New Mist Form and easy access to movement speed killed Sorc identity

StaticWave

Sorc's identity has always been the ability to enter or leave a fight at will with Streak/Ball of Lightning and have a fast movement speed. That identity is now gone when every class can slot Mist Form if they want to or stack movement speed with little investment. This does not help that Sorc is also the only class whose healing is not yet updated with the recent meta. Why play sorc when other classes have better healing and can also copy Sorc's identity?

If ZOS's Dev team is not willing to give Sorc a reliable source of healing, then I want Mist Form change reverted and movement speed sources harder to get.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Streak and Speed has never been the Sorcerer's identity, not sure if your aware of this but the Nightblade and the Arcanist Class are MUCH faster, if anything the Sorcerer's identity is being the Pet Class and how is Mist Form effecting Streak? the ability requires you to select a location like liquid lightning, other then also being a teleport it functions nothing alike.

StaticWave

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Streak has never been the Sorcerer's identity, if anything it is the identity of being the Pet Class and how is Mist Form effecting Streak? the ability requires you to select a location like liquid lightning.

NBs, Necro, and Warden all have pets. That's why Necropotence set works on those classes.

Streak is the true identity of Sorc because up until now, no class has been able to replicate the ability of Streak.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

StaticWave wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Streak has never been the Sorcerer's identity, if anything it is the identity of being the Pet Class and how is Mist Form effecting Streak? the ability requires you to select a location like liquid lightning.

NBs, Necro, and Warden all have pets. That's why Necropotence set works on those classes.

Streak is the true identity of Sorc because up until now, no class has been able to replicate the ability of Streak.

Other then the Warden Bear the Sorcerer is the only other one with permanent Pets, the Necromancer does not have permanent pets and you are aware Mist Form does not stun the enemy? it also requires you to place a marker to teleport to (Not to mention requiring you to be a Vampire and taking on all their weaknesses) Streak does not require that.

If it is just the teleportation which is the problem then I have some bad news, it's called Apocryphal Gate.

StaticWave

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Streak and Speed has never been the Sorcerer's identity, not sure if your aware of this but the Nightblade and the Arcanist Class are MUCH faster, if anything the Sorcerer's identity is being the Pet Class and how is Mist Form effecting Streak? the ability requires you to select a location like liquid lightning, other then also being a teleport it functions nothing alike.

Mist Form gives 300 wd/sd, Major Evasion and Expedition for 4s, and absorbs projectiles whilst in motion. Ball of Lighting gives 2% wd/sd, absorbs a projectile per second every 3s, and removes snares+root and gives immunity to them for 2s

The only advantage Ball of Lighting has over Mist Form is the faster animation, which is preferred on a class like Sorc who does not have enough self-heal. On other classes with better self-heals, Mist Form is 100% preferred.

So why is Mist Form affecting Streak/Ball Of Lightning? It essentially gives other classes the tool to access locations that would normally be inaccessible by a regular class. If you know the tricks of Streak/Ball of Lighting, you would know that this ability allows you to jump on ledges that no class can get on, change direction mid Streak, so on and so forth. Mist Form allows you to do exactly the same. It removes the only advantage Sorc has over other classes.

StaticWave

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Streak and Speed has never been the Sorcerer's identity, not sure if your aware of this but the Nightblade and the Arcanist Class are MUCH faster, if anything the Sorcerer's identity is being the Pet Class and how is Mist Form effecting Streak? the ability requires you to select a location like liquid lightning, other then also being a teleport it functions nothing alike.

I'm not sure if you're speaking from a PvE perspective, but speed WAS stamsorc's identity in PvP. Minor Expedition was only accessible by Stamsorc. The only other way you could get it was slotting Gryphon's Ferocity, which takes up an entire 5-piece set.

Now NB has Minor Expedition on an overloaded spammable. Every class can run 3x Swift in Medium Armor and reach the speed cap like a Sorc.

Sorc's identity was Streak and Speed because that's how it survived damage in PvP. You had to be super mobile to avoid taking hits because your healing is not as good as other classes. That is no longer the case when other classes can run as fast as you and now also have access to a similar ability to Streak/Ball of Lighting.

StaticWave

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Streak has never been the Sorcerer's identity, if anything it is the identity of being the Pet Class and how is Mist Form effecting Streak? the ability requires you to select a location like liquid lightning.

NBs, Necro, and Warden all have pets. That's why Necropotence set works on those classes.

Streak is the true identity of Sorc because up until now, no class has been able to replicate the ability of Streak.

