Arms of Relequen is the new Savage WW and needs to be nerfed

JerBearESO

Weckless wrote: »

And i have one for you
0.001 heavy attack lands
0.026 light attack 1 lands
0.726 light attack 2 lands
1.000 rele tick
1.426 light attack 3 lands

5 ticks in 1.426 seconds

On the misinformation bandwagon I see.... This supposed to happen with just light attack spams after a heavy attacks? At which point you are using no abilities so who is going to die to that.... But mainly, why does tick 4 exist? Each tick resets the timer of rele so tick 4 can't happen.

And my build is about taking no Regen anywhere and taking straight wep damage instead, so I can't take a spammable. Rele offsets that by allowing me some pressure with lightning heavy attacks between blastbones. It's not OP. The build can NEVER win vs meta builds, trust my death screens.... What it is is very unique. It's a playstyle of its own.

Play your way? Sound familiar? Stop trying to destroy build diversity with constant nerf cries just because.

I've fully made my points with outstanding math and logic. I have been argued against with misinformation.... At this point it's becoming an unpleasant back and forth so I leave you all to it. But please quit dodging my challenge. Show us at least 20 ticks within 6 seconds. Also take rele to 1vX sometime. Prove it's sooooo nerf worthy....

i11ionward

I'm wondering how relequen works with lightning staff, do you get stacks of harmful winds every time you deal damage or when HA is fully charged?

Weckless

JerBearESO wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

And i have one for you
0.001 heavy attack lands
0.026 light attack 1 lands
0.726 light attack 2 lands
1.000 rele tick
1.426 light attack 3 lands

5 ticks in 1.426 seconds

On the misinformation bandwagon I see.... This supposed to happen with just light attack spams after a heavy attacks? At which point you are using no abilities so who is going to die to that.... But mainly, why does tick 4 exist? Each tick resets the timer of rele so tick 4 can't happen.

And my build is about taking no Regen anywhere and taking straight wep damage instead, so I can't take a spammable. Rele offsets that by allowing me some pressure with lightning heavy attacks between blastbones. It's not OP. The build can NEVER win vs meta builds, trust my death screens.... What it is is very unique. It's a playstyle of its own.

Play your way? Sound familiar? Stop trying to destroy build diversity with constant nerf cries just because.

I've fully made my points with outstanding math and logic. I have been argued against with misinformation.... At this point it's becoming an unpleasant back and forth so I leave you all to it. But please quit dodging my challenge. Show us at least 20 ticks within 6 seconds. Also take rele to 1vX sometime. Prove it's sooooo nerf worthy....

No youre actually wrong lol the whole point is that rele is ticking every light attack as well as every second. [snip] There is no misinformation only your misunderstanding of it. And you literally said that 5 ticks couldn't happen in 1.5 seconds outside of some made up over complicated scenario and I just showed you a very simple and easy to understand/ easy to execute method to do it. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

StaticWave

Weckless wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

By spam light attacks I assume you mean spam light attacks, as we have already discussed the downside of projectile based weave timing. In that case, this is a light attack build of some kind, or it could be a relequen based heavy attacks build. Either way you are trading the damage of a spammable ability for a portion of the damage, and the trade off here is that you don't need as much sustain so you end up with higher stats.

Hey that sounds like a unique build based off relequen. It does NOT sound overpowered in any way, and would likely fall over to meta builds.

Thank you for supporting build diversity 😁

You aren't actually trading anything but a 5 piece set that can output more DPS than a tradition 5 piece set or any ability in the game.

I demonstrated in one of my CMX screenshots how in 1.5s, I received 5 ticks of Relequen for a total of 5k damage. That's more than 2.5k damage a second, for zero cost other than spamming light attacks which everyone always do.

There is no downside. You don't waste as much resources because applying 3-4 abilities with a DoT component that last between 10-20s and then spamming light attacks to proc Relequen 3 times per second is NOT as taxing as using a spammable every second.

Hardcore BG players on PC NA are already abusing this mechanic and outputting 4k-5k DPS. For some players, Relequen makes up 30% of their total damage.

