Templar setbacks in PvP

OnGodiDoDis

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

1) Mobility: They lack a class source of Major Expedition. Hasty Prayer provides Minor Expedition only. Nobody is going to slot two sources of speed. Nobody is wasting cooldowns and resources on two speed skills. We only go for Major Expedition.
2) Pressure: Jabs is easy to evade mainly due to its reliance on snaring its targets. The broad availability of snare removal/immunity in PvP zones makes this effect utterly useless. It's easy to run circles around someone using Jabs even with the camera sensitivity set to max. This is because skills like the Warden wings and Race Against Time provide both snare immunity and Major Expedition.
3) Buffs: Some skills have some odd buffs. Jabs has Minor Protection attached to it when it should be attached to a defensive skill. We can't use Jabs when we're on the backbar healing, hence we miss out on the Minor Protection. That's why most people just backbar Temporal Guard which takes up a slot for a healing ulti. Perhaps an offensive buff or effect would be better on Jabs? We also don't have a class source for Major Sorcery/Brutality. DKs have Major and Minor Brutality, why can't we have Major and Minor Sorcery?
4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

In the patch notes, the devs mentioned that they wanted to purposefully give Templars some weakness in PvP. I don't see any weaknesses in NBs or DKs. Those two classes have excellent single-target and AoE potential. Wardens just pull up with 40k HP and still one-piece people. I don't understand the logic behind intentionally debilitating an already underperfoming class.
Discuss.

mmtaniac

Templar have many problems ,i hate how templar viability is dictated by enemy skill. The better player are the worse templar feel i high end fights in pvp.

On other classes i feel much better and confident and skills sometimes feel more reliable. Ok templar is main and have giant confidence but still feel lacking in almost every departament ,especially damage. Healing is acceptable and strong but class still lack selfish burst healing ability.

Few passives need changes Prism and Illumate should be one. In that free slot they can put passive effect from radiant aura ability 3regen minors that activate after casting dawn's wrath ability. This way we have that free slot for Selfish burst heal with magicka and stamina cost one could be with maximum health scaling second with weapon spell damage scale.

Our class ultimates is joke just compare it to DK ultimates. We have usless ultimates but DK ones are most usefull and powerfull ever in every content in game. Standard is better than our nova , they are 90% similiar but standard is still better ultimate. Maybe because better debuff or something else. Warmth passive make much to make this ultimate shine too.
Nova should have two morphs one should be channel cast Meteor ability with giant burst damage and debuff.
Second should be identical to current options but with few balancing changes. Game changed so this thing need changes too.

Vaqual

Don't get me wrong, I am not playing enough templar to be an expert and I believe some tweaks might be in order, but I disagree with some of the things you said. Trying to homogenize class kits by providing identical buffs in an equally convenient manner to all classes will just narrow down the diversity of (effective) builds further.

The unequal availability of buffs/debuffs only becomes an issue if everyone is trying to play the same build/kit on different classes. There will always be a meta or overperforming sets/CPs and some classes will naturally make more of those than others. Just providing all buffs to everyone wouldn't make the game any more interesting. I get that it can feel unfair and I genuinely think that some classes have more overloaded abilities compared to others when comparing them to the solo dueling/1vX meta, but that is because certain attributes are weighted more heavily in specific scenarios.

There are enough sets to capitalize on the strengths of each class. Templar has good tools to stand his ground, he isn't inherently balanced around high speed. You have gear options to increase your speed, where other classes might have to sacrifice room for healing/purge gear. Sorry for the trivial example, but I hope it is clear what I mean.

Regarding the Ultimates: A lot of ultimates are not viable for every scenario. Of course a ground dot with synergy is much less useful in a solo PvP scenario than e.g. a burst ultimate. There are non-class ultimates to fill the gaps.

If skills offer too little benefit per cast/for their cost, considering their passive benefits, then I think a buff is in order. This can be realized by adding effects or tweaking the numbers. But I do not think, that class skills should be adjusted to cover all buffs/debuffs.

Sotha_Sil

Pressure is a great issue I have with templars too : all classes do it better (apart from necro maybe ?)

Ultimates : I never use sweep. I find it dealing low damage and very hard to use right. I think the healing ultimate is great for group play but it takes up a slot that could be used for temporal guard as you said so.... As offensive ultimate, I tried meteor and soul assault but that was not very satisfying. Let's not talk about nova, definitely outdated.

In order to survive, templar needs to go vampire for the ultimate and mist, which is a shame because all other classes have a better option for those 2.

