Templar setbacks in PvP

OnGodiDoDis

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't get why mages wrath wouldn't be used. It literally steels kills from ROwith ease because if the 1.8 second channel time assuming you are in group play. Yes, RO is strong but it gets outweighed by the ability to preload and supplement the burst and AOE of mages wrath. Now, once templar starts having their delayed burst amount to anything again; it's usefulness goes back up

Just want to provide some clarification as to why mages wrath is not used (from a sorc main perspective).

1. Bar space.

- This is the number 1 issue with this skill (and sorc in general). Sorcs just don't have the bar space to slot this ability without giving up something better. This is especially true because the sorcs burst combo requires lining up 4 skills already (frags/curse/overload/crushing shock or bound armaments/overload/crystal weapon/curse) and adding mages wrath is a 5th skill/GCD and if pre-cast before the combo, the 4s debuff wears off before the combo lands meaning it is a waste of resources to use it.

2. It's cleansable.

- Same issue as curse, but curse has many more upsides than wrath, most notably it can do its damage at any % of health instead of only below 20%. With sets like Mara's Balm and classes like Warden being in the meta, it's very hard (if not near impossible) to keep the mages wrath debuff on the target to proc it with how freely available cleanse is currently.

3. Far too many bugs and counters to make it viable.

- There's far too many ways to counter this skill.
- It can be dodged (for some reason, which is strange considering its supposed to be a sticky debuff execute).
- It can be blocked (block mitigation is far too high currently with how cheap and easy it is to sustain it).
- Sometimes it just completely fails to proc for no reason at all.
- The threshold to proc it is far too low, someone at 20% health is basically already dead, mages fury just steals the killing blow from the other player that was already going to get the final hit.

5. It's damage just isn't worth it

- It's damage is less than a frags proc (which like curse can deal its damage at any health %, not just below 20%).
- It's damage doesn't scale at all, so even if it does proc, sometimes it can still fail to get the kill (mostly due to undeath passive).

6. Dodge roll is too cheap

- Sorcs burst combo is very predictable and easy to avoid. When you hear/see curse being cast on you (it has a distinct sound and visual), count to 2 then hit dodge roll, this mitigates the majority of a sorcs combo (frags/overload/crushing shock/bound armaments) outside of curse, so unless you were already close to or below 20% health where casting mages wrath only would have proc'd it, the burst combo to get you into mages wrath proc range won't land and won't proc mages wrath.

You'll see people in large groups using it since the group covers utility/defense/burst/pressure, you'll also see it very commonly in low mmr BGs, since most players there don't know what they're doing, don't heal out of its range, don't dodge to avoid sorcs damage that drops them into that range, don't block to mitigate its damage, generally have much squishier builds, etc, so it becomes a very strong finisher in those situations.
But outside of those situations, it just doesn't do anything that a frags/curse proc doesn't already do better, it also makes the burst combo very clunky to use thanks to its awkward (short) timer that prevents it from being precast like an actual debuff, the current meta (mara's + warden and probably soon plar again too with the temp fix to PotL) is just not conducive for it to be a functional skill and it has too many bugs/issues/counter play that make it not worth the huge investment of a valuable bar slot that sorcerer just does not have available for it.

Hope this helps explain why mages wrath is not being used at the higher levels of play (for PvP at least).

Agreed. It seems like the classes that are struggling the most right now (Sorc, Templar) share similar aspects: they both have purgeable effects. Essential effects that are needed to get a kill, mind you. But that raises the question; why isn't DK struggling? Their offensive toolkit consists of DoTs. The answer is that their spammable is reliable and gets the job done. Sorcs and Templars don't have good spammables. Sorc doesn't even have a class spammable. Templar lost its seat in the top tier classes when Jabs was gutted. They can buff all its other skills as much as they want, but the class will remain trash unless Jabs gets a buff. The top classes right now don't even need an execute.

It's not that sorc don't need good spammable, if they would have one that would be better than non class options they would be using it. It's just since they don't have one they are usually looking for other options or they will stick with crystal weapons which is ok ability at best. Sorc never had a great class spammable and there were times when he was dominating playingfield.

Even with changed jabs templar was very strong spec not that long ago. In BGs You could nuke almost everyone out of the existance. It's just recently in update 36 when ZoS nerfed backlash dmg when templar noticed big drop of dmg effectiveness in solo play. Same as You don't always need execute on every spec to be a strong class You also don't need great class spammable to be one. Templar current kit is really not that far from being really good but I guess ZoS is hesitant to give templar strong burst option again due to the fact javelin and beam are now really strong and oppresive abilities that are almost brainlesly spammed in group PvP because of how efefctive they are.

As for DK it's not just about spammable. They had that spammable for years. What made DK strong is few things combined and many of them don't even come directly from DK specific buffs. First is the fact that now almost everyone is stage 3 vampire for undeath passive which is OP in PvP but it gives DK big dmg buff since noticable portion of his dmg is flame dmg. Than there is buffed charged trait which complements combustion passive. Than there is hybrydisation which allowed DK to create coherent toolkit and take more adventage of already mentioned combustion passive improvements. Than we have things like sea serpent coil mythic which allows DK to build more tankiness while still gettting enough dmg

All the top classes have an additional PvP-relevant effect on their spammables. NBs have increased damaged on both of its morphs of Concealed. DKs have increased damage on both of the Whip morphs. Wardens also have increased damage scaling and a DoT on its respective Cliff Racer morphs. Jabs has a snare. Snares are good on other skills that are designed for CC. A spammable is not the place to place a CC. Snares are obsolete. We already have a 40% snare on Living Dark. By the snare rules, only the highest snare is applied. We are nullifying the Jabs snare by using Living Dark. People need to take damage and they need to take a lot of it to die. A snare accomplishes none of that. Snare immunity is so widely available, and it is a requirement for anyone delving into PvP zones. The only place you don't need snare immunity is in duels because you're fighting face-to-face the entire time. I would like to see Jabs become a targetable ability like Flurry and its morphs. It can still do AoE damage but it would allow us to inflict the full amount of damage to our intended target.

OnGodiDoDis

Cast_El wrote: »

Good! people like you keep up the "fight". I let it go. They says they want templar to be weak. They don't listen and have their own agenda so what the point?
But again: congratulations for keeping that up

My threads have helped with the adjustment of several sets and classes, most notably the Caluurion's nerf, Warden buffs, and Occult Overload nerf. Also, more recently, the Mara's nerf and Dark Convergence and Plaguebreak adjustments.

Galeriano

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't get why mages wrath wouldn't be used. It literally steels kills from ROwith ease because if the 1.8 second channel time assuming you are in group play. Yes, RO is strong but it gets outweighed by the ability to preload and supplement the burst and AOE of mages wrath. Now, once templar starts having their delayed burst amount to anything again; it's usefulness goes back up

Just want to provide some clarification as to why mages wrath is not used (from a sorc main perspective).

1. Bar space.

- This is the number 1 issue with this skill (and sorc in general). Sorcs just don't have the bar space to slot this ability without giving up something better. This is especially true because the sorcs burst combo requires lining up 4 skills already (frags/curse/overload/crushing shock or bound armaments/overload/crystal weapon/curse) and adding mages wrath is a 5th skill/GCD and if pre-cast before the combo, the 4s debuff wears off before the combo lands meaning it is a waste of resources to use it.

2. It's cleansable.

- Same issue as curse, but curse has many more upsides than wrath, most notably it can do its damage at any % of health instead of only below 20%. With sets like Mara's Balm and classes like Warden being in the meta, it's very hard (if not near impossible) to keep the mages wrath debuff on the target to proc it with how freely available cleanse is currently.

3. Far too many bugs and counters to make it viable.

- There's far too many ways to counter this skill.
- It can be dodged (for some reason, which is strange considering its supposed to be a sticky debuff execute).
- It can be blocked (block mitigation is far too high currently with how cheap and easy it is to sustain it).
- Sometimes it just completely fails to proc for no reason at all.
- The threshold to proc it is far too low, someone at 20% health is basically already dead, mages fury just steals the killing blow from the other player that was already going to get the final hit.

5. It's damage just isn't worth it

- It's damage is less than a frags proc (which like curse can deal its damage at any health %, not just below 20%).
- It's damage doesn't scale at all, so even if it does proc, sometimes it can still fail to get the kill (mostly due to undeath passive).

6. Dodge roll is too cheap

- Sorcs burst combo is very predictable and easy to avoid. When you hear/see curse being cast on you (it has a distinct sound and visual), count to 2 then hit dodge roll, this mitigates the majority of a sorcs combo (frags/overload/crushing shock/bound armaments) outside of curse, so unless you were already close to or below 20% health where casting mages wrath only would have proc'd it, the burst combo to get you into mages wrath proc range won't land and won't proc mages wrath.

