New Mist Form and easy access to movement speed killed Sorc identity

merpins

Sorc: two skill pets that last until killed, or removed from your bar.
Necro: temporary pets that require a resource to summon, which last for a set duration or until killed.
Warden: a single ultimate pet that lasts until killed, or removed from your bar.

Similar ideas used, very different in practice.
Sorc's identity is a lightning mage with daedra pets for magicka, and for stam it's known for its hurricane skill.
Necro is known for... being a necromancer.
Warden is known for... Having a bear.

StaticWave

DrNukenstein wrote: »

yeah, but the difference is that burst only takes 1 second of setup and can be delivered from range. 2 seconds if you want to use curse to make it a 30k damage 3 pointer. I've eaten some nasty shalks/bones+dawnbreaker combos but that's not in league with what sorcs can do... from relative safety... every other second.

I’ve been using Overload + Crystal Weapon + Curse + Bound Arms + Crushing Shock in duels for awhile now and most of my opponents dodge them quite easily. I also do the same against other Sorcs. It is very rare to have all of them land at the same time, and it only happens on people who don’t expect the combo. Once it happens and they survive, you have a low chance of repeating it.

I’ve had several fights against a competent NB who rolls 3 times to avoid 3 of my Overloads, then blocks the remaining 6 while healing thru my damage with HoTs and Healthy Offering.

It’s strong on paper but requires a lot of setting up and can be dodged easily, which is fair because that amount of damage should have counterplay. I just don’t think it’s as good as people make it to be.

DrNukenstein

@acastanza_ESO

at least 3 out of 4 of those options apply to any given form of burst damage. But what makes sorc burst unique (please note I never complained about it or called it OP, just mentioned that it's one of their very special things) is that the sorc can do it every other second as long as they have the resources, and can do it from safety as long as they have the positioning. It is very different from the stacked/delayed burst available to other classes which typically has to be delivered up close and/or is on a significantly longer cool down.

@StaticWave
Everyone on every class whiffs their burst some times, and it's more common to whiff in a 1v1 when you're the only target to mind. The difference is there's no significant time or mechanical delay to when you can repeat the burst. The delay is more about whether or not the target is ready for it which is less of an issue in pvp that isn't 1v1. Spectral Bow usually needs a stun to land reliably, that stun comes from off-balance (16+ second cooldown) 120 point Incap (40ish second cool down), or a low/no damage hard stun skill (weakens the potential of the burst window, requires a skill slot)

Shalks and bones need to be coordinated with a high damage skill which is usually going to be Dawnbreaker (40 second cooldown) to really go boom. Shalks requires that after 6 seconds you are standing on your targets toes.

And once more, this is not a nerf sorcs complaint. This is just saying that their form of burst is unique amongst the classes to the point where it's as big a part of their identity as streak/bl

xDeusEJRx

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Streak and Speed has never been the Sorcerer's identity, not sure if your aware of this but the Nightblade and the Arcanist Class are MUCH faster, if anything the Sorcerer's identity is being the Pet Class and how is Mist Form effecting Streak? the ability requires you to select a location like liquid lightning, other then also being a teleport it functions nothing alike.

I think he's talking about pvp, but sorc has notoriously been the "run and gun" class for PVP, the mobility streak gives you allows you to rush in, burst someone down and rush out, or speed away from people. Only really Nightblade had comparable mobility because of cloak and shadow image. For pvp, that kind of is sorc's identity.

Even so IMO sorc's run and gun identity still works because sorc can use mist form AND streak and rotate between the two and have no ramping cost. So people still can't reliably catch a sorc because they'll kill their mag pool and a sorc rotating between mist and streak will manage their mag a lot better.

Turtle_Bot

This post will be long, so I've spoilered my replies and comments to make it shorter and hopefully easier to read and follow.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Im pretty sure the Sorcerer's ability to survive in PvP was stacking shields.

Also so what if the Vampire can do something similar, so can the Arcanist Class.

Shields/shield stacking

Static is right here, stamsorcs have never stacked shields (the cost is far too high, even for magsorcs, let alone stamsorcs and the shields as a mechanic are just too weak compared to other options such as rolling, blocking and specifically block casting).
Stacking shields is no longer the way to go with magsorc (I hate to be the bearer of bad news to shield stacking enjoyers, but the constant adjustments and changes to the shield mechanics over the years has rendered this playstyle very inefficient (at best) and basically obsolete (at worst) compared to other defensive options, see block heals). I've gone into the numbers much more in other threads.

The top magsorcs run vigor + hardened ward + dark conversion and rely heavily on streak creating enough of a gap to allow for multiple dark conversion to go uninterrupted to heal any decent amount. So even magsorcs are playing like stamsorcs, just with an alternative buffer to damage of a shield instead of dodge rolling.

The alternative (which is getting nerfed heavily next patch) is crutching on Mara's balm back bar to give sorcs the missing HoTs and burst heal that other classes inherently have access to in their class kit.

Mist form

This is why I was saying that mist form (while a fun ability) would be completely detrimental to sorcerers identity in PvP when the change was first revealed and why I will continue to say that mist forms change is a very apt reason to why sorcerers need to be given a proper burst heal, not tied to pets that is as reliable as other classes burst heals (even if the tooltip is slightly lower (5-10%) than other class's burst heals to account for streaks slightly better cast animation). The mobility in this game has reached a tipping point and sorcerers need to be reworked to be brought into the modern game to account for this significant change.

It's not just for PvP either, the only sorcerers you see in PvE are HA builds, pet builds (even PvE stamsorcs are now Petsorcs with a stamina weapon), or a combination of those 2 because the class is simply completely dead outside of those 2 niche builds that are ineffective in PvP (outside of the tri-focus exploit in IC).