You would not understand how broken this is unless you play in a high MMR BG game or run into the hardcore players that will stack as much cheese as possible. I run into them daily, and I am telling you how it currently is at the high level of PvP.

Call it "elite mentality"or whatever, I'm simply pointing out the cheese in high level PvP. People can decide to pick this set up and try it for themselves, or ignore it and let the few hardcore players dominate. Not my call.

You are providing sever misinformation here. It's absurd. 5 ticks within 1.5 seconds can only be from highly situational and condensed instances. In other words, I challenge you to demonstrate a 5 ticks per 1.5 second rate consistently, as in for example produce this multiple times concurrently.

Show us 20 ticks within 6 seconds

[snip] You already outted yourself the second you claimed relequen enables you to use blastbones as a spammable, which can only be interpreted as relequen gives you enough damage to be able to summon blastbones and spam light attacks and do viable damage which shouldnt be a thing. [snip]

Lol I stopped arguing with him. There’s no point.

I’m in a discord with the sweatiest BG players on PC NA (the kind that runs premades and stack as much cheese as possible), and literally every single one of them know and admit Relequen is broken. Some of them are also using it in their build pulling 4k+ DPS for merely spamming light attacks.

Should I take that information from sweaty PvPers who actually tested this setup in PvP, or take information from people who clearly are trying to defend their setup and calling my attempt to bring light to this bug “misinformation”? Idk man the answer is pretty clear.

[edited to remove quote]

Melzo

[snip]

The Way of Fire set procs on dot damage and needs to be debuffed, the Stinging Slashes set should not turn a point damage skill into full spam and should depend on weapon damage like all proc sets. As a result, these two sets are the strongest combination in the game. Both have obvious bugs. But what about the rele. This set is only worn by archers. And only sorcerers... Moreover, it requires 10 attacks to work and crit damage does not apply to it. The maximum that can be done is to add a cooldown of one second. Otherwise, this set is not so common and is more difficult to play than the previous two sets. One swing of the duals is enough to make both sets work.

I don't see the point in nerfing rele unless the other two sets are nerfed.

[edited to remove quote]

xylena_lazarow

Melzo wrote: »

I don't see the point in nerfing rele unless the other two sets are nerfed.

Nerfing these sets won't improve build diversity, classes that are currently held together by procs will be forced to move to the next best procs, and the meta will lose damage and overall become more tanky. They really need to un-nerf class dot pressure in PvP, that's why we're in such a proc heavy meta, pressure damage needs to exist somehow.

Sure nerf Relequen though because screw farming PvE Trials for PvP.

Melzo

Are you serious? So you think the Way of Fire set should proc from dot damage? This is clearly a bug and the set should only work on direct damage. Duals from dragonstar arena are too strong for this meta. And the combo of these two sets completely destroys any fair game. If I want to play through the base stats with any class, then I will lose to any sorcerer with these two sets. They have absurdly high damage.

The base stats don't do much damage and are very difficult to play through. Dk was able to play only because of the corrosion and this allows him not to invest points in penetration, but most classes cannot do this. There are a lot of complaints about the fact that the sorcerer in the mage morph is weak and the templar is useless in close combat with his prong. There are so many reports that the varden is strong but he has some of the weakest skills in the game. Direct damage from his cockroaches deals 4-5 thousand damage. And only because of these broken proc sets and the combination of passive skills with them, he is considered very strong. Without these Necromancer proc sets, it's just impossible to play. These proc sets completely break the gameplay of the classes and they need to either be eliminated or somehow balance and strengthen the basic skills of the classes.

Necrotech_Master

Melzo wrote: »

Are you serious? So you think the Way of Fire set should proc from dot damage? This is clearly a bug and the set should only work on direct damage. Duals from dragonstar arena are too strong for this meta. And the combo of these two sets completely destroys any fair game. If I want to play through the base stats with any class, then I will lose to any sorcerer with these two sets. They have absurdly high damage.