You'll see people in large groups using it since the group covers utility/defense/burst/pressure, you'll also see it very commonly in low mmr BGs, since most players there don't know what they're doing, don't heal out of its range, don't dodge to avoid sorcs damage that drops them into that range, don't block to mitigate its damage, generally have much squishier builds, etc, so it becomes a very strong finisher in those situations.
But outside of those situations, it just doesn't do anything that a frags/curse proc doesn't already do better, it also makes the burst combo very clunky to use thanks to its awkward (short) timer that prevents it from being precast like an actual debuff, the current meta (mara's + warden and probably soon plar again too with the temp fix to PotL) is just not conducive for it to be a functional skill and it has too many bugs/issues/counter play that make it not worth the huge investment of a valuable bar slot that sorcerer just does not have available for it.

Hope this helps explain why mages wrath is not being used at the higher levels of play (for PvP at least).

Agreed. It seems like the classes that are struggling the most right now (Sorc, Templar) share similar aspects: they both have purgeable effects. Essential effects that are needed to get a kill, mind you. But that raises the question; why isn't DK struggling? Their offensive toolkit consists of DoTs. The answer is that their spammable is reliable and gets the job done. Sorcs and Templars don't have good spammables. Sorc doesn't even have a class spammable. Templar lost its seat in the top tier classes when Jabs was gutted. They can buff all its other skills as much as they want, but the class will remain trash unless Jabs gets a buff. The top classes right now don't even need an execute.

It's not that sorc don't need good spammable, if they would have one that would be better than non class options they would be using it. It's just since they don't have one they are usually looking for other options or they will stick with crystal weapons which is ok ability at best. Sorc never had a great class spammable and there were times when he was dominating playingfield.

Even with changed jabs templar was very strong spec not that long ago. In BGs You could nuke almost everyone out of the existance. It's just recently in update 36 when ZoS nerfed backlash dmg when templar noticed big drop of dmg effectiveness in solo play. Same as You don't always need execute on every spec to be a strong class You also don't need great class spammable to be one. Templar current kit is really not that far from being really good but I guess ZoS is hesitant to give templar strong burst option again due to the fact javelin and beam are now really strong and oppresive abilities that are almost brainlesly spammed in group PvP because of how efefctive they are.

As for DK it's not just about spammable. They had that spammable for years. What made DK strong is few things combined and many of them don't even come directly from DK specific buffs. First is the fact that now almost everyone is stage 3 vampire for undeath passive which is OP in PvP but it gives DK big dmg buff since noticable portion of his dmg is flame dmg. Than there is buffed charged trait which complements combustion passive. Than there is hybrydisation which allowed DK to create coherent toolkit and take more adventage of already mentioned combustion passive improvements. Than we have things like sea serpent coil mythic which allows DK to build more tankiness while still gettting enough dmg

All the top classes have an additional PvP-relevant effect on their spammables. NBs have increased damaged on both of its morphs of Concealed. DKs have increased damage on both of the Whip morphs. Wardens also have increased damage scaling and a DoT on its respective Cliff Racer morphs. Jabs has a snare. Snares are good on other skills that are designed for CC. A spammable is not the place to place a CC. Snares are obsolete. We already have a 40% snare on Living Dark. By the snare rules, only the highest snare is applied. We are nullifying the Jabs snare by using Living Dark. People need to take damage and they need to take a lot of it to die. A snare accomplishes none of that. Snare immunity is so widely available, and it is a requirement for anyone delving into PvP zones. The only place you don't need snare immunity is in duels because you're fighting face-to-face the entire time. I would like to see Jabs become a targetable ability like Flurry and its morphs. It can still do AoE damage but it would allow us to inflict the full amount of damage to our intended target.

You are looking at things from a narrow point of view. Fact that nb and dk have right now decent secondary effects in their spammables doesn't mean it's a default rule for class to be good in PvP. Warden is pretty good example. He is not even using his spammable that often, many wardens preffer weapon spammables. When he was a top dog in PvP he was not using his spammables at all. Same goes for necro, during the era that class was dominating skulls were not used. There were times when magsorcs were a meta and they were not using class spammable so even class without a good class spammable can be good in PvP given right conditions. There was even a time when stam DK was strong in PvP and he was not using a class spammable. Right now many classes do really good job with master dual wield and rending slashes and that build will possibly gain more popularity in new patch after mara's balm nerf. Once again, having a strong class spammable is not a must have for a class to be good in PvP. Jabs and living dark flare snares are two different types of snares. One is used more offensively seconds is used more defensively. Jabs also have a bit of healing in one of the morphs and major sorcery/brutality You want so much plus bit more AoE dmg on the other morph. Templar was among top classes just one patch ago and jabs were the same back then as they are right now so it's more than enough proof that jabs do not need changes for templar to be good. Jabs requiring a target would be actually a nerf to the ability.

maxjapank

Galeriano wrote: »

So templars execute is basically undodgable 36 meters range execute that hits like a truck when compared to other execute abilities.

It sure better be undodgeable if it is a channel. But being a channel means you are susceptible to being bashed or interrupted. It's really hard to execute with it at all in melee range unless, you can stun your opponent (and that is mostly from javelin). It also doesn't really shine unless you are under 25% health anyways or much much less. And the damage is not instant. It takes a sec for it to start kicking in, which often allows players to get out of execute range.

I do really like Radiant Oppression. But before it was buffed, it was very rare to see a Templar using it in pvp. And to be fair, the main reason I use it, is because it's the only really ranged offensive skill we have that's decent, outside of javelin for a stun.

Galeriano

maxjapank wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

So templars execute is basically undodgable 36 meters range execute that hits like a truck when compared to other execute abilities.

It sure better be undodgeable if it is a channel. But being a channel means you are susceptible to being bashed or interrupted. It's really hard to execute with it at all in melee range unless, you can stun your opponent (and that is mostly from javelin). It also doesn't really shine unless you are under 25% health anyways or much much less. And the damage is not instant. It takes a sec for it to start kicking in, which often allows players to get out of execute range.

I do really like Radiant Oppression. But before it was buffed, it was very rare to see a Templar using it in pvp. And to be fair, the main reason I use it, is because it's the only really ranged offensive skill we have that's decent, outside of javelin for a stun.

Yes it is interruptable but properly used that is not an issue. You either use it from a distance or secure the use to get atleast 1-2 ticks by making sure You are either cc immune or stunning Your opponent preferably with javelin that will also throw him away from bash distance. It can be also extremly opressive ability when used from range by someone You are not engaged with and a doom to everyone who is built for evasivness with dodge rather than for a tankiness. Damage is almost instant. First tick happens 0,3 sec after clicking the ability, It have 0,75 sec intervals between each tick so You have 0,3 sec for first tick and 1,5 sec later last tick happens and ability ends which gives us final 1,8 sec chanell time and 3 ticks. 0,3 sec between click and actual application is faster than some of the instant cast executes. You just need to use it in right moment and with backllash nerf it's definietly harder to put enough burst to more tanky players to align burst and execute properly.

maxjapank

Galeriano wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

So templars execute is basically undodgable 36 meters range execute that hits like a truck when compared to other execute abilities.

It sure better be undodgeable if it is a channel. But being a channel means you are susceptible to being bashed or interrupted. It's really hard to execute with it at all in melee range unless, you can stun your opponent (and that is mostly from javelin). It also doesn't really shine unless you are under 25% health anyways or much much less. And the damage is not instant. It takes a sec for it to start kicking in, which often allows players to get out of execute range.

I do really like Radiant Oppression. But before it was buffed, it was very rare to see a Templar using it in pvp. And to be fair, the main reason I use it, is because it's the only really ranged offensive skill we have that's decent, outside of javelin for a stun.

Yes it is interruptable but properly used that is not an issue. You either use it from a distance or secure the use to get atleast 1-2 ticks by making sure You are either cc immune or stunning Your opponent preferably with javelin that will also throw him away from bash distance. It can be also extremly opressive ability when used from range by someone You are not engaged with and a doom to everyone who is built for evasivness with dodge rather than for a tankiness. Damage is almost instant. First tick happens 0,3 sec after clicking the ability, It have 0,75 sec intervals between each tick so You have 0,3 sec for first tick and 1,5 sec later last tick happens and ability ends which gives us final 1,8 sec chanell time and 3 ticks. 0,3 sec between click and actual application is faster than some of the instant cast executes. You just need to use it in right moment and with backllash nerf it's definietly harder to put enough burst to more tanky players to align burst and execute properly.