It's not just mist form itself that is the issue (although it is the most obvious one), it's the combination of all the mobility options being made completely generic and so free and easy to obtain for all classes (exactly what I've said for months now on my sorc threads.
- mist form
- free major expedition from RaT
- the free 10% movement (same as minor expedition) from celerity CP
- the free 21% movement speed from swift traits on jewelry
- the free 10% movement from medium armor
- the free 15%/45% movement from wildhunt ring
and all of this is not counting the out of combat movement that is also freely available on top of this, that has enabled all classes to have the same effective movement speed and mobility of sorcerer, while sorcerer has not had its healing capabilities updated to reflect this widely (and freely) available mobility that was granted to the other classes.

Mist form is the "straw that broke the camels back" if you will, because up until the mist form change, sorcs were the only class that could still use horizontal unpathable terrain to their advantage (without setting up before hand, see NB shade).

As a sorc main, I immediately tried out the new mist form and after a few minutes to adjust to the new timing, I was able to easily replicate anything I could do with BoL, including how to cross unpathable terrain, change direction mid mist form, I could also use mist form to climb ledges that streak simply cannot climb due to the terrain gap making mistforms mobility even stronger than BoL. To the point that as a sorc main, BoL is now a dead skill. Mist form simply has too many good secondary effects and procs far too many good passives and is so insanely cheap to cast over BoL that it's just not worth it to slot BoL over mist form, even on a sorc, and with vampire being almost mandatory in PvP thanks to the undeath passive, it's not like you're giving up anything to obtain the advantages mist form gives, you would have already had the cost increase, weakness to flame damage and lower health recovery due to being stage 3 for the undeath passive or minimum stage 2 for the damage buff from stealth (looking at gankers here who typically ignore undeath for their builds).
The only thing keeping streak ahead of mist form is the stun and how the stun on streak saves bar space which is the most premium resource for sorcerers. Sorcs just don't have the bar space to slot mist form + stun due to how many abilities need to be slotted for their burst window compared to other classes due to how lackluster sorcs access to buffs, debuffs and secondary effects are in the class kit.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

yeah, but the difference is that burst only takes 1 second of setup and can be delivered from range. 2 seconds if you want to use curse to make it a 30k damage 3 pointer. I've eaten some nasty shalks/bones+dawnbreaker combos but that's not in league with what sorcs can do... from relative safety... every other second.

Sorcs burst combo.

I want to clarify a few things here. Curse has a 3.5 second timer (0.5 seconds longer than wardens delayed burst) for the first hit and a 12 second overall timer to land the second hit (3 seconds longer than mag beetles delayed burst)

Curse also doesn't deal its full damage in AoE (only half damage), it costs 20% more to use than beetles, it doesn't provide any secondary effects (not even 1 of major or minor breach while beetles gives both) and the trade off for beetles being a skill shot is that curse can be cleansed and has a very loud and distinct cue on its target when cast, while beetles cannot be cleansed and has no cue on its target.

So it takes much more than 1 or 2 seconds to set up a sorc burst combo, it's 3.5 seconds minimum if you want to deal any real damage to anyone who's remotely competent and it relies on them not having any cleanse (or Mara's) or the ability to simply dodge roll the entire combo as soon as they hear/see curse being cast on them.

It's why all sorcs are currently being ran as proc builds (stamina with masters DW for melee or way of fire/relequen for bow and magsorc running draughrkin + crushing shock + ele sus), because the class is completely dependent on the proc sets to provide enough pressure over time by draining an enemies resources to allow for a burst combo to actually land and deal damage.
Simply straight up using a sorcs burst combo against any semi-competent player always results in it being dodge rolled or simply shrugged off and healed through because it takes 3-4 GCD to line up whereas other classes only require 2-3 GCD at most to line up their burst. Anyone dying to a straight up sorc burst combo of overload, frags and curse (with nothing else being applied) is either afk or has a major L2P issue.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Streak and Speed has never been the Sorcerer's identity, not sure if your aware of this but the Nightblade and the Arcanist Class are MUCH faster, if anything the Sorcerer's identity is being the Pet Class and how is Mist Form effecting Streak? the ability requires you to select a location like liquid lightning, other then also being a teleport it functions nothing alike.

I think he's talking about pvp, but sorc has notoriously been the "run and gun" class for PVP, the mobility streak gives you allows you to rush in, burst someone down and rush out, or speed away from people. Only really Nightblade had comparable mobility because of cloak and shadow image. For pvp, that kind of is sorc's identity.

Even so IMO sorc's run and gun identity still works because sorc can use mist form AND streak and rotate between the two and have no ramping cost. So people still can't reliably catch a sorc because they'll kill their mag pool and a sorc rotating between mist and streak will manage their mag a lot better.

Running both streak and mist form on sorc

I ran both for a while when mist form was first released and while the added mobility was nice (and fun), I couldn't deal any damage (I was even running a masters DW hybrid sorc to save on bar space, specifically to slot mist form and try out the "double streak", but it wasn't enough).
I tried several iterations
- frags proc as only burst skill (not enough damage and very unreliable since you rely on both an RNG proc + an RNG crit to deal any significant damage and the reduced proc chance was really severe, I still think it was bugged and much lower than the tooltip described).
- removed camo hunter for curse (not enough burst due to lower crit, my healing also greatly suffered because crit surge proc'd once every 4-5 seconds instead of once every 2-3).
- I lost utility and/or mandatory buffs from removing my shield or hurricane/lightning form making the class far too squishy.

Invis comparisons with NB to mist forms comparisons to sorc.

For the comparison of vampire passive invis to NB invis, the difference between that passive to NB invis and mist form to streak, is the 6/3 second ramp up time on the vampire passive.
NB invis will always be much better than the passive since you don't need what is essentially a 3 second cast time to activate it where as the vampire passive has what is essentially a 3 second cast time on it before it becomes active.