Other then the Warden Bear the Sorcerer is the only other one with permanent Pets, the Necromancer does not have permanent pets and you are aware Mist Form does not stun the enemy? it also requires you to place a marker to teleport to (Not to mention requiring you to be a Vampire and taking on all their weaknesses) Streak does not require that.

If it is just the teleportation which is the problem then I have some bad news, it's called Apocryphal Gate.

Nobody runs pets in PvP man.. You're probably talking about PvE, but PvP sorc is really lacking behind in survivability. You probably don't even slot Streak in PvE lol.

Everybody is a vampire in PvP because of Undeath Passive giving 30% damage mitigation. If you aren't a vampire you are asking to lose a PvP fight.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Im pretty sure the Sorcerer's ability to survive in PvP was stacking shields.

Also so what if the Vampire can do something similar, so can the Arcanist Class.

StaticWave

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Im pretty sure the Sorcerer's ability to survive in PvP was stacking shields.

Stamsorc doesn't stack shields, and shields are still lackluster compared to a true burst heal. You need shield + Streak to kite effectively. I'm sure many magsorc mains like @Turtle_Bot can confirm this.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Again no comment regarding the fact the Arcanists have something better?

I will be honest but this is just starting to sound like a nerf vampires thread.

Tommy_The_Gun

StaticWave wrote: »

Streak is the true identity of Sorc because up until now, no class has been able to replicate the ability of Streak.

It is kinda similar issue when they added sprint invisibility passive to Vampire. By doing so they added on-demand invisibility available for every class. Previously it was a NB exclusive thing and only way for other classes was to use invisibility potions.

WoppaBoem

I agree is the so many things that once where only accessibly on a class that via general skill lines give access to all classes. It sucks, for one thing Sorc looks much cooler doing it and it will be forever the identity when you almost kill a sorcs it will streak away

Lucifer9th

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Streak is the true identity of Sorc because up until now, no class has been able to replicate the ability of Streak.

It is kinda similar issue when they added sprint invisibility passive to Vampire. By doing so they added on-demand invisibility available for every class. Previously it was a NB exclusive thing and only way for other classes was to use invisibility potions.

yes, but need to run vampire stage 4 in a cyrodill full of dragon knight, and it's not really on demand, need to sprint 3 seconds
in comparaison, Mist form is a cheaper ball of lightening with better additionnal effects, just a bit slower

StaticWave

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Again no comment regarding the fact the Arcanists have something better?

I will be honest but this is just starting to sound like a nerf vampires thread.

Yea, vampire needs to be nerfed lol.

Arcanist has its own issues, and that is for another thread.

StaticWave

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Streak and Speed has never been the Sorcerer's identity, not sure if your aware of this but the Nightblade and the Arcanist Class are MUCH faster, if anything the Sorcerer's identity is being the Pet Class and how is Mist Form effecting Streak? the ability requires you to select a location like liquid lightning, other then also being a teleport it functions nothing alike.

Also I’m not sure if you’re aware, but NB is only faster AFTER receiving movement speed buffs as well as the game giving free movement speed to everyone. Arcanist is a new class and new classes will always be OP until nerfed.

Hence why I titled this thread “Easy access to movement speed killed Sorc identity”. Sorc used to be the fastest class in PvP due to the facts that it had exclusive access to Minor Expedition, Swift and Wild Hunt didn’t exist, and Medium Armor didn’t give 10% movement speed when CC immune.

The game evolved, but Sorc is still stuck in the past with no reliable self heals. Don’t even tell me to slot a pet because you know dang well it’s a throw to slot any pet on a PvP build lol.

Tessitura

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Again no comment regarding the fact the Arcanists have something better?

I will be honest but this is just starting to sound like a nerf vampires thread.

I don't really have much of a dog in this fight but I did want to say that arcanist teleport is not better, its very limited and does not work has advertised. You can't place it on inclines and you often cant place it at all.

I do think vamp passives need a bit of a nerf though. Undeath is a bit too strong. Mistform is fine, but Undeath has made vamps way too common place. It either needs a nerf or to be changed.

OBJnoob

Between streak, shields, pets, and just kinda cool animations-- I don't think the sorc identity has been lost. I can see that some of their iconic abilities have been duplicated and given to others, but I don't think they are alone in this.

So honestly, if anyone agrees with me on that, maybe we can divert this topic just a bit. And basically not hate on mist form and perhaps just talk about generic movement speed instead. Meaning the "on foot" speed.

Because I do feel it has gotten out of hand. Access to major/minor expedition... Swift jewelry... Snare removal and immunity... It's all a bit much. And it isn't even that this class can do it and they shouldn't be able to... It's just more like it's become so mandatory that you can't even construct a functional build without it. Because you won't be able to catch ANYbody.