Damage is much less instant in pvp than what you've written. I often have to press the skill twice for it to go off and by the time it does do dmg, many players are already out of execute range. We also need to remember that there needs to be a counter to dodge rolly-polly players. Dodging removes all dmg for such players. But at least there is this skill to help counter it.

Galeriano

maxjapank wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

So templars execute is basically undodgable 36 meters range execute that hits like a truck when compared to other execute abilities.

It sure better be undodgeable if it is a channel. But being a channel means you are susceptible to being bashed or interrupted. It's really hard to execute with it at all in melee range unless, you can stun your opponent (and that is mostly from javelin). It also doesn't really shine unless you are under 25% health anyways or much much less. And the damage is not instant. It takes a sec for it to start kicking in, which often allows players to get out of execute range.

I do really like Radiant Oppression. But before it was buffed, it was very rare to see a Templar using it in pvp. And to be fair, the main reason I use it, is because it's the only really ranged offensive skill we have that's decent, outside of javelin for a stun.

Yes it is interruptable but properly used that is not an issue. You either use it from a distance or secure the use to get atleast 1-2 ticks by making sure You are either cc immune or stunning Your opponent preferably with javelin that will also throw him away from bash distance. It can be also extremly opressive ability when used from range by someone You are not engaged with and a doom to everyone who is built for evasivness with dodge rather than for a tankiness. Damage is almost instant. First tick happens 0,3 sec after clicking the ability, It have 0,75 sec intervals between each tick so You have 0,3 sec for first tick and 1,5 sec later last tick happens and ability ends which gives us final 1,8 sec chanell time and 3 ticks. 0,3 sec between click and actual application is faster than some of the instant cast executes. You just need to use it in right moment and with backllash nerf it's definietly harder to put enough burst to more tanky players to align burst and execute properly.

Damage is much less instant in pvp than what you've written. I often have to press the skill twice for it to go off and by the time it does do dmg, many players are already out of execute range. We also need to remember that there needs to be a counter to dodge rolly-polly players. Dodging removes all dmg for such players. But at least there is this skill to help counter it.

This have nothing to do with how ability works though. With poor game performance You need to click many abilities multiple times for game to register and templar beam is not any better or worse at this than any other ability. Fact that it's a range ability actually makes it better than meele because in laggy situations You atleast wont get constant pop ups saying "target out of range". Yes game needs counters to dodge nobody denies that and fact that this particular ability is among these counters adds to its strenghts especially that it's one of the strongest counters to dodge based defense.

OnGodiDoDis

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't get why mages wrath wouldn't be used. It literally steels kills from ROwith ease because if the 1.8 second channel time assuming you are in group play. Yes, RO is strong but it gets outweighed by the ability to preload and supplement the burst and AOE of mages wrath. Now, once templar starts having their delayed burst amount to anything again; it's usefulness goes back up

Just want to provide some clarification as to why mages wrath is not used (from a sorc main perspective).

1. Bar space.

- This is the number 1 issue with this skill (and sorc in general). Sorcs just don't have the bar space to slot this ability without giving up something better. This is especially true because the sorcs burst combo requires lining up 4 skills already (frags/curse/overload/crushing shock or bound armaments/overload/crystal weapon/curse) and adding mages wrath is a 5th skill/GCD and if pre-cast before the combo, the 4s debuff wears off before the combo lands meaning it is a waste of resources to use it.

2. It's cleansable.

- Same issue as curse, but curse has many more upsides than wrath, most notably it can do its damage at any % of health instead of only below 20%. With sets like Mara's Balm and classes like Warden being in the meta, it's very hard (if not near impossible) to keep the mages wrath debuff on the target to proc it with how freely available cleanse is currently.

3. Far too many bugs and counters to make it viable.

- There's far too many ways to counter this skill.
- It can be dodged (for some reason, which is strange considering its supposed to be a sticky debuff execute).
- It can be blocked (block mitigation is far too high currently with how cheap and easy it is to sustain it).
- Sometimes it just completely fails to proc for no reason at all.
- The threshold to proc it is far too low, someone at 20% health is basically already dead, mages fury just steals the killing blow from the other player that was already going to get the final hit.

5. It's damage just isn't worth it

- It's damage is less than a frags proc (which like curse can deal its damage at any health %, not just below 20%).
- It's damage doesn't scale at all, so even if it does proc, sometimes it can still fail to get the kill (mostly due to undeath passive).

6. Dodge roll is too cheap

- Sorcs burst combo is very predictable and easy to avoid. When you hear/see curse being cast on you (it has a distinct sound and visual), count to 2 then hit dodge roll, this mitigates the majority of a sorcs combo (frags/overload/crushing shock/bound armaments) outside of curse, so unless you were already close to or below 20% health where casting mages wrath only would have proc'd it, the burst combo to get you into mages wrath proc range won't land and won't proc mages wrath.

You'll see people in large groups using it since the group covers utility/defense/burst/pressure, you'll also see it very commonly in low mmr BGs, since most players there don't know what they're doing, don't heal out of its range, don't dodge to avoid sorcs damage that drops them into that range, don't block to mitigate its damage, generally have much squishier builds, etc, so it becomes a very strong finisher in those situations.
But outside of those situations, it just doesn't do anything that a frags/curse proc doesn't already do better, it also makes the burst combo very clunky to use thanks to its awkward (short) timer that prevents it from being precast like an actual debuff, the current meta (mara's + warden and probably soon plar again too with the temp fix to PotL) is just not conducive for it to be a functional skill and it has too many bugs/issues/counter play that make it not worth the huge investment of a valuable bar slot that sorcerer just does not have available for it.

Hope this helps explain why mages wrath is not being used at the higher levels of play (for PvP at least).

Agreed. It seems like the classes that are struggling the most right now (Sorc, Templar) share similar aspects: they both have purgeable effects. Essential effects that are needed to get a kill, mind you. But that raises the question; why isn't DK struggling? Their offensive toolkit consists of DoTs. The answer is that their spammable is reliable and gets the job done. Sorcs and Templars don't have good spammables. Sorc doesn't even have a class spammable. Templar lost its seat in the top tier classes when Jabs was gutted. They can buff all its other skills as much as they want, but the class will remain trash unless Jabs gets a buff. The top classes right now don't even need an execute.

It's not that sorc don't need good spammable, if they would have one that would be better than non class options they would be using it. It's just since they don't have one they are usually looking for other options or they will stick with crystal weapons which is ok ability at best. Sorc never had a great class spammable and there were times when he was dominating playingfield.

Even with changed jabs templar was very strong spec not that long ago. In BGs You could nuke almost everyone out of the existance. It's just recently in update 36 when ZoS nerfed backlash dmg when templar noticed big drop of dmg effectiveness in solo play. Same as You don't always need execute on every spec to be a strong class You also don't need great class spammable to be one. Templar current kit is really not that far from being really good but I guess ZoS is hesitant to give templar strong burst option again due to the fact javelin and beam are now really strong and oppresive abilities that are almost brainlesly spammed in group PvP because of how efefctive they are.

As for DK it's not just about spammable. They had that spammable for years. What made DK strong is few things combined and many of them don't even come directly from DK specific buffs. First is the fact that now almost everyone is stage 3 vampire for undeath passive which is OP in PvP but it gives DK big dmg buff since noticable portion of his dmg is flame dmg. Than there is buffed charged trait which complements combustion passive. Than there is hybrydisation which allowed DK to create coherent toolkit and take more adventage of already mentioned combustion passive improvements. Than we have things like sea serpent coil mythic which allows DK to build more tankiness while still gettting enough dmg

All the top classes have an additional PvP-relevant effect on their spammables. NBs have increased damaged on both of its morphs of Concealed. DKs have increased damage on both of the Whip morphs. Wardens also have increased damage scaling and a DoT on its respective Cliff Racer morphs. Jabs has a snare. Snares are good on other skills that are designed for CC. A spammable is not the place to place a CC. Snares are obsolete. We already have a 40% snare on Living Dark. By the snare rules, only the highest snare is applied. We are nullifying the Jabs snare by using Living Dark. People need to take damage and they need to take a lot of it to die. A snare accomplishes none of that. Snare immunity is so widely available, and it is a requirement for anyone delving into PvP zones. The only place you don't need snare immunity is in duels because you're fighting face-to-face the entire time. I would like to see Jabs become a targetable ability like Flurry and its morphs. It can still do AoE damage but it would allow us to inflict the full amount of damage to our intended target.