The base stats don't do much damage and are very difficult to play through. Dk was able to play only because of the corrosion and this allows him not to invest points in penetration, but most classes cannot do this. There are a lot of complaints about the fact that the sorcerer in the mage morph is weak and the templar is useless in close combat with his prong. There are so many reports that the varden is strong but he has some of the weakest skills in the game. Direct damage from his cockroaches deals 4-5 thousand damage. And only because of these broken proc sets and the combination of passive skills with them, he is considered very strong. Without these Necromancer proc sets, it's just impossible to play. These proc sets completely break the gameplay of the classes and they need to either be eliminated or somehow balance and strengthen the basic skills of the classes.

the discussion is about rele not way of the fire

way of fire only procs from weapon dmg with 2 sec cooldown, blood craze is weapon skill, and its dot is still considered weapon dmg, there is nothing wrong with that

it would also proc from the bleed dot from carve because its also a weapon skill

honestly blame zos for making the dots 2 sec tick rates, so that way of the fire is proc on every tick lol

Melzo

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Are you serious? So you think the Way of Fire set should proc from dot damage? This is clearly a bug and the set should only work on direct damage. Duals from dragonstar arena are too strong for this meta. And the combo of these two sets completely destroys any fair game. If I want to play through the base stats with any class, then I will lose to any sorcerer with these two sets. They have absurdly high damage.

The base stats don't do much damage and are very difficult to play through. Dk was able to play only because of the corrosion and this allows him not to invest points in penetration, but most classes cannot do this. There are a lot of complaints about the fact that the sorcerer in the mage morph is weak and the templar is useless in close combat with his prong. There are so many reports that the varden is strong but he has some of the weakest skills in the game. Direct damage from his cockroaches deals 4-5 thousand damage. And only because of these broken proc sets and the combination of passive skills with them, he is considered very strong. Without these Necromancer proc sets, it's just impossible to play. These proc sets completely break the gameplay of the classes and they need to either be eliminated or somehow balance and strengthen the basic skills of the classes.

the discussion is about rele not way of the fire

way of fire only procs from weapon dmg with 2 sec cooldown, blood craze is weapon skill, and its dot is still considered weapon dmg, there is nothing wrong with that

it would also proc from the bleed dot from carve because its also a weapon skill

honestly blame zos for making the dots 2 sec tick rates, so that way of the fire is proc on every tick lol

This set works even if you are at a distance of 30 meters with a melee weapon....

Necrotech_Master

Melzo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Are you serious? So you think the Way of Fire set should proc from dot damage? This is clearly a bug and the set should only work on direct damage. Duals from dragonstar arena are too strong for this meta. And the combo of these two sets completely destroys any fair game. If I want to play through the base stats with any class, then I will lose to any sorcerer with these two sets. They have absurdly high damage.

The base stats don't do much damage and are very difficult to play through. Dk was able to play only because of the corrosion and this allows him not to invest points in penetration, but most classes cannot do this. There are a lot of complaints about the fact that the sorcerer in the mage morph is weak and the templar is useless in close combat with his prong. There are so many reports that the varden is strong but he has some of the weakest skills in the game. Direct damage from his cockroaches deals 4-5 thousand damage. And only because of these broken proc sets and the combination of passive skills with them, he is considered very strong. Without these Necromancer proc sets, it's just impossible to play. These proc sets completely break the gameplay of the classes and they need to either be eliminated or somehow balance and strengthen the basic skills of the classes.

the discussion is about rele not way of the fire

way of fire only procs from weapon dmg with 2 sec cooldown, blood craze is weapon skill, and its dot is still considered weapon dmg, there is nothing wrong with that

it would also proc from the bleed dot from carve because its also a weapon skill

honestly blame zos for making the dots 2 sec tick rates, so that way of the fire is proc on every tick lol

This set works even if you are at a distance of 30 meters with a melee weapon....

the way of the fire set doesnt require a melee attack to proc, so range doesnt matter

Melzo

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Are you serious? So you think the Way of Fire set should proc from dot damage? This is clearly a bug and the set should only work on direct damage. Duals from dragonstar arena are too strong for this meta. And the combo of these two sets completely destroys any fair game. If I want to play through the base stats with any class, then I will lose to any sorcerer with these two sets. They have absurdly high damage.