TechMaybeHic

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

1) Mobility: They lack a class source of Major Expedition. Hasty Prayer provides Minor Expedition only. Nobody is going to slot two sources of speed. Nobody is wasting cooldowns and resources on two speed skills. We only go for Major Expedition.
2) Pressure: Jabs is easy to evade mainly due to its reliance on snaring its targets. The broad availability of snare removal/immunity in PvP zones makes this effect utterly useless. It's easy to run circles around someone using Jabs even with the camera sensitivity set to max. This is because skills like the Warden wings and Race Against Time provide both snare immunity and Major Expedition.
3) Buffs: Some skills have some odd buffs. Jabs has Minor Protection attached to it when it should be attached to a defensive skill. We can't use Jabs when we're on the backbar healing, hence we miss out on the Minor Protection. That's why most people just backbar Temporal Guard which takes up a slot for a healing ulti. Perhaps an offensive buff or effect would be better on Jabs? We also don't have a class source for Major Sorcery/Brutality. DKs have Major and Minor Brutality, why can't we have Major and Minor Sorcery?
4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

In the patch notes, the devs mentioned that they wanted to purposefully give Templars some weakness in PvP. I don't see any weaknesses in NBs or DKs. Those two classes have excellent single-target and AoE potential. Wardens just pull up with 40k HP and still one-piece people. I don't understand the logic behind intentionally debilitating an already underperfoming class.
Discuss.

Jabs does not itself have minor protection tied to it. It's tied to the passive Spear Wall which activates off any aedric spear ability.

Jabs DOES have major brutality/sorcery

So it's a bit odd now that they overloaded jabs then nerfed burning light making it feel awful; but at one time, jabs was the only damage thing worth slotting so it worked. Everything just kind of got trashed but Radiant Oppression. Now all the damage eggs are in that basket. So they go low with a 5% damage buff on an ability most don't slot, refuse to make that or many other abilities actually interesting to use, and otherwise give templars more healing and major protection which we don't need.

Speaking of which; toppling charge is loaded but sucks to use in lag less you want to desync. Aurora javelin for that matter; irritates melee and desyncs enemies with it's knockback

We also lack major breach, which sucks. Would be nice to have a root. Would be nice to have AOE crowd control of any kind, soft or hard

Better watch what we ask for though. They'll move minor protection to sun shield and major sorcery to the unstable core morph to make those abilities feel more offensive and defensive

Syiccal

I'm not even sure where I would fit PoL now, not used it that long

OnGodiDoDis

Vaqual wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I am not playing enough templar to be an expert and I believe some tweaks might be in order, but I disagree with some of the things you said. Trying to homogenize class kits by providing identical buffs in an equally convenient manner to all classes will just narrow down the diversity of (effective) builds further.

The unequal availability of buffs/debuffs only becomes an issue if everyone is trying to play the same build/kit on different classes. There will always be a meta or overperforming sets/CPs and some classes will naturally make more of those than others. Just providing all buffs to everyone wouldn't make the game any more interesting. I get that it can feel unfair and I genuinely think that some classes have more overloaded abilities compared to others when comparing them to the solo dueling/1vX meta, but that is because certain attributes are weighted more heavily in specific scenarios.

There are enough sets to capitalize on the strengths of each class. Templar has good tools to stand his ground, he isn't inherently balanced around high speed. You have gear options to increase your speed, where other classes might have to sacrifice room for healing/purge gear. Sorry for the trivial example, but I hope it is clear what I mean.

Regarding the Ultimates: A lot of ultimates are not viable for every scenario. Of course a ground dot with synergy is much less useful in a solo PvP scenario than e.g. a burst ultimate. There are non-class ultimates to fill the gaps.

If skills offer too little benefit per cast/for their cost, considering their passive benefits, then I think a buff is in order. This can be realized by adding effects or tweaking the numbers. But I do not think, that class skills should be adjusted to cover all buffs/debuffs.

I disagree with you. PvP is one of those environments where everyone must have equal ground. It's ok to lack something in PvE because groups are built to provide those buffs to the people that lack them. Those missing buffs are not guaranteed in PvP. Major Breach and Major Expedition, which Templars lack, are pinnacle buffs/debuffs. It wouldn't be as bad if we had Major or Minor Berserk to make up for the lack of penetration. All other classes have access to both. These are essential PvP effects and we don't have them. DKs and NBs have Major Breach, Expedition, AND Berserk. We cannot rely on World/Weapon skills to provide those edsential effects for us. They must be made available in our class toolkit.

OnGodiDoDis

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

1) Mobility: They lack a class source of Major Expedition. Hasty Prayer provides Minor Expedition only. Nobody is going to slot two sources of speed. Nobody is wasting cooldowns and resources on two speed skills. We only go for Major Expedition.
2) Pressure: Jabs is easy to evade mainly due to its reliance on snaring its targets. The broad availability of snare removal/immunity in PvP zones makes this effect utterly useless. It's easy to run circles around someone using Jabs even with the camera sensitivity set to max. This is because skills like the Warden wings and Race Against Time provide both snare immunity and Major Expedition.
3) Buffs: Some skills have some odd buffs. Jabs has Minor Protection attached to it when it should be attached to a defensive skill. We can't use Jabs when we're on the backbar healing, hence we miss out on the Minor Protection. That's why most people just backbar Temporal Guard which takes up a slot for a healing ulti. Perhaps an offensive buff or effect would be better on Jabs? We also don't have a class source for Major Sorcery/Brutality. DKs have Major and Minor Brutality, why can't we have Major and Minor Sorcery?
4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

In the patch notes, the devs mentioned that they wanted to purposefully give Templars some weakness in PvP. I don't see any weaknesses in NBs or DKs. Those two classes have excellent single-target and AoE potential. Wardens just pull up with 40k HP and still one-piece people. I don't understand the logic behind intentionally debilitating an already underperfoming class.
Discuss.