You are looking at things from a narrow point of view. Fact that nb and dk have right now decent secondary effects in their spammables doesn't mean it's a default rule for class to be good in PvP. Warden is pretty good example. He is not even using his spammable that often, many wardens preffer weapon spammables. When he was a top dog in PvP he was not using his spammables at all. Same goes for necro, during the era that class was dominating skulls were not used. There were times when magsorcs were a meta and they were not using class spammable so even class without a good class spammable can be good in PvP given right conditions. There was even a time when stam DK was strong in PvP and he was not using a class spammable. Right now many classes do really good job with master dual wield and rending slashes and that build will possibly gain more popularity in new patch after mara's balm nerf. Once again, having a strong class spammable is not a must have for a class to be good in PvP. Jabs and living dark flare snares are two different types of snares. One is used more offensively seconds is used more defensively. Jabs also have a bit of healing in one of the morphs and major sorcery/brutality You want so much plus bit more AoE dmg on the other morph. Templar was among top classes just one patch ago and jabs were the same back then as they are right now so it's more than enough proof that jabs do not need changes for templar to be good. Jabs requiring a target would be actually a nerf to the ability.

So if it's not Jabs, according to you, what's the problem with the class? I've made many valid points that other people agree on but you just seem to have all the answers and seem to want to keep Templar a sub-tier class.

maxjapank

Galeriano wrote: »

With poor game performance You need to click many abilities multiple times for game to register and templar beam is not any better or worse at this than any other ability.

But it's not the same as other abilities. Lag aside, I can use any other skill in the Templar toolkit and have it go off with one click. But not Radiant. I'm not sure why it is though. But it's been that way for a while.

OnGodiDoDis

Elendir2am wrote: »

I am far from experienced templar player, but with trivial combo:
Elemental Susceptibility (Vateshran's destro), Purifying Light, Aurora Javelin, jabs/jesus beam
I could wipe most of DKs I met. And as I read on this forum DKs are OP class

It's fairly easy to counter a Templar. The first thing you need to do when you see PotL is block the gap-closer stun, then purge PotL and the Sweep DoT and you're good.

Galeriano

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't get why mages wrath wouldn't be used. It literally steels kills from ROwith ease because if the 1.8 second channel time assuming you are in group play. Yes, RO is strong but it gets outweighed by the ability to preload and supplement the burst and AOE of mages wrath. Now, once templar starts having their delayed burst amount to anything again; it's usefulness goes back up

Just want to provide some clarification as to why mages wrath is not used (from a sorc main perspective).

1. Bar space.

- This is the number 1 issue with this skill (and sorc in general). Sorcs just don't have the bar space to slot this ability without giving up something better. This is especially true because the sorcs burst combo requires lining up 4 skills already (frags/curse/overload/crushing shock or bound armaments/overload/crystal weapon/curse) and adding mages wrath is a 5th skill/GCD and if pre-cast before the combo, the 4s debuff wears off before the combo lands meaning it is a waste of resources to use it.

2. It's cleansable.

- Same issue as curse, but curse has many more upsides than wrath, most notably it can do its damage at any % of health instead of only below 20%. With sets like Mara's Balm and classes like Warden being in the meta, it's very hard (if not near impossible) to keep the mages wrath debuff on the target to proc it with how freely available cleanse is currently.

3. Far too many bugs and counters to make it viable.

- There's far too many ways to counter this skill.
- It can be dodged (for some reason, which is strange considering its supposed to be a sticky debuff execute).
- It can be blocked (block mitigation is far too high currently with how cheap and easy it is to sustain it).
- Sometimes it just completely fails to proc for no reason at all.
- The threshold to proc it is far too low, someone at 20% health is basically already dead, mages fury just steals the killing blow from the other player that was already going to get the final hit.

5. It's damage just isn't worth it

- It's damage is less than a frags proc (which like curse can deal its damage at any health %, not just below 20%).
- It's damage doesn't scale at all, so even if it does proc, sometimes it can still fail to get the kill (mostly due to undeath passive).

6. Dodge roll is too cheap

- Sorcs burst combo is very predictable and easy to avoid. When you hear/see curse being cast on you (it has a distinct sound and visual), count to 2 then hit dodge roll, this mitigates the majority of a sorcs combo (frags/overload/crushing shock/bound armaments) outside of curse, so unless you were already close to or below 20% health where casting mages wrath only would have proc'd it, the burst combo to get you into mages wrath proc range won't land and won't proc mages wrath.

You'll see people in large groups using it since the group covers utility/defense/burst/pressure, you'll also see it very commonly in low mmr BGs, since most players there don't know what they're doing, don't heal out of its range, don't dodge to avoid sorcs damage that drops them into that range, don't block to mitigate its damage, generally have much squishier builds, etc, so it becomes a very strong finisher in those situations.
But outside of those situations, it just doesn't do anything that a frags/curse proc doesn't already do better, it also makes the burst combo very clunky to use thanks to its awkward (short) timer that prevents it from being precast like an actual debuff, the current meta (mara's + warden and probably soon plar again too with the temp fix to PotL) is just not conducive for it to be a functional skill and it has too many bugs/issues/counter play that make it not worth the huge investment of a valuable bar slot that sorcerer just does not have available for it.

Hope this helps explain why mages wrath is not being used at the higher levels of play (for PvP at least).

Agreed. It seems like the classes that are struggling the most right now (Sorc, Templar) share similar aspects: they both have purgeable effects. Essential effects that are needed to get a kill, mind you. But that raises the question; why isn't DK struggling? Their offensive toolkit consists of DoTs. The answer is that their spammable is reliable and gets the job done. Sorcs and Templars don't have good spammables. Sorc doesn't even have a class spammable. Templar lost its seat in the top tier classes when Jabs was gutted. They can buff all its other skills as much as they want, but the class will remain trash unless Jabs gets a buff. The top classes right now don't even need an execute.

It's not that sorc don't need good spammable, if they would have one that would be better than non class options they would be using it. It's just since they don't have one they are usually looking for other options or they will stick with crystal weapons which is ok ability at best. Sorc never had a great class spammable and there were times when he was dominating playingfield.

Even with changed jabs templar was very strong spec not that long ago. In BGs You could nuke almost everyone out of the existance. It's just recently in update 36 when ZoS nerfed backlash dmg when templar noticed big drop of dmg effectiveness in solo play. Same as You don't always need execute on every spec to be a strong class You also don't need great class spammable to be one. Templar current kit is really not that far from being really good but I guess ZoS is hesitant to give templar strong burst option again due to the fact javelin and beam are now really strong and oppresive abilities that are almost brainlesly spammed in group PvP because of how efefctive they are.

As for DK it's not just about spammable. They had that spammable for years. What made DK strong is few things combined and many of them don't even come directly from DK specific buffs. First is the fact that now almost everyone is stage 3 vampire for undeath passive which is OP in PvP but it gives DK big dmg buff since noticable portion of his dmg is flame dmg. Than there is buffed charged trait which complements combustion passive. Than there is hybrydisation which allowed DK to create coherent toolkit and take more adventage of already mentioned combustion passive improvements. Than we have things like sea serpent coil mythic which allows DK to build more tankiness while still gettting enough dmg

All the top classes have an additional PvP-relevant effect on their spammables. NBs have increased damaged on both of its morphs of Concealed. DKs have increased damage on both of the Whip morphs. Wardens also have increased damage scaling and a DoT on its respective Cliff Racer morphs. Jabs has a snare. Snares are good on other skills that are designed for CC. A spammable is not the place to place a CC. Snares are obsolete. We already have a 40% snare on Living Dark. By the snare rules, only the highest snare is applied. We are nullifying the Jabs snare by using Living Dark. People need to take damage and they need to take a lot of it to die. A snare accomplishes none of that. Snare immunity is so widely available, and it is a requirement for anyone delving into PvP zones. The only place you don't need snare immunity is in duels because you're fighting face-to-face the entire time. I would like to see Jabs become a targetable ability like Flurry and its morphs. It can still do AoE damage but it would allow us to inflict the full amount of damage to our intended target.