Mist form can stay how it is, in my opinion. It was lame before-- maybe it's lame now too-- whatever.

I wouldn't mind seeing major expedition removed from Race Against Time. I find this to be the main culprit. And perhaps nerf Swift jewelry.

Everybody would slow down a bit and there would be a discrepancy between those that still found barspace to make it happen and those that, now, have different ability choices.

DrNukenstein

I always thought Sorc identity was hitting you with crystal weapon, power overload and execute of choice all in the same gcd. That's still some really powerful stuff that only sorcs can do.

Sotha_Sil

Have you tried new mist form ? Because it's really weak compared to streak. You have to point where you go, and it doesn't stun anyone.

StaticWave

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

Have you tried new mist form ? Because it's really weak compared to streak. You have to point where you go, and it doesn't stun anyone.

I have, and I’ve said I would not choose it over Streak on Sorc, but I’ve also said I would definitely slot it on another class because of Major Evasion + Expedition + 300 wd.

StaticWave

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I always thought Sorc identity was hitting you with crystal weapon, power overload and execute of choice all in the same gcd. That's still some really powerful stuff that only sorcs can do.

Most classes have a form of delayed burst that can be comboed though, so I wouldn’t say it’s a sorc only thing. Streak definitely was a sorc only thing.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

Between streak, shields, pets, and just kinda cool animations-- I don't think the sorc identity has been lost. I can see that some of their iconic abilities have been duplicated and given to others, but I don't think they are alone in this.

So honestly, if anyone agrees with me on that, maybe we can divert this topic just a bit. And basically not hate on mist form and perhaps just talk about generic movement speed instead. Meaning the "on foot" speed.

Because I do feel it has gotten out of hand. Access to major/minor expedition... Swift jewelry... Snare removal and immunity... It's all a bit much. And it isn't even that this class can do it and they shouldn't be able to... It's just more like it's become so mandatory that you can't even construct a functional build without it. Because you won't be able to catch ANYbody.

Mist form can stay how it is, in my opinion. It was lame before-- maybe it's lame now too-- whatever.

I wouldn't mind seeing major expedition removed from Race Against Time. I find this to be the main culprit. And perhaps nerf Swift jewelry.

Everybody would slow down a bit and there would be a discrepancy between those that still found barspace to make it happen and those that, now, have different ability choices.

8 hours ago I played a Capture the Flag BG game mode in Deeping Drome map. There was a DK in the other team who used a full proc build with Elusive Mist Form. We all know how powerful DKs are just with stat builds. A proc DK? No explanation needed here.

So what happened was that DK and his Purple team was fighting Red team at their flag, I was in the middle of the map watching the fight happening. There's a large gap between the center platform of the map and the platform connecting to Red team's flag. You can see what I mean in this screenshot below:



The only way for you to clear this gap is by using Streak. You cannot jump over it, even with enough momentum and bunny hopping. As I saw the fight, I decided to flank the Purple team from behind by Streaking through that gap and blasting my ranged skills at them, sort of sandwiching them between me and the Red team.

Unfortunately Red team consisted of mostly PvE players and were wiped out pretty quick. Purple ignored the flag, turned around, and went straight for me. I was confident that I could escape because i had Streak and I could just use it to clear the gap, forcing them to take the long way to get to the center. I was also far enough that they wouldn't be able to reach me with their gap closers.

As I was retreating, I took heavy ranged damage and barely made it out alive with low resources when I crossed the gap, but you know what happened next? The DK with Mist Form used it to clear the gap, sprinted towards me with Major Expedition and Fossilized me.

At that point, I thought to myself: "Why is this even a thing?". How is an overperforming class with Corrosive, a strong burst heal and defensive capabilites, also given a BoL copycat ability? Why do I even play Sorc when I can just hop on a DK, slot Mist Form, and be tanky and mobile at the same time?

That is why I made this thread. You don't really think about it until you run into a situation where your class identity is being used against you.

CameraBeardThePirate

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Between streak, shields, pets, and just kinda cool animations-- I don't think the sorc identity has been lost. I can see that some of their iconic abilities have been duplicated and given to others, but I don't think they are alone in this.

So honestly, if anyone agrees with me on that, maybe we can divert this topic just a bit. And basically not hate on mist form and perhaps just talk about generic movement speed instead. Meaning the "on foot" speed.

Because I do feel it has gotten out of hand. Access to major/minor expedition... Swift jewelry... Snare removal and immunity... It's all a bit much. And it isn't even that this class can do it and they shouldn't be able to... It's just more like it's become so mandatory that you can't even construct a functional build without it. Because you won't be able to catch ANYbody.