Meanwhile mistform is instant cast the same as BoL/streak with its difference being a 1 second travel time (with the advantage of being able to climb some vertical gaps and having greater precision with distance and where you land over streak/BoL) instead of a nearly instant travel time.

Deciding which class to play currently

If you want a high skill class with high damage and good survivability, go NB, anything else, go DK or warden (frost DK without corrosive).
It remains to be seen if the changes to PotL this upcoming patch will help plar (some plar mains are happy with it, some aren't, but it seems like it will bring them back from just being a beam bot in zergs at least).
As for sorc, throw on a generic proc stacking build and watch as DK/NB/warden does the same thing but better.
For cro, you have my condolences, probably have to take the same path as sorc for now with stacking DoT procs and out of class abilities with blast bones, slotting mist form and essentially playing an inferior DK/NB/warden.
Finally arcanist, I haven't had too much time to play around with it since the latest changes, but it seems like you can just slot mist form and run deadly + masters DW and basically become a sorc with better utility.

Like @StaticWave has said in this thread (and myself and multiple other sorc mains have said countless times in the past over numerous threads), the free movement speed given to other classes via generic skills, CP, traits, and passives/secondary effects, has been a huge issue for sorcs, especially in PvP where mobility was sorcerers niche over the other classes and the reason to deny the class a proper heal that had no downside. The change to mist form is the straw that broke the camels back for sorcerer in PvP and as a class with any unique identity overall.

(As well as NBs getting an actual good burst heal which showed that it is very possible for a glass cannon class that takes skill to use effectively to be given very high mobility, mitigation, damage and healing all at once).

LunaFlora

everyone can use the dual wield teleport
and the jailbreaker set from base game Banished Cells gives you minor expedition so that's clearly not special to sorcerer

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Between streak, shields, pets, and just kinda cool animations-- I don't think the sorc identity has been lost. I can see that some of their iconic abilities have been duplicated and given to others, but I don't think they are alone in this.

So honestly, if anyone agrees with me on that, maybe we can divert this topic just a bit. And basically not hate on mist form and perhaps just talk about generic movement speed instead. Meaning the "on foot" speed.

Because I do feel it has gotten out of hand. Access to major/minor expedition... Swift jewelry... Snare removal and immunity... It's all a bit much. And it isn't even that this class can do it and they shouldn't be able to... It's just more like it's become so mandatory that you can't even construct a functional build without it. Because you won't be able to catch ANYbody.

Mist form can stay how it is, in my opinion. It was lame before-- maybe it's lame now too-- whatever.

I wouldn't mind seeing major expedition removed from Race Against Time. I find this to be the main culprit. And perhaps nerf Swift jewelry.

Everybody would slow down a bit and there would be a discrepancy between those that still found barspace to make it happen and those that, now, have different ability choices.

8 hours ago I played a Capture the Flag BG game mode in Deeping Drome map. There was a DK in the other team who used a full proc build with Elusive Mist Form. We all know how powerful DKs are just with stat builds. A proc DK? No explanation needed here.

So what happened was that DK and his Purple team was fighting Red team at their flag, I was in the middle of the map watching the fight happening. There's a large gap between the center platform of the map and the platform connecting to Red team's flag. You can see what I mean in this screenshot below:



The only way for you to clear this gap is by using Streak. You cannot jump over it, even with enough momentum and bunny hopping. As I saw the fight, I decided to flank the Purple team from behind by Streaking through that gap and blasting my ranged skills at them, sort of sandwiching them between me and the Red team.

Unfortunately Red team consisted of mostly PvE players and were wiped out pretty quick. Purple ignored the flag, turned around, and went straight for me. I was confident that I could escape because i had Streak and I could just use it to clear the gap, forcing them to take the long way to get to the center. I was also far enough that they wouldn't be able to reach me with their gap closers.

As I was retreating, I took heavy ranged damage and barely made it out alive with low resources when I crossed the gap, but you know what happened next? The DK with Mist Form used it to clear the gap, sprinted towards me with Major Expedition and Fossilized me.

At that point, I thought to myself: "Why is this even a thing?". How is an overperforming class with Corrosive, a strong burst heal and defensive capabilites, also given a BoL copycat ability? Why do I even play Sorc when I can just hop on a DK, slot Mist Form, and be tanky and mobile at the same time?

That is why I made this thread. You don't really think about it until you run into a situation where your class identity is being used against you.

a warden could have crossed the gap with vine grasp if there's an ally there. anyone with dual wield could have used the teleport skill if an enemy stood at the edge. all abilities that let you cross gaps.
there's more to sorcerer than streak and it was not the only gap closer in the game before the new mistform

NuarBlack

It would make me really sad if sorc was reduced to just streak for identity. While an awesome skill and a part if it, it isn't the whole identity. Streak being partially copied is not sorcs problem, Pets are. Pets bloat the class and don't leave room for identity outside of them. Every pet skill needs a rework to where one morph is not a pet or at least not a permanent pet. Maybe
winged matriarch is just a burst heal with a winged twilight animation. Also sorcs got poor compensation when their execute passive got reworked(I know it was overpowered and deserved it). Sorc should have got some better shock and physical synergy and identity. Maybe special bonuses against Targets affected by status effects from those damage types, like more penetration or crit chance against concussed targets maybe.(minor vulnerability has become more common and less valuable relatively now).

Even as a sorc main since launch I like what mist form adds to the game in alternative playstyles. Since I have played since launch I am not a single character player, and even with Arcanist coming, mist form opens up some new play styles that keep stuff fresh. Especially since it doesn't function great as a gap closer. Other classes to be honest have better gap closer options than Mist form. Kiting mage is nice to have in other flavors. It may be too dense of a skill or vamp is overturned, but the core function now is a positive for the game I think.