You are looking at things from a narrow point of view. Fact that nb and dk have right now decent secondary effects in their spammables doesn't mean it's a default rule for class to be good in PvP. Warden is pretty good example. He is not even using his spammable that often, many wardens preffer weapon spammables. When he was a top dog in PvP he was not using his spammables at all. Same goes for necro, during the era that class was dominating skulls were not used. There were times when magsorcs were a meta and they were not using class spammable so even class without a good class spammable can be good in PvP given right conditions. There was even a time when stam DK was strong in PvP and he was not using a class spammable. Right now many classes do really good job with master dual wield and rending slashes and that build will possibly gain more popularity in new patch after mara's balm nerf. Once again, having a strong class spammable is not a must have for a class to be good in PvP. Jabs and living dark flare snares are two different types of snares. One is used more offensively seconds is used more defensively. Jabs also have a bit of healing in one of the morphs and major sorcery/brutality You want so much plus bit more AoE dmg on the other morph. Templar was among top classes just one patch ago and jabs were the same back then as they are right now so it's more than enough proof that jabs do not need changes for templar to be good. Jabs requiring a target would be actually a nerf to the ability.

So if it's not Jabs, according to you, what's the problem with the class? I've made many valid points that other people agree on but you just seem to have all the answers and seem to want to keep Templar a sub-tier class.

It's lack of burst damage after backlash scaling was drastically lowered. As I've already said even after jabs were changed templar was still able to nuke people up until the point backlash damage was nerfed. Buffing damage of jabs really won't change much because at best this ability will get like 20% dmg increase which would be still not enough to damage people down fast enough. It would be just like 1k dmg more every 1 second so after 3-4 jabs casts You would deal merely 3-4k more dmg. Regular HoT is capable to outheal that. Puryfying light was capable to deal around 10k dmg with single explosion with properly aligned combo and now it deals like 3-4k so that 6k dmg loss in single second of the burst is a noticable difference.

Problem with giving templar high burst damage back is the fact that in group play templar is doing really decent job with javelin, beam and option to support allies with heals and purge.

mmtaniac

Templar work perfect as a support class but can't be lead because is bad at effective 1vx. Maybe exist some builds that give you this option but on other classes i can do that with every build even with most bad builds ever i would perform better.
I played NB that is just bad in my hands and it's easier to 1vx than templar that i have wide skill and knowledge. Nb just kill, burst is solid and you have easy way out , on templar you just scratch them on back and believe if way to escape exist if something will not work.

Marcus684

From what I've seen, the majority of players that claim that templar's are now trash in PvP are templar mains, by a wide margin. Pretty much everyone else agrees that templars have dropped from what was clearly a very strong class to middle-of-the-road. The best players still wreck face with it while mid-tier PvPers that used to have an easy time with it now struggle.

I PvP with a stam and mag version of every class and have a much easier time on my plars than say, my necros and sorcs. Their burst isn't what it once was but is still decent and survivability is still very good, but now I struggle more than I used to against top-tier players and have a harder time taking out the current meta tanks.

Templars had their time at the top and the powers that be have apparently chosen DKs to be the current favorite, which I'm sure will change with the release of Necrom. Gotta sell the new chapter.

Syiccal

Marcus684 wrote: »

From what I've seen, the majority of players that claim that templar's are now trash in PvP are templar mains, by a wide margin. Pretty much everyone else agrees that templars have dropped from what was clearly a very strong class to middle-of-the-road. The best players still wreck face with it while mid-tier PvPers that used to have an easy time with it now struggle.

I PvP with a stam and mag version of every class and have a much easier time on my plars than say, my necros and sorcs. Their burst isn't what it once was but is still decent and survivability is still very good, but now I struggle more than I used to against top-tier players and have a harder time taking out the current meta tanks.

Templars had their time at the top and the powers that be have apparently chosen DKs to be the current favorite, which I'm sure will change with the release of Necrom. Gotta sell the new chapter.

Yea although from what I've seen arcansit doesn't seem all that good in pvp,

Marcus684

Syiccal wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

From what I've seen, the majority of players that claim that templar's are now trash in PvP are templar mains, by a wide margin. Pretty much everyone else agrees that templars have dropped from what was clearly a very strong class to middle-of-the-road. The best players still wreck face with it while mid-tier PvPers that used to have an easy time with it now struggle.

I PvP with a stam and mag version of every class and have a much easier time on my plars than say, my necros and sorcs. Their burst isn't what it once was but is still decent and survivability is still very good, but now I struggle more than I used to against top-tier players and have a harder time taking out the current meta tanks.

Templars had their time at the top and the powers that be have apparently chosen DKs to be the current favorite, which I'm sure will change with the release of Necrom. Gotta sell the new chapter.

Yea although from what I've seen arcansit doesn't seem all that good in pvp,

I haven't tested it out, but if ZOS follows their past trend, arcanist will not initially be a great solo PvP class, just like warden and necro weren't, but will likely have a good niche in group play. IMO ZOS doesn't typically design classes around solo PvP, but rather group PvP or PvE. It's the players that figure out the strong solo builds.

El_Borracho

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

You bring up some decent points, but this one I have an issue with. Templars' ultimate has always been outshined by the one skill you omitted: Radiant Oppression/Radiant Glory. Do you really need an ultimate on the level with Corrosive Armor to go with Radiant? It kicks out 480-500% more damage at 50% health, is ranged, and doesn't really cost that much, especially compared to something like Fossilize, and puts out way more damage than Impale for almost the same cost.

There are better executes: Whirling Blades and Executioner. They cannot be interrupted and the damage is instant, not a DoT. Some builds don't even need an execute (NBs, Wardens, Necros, DKs).

Disagree. Whirling Blades costs more and you have to be in melee range for it to be effective. Execute is the same cost, but both can be roll dodged out of. And the best way to defend against both is with something like Fossilize. The range on RO is much further away, its cheaper, and it is obviously spammable given the numbers of people running it instead of Whirling Blades or Execute. Sure you can interrupt it if you are running an interrupt or are in melee range. But anyone who knows how to play Templar isn't using RO when right up on a target.

My point wasn't to compare executes, it was to point out that RO has always been stronger than the Templar's ultimate because RO is a powerful execute. If you were to couple it with Corrosive Armor, or even something like the Colossus, that would be insane. Especially since both the DK and Necro do NOT have an execute, let alone an execute on the level of RO. Comparing Templar ultimates to DK ultimates is pointless as the balance in class skills is global, not who has the better ultimate.

I thought this was a class skill comparison. But if you want to expand it into all skills, you answered your own question. Run Dawnbreaker or Ice Comet for an ultimate instead of Nova or Sweep.

IDK if you haven't been in Cyrodiil, but you can ask anyone how many times they've seen Spin in their death recap. Spin kills more people, it doesn't matter if it costs more. It's not a spammable, you cast it once or twice and that's it. I AM talking about class skills, hence why I am pointing out that the beam isn't the best in the game. In order to prove that it isn't, I must compare it to other skills. It's really that simple. With your logic, it would be like insinuating that D Swing is the best spammable because it hits hard. D Swing is one of the hardest skills to land, making other spammables considerably better.

D Swing. Kind of like arguing Mages Wrath is a better execute than RO.

DK doesn't have a class execute but instead has great class ultimates versus Templar which does have a class execute and a meh ultimate. Until they nerfed Nightblades to the ground, that was the only class that had both a great ultimate and a great class execute. You might think the beam is not the best class execute, but it is. What is the competition? Mages Wrath? LOL. Incap? Not for a while now. But that's it for that list. Because there are no other class executes out there. As all of the other executes are skills based and are available to all classes.

From that list, its pretty clear that the devs don't want that combo anymore as both Nightblade and Templar also have meh ultimates. So to complain about Templars "only" having Jesus Beam and not an ultimate like Corrosive Armor to go with it is pretty odd, seeing as no class has that combo. Run Whirling Blades with Dawnbreaker.

Kartalin

Whenever I find myself being Xv1d there's usually a templar beaming me from behind the frontline combatants, so there's that. Very satisfying to come back and kill them while their friends beat on me then try to escape whenever that happens

I've been playing a lot of bgs recently messing with different brawler builds, mainly on warden. The standard templar combo right now is meteor -> javelin -> beam and unless you're 5 cm from LOS this can be a really easy/annoying way to die. So whatever people are doing to buff the damage there is not bad. Still I find myself being beamed from full or almost full health so it's not something that necessarily stands on its own.

There were a couple bgs yesterday where I was getting absolutely punished by a templar running that combo but also were good enough to wait until I was low enough health (generally 50%) to make sure it would work. I think they had venomous smite going based on my recap and I'm not sure what else.

But generally the ones running that combo will still be a team build, and templars do work well in a team providing damage and healing to the group. I posted a build a couple weeks ago that I was playing in bgs with war maiden front bar, rallying cry back bar, 2 bloodspawn, 1 trainee, and markyn. It works well in that role. (combo was dark flare, javelin, beam, with crescent sweep ult, all doing mag damage being buffed by war maiden) Finding a build that works well solo is an entirely different beast. Zephier recently posted a video on youtube that looks like it might be good next update, but I think that's more due to Zephier himself than the build necessarily.