Mist form can stay how it is, in my opinion. It was lame before-- maybe it's lame now too-- whatever.

I wouldn't mind seeing major expedition removed from Race Against Time. I find this to be the main culprit. And perhaps nerf Swift jewelry.

Everybody would slow down a bit and there would be a discrepancy between those that still found barspace to make it happen and those that, now, have different ability choices.

The only way for you to clear this gap is by using Streak. You cannot jump over it, even with enough momentum and bunny hopping. As I saw the fight, I decided to flank the Purple team from behind by Streaking through that gap and blasting my ranged skills at them, sort of sandwiching them between me and the Red team.

This is actually wrong though - I jump that gap all the time on a Necro; you just need to speed hop with sufficient movement speed (5 or 6 medium and Major Expedition is already enough)

Also, have you actually tried Mist Form? It's nowhere near as good as Streak or Ball Lightning. It's clunkier, slower, doesn't stun or deal damage, and cannot proc any of the "Gap Close" proc conditions.

On top of that, your choices for running Mist are either Vamp 3 or 4 (and having a low Mist cost but high cost for everything else) or running Vamp 1 and having an egregious Mist cost. Sure it might have the 300 weapon damage passive, but it's only up for 6 seconds on cast and comes with all of the downsides of being a vampire.

Mist has its benefits, but it really sucks as an escape tool. It's average for a mobility tool, and honestly I'd rather have the more robust Race Against Time in 9/10 scenarios. Streak remains the king of mobility abilities.

StaticWave

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Between streak, shields, pets, and just kinda cool animations-- I don't think the sorc identity has been lost. I can see that some of their iconic abilities have been duplicated and given to others, but I don't think they are alone in this.

So honestly, if anyone agrees with me on that, maybe we can divert this topic just a bit. And basically not hate on mist form and perhaps just talk about generic movement speed instead. Meaning the "on foot" speed.

Because I do feel it has gotten out of hand. Access to major/minor expedition... Swift jewelry... Snare removal and immunity... It's all a bit much. And it isn't even that this class can do it and they shouldn't be able to... It's just more like it's become so mandatory that you can't even construct a functional build without it. Because you won't be able to catch ANYbody.

Mist form can stay how it is, in my opinion. It was lame before-- maybe it's lame now too-- whatever.

I wouldn't mind seeing major expedition removed from Race Against Time. I find this to be the main culprit. And perhaps nerf Swift jewelry.

Everybody would slow down a bit and there would be a discrepancy between those that still found barspace to make it happen and those that, now, have different ability choices.

The only way for you to clear this gap is by using Streak. You cannot jump over it, even with enough momentum and bunny hopping. As I saw the fight, I decided to flank the Purple team from behind by Streaking through that gap and blasting my ranged skills at them, sort of sandwiching them between me and the Red team.

This is actually wrong though - I jump that gap all the time on a Necro; you just need to speed hop with sufficient movement speed (5 or 6 medium and Major Expedition is already enough)

Also, have you actually tried Mist Form? It's nowhere near as good as Streak or Ball Lightning. It's clunkier, slower, doesn't stun or deal damage, and cannot proc any of the "Gap Close" proc conditions.

On top of that, your choices for running Mist are either Vamp 3 or 4 (and having a low Mist cost but high cost for everything else) or running Vamp 1 and having an egregious Mist cost. Sure it might have the 300 weapon damage passive, but it's only up for 6 seconds on cast and comes with all of the downsides of being a vampire.

Mist has its benefits, but it really sucks as an escape tool. It's average for a mobility tool, and honestly I'd rather have the more robust Race Against Time in 9/10 scenarios. Streak remains the king of mobility abilities.

That was an example as I couldn’t find the exact gap I Streak over. I cleared a bigger gap that only Streak can get you through, and yes I have cleared other gaps in that map with just jumping, but it requires perfect timing and even a slight snare will prevent you from doing so.

I have tried Mist Form, that is why I said I wouldn’t pick it over Streak on Sorc, but on other classes you can.

Mist Form is still better than BoL if we are not considering just the animation time. It provides far better buffs than BoL.

There is really no downside to being a Vamp because of Undeath. Most people in PvP are Vampires just for that passive. Even against a DK, Undeath will provide more mitigation when you’ve reach a certain HP threshold.