Jabs does not itself have minor protection tied to it. It's tied to the passive Spear Wall which activates off any aedric spear ability.

Jabs DOES have major brutality/sorcery

So it's a bit odd now that they overloaded jabs then nerfed burning light making it feel awful; but at one time, jabs was the only damage thing worth slotting so it worked. Everything just kind of got trashed but Radiant Oppression. Now all the damage eggs are in that basket. So they go low with a 5% damage buff on an ability most don't slot, refuse to make that or many other abilities actually interesting to use, and otherwise give templars more healing and major protection which we don't need.

Speaking of which; toppling charge is loaded but sucks to use in lag less you want to desync. Aurora javelin for that matter; irritates melee and desyncs enemies with it's knockback

We also lack major breach, which sucks. Would be nice to have a root. Would be nice to have AOE crowd control of any kind, soft or hard

Better watch what we ask for though. They'll move minor protection to sun shield and major sorcery to the unstable core morph to make those abilities feel more offensive and defensive

When I refer to Jabs I mean the base skill, not Biting Jabs. The fact that Spear Wall is under an offensive skill line and Illuminate is under a defensive skill line is nonsensical.

Elendir2am

I am far from experienced templar player, but with trivial combo:
Elemental Susceptibility (Vateshran's destro), Purifying Light, Aurora Javelin, jabs/jesus beam
I could wipe most of DKs I met. And as I read on this forum DKs are OP class

El_Borracho

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

You bring up some decent points, but this one I have an issue with. Templars' ultimate has always been outshined by the one skill you omitted: Radiant Oppression/Radiant Glory. Do you really need an ultimate on the level with Corrosive Armor to go with Radiant? It kicks out 480-500% more damage at 50% health, is ranged, and doesn't really cost that much, especially compared to something like Fossilize, and puts out way more damage than Impale for almost the same cost.

OnGodiDoDis

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

You bring up some decent points, but this one I have an issue with. Templars' ultimate has always been outshined by the one skill you omitted: Radiant Oppression/Radiant Glory. Do you really need an ultimate on the level with Corrosive Armor to go with Radiant? It kicks out 480-500% more damage at 50% health, is ranged, and doesn't really cost that much, especially compared to something like Fossilize, and puts out way more damage than Impale for almost the same cost.

There are better executes: Whirling Blades and Executioner. They cannot be interrupted and the damage is instant, not a DoT. Some builds don't even need an execute (NBs, Wardens, Necros, DKs).

Galeriano

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I am not playing enough templar to be an expert and I believe some tweaks might be in order, but I disagree with some of the things you said. Trying to homogenize class kits by providing identical buffs in an equally convenient manner to all classes will just narrow down the diversity of (effective) builds further.

The unequal availability of buffs/debuffs only becomes an issue if everyone is trying to play the same build/kit on different classes. There will always be a meta or overperforming sets/CPs and some classes will naturally make more of those than others. Just providing all buffs to everyone wouldn't make the game any more interesting. I get that it can feel unfair and I genuinely think that some classes have more overloaded abilities compared to others when comparing them to the solo dueling/1vX meta, but that is because certain attributes are weighted more heavily in specific scenarios.

There are enough sets to capitalize on the strengths of each class. Templar has good tools to stand his ground, he isn't inherently balanced around high speed. You have gear options to increase your speed, where other classes might have to sacrifice room for healing/purge gear. Sorry for the trivial example, but I hope it is clear what I mean.

Regarding the Ultimates: A lot of ultimates are not viable for every scenario. Of course a ground dot with synergy is much less useful in a solo PvP scenario than e.g. a burst ultimate. There are non-class ultimates to fill the gaps.

If skills offer too little benefit per cast/for their cost, considering their passive benefits, then I think a buff is in order. This can be realized by adding effects or tweaking the numbers. But I do not think, that class skills should be adjusted to cover all buffs/debuffs.

I disagree with you. PvP is one of those environments where everyone must have equal ground. It's ok to lack something in PvE because groups are built to provide those buffs to the people that lack them. Those missing buffs are not guaranteed in PvP. Major Breach and Major Expedition, which Templars lack, are pinnacle buffs/debuffs. It wouldn't be as bad if we had Major or Minor Berserk to make up for the lack of penetration. All other classes have access to both. These are essential PvP effects and we don't have them. DKs and NBs have Major Breach, Expedition, AND Berserk. We cannot rely on World/Weapon skills to provide those edsential effects for us. They must be made available in our class toolkit.