The base stats don't do much damage and are very difficult to play through. Dk was able to play only because of the corrosion and this allows him not to invest points in penetration, but most classes cannot do this. There are a lot of complaints about the fact that the sorcerer in the mage morph is weak and the templar is useless in close combat with his prong. There are so many reports that the varden is strong but he has some of the weakest skills in the game. Direct damage from his cockroaches deals 4-5 thousand damage. And only because of these broken proc sets and the combination of passive skills with them, he is considered very strong. Without these Necromancer proc sets, it's just impossible to play. These proc sets completely break the gameplay of the classes and they need to either be eliminated or somehow balance and strengthen the basic skills of the classes.

the discussion is about rele not way of the fire

way of fire only procs from weapon dmg with 2 sec cooldown, blood craze is weapon skill, and its dot is still considered weapon dmg, there is nothing wrong with that

it would also proc from the bleed dot from carve because its also a weapon skill

honestly blame zos for making the dots 2 sec tick rates, so that way of the fire is proc on every tick lol

This set works even if you are at a distance of 30 meters with a melee weapon....

the way of the fire set doesnt require a melee attack to proc, so range doesnt matter

These are just excuses. Many sets are broken including this one. If we consider the hint as an absolute, then the rele works as it is written.

Skullstachio

I may have partly cracked this one.(but may be wrong here) Looking at the description for both arms of relequen and savage werewolf with some key highlights bolded for convenience:
Arms of relequen: your light and heavy attacks apply a stack of harmful winds to your target for 5 seconds. Harmful winds deal x physical damage per stack every 1 second. This effect can stack once every 0.5 seconds, up to 10 times and scales off the higher of your weapon or spell damage.

Savage Werewolf: your light attacks made within melee range rend flesh, causing your enemy to bleed for x bleed damage instantly and additionally every 2 seconds for 4 seconds. This effect scales off the higher of your weapon or spell damage.

My guess is: damage from relequen's harmful winds may unintentionally but similarly to SW be applying instantly on application but also as well as each second and with each light/heavy attack hence the numbers seen in the OP...

In its current iteration, I can only imagine how bad it is if used with a lightning staff heavy attack...

A possible way to solve this:
your light and heavy attacks apply a stack of harmful winds to your target for 5.5 seconds once every 0.5 seconds. Harmful winds deal x physical damage per stack every 1 second after a 0.5 second delay. This effect can stack once every 0.5 seconds, up to 10 times and scales off the higher of your weapon or spell damage.

Thoughts: by adding a 0.5 second cooldown to the application of harmful winds, I would not know how it would play out, but increasing the duration of harmful winds to 5.5 seconds and adding a 0.5 second delay to it might alleviate the amount of damage dealt by it upfront when applying fresh stacks, the delay is so that it only starts dealing damage after the 0.5 second delay which is enough time for the first tick of damage to occur before the simueltaneous reapplication of harmful winds occurs.

Edit for clarification: I do not have arms of relequen, but I have used savage werewolf before and partly know where the OP is coming from in regards to set damage application.

Cast_El

This set is too popular for PvE player to be nerfed, solution: add the "against monster" in the description = problem solved

Part of the problem solved actually, because meta chaser like most of Stam sorc will look for another set like this if it's get nerfed. The problem is elsewhere : pvp stam sorc play style oriented by devs' choices

taugrim

So I didn't experience Relequen in BGs until yesterday, fighting another Arcanist running with 37k Health across multiple BGs.

Relequen generates high pressure, and because it's triggered off light attacks, you can't exactly run away without getting pelted constantly by an ever-increasing damage stack that over-ticks multiple times.

Also, @StaticWave has been a long-time regular in high-MMR BGs on PC NA. (He used to play under a different handle). He's a good player.

StaticWave

taugrim wrote: »

So I didn't experience Relequen in BGs until yesterday, fighting another Arcanist running with 37k Health across multiple BGs.

Relequen generates high pressure, and because it's triggered off light attacks, you can't exactly run away without getting pelted constantly by an ever-increasing damage stack that over-ticks multiple times.