StaticWave

LunaFlora wrote: »

everyone can use the dual wield teleport
and the jailbreaker set from base game Banished Cells gives you minor expedition so that's clearly not special to sorcerer

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Between streak, shields, pets, and just kinda cool animations-- I don't think the sorc identity has been lost. I can see that some of their iconic abilities have been duplicated and given to others, but I don't think they are alone in this.

So honestly, if anyone agrees with me on that, maybe we can divert this topic just a bit. And basically not hate on mist form and perhaps just talk about generic movement speed instead. Meaning the "on foot" speed.

Because I do feel it has gotten out of hand. Access to major/minor expedition... Swift jewelry... Snare removal and immunity... It's all a bit much. And it isn't even that this class can do it and they shouldn't be able to... It's just more like it's become so mandatory that you can't even construct a functional build without it. Because you won't be able to catch ANYbody.

Mist form can stay how it is, in my opinion. It was lame before-- maybe it's lame now too-- whatever.

I wouldn't mind seeing major expedition removed from Race Against Time. I find this to be the main culprit. And perhaps nerf Swift jewelry.

Everybody would slow down a bit and there would be a discrepancy between those that still found barspace to make it happen and those that, now, have different ability choices.

8 hours ago I played a Capture the Flag BG game mode in Deeping Drome map. There was a DK in the other team who used a full proc build with Elusive Mist Form. We all know how powerful DKs are just with stat builds. A proc DK? No explanation needed here.

So what happened was that DK and his Purple team was fighting Red team at their flag, I was in the middle of the map watching the fight happening. There's a large gap between the center platform of the map and the platform connecting to Red team's flag. You can see what I mean in this screenshot below:



The only way for you to clear this gap is by using Streak. You cannot jump over it, even with enough momentum and bunny hopping. As I saw the fight, I decided to flank the Purple team from behind by Streaking through that gap and blasting my ranged skills at them, sort of sandwiching them between me and the Red team.

Unfortunately Red team consisted of mostly PvE players and were wiped out pretty quick. Purple ignored the flag, turned around, and went straight for me. I was confident that I could escape because i had Streak and I could just use it to clear the gap, forcing them to take the long way to get to the center. I was also far enough that they wouldn't be able to reach me with their gap closers.

As I was retreating, I took heavy ranged damage and barely made it out alive with low resources when I crossed the gap, but you know what happened next? The DK with Mist Form used it to clear the gap, sprinted towards me with Major Expedition and Fossilized me.

At that point, I thought to myself: "Why is this even a thing?". How is an overperforming class with Corrosive, a strong burst heal and defensive capabilites, also given a BoL copycat ability? Why do I even play Sorc when I can just hop on a DK, slot Mist Form, and be tanky and mobile at the same time?

That is why I made this thread. You don't really think about it until you run into a situation where your class identity is being used against you.

a warden could have crossed the gap with vine grasp if there's an ally there. anyone with dual wield could have used the teleport skill if an enemy stood at the edge. all abilities that let you cross gaps.
there's more to sorcerer than streak and it was not the only gap closer in the game before the new mistform

But I wasn’t at the edge so what is your point lol? I literally said in that comment that I was out of range of their gap closer…

Wolfchild07

Didn't streak used to cover more distance back in the day? It'd be nice if it got it's original range back.

i11ionward

StaticWave wrote: »

Sorc's identity has always been the ability to enter or leave a fight at will with Streak/Ball of Lightning and have a fast movement speed. That identity is now gone when every class can slot Mist Form if they want to or stack movement speed with little investment. This does not help that Sorc is also the only class whose healing is not yet updated with the recent meta. Why play sorc when other classes have better healing and can also copy Sorc's identity?

If ZOS's Dev team is not willing to give Sorc a reliable source of healing, then I want Mist Form change reverted and movement speed sources harder to get.

If we compare only in terms of changing position, then Mist Form absolutely loses to Streak / Ball of Lightning. Mist Form is a very slow skill and does not affect sorc's identity.
But in terms of additional effects, Mist Form is comparable to Streak. And Ball of Lightning absolutely sucks compared to Mist Form.

ketsparrowhawk

100% agree with the original post.

I'm a Templar main but I also play quite a lot of Sorc. New Mist Form has been quite a boon for my Templar! But I do find myself logging in with my Sorc less and less.. because I can get a big part of that power fantasy from other classes. A ranged BeamPlar with Mist Form is basically a reskin of a Sorc but with way better survivability and group support.

Sotha_Sil

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

A ranged BeamPlar with Mist Form is basically a reskin of a Sorc but with way better survivability and group support.

group support yes, survivability not sure about that (since streak > mist form) but damage, definitely no. Honestly, if you nerf mist form, templar will probably lack mobility even more and mist from wasn't that kind of game changer anyway.

ketsparrowhawk

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

A ranged BeamPlar with Mist Form is basically a reskin of a Sorc but with way better survivability and group support.

group support yes, survivability not sure about that (since streak > mist form) but damage, definitely no. Honestly, if you nerf mist form, templar will probably die.

Survivability is WAY easier on a templar even without a teleport ability. A properly-built templar can just kinda chill in the middle of the meat blender. Their survivability will be even better in a couple of weeks with a buffed rune and easy uptime on Major Protection. The biggest complaint from sorcs I see on here is lack of reliable healing. I personally always target sorcs because they're usually pretty squishy. Whereas I avoid attacking Templars because it usually requires a ton of effort to kill them.

Backlash is about to be fixed. Honestly a reliable delayed-burst is the only thing holding rangePlar back. With that fixed and the STILL-ridiculous beam, "near-sorc-like" mobility thanks to Mist, superior group support and superior survivability.. Sorcs def have some strong competition in their niche. Templars don't have the up-front damage that a Sorc has but they make up for it in execute and the variety of other benefits they bring to a group.