No in PvP everyone doesn't need equall ground. Each class have diferent power fantasy behind it and certain features are on place to compensate for lack of something. For example You may complain templar kit lacks some major/minor buffs and debuffs but every other class also lacks execute that could be comparable to the one templar have. And certain setups needs to look for execute outside of class kit or to play without it. Same goes for specific buffs and templar. You will have to look for them outside of class kit. As for nb and DK I wouldn't really call them out for having acces to major berserk. Abilities that provides it are rarely used in PvP and major berserk provided by them is either too short to count or too situational. Pretty much the same goes for DK's acces to major expedition, if anything You will find DK using race against time rather than chains to get that buff. Yes You can rely on skills from outside of class kit to provide some major buffs and debuffs. Literally every class does that.

The only thing that templar lacks right now is a burst potential and it wasn't that long ago when templar had it and was able to completly demolish people with his combo. Next patch templar is getting some damage buffs including buff to his burst and mara's balm will recive heavy nerf so we will see way more setups that will be applying heavy debuffs to enemies like DoT based stamsorcs so templar will get passively stronger in enviroment like that due to having a class purge.

At the end of the day templar right now is pretty much a prisoner of two abilities a radiant destruction and javelin. These two are really strong right now, borderline overperforming and giving templar too much dmg potential with these two abilities untouched is something ZoS is really hesitant to do.

Galeriano

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

You bring up some decent points, but this one I have an issue with. Templars' ultimate has always been outshined by the one skill you omitted: Radiant Oppression/Radiant Glory. Do you really need an ultimate on the level with Corrosive Armor to go with Radiant? It kicks out 480-500% more damage at 50% health, is ranged, and doesn't really cost that much, especially compared to something like Fossilize, and puts out way more damage than Impale for almost the same cost.

There are better executes: Whirling Blades and Executioner. They cannot be interrupted and the damage is instant, not a DoT. Some builds don't even need an execute (NBs, Wardens, Necros, DKs).

What? Radiant opression is hands down the best execute in the game leaving every other execute far behind. Being interruptable is the only thing that still keeps it in the mortal realm because without it this ability would be godly overperforming. Seriously saying that there are other better executes really makes Your credibility to drop down drastically.

It's not that other classes don't need an execute it's just that they need to adapt their playstyles to not running with it due to many different reasons. Belive me if skill like radiant destruction would be universally available for every class from some non class skill tree than almost everyone would be running with it.

OnGodiDoDis

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

You bring up some decent points, but this one I have an issue with. Templars' ultimate has always been outshined by the one skill you omitted: Radiant Oppression/Radiant Glory. Do you really need an ultimate on the level with Corrosive Armor to go with Radiant? It kicks out 480-500% more damage at 50% health, is ranged, and doesn't really cost that much, especially compared to something like Fossilize, and puts out way more damage than Impale for almost the same cost.

There are better executes: Whirling Blades and Executioner. They cannot be interrupted and the damage is instant, not a DoT. Some builds don't even need an execute (NBs, Wardens, Necros, DKs).

What? Radiant opression is hands down the best execute in the game leaving every other execute far behind. Being interruptable is the only thing that still keeps it in the mortal realm because without it this ability would be godly overperforming. Seriously saying that there are other better executes really makes Your credibility to drop down drastically.

It's not that other classes don't need an execute it's just that they need to adapt their playstyles to not running with it due to many different reasons. Belive me if skill like radiant destruction would be universally available for every class from some non class skill tree than almost everyone would be running with it.

I refute your statement. Please provide evidence that the beam is the best execute, other than being interruptable. I will tell you why others are better. Mage's Wrath automatically triggers when the target is at 25% HP, letting you focus on finishing off the enemy instead of wasting a global cooldown. Executioner deals more damage in the same amount of time as the beam because the latter has a duration of 1.8 seconds. Executioner can be cast twice (with additional light attacks) in the same time frame, resulting in more damage. Do I even need to talk about Spin? It's an AoE execute. What beats an AoE execute?

OnGodiDoDis

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I am not playing enough templar to be an expert and I believe some tweaks might be in order, but I disagree with some of the things you said. Trying to homogenize class kits by providing identical buffs in an equally convenient manner to all classes will just narrow down the diversity of (effective) builds further.

The unequal availability of buffs/debuffs only becomes an issue if everyone is trying to play the same build/kit on different classes. There will always be a meta or overperforming sets/CPs and some classes will naturally make more of those than others. Just providing all buffs to everyone wouldn't make the game any more interesting. I get that it can feel unfair and I genuinely think that some classes have more overloaded abilities compared to others when comparing them to the solo dueling/1vX meta, but that is because certain attributes are weighted more heavily in specific scenarios.

There are enough sets to capitalize on the strengths of each class. Templar has good tools to stand his ground, he isn't inherently balanced around high speed. You have gear options to increase your speed, where other classes might have to sacrifice room for healing/purge gear. Sorry for the trivial example, but I hope it is clear what I mean.

Regarding the Ultimates: A lot of ultimates are not viable for every scenario. Of course a ground dot with synergy is much less useful in a solo PvP scenario than e.g. a burst ultimate. There are non-class ultimates to fill the gaps.