I think there's still an excellent role for templars to fill, both in this patch and the next, but if we're talking 1vX I don't think it's going to match or outmatch DKs, Wardens, or NBs in that scenario.

StarOfElyon

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

1) Mobility: They lack a class source of Major Expedition. Hasty Prayer provides Minor Expedition only. Nobody is going to slot two sources of speed. Nobody is wasting cooldowns and resources on two speed skills. We only go for Major Expedition.
2) Pressure: Jabs is easy to evade mainly due to its reliance on snaring its targets. The broad availability of snare removal/immunity in PvP zones makes this effect utterly useless. It's easy to run circles around someone using Jabs even with the camera sensitivity set to max. This is because skills like the Warden wings and Race Against Time provide both snare immunity and Major Expedition.
3) Buffs: Some skills have some odd buffs. Jabs has Minor Protection attached to it when it should be attached to a defensive skill. We can't use Jabs when we're on the backbar healing, hence we miss out on the Minor Protection. That's why most people just backbar Temporal Guard which takes up a slot for a healing ulti. Perhaps an offensive buff or effect would be better on Jabs? We also don't have a class source for Major Sorcery/Brutality. DKs have Major and Minor Brutality, why can't we have Major and Minor Sorcery?
4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

In the patch notes, the devs mentioned that they wanted to purposefully give Templars some weakness in PvP. I don't see any weaknesses in NBs or DKs. Those two classes have excellent single-target and AoE potential. Wardens just pull up with 40k HP and still one-piece people. I don't understand the logic behind intentionally debilitating an already underperfoming class.
Discuss.

All that Templars need now is a slight buff to sweeps and a nerf to the beam. They will be in a great spot.

OnGodiDoDis

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't get why mages wrath wouldn't be used. It literally steels kills from ROwith ease because if the 1.8 second channel time assuming you are in group play. Yes, RO is strong but it gets outweighed by the ability to preload and supplement the burst and AOE of mages wrath. Now, once templar starts having their delayed burst amount to anything again; it's usefulness goes back up

Just want to provide some clarification as to why mages wrath is not used (from a sorc main perspective).

1. Bar space.

- This is the number 1 issue with this skill (and sorc in general). Sorcs just don't have the bar space to slot this ability without giving up something better. This is especially true because the sorcs burst combo requires lining up 4 skills already (frags/curse/overload/crushing shock or bound armaments/overload/crystal weapon/curse) and adding mages wrath is a 5th skill/GCD and if pre-cast before the combo, the 4s debuff wears off before the combo lands meaning it is a waste of resources to use it.

2. It's cleansable.

- Same issue as curse, but curse has many more upsides than wrath, most notably it can do its damage at any % of health instead of only below 20%. With sets like Mara's Balm and classes like Warden being in the meta, it's very hard (if not near impossible) to keep the mages wrath debuff on the target to proc it with how freely available cleanse is currently.

3. Far too many bugs and counters to make it viable.

- There's far too many ways to counter this skill.
- It can be dodged (for some reason, which is strange considering its supposed to be a sticky debuff execute).
- It can be blocked (block mitigation is far too high currently with how cheap and easy it is to sustain it).
- Sometimes it just completely fails to proc for no reason at all.
- The threshold to proc it is far too low, someone at 20% health is basically already dead, mages fury just steals the killing blow from the other player that was already going to get the final hit.

5. It's damage just isn't worth it

- It's damage is less than a frags proc (which like curse can deal its damage at any health %, not just below 20%).
- It's damage doesn't scale at all, so even if it does proc, sometimes it can still fail to get the kill (mostly due to undeath passive).

6. Dodge roll is too cheap

- Sorcs burst combo is very predictable and easy to avoid. When you hear/see curse being cast on you (it has a distinct sound and visual), count to 2 then hit dodge roll, this mitigates the majority of a sorcs combo (frags/overload/crushing shock/bound armaments) outside of curse, so unless you were already close to or below 20% health where casting mages wrath only would have proc'd it, the burst combo to get you into mages wrath proc range won't land and won't proc mages wrath.

You'll see people in large groups using it since the group covers utility/defense/burst/pressure, you'll also see it very commonly in low mmr BGs, since most players there don't know what they're doing, don't heal out of its range, don't dodge to avoid sorcs damage that drops them into that range, don't block to mitigate its damage, generally have much squishier builds, etc, so it becomes a very strong finisher in those situations.
But outside of those situations, it just doesn't do anything that a frags/curse proc doesn't already do better, it also makes the burst combo very clunky to use thanks to its awkward (short) timer that prevents it from being precast like an actual debuff, the current meta (mara's + warden and probably soon plar again too with the temp fix to PotL) is just not conducive for it to be a functional skill and it has too many bugs/issues/counter play that make it not worth the huge investment of a valuable bar slot that sorcerer just does not have available for it.

Hope this helps explain why mages wrath is not being used at the higher levels of play (for PvP at least).

Agreed. It seems like the classes that are struggling the most right now (Sorc, Templar) share similar aspects: they both have purgeable effects. Essential effects that are needed to get a kill, mind you. But that raises the question; why isn't DK struggling? Their offensive toolkit consists of DoTs. The answer is that their spammable is reliable and gets the job done. Sorcs and Templars don't have good spammables. Sorc doesn't even have a class spammable. Templar lost its seat in the top tier classes when Jabs was gutted. They can buff all its other skills as much as they want, but the class will remain trash unless Jabs gets a buff. The top classes right now don't even need an execute.

It's not that sorc don't need good spammable, if they would have one that would be better than non class options they would be using it. It's just since they don't have one they are usually looking for other options or they will stick with crystal weapons which is ok ability at best. Sorc never had a great class spammable and there were times when he was dominating playingfield.

Even with changed jabs templar was very strong spec not that long ago. In BGs You could nuke almost everyone out of the existance. It's just recently in update 36 when ZoS nerfed backlash dmg when templar noticed big drop of dmg effectiveness in solo play. Same as You don't always need execute on every spec to be a strong class You also don't need great class spammable to be one. Templar current kit is really not that far from being really good but I guess ZoS is hesitant to give templar strong burst option again due to the fact javelin and beam are now really strong and oppresive abilities that are almost brainlesly spammed in group PvP because of how efefctive they are.

As for DK it's not just about spammable. They had that spammable for years. What made DK strong is few things combined and many of them don't even come directly from DK specific buffs. First is the fact that now almost everyone is stage 3 vampire for undeath passive which is OP in PvP but it gives DK big dmg buff since noticable portion of his dmg is flame dmg. Than there is buffed charged trait which complements combustion passive. Than there is hybrydisation which allowed DK to create coherent toolkit and take more adventage of already mentioned combustion passive improvements. Than we have things like sea serpent coil mythic which allows DK to build more tankiness while still gettting enough dmg

All the top classes have an additional PvP-relevant effect on their spammables. NBs have increased damaged on both of its morphs of Concealed. DKs have increased damage on both of the Whip morphs. Wardens also have increased damage scaling and a DoT on its respective Cliff Racer morphs. Jabs has a snare. Snares are good on other skills that are designed for CC. A spammable is not the place to place a CC. Snares are obsolete. We already have a 40% snare on Living Dark. By the snare rules, only the highest snare is applied. We are nullifying the Jabs snare by using Living Dark. People need to take damage and they need to take a lot of it to die. A snare accomplishes none of that. Snare immunity is so widely available, and it is a requirement for anyone delving into PvP zones. The only place you don't need snare immunity is in duels because you're fighting face-to-face the entire time. I would like to see Jabs become a targetable ability like Flurry and its morphs. It can still do AoE damage but it would allow us to inflict the full amount of damage to our intended target.

You are looking at things from a narrow point of view. Fact that nb and dk have right now decent secondary effects in their spammables doesn't mean it's a default rule for class to be good in PvP. Warden is pretty good example. He is not even using his spammable that often, many wardens preffer weapon spammables. When he was a top dog in PvP he was not using his spammables at all. Same goes for necro, during the era that class was dominating skulls were not used. There were times when magsorcs were a meta and they were not using class spammable so even class without a good class spammable can be good in PvP given right conditions. There was even a time when stam DK was strong in PvP and he was not using a class spammable. Right now many classes do really good job with master dual wield and rending slashes and that build will possibly gain more popularity in new patch after mara's balm nerf. Once again, having a strong class spammable is not a must have for a class to be good in PvP. Jabs and living dark flare snares are two different types of snares. One is used more offensively seconds is used more defensively. Jabs also have a bit of healing in one of the morphs and major sorcery/brutality You want so much plus bit more AoE dmg on the other morph. Templar was among top classes just one patch ago and jabs were the same back then as they are right now so it's more than enough proof that jabs do not need changes for templar to be good. Jabs requiring a target would be actually a nerf to the ability.