Melzo

I'll give you a couple of arguments.
-Mist form does no damage.
-No deafening.
-Does not grant immunity to rooting or slowing. I even used it as a necromancer. But you don't have mines?? Did you know how it infuriates the owners of the mist form? It is much easier to control an enemy without immobilization immunity.
-Mist form is pronounced slower than streak.

No matter how much I played as a vampire with a mist form, I rarely could catch up with the sorcerer.

I can understand that the meta is not on your side, but don't attribute all your problems to one skill. This skill just did not change the situation in pvp. I play a necromancer and didn't notice any particular advantage over a sorcerer after changing this skill.

And here are a couple more arguments for you. Dk uses snake mythic and uses myst form for AoE damage. Or use acceleration. NB rarely uses the mist form. Warden has his own skill for speeding up and doesn't need a second one. The myst form is used mainly by the necromancer and templar. I doubt the necromancer is giving you any trouble. No necromancers no problem. All your complaints are two classes. Templar and dk. If the dk wants to catch up with you, then he does not need a mist form. And if you run away, then why do you have the right to do this, but not dk ?? Isn't that some kind of hogwash?

Is there a mist form or not. It has virtually no effect on DC. Many DKs play through crit damage and acceleration suits them even better. Mist form affects AoE damage, thus reducing the damage of the necromancer, templar jab, warden and a new arcanist class. But this buff does not affect the sorcerer in any way.

You started a topic to spoil the game for all other classes?? Personally, I lost absolutely all desire to play pvp when the necromancer was literally destroyed. He has nothing. No buff minor, no damage, no heal, no stun or immobilization. All mechanics are broken. Have you decided that a common skill that is available to everyone somehow infringes on your sorcerer ?I also want to participate in pvp but all attack, stun and speed skills are shared skills. So they *** destroy a common skill? What would one class as it is not infringed?

StaticWave

Melzo wrote: »

I'll give you a couple of arguments.
-Mist form does no damage.
-No deafening.
-Does not grant immunity to rooting or slowing. I even used it as a necromancer. But you don't have mines?? Did you know how it infuriates the owners of the mist form? It is much easier to control an enemy without immobilization immunity.
-Mist form is pronounced slower than streak.

No matter how much I played as a vampire with a mist form, I rarely could catch up with the sorcerer.

I can understand that the meta is not on your side, but don't attribute all your problems to one skill. This skill just did not change the situation in pvp. I play a necromancer and didn't notice any particular advantage over a sorcerer after changing this skill.

And here are a couple more arguments for you. Dk uses snake mythic and uses myst form for AoE damage. Or use acceleration. NB rarely uses the mist form. Warden has his own skill for speeding up and doesn't need a second one. The myst form is used mainly by the necromancer and templar. I doubt the necromancer is giving you any trouble. No necromancers no problem. All your complaints are two classes. Templar and dk. If the dk wants to catch up with you, then he does not need a mist form. And if you run away, then why do you have the right to do this, but not dk ?? Isn't that some kind of hogwash?

Is there a mist form or not. It has virtually no effect on DC. Many DKs play through crit damage and acceleration suits them even better. Mist form affects AoE damage, thus reducing the damage of the necromancer, templar jab, warden and a new arcanist class. But this buff does not affect the sorcerer in any way.

You started a topic to spoil the game for all other classes?? Personally, I lost absolutely all desire to play pvp when the necromancer was literally destroyed. He has nothing. No buff minor, no damage, no heal, no stun or immobilization. All mechanics are broken. Have you decided that a common skill that is available to everyone somehow infringes on your sorcerer ?I also want to participate in pvp but all attack, stun and speed skills are shared skills. So they *** destroy a common skill? What would one class as it is not infringed?

If you think it’s not infringing on sorc identity, then I want a burst heal on sorc that is reliable. Make the class just like everyone else

OBJnoob

But the thing is sorc SHOULD have a reliable burst heal like everyone else. So what does that do for the rest of your argument?

I'll say again what I said a day or two ago. It isn't the worst thing in the world that mist form is a bit like streak. The real problem is just how fast everybody can run.

It's too bad you don't agree, because I think you'd get less backlash if this was your focus.

Synozeer

I remember when shields were a sorc's identity. Like many things in the game, the nerf hammer went to work overtime.

Dr_Con

Vampire Mist is a wish.com version of Streak, but several magnitudes worse, please don't say it ruins sorc identity when Arcanist are literally getting the ability to make group portals.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

But the thing is sorc SHOULD have a reliable burst heal like everyone else. So what does that do for the rest of your argument?

I'll say again what I said a day or two ago. It isn't the worst thing in the world that mist form is a bit like streak. The real problem is just how fast everybody can run.

It's too bad you don't agree, because I think you'd get less backlash if this was your focus.

Should have and does have are not the same. It’s been 7 years since people suggested for a reliable burst heal, with the most recent activities regarding sorc buffs falling on deaf ears. It’s clear that ZoS probably won’t ever give the class a reliable burst heal. If they aren't willing to give the class a burst heal like everyone else, then nerf the offending changes that made surviving on sorc increasingly harder over the years.

My request isn’t just nerfing mist form. It’s both mist form and fast movement speed. I’ve presented my case for both requests very clearly in my OP and if people choose to ignore it then that’s not my fault lol.

Heck, even some people disagreed that speed is Sorc’s identity. But I don’t blame them. ZoS has given everyone so much free movement speed over the years that this has become the norm and people tend to forget that Sorc WAS the only fast class with little investment in PvP up until Summerset when Swift was introduced. Before Summerset, if you were to ask me what was the fastest class in ESO, I would say stamsorc because it was the fastest class. Now? I can't even tell what class is faster when everyone can reach 200% speed cap with 3x Swift, 5 medium, and slotting Celerity.