If skills offer too little benefit per cast/for their cost, considering their passive benefits, then I think a buff is in order. This can be realized by adding effects or tweaking the numbers. But I do not think, that class skills should be adjusted to cover all buffs/debuffs.

I disagree with you. PvP is one of those environments where everyone must have equal ground. It's ok to lack something in PvE because groups are built to provide those buffs to the people that lack them. Those missing buffs are not guaranteed in PvP. Major Breach and Major Expedition, which Templars lack, are pinnacle buffs/debuffs. It wouldn't be as bad if we had Major or Minor Berserk to make up for the lack of penetration. All other classes have access to both. These are essential PvP effects and we don't have them. DKs and NBs have Major Breach, Expedition, AND Berserk. We cannot rely on World/Weapon skills to provide those edsential effects for us. They must be made available in our class toolkit.

No in PvP everyone doesn't need equall ground. Each class have diferent power fantasy behind it and certain features are on place to compensate for lack of something. For example You may complain templar kit lacks some major/minor buffs and debuffs but every other class also lacks execute that could be comparable to the one templar have. And certain setups needs to look for execute outside of class kit or to play without it. Same goes for specific buffs and templar. You will have to look for them outside of class kit. As for nb and DK I wouldn't really call them out for having acces to major berserk. Abilities that provides it are rarely used in PvP and major berserk provided by them is either too short to count or too situational. Pretty much the same goes for DK's acces to major expedition, if anything You will find DK using race against time rather than chains to get that buff. Yes You can rely on skills from outside of class kit to provide some major buffs and debuffs. Literally every class does that.

The only thing that templar lacks right now is a burst potential and it wasn't that long ago when templar had it and was able to completly demolish people with his combo. Next patch templar is getting some damage buffs including buff to his burst and mara's balm will recive heavy nerf so we will see way more setups that will be applying heavy debuffs to enemies like DoT based stamsorcs so templar will get passively stronger in enviroment like that due to having a class purge.

At the end of the day templar right now is pretty much a prisoner of two abilities a radiant destruction and javelin. These two are really strong right now, borderline overperforming and giving templar too much dmg potential with these two abilities untouched is something ZoS is really hesitant to do.

It's true about the Major Berserk. Fortunately those buffs aren't essential. They won't get you killed if your class lacks them. The essential ones keep you alive and help you in combat, hence why everyone has Major Resolve. The bare minimum should include easy and practical access to Major Expedition and Brutality/Sorcery. Since Templars lack a reliable source of Major Brutality/Sorcery, they have to rely on other skills or potions to aquire them. This takes up valuable slots that could be put to better use, especially now that we have to make room for Solar Barrage. Not many people are Alchemists. We have to rely on Alliance pots to get the Sorcery/Brutality, thus putting us at a disadvantage against people that use better pots like tri pots. This goes for Sorcs as well. All other buffs can be sprinkled around to make each class unique, but the baseline should be speed, armor, and damage.

Turtle_Bot

The main issue is the distribution of buff/debuff access between the classes.

It would be much better to have all classes be strong at something and weak at something else as long as all classes share this balance.

Currently though, this balancing factor is not shared equally between the 6 classes.
- DK has no weaknesses
- NB has no weaknesses in the hands of good players, has defense issues in the hands of average players
- Warden has some minor weaknesses, but nothing it can't overcome with the right build
whereas
- Sorcs lack in defensive power (outside of wearing Mara's Balm and relying on streak to run away)
- Plars lack in offensive power (outside of beam)
- Cros are lacking in offense (although most of this is likely due to needing to find a new playstyle, after bombing got removed, which would be helped if zos would give the class an intended direction through changes to the class kit).

In terms of buff access, the 4 standard major buffs/debuffs should be available to all classes equally. Those being, major brutality/sorcery, major prophecy/savagery, major resolve and major breach. Outside of those 4 standard buffs/debuffs, the other buffs/debuffs should be distributed between the classes equally to go with each classes inherent playstyle.
- DK, a tanky brawler, give it protection, courage and mending, but not berserk, evasion, expedition or force
- NB a slippery glass cannon high burst, give it expedition, evasion and force, but not protection, courage, berserk or mending
- Plar a tanky healer, give it courage, mending and protection, but not force, evasion, expedition or berserk
- Sorc a mobile mage DD with shields, give it expedition, force and protection but not evasion, mending, courage or berserk

These are only hypothetical examples and distribution would need to be much better balanced than what I've mentioned here, but this is the idea, each class has its strengths and weaknesses and those are added onto and indicated via their buff and debuff access that reflect as much.
But this also means that the buffs and debuffs are distributed much more evenly across the classes instead of the current 2-3 classes having everything and more and the other 3 are lucky to have most (not even all) of the standard 4 buffs/debuffs without resorting to out of class skills, sets or potions.

El_Borracho

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

You bring up some decent points, but this one I have an issue with. Templars' ultimate has always been outshined by the one skill you omitted: Radiant Oppression/Radiant Glory. Do you really need an ultimate on the level with Corrosive Armor to go with Radiant? It kicks out 480-500% more damage at 50% health, is ranged, and doesn't really cost that much, especially compared to something like Fossilize, and puts out way more damage than Impale for almost the same cost.