So if it's not Jabs, according to you, what's the problem with the class? I've made many valid points that other people agree on but you just seem to have all the answers and seem to want to keep Templar a sub-tier class.

It's lack of burst damage after backlash scaling was drastically lowered. As I've already said even after jabs were changed templar was still able to nuke people up until the point backlash damage was nerfed. Buffing damage of jabs really won't change much because at best this ability will get like 20% dmg increase which would be still not enough to damage people down fast enough. It would be just like 1k dmg more every 1 second so after 3-4 jabs casts You would deal merely 3-4k more dmg. Regular HoT is capable to outheal that. Puryfying light was capable to deal around 10k dmg with single explosion with properly aligned combo and now it deals like 3-4k so that 6k dmg loss in single second of the burst is a noticable difference.

Problem with giving templar high burst damage back is the fact that in group play templar is doing really decent job with javelin, beam and option to support allies with heals and purge.

So where do you think Templars get their burst damage from? I already mentioned that it's not just Jabs that lacks pressure, it's the entire offensive kit, including Jabs. Somehow you ended up agreeing with me after constantly ranting about how I was wrong. You just want to argue to argue.

OnGodiDoDis

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

You bring up some decent points, but this one I have an issue with. Templars' ultimate has always been outshined by the one skill you omitted: Radiant Oppression/Radiant Glory. Do you really need an ultimate on the level with Corrosive Armor to go with Radiant? It kicks out 480-500% more damage at 50% health, is ranged, and doesn't really cost that much, especially compared to something like Fossilize, and puts out way more damage than Impale for almost the same cost.

There are better executes: Whirling Blades and Executioner. They cannot be interrupted and the damage is instant, not a DoT. Some builds don't even need an execute (NBs, Wardens, Necros, DKs).

Disagree. Whirling Blades costs more and you have to be in melee range for it to be effective. Execute is the same cost, but both can be roll dodged out of. And the best way to defend against both is with something like Fossilize. The range on RO is much further away, its cheaper, and it is obviously spammable given the numbers of people running it instead of Whirling Blades or Execute. Sure you can interrupt it if you are running an interrupt or are in melee range. But anyone who knows how to play Templar isn't using RO when right up on a target.

My point wasn't to compare executes, it was to point out that RO has always been stronger than the Templar's ultimate because RO is a powerful execute. If you were to couple it with Corrosive Armor, or even something like the Colossus, that would be insane. Especially since both the DK and Necro do NOT have an execute, let alone an execute on the level of RO. Comparing Templar ultimates to DK ultimates is pointless as the balance in class skills is global, not who has the better ultimate.

I thought this was a class skill comparison. But if you want to expand it into all skills, you answered your own question. Run Dawnbreaker or Ice Comet for an ultimate instead of Nova or Sweep.

IDK if you haven't been in Cyrodiil, but you can ask anyone how many times they've seen Spin in their death recap. Spin kills more people, it doesn't matter if it costs more. It's not a spammable, you cast it once or twice and that's it. I AM talking about class skills, hence why I am pointing out that the beam isn't the best in the game. In order to prove that it isn't, I must compare it to other skills. It's really that simple. With your logic, it would be like insinuating that D Swing is the best spammable because it hits hard. D Swing is one of the hardest skills to land, making other spammables considerably better.

D Swing. Kind of like arguing Mages Wrath is a better execute than RO.

DK doesn't have a class execute but instead has great class ultimates versus Templar which does have a class execute and a meh ultimate. Until they nerfed Nightblades to the ground, that was the only class that had both a great ultimate and a great class execute. You might think the beam is not the best class execute, but it is. What is the competition? Mages Wrath? LOL. Incap? Not for a while now. But that's it for that list. Because there are no other class executes out there. As all of the other executes are skills based and are available to all classes.

From that list, its pretty clear that the devs don't want that combo anymore as both Nightblade and Templar also have meh ultimates. So to complain about Templars "only" having Jesus Beam and not an ultimate like Corrosive Armor to go with it is pretty odd, seeing as no class has that combo. Run Whirling Blades with Dawnbreaker.

I stopped reading after you said NBs were nerfed to the ground. That is just blasphemous for anyone to say. NBs and DKs are the top classes right now, Wardens are only on top due to their defensive capabilities.

Galeriano

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't get why mages wrath wouldn't be used. It literally steels kills from ROwith ease because if the 1.8 second channel time assuming you are in group play. Yes, RO is strong but it gets outweighed by the ability to preload and supplement the burst and AOE of mages wrath. Now, once templar starts having their delayed burst amount to anything again; it's usefulness goes back up

Just want to provide some clarification as to why mages wrath is not used (from a sorc main perspective).

1. Bar space.

- This is the number 1 issue with this skill (and sorc in general). Sorcs just don't have the bar space to slot this ability without giving up something better. This is especially true because the sorcs burst combo requires lining up 4 skills already (frags/curse/overload/crushing shock or bound armaments/overload/crystal weapon/curse) and adding mages wrath is a 5th skill/GCD and if pre-cast before the combo, the 4s debuff wears off before the combo lands meaning it is a waste of resources to use it.

2. It's cleansable.

- Same issue as curse, but curse has many more upsides than wrath, most notably it can do its damage at any % of health instead of only below 20%. With sets like Mara's Balm and classes like Warden being in the meta, it's very hard (if not near impossible) to keep the mages wrath debuff on the target to proc it with how freely available cleanse is currently.

3. Far too many bugs and counters to make it viable.

- There's far too many ways to counter this skill.
- It can be dodged (for some reason, which is strange considering its supposed to be a sticky debuff execute).
- It can be blocked (block mitigation is far too high currently with how cheap and easy it is to sustain it).
- Sometimes it just completely fails to proc for no reason at all.
- The threshold to proc it is far too low, someone at 20% health is basically already dead, mages fury just steals the killing blow from the other player that was already going to get the final hit.

5. It's damage just isn't worth it

- It's damage is less than a frags proc (which like curse can deal its damage at any health %, not just below 20%).
- It's damage doesn't scale at all, so even if it does proc, sometimes it can still fail to get the kill (mostly due to undeath passive).

6. Dodge roll is too cheap

- Sorcs burst combo is very predictable and easy to avoid. When you hear/see curse being cast on you (it has a distinct sound and visual), count to 2 then hit dodge roll, this mitigates the majority of a sorcs combo (frags/overload/crushing shock/bound armaments) outside of curse, so unless you were already close to or below 20% health where casting mages wrath only would have proc'd it, the burst combo to get you into mages wrath proc range won't land and won't proc mages wrath.

You'll see people in large groups using it since the group covers utility/defense/burst/pressure, you'll also see it very commonly in low mmr BGs, since most players there don't know what they're doing, don't heal out of its range, don't dodge to avoid sorcs damage that drops them into that range, don't block to mitigate its damage, generally have much squishier builds, etc, so it becomes a very strong finisher in those situations.
But outside of those situations, it just doesn't do anything that a frags/curse proc doesn't already do better, it also makes the burst combo very clunky to use thanks to its awkward (short) timer that prevents it from being precast like an actual debuff, the current meta (mara's + warden and probably soon plar again too with the temp fix to PotL) is just not conducive for it to be a functional skill and it has too many bugs/issues/counter play that make it not worth the huge investment of a valuable bar slot that sorcerer just does not have available for it.

Hope this helps explain why mages wrath is not being used at the higher levels of play (for PvP at least).

Agreed. It seems like the classes that are struggling the most right now (Sorc, Templar) share similar aspects: they both have purgeable effects. Essential effects that are needed to get a kill, mind you. But that raises the question; why isn't DK struggling? Their offensive toolkit consists of DoTs. The answer is that their spammable is reliable and gets the job done. Sorcs and Templars don't have good spammables. Sorc doesn't even have a class spammable. Templar lost its seat in the top tier classes when Jabs was gutted. They can buff all its other skills as much as they want, but the class will remain trash unless Jabs gets a buff. The top classes right now don't even need an execute.

It's not that sorc don't need good spammable, if they would have one that would be better than non class options they would be using it. It's just since they don't have one they are usually looking for other options or they will stick with crystal weapons which is ok ability at best. Sorc never had a great class spammable and there were times when he was dominating playingfield.