StaticWave

Dr_Con wrote: »

Vampire Mist is a wish.com version of Streak, but several magnitudes worse, please don't say it ruins sorc identity when Arcanist are literally getting the ability to make group portals.

Group Portal is a different ability entirely lol. You can’t compare it to Streak.

Arcanist Portal should be compared to Frozen Gate, in case people forget what it does.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This post will be long, so I've spoilered my replies and comments to make it shorter and hopefully easier to read and follow.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Im pretty sure the Sorcerer's ability to survive in PvP was stacking shields.

Also so what if the Vampire can do something similar, so can the Arcanist Class.

Shields/shield stacking

Static is right here, stamsorcs have never stacked shields (the cost is far too high, even for magsorcs, let alone stamsorcs and the shields as a mechanic are just too weak compared to other options such as rolling, blocking and specifically block casting).
Stacking shields is no longer the way to go with magsorc (I hate to be the bearer of bad news to shield stacking enjoyers, but the constant adjustments and changes to the shield mechanics over the years has rendered this playstyle very inefficient (at best) and basically obsolete (at worst) compared to other defensive options, see block heals). I've gone into the numbers much more in other threads.

The top magsorcs run vigor + hardened ward + dark conversion and rely heavily on streak creating enough of a gap to allow for multiple dark conversion to go uninterrupted to heal any decent amount. So even magsorcs are playing like stamsorcs, just with an alternative buffer to damage of a shield instead of dodge rolling.

The alternative (which is getting nerfed heavily next patch) is crutching on Mara's balm back bar to give sorcs the missing HoTs and burst heal that other classes inherently have access to in their class kit.

Mist form

This is why I was saying that mist form (while a fun ability) would be completely detrimental to sorcerers identity in PvP when the change was first revealed and why I will continue to say that mist forms change is a very apt reason to why sorcerers need to be given a proper burst heal, not tied to pets that is as reliable as other classes burst heals (even if the tooltip is slightly lower (5-10%) than other class's burst heals to account for streaks slightly better cast animation). The mobility in this game has reached a tipping point and sorcerers need to be reworked to be brought into the modern game to account for this significant change.

It's not just for PvP either, the only sorcerers you see in PvE are HA builds, pet builds (even PvE stamsorcs are now Petsorcs with a stamina weapon), or a combination of those 2 because the class is simply completely dead outside of those 2 niche builds that are ineffective in PvP (outside of the tri-focus exploit in IC).

It's not just mist form itself that is the issue (although it is the most obvious one), it's the combination of all the mobility options being made completely generic and so free and easy to obtain for all classes (exactly what I've said for months now on my sorc threads.
- mist form
- free major expedition from RaT
- the free 10% movement (same as minor expedition) from celerity CP
- the free 21% movement speed from swift traits on jewelry
- the free 10% movement from medium armor
- the free 15%/45% movement from wildhunt ring
and all of this is not counting the out of combat movement that is also freely available on top of this, that has enabled all classes to have the same effective movement speed and mobility of sorcerer, while sorcerer has not had its healing capabilities updated to reflect this widely (and freely) available mobility that was granted to the other classes.

Mist form is the "straw that broke the camels back" if you will, because up until the mist form change, sorcs were the only class that could still use horizontal unpathable terrain to their advantage (without setting up before hand, see NB shade).

As a sorc main, I immediately tried out the new mist form and after a few minutes to adjust to the new timing, I was able to easily replicate anything I could do with BoL, including how to cross unpathable terrain, change direction mid mist form, I could also use mist form to climb ledges that streak simply cannot climb due to the terrain gap making mistforms mobility even stronger than BoL. To the point that as a sorc main, BoL is now a dead skill. Mist form simply has too many good secondary effects and procs far too many good passives and is so insanely cheap to cast over BoL that it's just not worth it to slot BoL over mist form, even on a sorc, and with vampire being almost mandatory in PvP thanks to the undeath passive, it's not like you're giving up anything to obtain the advantages mist form gives, you would have already had the cost increase, weakness to flame damage and lower health recovery due to being stage 3 for the undeath passive or minimum stage 2 for the damage buff from stealth (looking at gankers here who typically ignore undeath for their builds).
The only thing keeping streak ahead of mist form is the stun and how the stun on streak saves bar space which is the most premium resource for sorcerers. Sorcs just don't have the bar space to slot mist form + stun due to how many abilities need to be slotted for their burst window compared to other classes due to how lackluster sorcs access to buffs, debuffs and secondary effects are in the class kit.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

yeah, but the difference is that burst only takes 1 second of setup and can be delivered from range. 2 seconds if you want to use curse to make it a 30k damage 3 pointer. I've eaten some nasty shalks/bones+dawnbreaker combos but that's not in league with what sorcs can do... from relative safety... every other second.

Sorcs burst combo.

I want to clarify a few things here. Curse has a 3.5 second timer (0.5 seconds longer than wardens delayed burst) for the first hit and a 12 second overall timer to land the second hit (3 seconds longer than mag beetles delayed burst)

Curse also doesn't deal its full damage in AoE (only half damage), it costs 20% more to use than beetles, it doesn't provide any secondary effects (not even 1 of major or minor breach while beetles gives both) and the trade off for beetles being a skill shot is that curse can be cleansed and has a very loud and distinct cue on its target when cast, while beetles cannot be cleansed and has no cue on its target.

So it takes much more than 1 or 2 seconds to set up a sorc burst combo, it's 3.5 seconds minimum if you want to deal any real damage to anyone who's remotely competent and it relies on them not having any cleanse (or Mara's) or the ability to simply dodge roll the entire combo as soon as they hear/see curse being cast on them.