There are better executes: Whirling Blades and Executioner. They cannot be interrupted and the damage is instant, not a DoT. Some builds don't even need an execute (NBs, Wardens, Necros, DKs).

Disagree. Whirling Blades costs more and you have to be in melee range for it to be effective. Execute is the same cost, but both can be roll dodged out of. And the best way to defend against both is with something like Fossilize. The range on RO is much further away, its cheaper, and it is obviously spammable given the numbers of people running it instead of Whirling Blades or Execute. Sure you can interrupt it if you are running an interrupt or are in melee range. But anyone who knows how to play Templar isn't using RO when right up on a target.

My point wasn't to compare executes, it was to point out that RO has always been stronger than the Templar's ultimate because RO is a powerful execute. If you were to couple it with Corrosive Armor, or even something like the Colossus, that would be insane. Especially since both the DK and Necro do NOT have an execute, let alone an execute on the level of RO. Comparing Templar ultimates to DK ultimates is pointless as the balance in class skills is global, not who has the better ultimate.

I thought this was a class skill comparison. But if you want to expand it into all skills, you answered your own question. Run Dawnbreaker or Ice Comet for an ultimate instead of Nova or Sweep.

SandandStars

I'm not a templar main, but I will say the DRAMATIC nerfs to Templar that moved it from top tier with DK to mid/bottom with Magsorc, are difficult to understand (U35, etc).

I really don't see how or why any class "adjustments" should be so extreme. I know this has no basis in evidence, but it "feels" like someone really didn't like getting run over by templars in PVP, and took the hammer to them with relish.

Galeriano

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

You bring up some decent points, but this one I have an issue with. Templars' ultimate has always been outshined by the one skill you omitted: Radiant Oppression/Radiant Glory. Do you really need an ultimate on the level with Corrosive Armor to go with Radiant? It kicks out 480-500% more damage at 50% health, is ranged, and doesn't really cost that much, especially compared to something like Fossilize, and puts out way more damage than Impale for almost the same cost.

There are better executes: Whirling Blades and Executioner. They cannot be interrupted and the damage is instant, not a DoT. Some builds don't even need an execute (NBs, Wardens, Necros, DKs).

What? Radiant opression is hands down the best execute in the game leaving every other execute far behind. Being interruptable is the only thing that still keeps it in the mortal realm because without it this ability would be godly overperforming. Seriously saying that there are other better executes really makes Your credibility to drop down drastically.

It's not that other classes don't need an execute it's just that they need to adapt their playstyles to not running with it due to many different reasons. Belive me if skill like radiant destruction would be universally available for every class from some non class skill tree than almost everyone would be running with it.

I refute your statement. Please provide evidence that the beam is the best execute, other than being interruptable. I will tell you why others are better. Mage's Wrath automatically triggers when the target is at 25% HP, letting you focus on finishing off the enemy instead of wasting a global cooldown. Executioner deals more damage in the same amount of time as the beam because the latter has a duration of 1.8 seconds. Executioner can be cast twice (with additional light attacks) in the same time frame, resulting in more damage. Do I even need to talk about Spin? It's an AoE execute. What beats an AoE execute?

Mage's wrath triggers when enemy is at 20% and is dodgable. Many sorcs don't even use it because when enemy is below 20% HP regular spammable will do the same and their burst combo these days is too easy to avoid to make great use of mages wrath delayed component. 4 seconds is also not enough time for sorc to drop someones health under 20% so that delayed burst option this ability was once good at now is pretty much gone. Applying mages wrath early is basically a dead giveaway of what You are planning to do and one dodge roll can counter that. It's also pretty slow ability, it takes more time than beam inbetween activation and aplication.

Executioner is 5 meters range and dodgable. Its damage also do not apply instantly but after a split of second when animation physically hits the target so if enemy is moving there is a chance that You will be starting the animation and it will be interrupted with the message "target out of range". It will happen a lot in real fights due to how small range executioner have. Thankfully improvements to meele range abilities in new patch can make that issue less irritating. Executioner is not dealing more damage than templars execute. If You compare tooltips of both You will notice that beam have around 3 times higher tooltip. It's not a coincidence because beam have 3 ticks so basically every tick of beam hits for similar amount as executioner but executioner max scaling is up to 400% when templars execute depends of morph will reach up to 480-500%. Yes You can use 2x light attack+executioner (if enemy allows You to) within the same time frame as 1x light attack+beam but since beam have 3 ticks each hitting for more than executioner math here is pretty simple and it's templar beam that wins within 2 seconds time fram. And it wins even more withing 1 second time frame because it takes slighlty above 1 second for beam to deal 2 ticks of damage so within the same time frame You will use 1x executioner You will hit enemy withj 2 ticks of beam each hitting for the same or evem more than executioner. First tick of beam damage is also hitting around 0,1 sec earlier than dmg from executioner after pressing the button.