Also, @StaticWave has been a long-time regular in high-MMR BGs on PC NA. (He used to play under a different handle). He's a good player.

Was it something Musical? (can’t say the exact name because of forum rules). If it was him, then I’ve run into him several times this week. I actually had to switch my build to a super mobile one to run away when he has stacks on me lol. I can’t imagine fighting that with a less mobile build.

Relequen is no doubt pretty hard to deal with for most classes, this is evident at the high level of PvP. It doesn’t help that the people running Relequen also has master DW, Vate staff, and a bunch of other DoTs stacking on top of Relequen.

taugrim

StaticWave wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

So I didn't experience Relequen in BGs until yesterday, fighting another Arcanist running with 37k Health across multiple BGs.

Relequen generates high pressure, and because it's triggered off light attacks, you can't exactly run away without getting pelted constantly by an ever-increasing damage stack that over-ticks multiple times.

Also, @StaticWave has been a long-time regular in high-MMR BGs on PC NA. (He used to play under a different handle). He's a good player.

Was it something Musical? (can’t say the exact name because of forum rules). If it was him, then I’ve run into him several times this week. I actually had to switch my build to a super mobile one to run away when he has stacks on me lol. I can’t imagine fighting that with a less mobile build.

Relequen is no doubt pretty hard to deal with for most classes, this is evident at the high level of PvP. It doesn’t help that the people running Relequen also has master DW, Vate staff, and a bunch of other DoTs stacking on top of Relequen.

Yes, that's the same player.

He's not using Master DW. He definitely uses Vate Staff, but I think frontbars staff too for Crushing Shock.

sabresandiego_ESO

I don’t recall seeing relequen in bgs but it sounds like it would be really good. The old savage werewolf was great and I still use it sometimes to troll people even though it’s only “good” now. But sets like way of fire are usually better: I see it used constantly with master DW and vate ice and maarselok. So many people use cookie cutter builds these days

Overamera

nerf rele disgusting carry set in pvp

ZOS_Lunar

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sabresandiego_ESO

The only guy I’ve noticed in bgs using it does well. He uses a destro staff and force pulse. I wonder if that procs relequen multiple times at once

LittlePinkDot

[snip] It's an end game PVE set.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]

JerBearESO

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

The only guy I’ve noticed in bgs using it does well. He uses a destro staff and force pulse. I wonder if that procs relequen multiple times at once

Sounds like they are using draugrkin with it plus charged trait possibly. Would be a lot of instances for draugrkin to boost.

Rele itself is only procced from light/heavy attacks

StaticWave

"I told you so" has never been more appropriate to say

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

"I told you so" has never been more appropriate to say

So now you are 1/22.

StaticWave

Daily reminder that Relequen is overperforming and needs to be adjusted

karthrag_inak

Necro thread!

IZZEFlameLash

I'd say make this only work on monsters. It is meant to be a trial dps set after all... should be a sufficient nerf.

JerBearESO

For anyone hopping on this necro thread, the story is that Static duals alot it seems and rele is OP for duals where there's no reason for the stacks to drop. LoS is frowned upon in duals.

In actual PvP game play rele is not overperforming by itself as it cannot crit and the stacks are lost easily, so literally just play around it....

Have to this day died one time to someone using rele....

JerBearESO

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

I'd say make this only work on monsters. It is meant to be a trial dps set after all... should be a sufficient nerf.

Please do not advocate removal of a playstyle from PvP. Rele is one of the last heavy attack build tools for PvP that doesn't use sergeants.... it allows for a more hybrid HA build since you can keep up some pressure when weaving LAs

Alchimiste1

@JerBearESO its been 6 months buddy, rele has become more prevalent. I think most people have realized it's a pretty strong set. You said a rele build wouldn't be able to beat a meta build, but I think everyone realizes now that rele is the meta build for some range setups.

My overall opinion on rele is that yes, its overperforming 1v1. It can pull around 1500 dps compared to sets like wof that pull around 500 if you are parsing someone.
I think it's a great set to xv1 people with open world.
I think its decent at best solo open world.
I do not know where it stands gvg