It's why all sorcs are currently being ran as proc builds (stamina with masters DW for melee or way of fire/relequen for bow and magsorc running draughrkin + crushing shock + ele sus), because the class is completely dependent on the proc sets to provide enough pressure over time by draining an enemies resources to allow for a burst combo to actually land and deal damage.
Simply straight up using a sorcs burst combo against any semi-competent player always results in it being dodge rolled or simply shrugged off and healed through because it takes 3-4 GCD to line up whereas other classes only require 2-3 GCD at most to line up their burst. Anyone dying to a straight up sorc burst combo of overload, frags and curse (with nothing else being applied) is either afk or has a major L2P issue.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Streak and Speed has never been the Sorcerer's identity, not sure if your aware of this but the Nightblade and the Arcanist Class are MUCH faster, if anything the Sorcerer's identity is being the Pet Class and how is Mist Form effecting Streak? the ability requires you to select a location like liquid lightning, other then also being a teleport it functions nothing alike.

I think he's talking about pvp, but sorc has notoriously been the "run and gun" class for PVP, the mobility streak gives you allows you to rush in, burst someone down and rush out, or speed away from people. Only really Nightblade had comparable mobility because of cloak and shadow image. For pvp, that kind of is sorc's identity.

Even so IMO sorc's run and gun identity still works because sorc can use mist form AND streak and rotate between the two and have no ramping cost. So people still can't reliably catch a sorc because they'll kill their mag pool and a sorc rotating between mist and streak will manage their mag a lot better.

Running both streak and mist form on sorc

I ran both for a while when mist form was first released and while the added mobility was nice (and fun), I couldn't deal any damage (I was even running a masters DW hybrid sorc to save on bar space, specifically to slot mist form and try out the "double streak", but it wasn't enough).
I tried several iterations
- frags proc as only burst skill (not enough damage and very unreliable since you rely on both an RNG proc + an RNG crit to deal any significant damage and the reduced proc chance was really severe, I still think it was bugged and much lower than the tooltip described).
- removed camo hunter for curse (not enough burst due to lower crit, my healing also greatly suffered because crit surge proc'd once every 4-5 seconds instead of once every 2-3).
- I lost utility and/or mandatory buffs from removing my shield or hurricane/lightning form making the class far too squishy.

Invis comparisons with NB to mist forms comparisons to sorc.

For the comparison of vampire passive invis to NB invis, the difference between that passive to NB invis and mist form to streak, is the 6/3 second ramp up time on the vampire passive.
NB invis will always be much better than the passive since you don't need what is essentially a 3 second cast time to activate it where as the vampire passive has what is essentially a 3 second cast time on it before it becomes active.

Meanwhile mistform is instant cast the same as BoL/streak with its difference being a 1 second travel time (with the advantage of being able to climb some vertical gaps and having greater precision with distance and where you land over streak/BoL) instead of a nearly instant travel time.

Deciding which class to play currently

If you want a high skill class with high damage and good survivability, go NB, anything else, go DK or warden (frost DK without corrosive).
It remains to be seen if the changes to PotL this upcoming patch will help plar (some plar mains are happy with it, some aren't, but it seems like it will bring them back from just being a beam bot in zergs at least).
As for sorc, throw on a generic proc stacking build and watch as DK/NB/warden does the same thing but better.
For cro, you have my condolences, probably have to take the same path as sorc for now with stacking DoT procs and out of class abilities with blast bones, slotting mist form and essentially playing an inferior DK/NB/warden.
Finally arcanist, I haven't had too much time to play around with it since the latest changes, but it seems like you can just slot mist form and run deadly + masters DW and basically become a sorc with better utility.

Like @StaticWave has said in this thread (and myself and multiple other sorc mains have said countless times in the past over numerous threads), the free movement speed given to other classes via generic skills, CP, traits, and passives/secondary effects, has been a huge issue for sorcs, especially in PvP where mobility was sorcerers niche over the other classes and the reason to deny the class a proper heal that had no downside. The change to mist form is the straw that broke the camels back for sorcerer in PvP and as a class with any unique identity overall.

(As well as NBs getting an actual good burst heal which showed that it is very possible for a glass cannon class that takes skill to use effectively to be given very high mobility, mitigation, damage and healing all at once).

Thanks @Turtle_Bot, you've said everything I wanted to say in a clearer and better worded way.

Stamsorc needs to slot 3 proc sets to do what a DK can innately do through class skills. Stamsorc needs to wear Mara's Balm just to have a decent burst heal when those 3 classes innately have it. Wanna stack into crit damage? Too bad, you won't ever have the same crit chance as a NB or a skill that can guarantee 100% crit rate like Cloak (Did I mention Cloak also procs the 300 wd/sd vamp passive?). Oh, you won't have 100% pen from Corrosive either, so good luck trying to balance your stats around wd, pen, crit rate, and crit dmg lol.

If you try slotting a stat build on a stamsorc, don't even. Those 3 classes can perform better in the exact same build. I've done a more in depth break down over this in another thread. Oh if you ever tried to build for max HP to take advantage of Blood Magic heal scaling? Don't either. Those 3 classes can do it better because it's extremely easy to have 45k HP and 7k WD, thereby retaining the same tooltip damage as a regular damage build while having a super high HP pool. Don't just take my word for it, go on ESO Editor and test it out for yourself.

There is literally no reason to play any iteration of sorc in this meta when Warden, DK, and NB exist. I've been hearing about how mDW/Vate Staff/Maarselok proc stamsorc is doing well. Guess what? That build is a 2 year old build. I've used it since Vate Staff first came out lol. It only resurfaced because of Mara's Balm, and Mara's Balm solved the only issue that stamsorc has, and that's not having a burst heal lol. So when that set gets nerfed these sorcs will disappear again to play another class. It's been like that forever and will continue to be like that unless this class gets properly adjusted to the current meta.

Skoomah

The old mist form was way better. It incorporated itself into combos and gameplay much more smoothly.