So templars execute is basically undodgable 36 meters range execute that hits like a truck when compared to other execute abilities.

Galeriano

SandandStars wrote: »

I'm not a templar main, but I will say the DRAMATIC nerfs to Templar that moved it from top tier with DK to mid/bottom with Magsorc, are difficult to understand (U35, etc).

I really don't see how or why any class "adjustments" should be so extreme. I know this has no basis in evidence, but it "feels" like someone really didn't like getting run over by templars in PVP, and took the hammer to them with relish.

It was update 36 that really hit templar because ZoS drastically lowered backlash scaling in it. Up to that point templar could perform some nice nukes on people.

TechMaybeHic

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

You bring up some decent points, but this one I have an issue with. Templars' ultimate has always been outshined by the one skill you omitted: Radiant Oppression/Radiant Glory. Do you really need an ultimate on the level with Corrosive Armor to go with Radiant? It kicks out 480-500% more damage at 50% health, is ranged, and doesn't really cost that much, especially compared to something like Fossilize, and puts out way more damage than Impale for almost the same cost.

There are better executes: Whirling Blades and Executioner. They cannot be interrupted and the damage is instant, not a DoT. Some builds don't even need an execute (NBs, Wardens, Necros, DKs).

What? Radiant opression is hands down the best execute in the game leaving every other execute far behind. Being interruptable is the only thing that still keeps it in the mortal realm because without it this ability would be godly overperforming. Seriously saying that there are other better executes really makes Your credibility to drop down drastically.

It's not that other classes don't need an execute it's just that they need to adapt their playstyles to not running with it due to many different reasons. Belive me if skill like radiant destruction would be universally available for every class from some non class skill tree than almost everyone would be running with it.

I refute your statement. Please provide evidence that the beam is the best execute, other than being interruptable. I will tell you why others are better. Mage's Wrath automatically triggers when the target is at 25% HP, letting you focus on finishing off the enemy instead of wasting a global cooldown. Executioner deals more damage in the same amount of time as the beam because the latter has a duration of 1.8 seconds. Executioner can be cast twice (with additional light attacks) in the same time frame, resulting in more damage. Do I even need to talk about Spin? It's an AoE execute. What beats an AoE execute?

Mage's wrath triggers when enemy is at 20% and is dodgable. Many sorcs don't even use it because when enemy is below 20% HP regular spammable will do the same and their burst combo these days is too easy to avoid to make great use of mages wrath delayed component. 4 seconds is also not enough time for sorc to drop someones health under 20% so that delayed burst option this ability was once good at now is pretty much gone. Applying mages wrath early is basically a dead giveaway of what You are planning to do and one dodge roll can counter that. It's also pretty slow ability, it takes more time than beam inbetween activation and aplication.

Executioner is 5 meters range and dodgable. Its damage also do not apply instantly but after a split of second when animation physically hits the target so if enemy is moving there is a chance that You will be starting the animation and it will be interrupted with the message "target out of range". It will happen a lot in real fights due to how small range executioner have. Thankfully improvements to meele range abilities in new patch can make that issue less irritating. Executioner is not dealing more damage than templars execute. If You compare tooltips of both You will notice that beam have around 3 times higher tooltip. It's not a coincidence because beam have 3 ticks so basically every tick of beam hits for similar amount as executioner but executioner max scaling is up to 400% when templars execute depends of morph will reach up to 480-500%. Yes You can use 2x light attack+executioner (if enemy allows You to) within the same time frame as 1x light attack+beam but since beam have 3 ticks each hitting for more than executioner math here is pretty simple and it's templar beam that wins within 2 seconds time fram. And it wins even more withing 1 second time frame because it takes slighlty above 1 second for beam to deal 2 ticks of damage so within the same time frame You will use 1x executioner You will hit enemy withj 2 ticks of beam each hitting for the same or evem more than executioner. First tick of beam damage is also hitting around 0,1 sec earlier than dmg from executioner after pressing the button.

So templars execute is basically undodgable 36 meters range execute that hits like a truck when compared to other execute abilities.

I don't get why mages wrath wouldn't be used. It literally steels kills from ROwith ease because if the 1.8 second channel time assuming you are in group play. Yes, RO is strong but it gets outweighed by the ability to preload and supplement the burst and AOE of mages wrath. Now, once templar starts having their delayed burst amount to anything again; it's usefulness goes back up

Anyway; here we are arguing about the only 2 classes they've specifically said should have everything and ignoring the 3 that literally do or can be covered by weapon skills. And ignoring the one that doesn't even register being acknowledged in Necro. I mean the original argument was templar should not have a corrosive armor; when really no class should have the current corrosive armor. If that alone was gone; I think every other class would feel much better

Beffagorn

You can get pretty much everything you need from skill lines or sets to be succesful on Templar, the class has a very well rounded kit and has access to a wide range of builds that are competitive. Although I do partially agree that the damage ultimates are rather lackluster, I would like to see Sweep reworked into a single target ultimate or a targeted AoE like Dk's leap. Anything as long as it's not a cone ability, really.

