosive armor is probs the biggest offender there. But FoO is a very good skill and fits the class built around pressure nicely (especially if you can time your burst with FoO).