Staticewave, what are you proposing ZOS does to the current mistform?

StaticWave

Skoomah wrote: »

The old mist form was way better. It incorporated itself into combos and gameplay much more smoothly.

Staticewave, what are you proposing ZOS does to the current mistform?

As I’ve said in the OP, revert it to the previous version.

Skoomah

StaticWave wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The old mist form was way better. It incorporated itself into combos and gameplay much more smoothly.

Staticewave, what are you proposing ZOS does to the current mistform?

As I’ve said in the OP, revert it to the previous version.

The old mistform was a much more effective method of damage mitigation. It didn’t force you to go in straight lines but instead you could zig zag in between enemies and teammates alike to be super hard to hit. Plus, people could abuse it to make mist form nearly zero cost to cast, so you can outlast the opponents trying to kill you. You could live long enough so your teammates could come back to you to help you out. These benefits were used by all experienced healers to be almost unkillable.

Bushido2513

@StaticWave

First of all I agree with you for several reasons you and others listed in this thread. I am looking in amazement at the things people are saying in disbelief of what you've been saying and that's just facepalm worthy by itself, so sorry you have to defend against these things.


That being said yeah this game is pretty much erasing identity all over the place. I've played this game for years and while they have improved some things for sure, I think they went overboard in trying to innovate.

So I think about my time playing magic the gathering where there were the five colors who each had their identity and what happened when Wizards starting giving other colors the abilities of other colors. It didn't exactly ruin the game because there were so many ways to build an effective deck while retaining an effective color appropriate theme and Wizards would actually ban or restrict cards that started to show up in too many decks.


I give this example to compare to what's happening here in ESO. They've mixed and matched so much without quality control that now classes can just be pretty much copies of classes with sometimes barely noticeable levels of dissimilarities. They keep giving us more options but creating a game where there are simply less good choices which makes most everyone flock to very similar builds and choices.

This on its own isn't a great situation and then you have sorc which has just been left over time without enough meaningful buffs to keep it relevant.


I should say that for the record sorc identity is different for everyone. For me it used to be the hit and run class that required more skill to use and win on because you could hit hard but needed to know how to evade and deal with sub par healing.

This playstyle still applies but has just been greatly minimized by newer sets, increased mobility for all classes, stronger heals for all classes, the proc sets you pretty much have to wear to be relevant, etc.




I'll still play sorc because I still enjoy the class more than I enjoy other classes but when I compare this history I'd have to say the current gameplay experience doesn't measure up to some of the cooler parts of what it used to be. Again I'm speaking of the game as a whole and sorc class identity, not just of the class identity.

Jamie_Aubrey

As long as they cna no longer run round towers in Mist they can take Sorcs Streak any day of the week

Bushido2513

Jamie_Aubrey wrote: »

As long as they cna no longer run round towers in Mist they can take Sorcs Streak any day of the week

As a former mist tank I can say that to some degree it was over tuned and in need of a revamp however just taking pieces of a few skills and putting them into a blender and giving them some flavor text for explanation probably wasn't the best solution.

Thematically both sorcerers and vampires have had access to flash step so I can't argue with the premise. The problem is that in this game there isn't enough uniqueness to support all classes being vampires and having access to this.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The old mist form was way better. It incorporated itself into combos and gameplay much more smoothly.

Staticewave, what are you proposing ZOS does to the current mistform?

As I’ve said in the OP, revert it to the previous version.

@StaticWave

Now that I've thought about it some reverting would probably be a bad idea. I say that to say that if they are going to take the time to do anything, they should actually review and update the skill.

As I said in previous post, in normal lore it would be accepted that both sorcs and vampires would have access to flashstep even if sorcerers should be faster at it. That being said it's no fun here because it cuts down on already low diversity.

I say all that to say that I think we'd do better to either revert but adjust the mitigation / cost or keep it as is and just adjust the cost.

So if we revert I'd want to see a higher cost or less mitigation because yes I want vamps to use this to escape or move around the battlefield but as it stood it just gave too much of this ability for the cost, especially combined with other mitigation or movement speed buffs.

Now on the other hand I could see keeping it as is but it needs more of a cost or cost mechanic. In the way that a sorc isn't gandolf, nor should vampires be dracula. I say that to say that the player shouldn't be able to mist or flash step with such high mitigation at such a low cost as if they were a master of all vampires.

These are ideas on how I would try to properly adjust mistform to still have uniqueness but not collide so much with sorc.

That being said, movement speed needs some changes. At this point it's too easy for everyone to hit the movement speed cap while still having high damage and mitigation stats.

Weckless

When i first saw the mist change i thought it would pretty fun being able to have an escape tool similiar to streak. Then I realized that whenever you give a tool like that to everyone, it becomes useless to the people using it as intended and only useful for the ones chasing that guy down with their zerg using it to prevent him from having any breathing room. Also those saying mobility isn't sorc identity must be new. I remember my first pvp class tier list I watched years ago by kristofer specifically called sorc "the fastest class in cyrodiil" and stam sorcs could literally run in and combo you and if you survived they could dip out and reset the fight and play a true hit and run playstyle with no hope of keeping up with them

Bushido2513

Weckless wrote: »

When i first saw the mist change i thought it would pretty fun being able to have an escape tool similiar to streak. Then I realized that whenever you give a tool like that to everyone, it becomes useless to the people using it as intended and only useful for the ones chasing that guy down with their zerg using it to prevent him from having any breathing room.

Might also help if being a vampire had enough reasonable drawbacks to go with the buffs. People should feel the same way about playing vampires as lycanthrope rage feels about playing ww in that whether the build is great or sub par you at least get the thematic fantasy option.

Vampire should be more subclass than skill line and have it's own identity which would probably end up in not having this situation we have with mist form.