Even with changed jabs templar was very strong spec not that long ago. In BGs You could nuke almost everyone out of the existance. It's just recently in update 36 when ZoS nerfed backlash dmg when templar noticed big drop of dmg effectiveness in solo play. Same as You don't always need execute on every spec to be a strong class You also don't need great class spammable to be one. Templar current kit is really not that far from being really good but I guess ZoS is hesitant to give templar strong burst option again due to the fact javelin and beam are now really strong and oppresive abilities that are almost brainlesly spammed in group PvP because of how efefctive they are.

As for DK it's not just about spammable. They had that spammable for years. What made DK strong is few things combined and many of them don't even come directly from DK specific buffs. First is the fact that now almost everyone is stage 3 vampire for undeath passive which is OP in PvP but it gives DK big dmg buff since noticable portion of his dmg is flame dmg. Than there is buffed charged trait which complements combustion passive. Than there is hybrydisation which allowed DK to create coherent toolkit and take more adventage of already mentioned combustion passive improvements. Than we have things like sea serpent coil mythic which allows DK to build more tankiness while still gettting enough dmg

All the top classes have an additional PvP-relevant effect on their spammables. NBs have increased damaged on both of its morphs of Concealed. DKs have increased damage on both of the Whip morphs. Wardens also have increased damage scaling and a DoT on its respective Cliff Racer morphs. Jabs has a snare. Snares are good on other skills that are designed for CC. A spammable is not the place to place a CC. Snares are obsolete. We already have a 40% snare on Living Dark. By the snare rules, only the highest snare is applied. We are nullifying the Jabs snare by using Living Dark. People need to take damage and they need to take a lot of it to die. A snare accomplishes none of that. Snare immunity is so widely available, and it is a requirement for anyone delving into PvP zones. The only place you don't need snare immunity is in duels because you're fighting face-to-face the entire time. I would like to see Jabs become a targetable ability like Flurry and its morphs. It can still do AoE damage but it would allow us to inflict the full amount of damage to our intended target.

You are looking at things from a narrow point of view. Fact that nb and dk have right now decent secondary effects in their spammables doesn't mean it's a default rule for class to be good in PvP. Warden is pretty good example. He is not even using his spammable that often, many wardens preffer weapon spammables. When he was a top dog in PvP he was not using his spammables at all. Same goes for necro, during the era that class was dominating skulls were not used. There were times when magsorcs were a meta and they were not using class spammable so even class without a good class spammable can be good in PvP given right conditions. There was even a time when stam DK was strong in PvP and he was not using a class spammable. Right now many classes do really good job with master dual wield and rending slashes and that build will possibly gain more popularity in new patch after mara's balm nerf. Once again, having a strong class spammable is not a must have for a class to be good in PvP. Jabs and living dark flare snares are two different types of snares. One is used more offensively seconds is used more defensively. Jabs also have a bit of healing in one of the morphs and major sorcery/brutality You want so much plus bit more AoE dmg on the other morph. Templar was among top classes just one patch ago and jabs were the same back then as they are right now so it's more than enough proof that jabs do not need changes for templar to be good. Jabs requiring a target would be actually a nerf to the ability.

So if it's not Jabs, according to you, what's the problem with the class? I've made many valid points that other people agree on but you just seem to have all the answers and seem to want to keep Templar a sub-tier class.

It's lack of burst damage after backlash scaling was drastically lowered. As I've already said even after jabs were changed templar was still able to nuke people up until the point backlash damage was nerfed. Buffing damage of jabs really won't change much because at best this ability will get like 20% dmg increase which would be still not enough to damage people down fast enough. It would be just like 1k dmg more every 1 second so after 3-4 jabs casts You would deal merely 3-4k more dmg. Regular HoT is capable to outheal that. Puryfying light was capable to deal around 10k dmg with single explosion with properly aligned combo and now it deals like 3-4k so that 6k dmg loss in single second of the burst is a noticable difference.

Problem with giving templar high burst damage back is the fact that in group play templar is doing really decent job with javelin, beam and option to support allies with heals and purge.

So where do you think Templars get their burst damage from? I already mentioned that it's not just Jabs that lacks pressure, it's the entire offensive kit, including Jabs. Somehow you ended up agreeing with me after constantly ranting about how I was wrong. You just want to argue to argue.

Before backlash dmg was nerfed templar burst dmg was coming from combining ulti, preferably crescent sweep with a final explosion of puryfying light. Even with changed jabs, puryfying light was still capable to reach high values allowing templar to do really well. Now with lower dmg of that ability templar is not having class source of non ultimate high burst dmg. Templar is actually the only class atm with that issue.

So yeah I still don't agree with You when You are saying , quote "'Templar lost its seat in the top tier classes when Jabs was gutted. They can buff all its other skills as much as they want, but the class will remain trash unless Jabs gets a buff.' Templar was still very strong after jabs were changed. In update 35 templar was still among top tier classes which basically disproves Your claim that class remains trash unless jabs get a buff. One buff to the backlash scaling and templar would be among top again without any other changes. But developer seems to be hesitant with that buff considering how well templars can now perform in a group enviroment.

El_Borracho

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

You bring up some decent points, but this one I have an issue with. Templars' ultimate has always been outshined by the one skill you omitted: Radiant Oppression/Radiant Glory. Do you really need an ultimate on the level with Corrosive Armor to go with Radiant? It kicks out 480-500% more damage at 50% health, is ranged, and doesn't really cost that much, especially compared to something like Fossilize, and puts out way more damage than Impale for almost the same cost.

There are better executes: Whirling Blades and Executioner. They cannot be interrupted and the damage is instant, not a DoT. Some builds don't even need an execute (NBs, Wardens, Necros, DKs).

Disagree. Whirling Blades costs more and you have to be in melee range for it to be effective. Execute is the same cost, but both can be roll dodged out of. And the best way to defend against both is with something like Fossilize. The range on RO is much further away, its cheaper, and it is obviously spammable given the numbers of people running it instead of Whirling Blades or Execute. Sure you can interrupt it if you are running an interrupt or are in melee range. But anyone who knows how to play Templar isn't using RO when right up on a target.

My point wasn't to compare executes, it was to point out that RO has always been stronger than the Templar's ultimate because RO is a powerful execute. If you were to couple it with Corrosive Armor, or even something like the Colossus, that would be insane. Especially since both the DK and Necro do NOT have an execute, let alone an execute on the level of RO. Comparing Templar ultimates to DK ultimates is pointless as the balance in class skills is global, not who has the better ultimate.

I thought this was a class skill comparison. But if you want to expand it into all skills, you answered your own question. Run Dawnbreaker or Ice Comet for an ultimate instead of Nova or Sweep.

IDK if you haven't been in Cyrodiil, but you can ask anyone how many times they've seen Spin in their death recap. Spin kills more people, it doesn't matter if it costs more. It's not a spammable, you cast it once or twice and that's it. I AM talking about class skills, hence why I am pointing out that the beam isn't the best in the game. In order to prove that it isn't, I must compare it to other skills. It's really that simple. With your logic, it would be like insinuating that D Swing is the best spammable because it hits hard. D Swing is one of the hardest skills to land, making other spammables considerably better.

D Swing. Kind of like arguing Mages Wrath is a better execute than RO.

DK doesn't have a class execute but instead has great class ultimates versus Templar which does have a class execute and a meh ultimate. Until they nerfed Nightblades to the ground, that was the only class that had both a great ultimate and a great class execute. You might think the beam is not the best class execute, but it is. What is the competition? Mages Wrath? LOL. Incap? Not for a while now. But that's it for that list. Because there are no other class executes out there. As all of the other executes are skills based and are available to all classes.

From that list, its pretty clear that the devs don't want that combo anymore as both Nightblade and Templar also have meh ultimates. So to complain about Templars "only" having Jesus Beam and not an ultimate like Corrosive Armor to go with it is pretty odd, seeing as no class has that combo. Run Whirling Blades with Dawnbreaker.

I stopped reading after you said NBs were nerfed to the ground. That is just blasphemous for anyone to say. NBs and DKs are the top classes right now, Wardens are only on top due to their defensive capabilities.

I wonder what you would have thought of the stamblades when Morrowind dropped. Before stealth, incap, impale, reaper's mark, cripple, and ambush were repeatedly nerfed. Back when the original version of Ravager was blowing players up in PVP and PVE. The last time one class had both a strong execute and a strong ultimate.

You know, that time where the thought of running a DK in PVP was laughed at. Was about 2 years before Templars were one of the best builds in PVP and PVE. Wait a second, its almost as if these things are cyclical.

Nah, after all DK is strong now, must have been strong forever.