AndreNoir

StaticWave wrote: »

Mist Form gives 300 wd/sd

It doesn't. Vamp stage 2+ does. So be honest and mention that 300 w/sd comes with minimum +8% flame damage, +5% regular ability costs and -30% health recovery.
And streak comes with "just" +2% to s/wd and the most overpowered stun in the game on top of damage and mobility

StaticWave

AndreNoir wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Mist Form gives 300 wd/sd

It doesn't. Vamp stage 2+ does. So be honest and mention that 300 w/sd comes with minimum +8% flame damage, +5% regular ability costs and -30% health recovery.
And streak comes with "just" +2% to s/wd and the most overpowered stun in the game on top of damage and mobility

And that passive procs when you use Mist Form. Similar to how a Lightning passive gives 2% Wd/sd when slotting a class ability. If you compare that 2% wd passive to 300 wd vamp passive, the vamp passive will still win by a mile. It would require you to have 15k wd just for that 2% passive to be equivalent to 300 wd from vamp passive lol

Vampire Undeath gives 30% mitigation starting from 100% HP. At 50% HP you are taking 15% less dmg, which is more than enough to offset 13% extra flame dmg taken. That is why almost every competitive PvP build is a Vamp stage 3.

So please tell me again where exactly was I being dishonest?

Sustain is a joke in PvP, and HP recovery is a dead stat.

Streak is not the most overpowered stun in the game lol.

DrNukenstein

StaticWave wrote: »

Most classes have a form of delayed burst that can be comboed though, so I wouldn’t say it’s a sorc only thing. Streak definitely was a sorc only thing.

mmmmm nightblade doesn't have delayed burst, dk delayed burst is kind of lacking, templars are in no delayed burst allowed time out, Arcanist doesn't look to have any off-gcd delayed burst. Blast Bones isn't as easy to command as say a ranged light attack that does as much damage as a spammable, and warden the next runner up is limited by a several second delay and and being PB-AOE.

There' delayed burst and then there's being able to throw a "20k damage-with execute potential-3 pointer" down town every other second. Sorcs are absolutely the uncontested kings/queens of doing that, in fact it's arguable they're the only class that can do that.

acastanza_ESO

I was saying exactly this when the mistform change was announced and people said I was overreacting.

To address the increasing mobility of other classes, and considering that Nightblade was recently given passive Minor Expedition just from having a skill slotted, Lightning Form and morphs should be reworked to give this passively as well on the base skill and morphs. Major Expedition should be moved to the activation effect with duration and damage differing as well as possibly a secondary effect like a snare removal on one.

StaticWave

DrNukenstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Most classes have a form of delayed burst that can be comboed though, so I wouldn’t say it’s a sorc only thing. Streak definitely was a sorc only thing.

mmmmm nightblade doesn't have delayed burst, dk delayed burst is kind of lacking, templars are in no delayed burst allowed time out, Arcanist doesn't look to have any off-gcd delayed burst. Blast Bones isn't as easy to command as say a ranged light attack that does as much damage as a spammable, and warden the next runner up is limited by a several second delay and and being PB-AOE.

There' delayed burst and then there's being able to throw a "20k damage-with execute potential-3 pointer" down town every other second. Sorcs are absolutely the uncontested kings/queens of doing that, in fact it's arguable they're the only class that can do that.

Nb doesn’t really need a delayed burst when Spectral Bow can crit for about the same damage as Curse + Frag combined.

Templar’s delayed burst got gutted but next patch it will be better.

Arcanist doesn’t seem to have one, hence why I said most classes.

Warden definitely has a delayed burst with Shalks.

Necro is similar to Warden with Blastbones, although the AI needs some work.

DK’s delayed burst is Whip+ FoO as most people build a 3-stack Whip to combine with FoO.

Sorc’s burst is great, but let’s not exaggerate its effectiveness. Its burst is as easily avoided as Spectral Bow. That’s why Sorc generally struggles vs classes that can roll a lot, such as NBs and roller builds.

DrNukenstein

yeah, but the difference is that burst only takes 1 second of setup and can be delivered from range. 2 seconds if you want to use curse to make it a 30k damage 3 pointer. I've eaten some nasty shalks/bones+dawnbreaker combos but that's not in league with what sorcs can do... from relative safety... every other second.

acastanza_ESO

DrNukenstein wrote: »

yeah, but the difference is that burst only takes 1 second of setup and can be delivered from range. 2 seconds if you want to use curse to make it a 30k damage 3 pointer. I've eaten some nasty shalks/bones+dawnbreaker combos but that's not in league with what sorcs can do... from relative safety... every other second.

Every piece of sorc's burst can be blocked, dodged, cleansed, and heck, even outrun. If you die to a Sorc burst alone, I'm sorry but that's a player issue.