What hurts me the most when playing my templar, however, is the lack of viable slows. Living Dark doesn't really cut it most of the time in my experience and landing jabs with the usual desync can get tricky at times.

Also, lol at anyone saying Radiant Oppression is bad. Literally the best execute in the entire game, anyone saying otherwise is just going on about the grass being greener on the other side.

OnGodiDoDis

"So templars execute is basically undodgable 36 meters range execute that hits like a truck when compared to other execute abilities."

It can be LoS'd. It has weaknesses. But anyway, it would be better if we didn't have to equip it in the first place, if our offensive toolkit allowed us to kill people without an execute.

Galeriano

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I am not playing enough templar to be an expert and I believe some tweaks might be in order, but I disagree with some of the things you said. Trying to homogenize class kits by providing identical buffs in an equally convenient manner to all classes will just narrow down the diversity of (effective) builds further.

The unequal availability of buffs/debuffs only becomes an issue if everyone is trying to play the same build/kit on different classes. There will always be a meta or overperforming sets/CPs and some classes will naturally make more of those than others. Just providing all buffs to everyone wouldn't make the game any more interesting. I get that it can feel unfair and I genuinely think that some classes have more overloaded abilities compared to others when comparing them to the solo dueling/1vX meta, but that is because certain attributes are weighted more heavily in specific scenarios.

There are enough sets to capitalize on the strengths of each class. Templar has good tools to stand his ground, he isn't inherently balanced around high speed. You have gear options to increase your speed, where other classes might have to sacrifice room for healing/purge gear. Sorry for the trivial example, but I hope it is clear what I mean.

Regarding the Ultimates: A lot of ultimates are not viable for every scenario. Of course a ground dot with synergy is much less useful in a solo PvP scenario than e.g. a burst ultimate. There are non-class ultimates to fill the gaps.

If skills offer too little benefit per cast/for their cost, considering their passive benefits, then I think a buff is in order. This can be realized by adding effects or tweaking the numbers. But I do not think, that class skills should be adjusted to cover all buffs/debuffs.

I disagree with you. PvP is one of those environments where everyone must have equal ground. It's ok to lack something in PvE because groups are built to provide those buffs to the people that lack them. Those missing buffs are not guaranteed in PvP. Major Breach and Major Expedition, which Templars lack, are pinnacle buffs/debuffs. It wouldn't be as bad if we had Major or Minor Berserk to make up for the lack of penetration. All other classes have access to both. These are essential PvP effects and we don't have them. DKs and NBs have Major Breach, Expedition, AND Berserk. We cannot rely on World/Weapon skills to provide those edsential effects for us. They must be made available in our class toolkit.

No in PvP everyone doesn't need equall ground. Each class have diferent power fantasy behind it and certain features are on place to compensate for lack of something. For example You may complain templar kit lacks some major/minor buffs and debuffs but every other class also lacks execute that could be comparable to the one templar have. And certain setups needs to look for execute outside of class kit or to play without it. Same goes for specific buffs and templar. You will have to look for them outside of class kit. As for nb and DK I wouldn't really call them out for having acces to major berserk. Abilities that provides it are rarely used in PvP and major berserk provided by them is either too short to count or too situational. Pretty much the same goes for DK's acces to major expedition, if anything You will find DK using race against time rather than chains to get that buff. Yes You can rely on skills from outside of class kit to provide some major buffs and debuffs. Literally every class does that.

The only thing that templar lacks right now is a burst potential and it wasn't that long ago when templar had it and was able to completly demolish people with his combo. Next patch templar is getting some damage buffs including buff to his burst and mara's balm will recive heavy nerf so we will see way more setups that will be applying heavy debuffs to enemies like DoT based stamsorcs so templar will get passively stronger in enviroment like that due to having a class purge.

At the end of the day templar right now is pretty much a prisoner of two abilities a radiant destruction and javelin. These two are really strong right now, borderline overperforming and giving templar too much dmg potential with these two abilities untouched is something ZoS is really hesitant to do.

It's true about the Major Berserk. Fortunately those buffs aren't essential. They won't get you killed if your class lacks them. The essential ones keep you alive and help you in combat, hence why everyone has Major Resolve. The bare minimum should include easy and practical access to Major Expedition and Brutality/Sorcery. Since Templars lack a reliable source of Major Brutality/Sorcery, they have to rely on other skills or potions to aquire them. This takes up valuable slots that could be put to better use, especially now that we have to make room for Solar Barrage. Not many people are Alchemists. We have to rely on Alliance pots to get the Sorcery/Brutality, thus putting us at a disadvantage against people that use better pots like tri pots. This goes for Sorcs as well. All other buffs can be sprinkled around to make each class unique, but the baseline should be speed, armor, and damage.

And there is no issue with the fact templar relies on surces of major brutality/sorcery from outside of class kit. Even classes that have major sorcery/brutality sometimes do this. For example You may find plenty of DKs using degeneration. Some classes choose to run with rally despite having class acces to the sorcery/brutality buff some run with race against time despite having acces to major expedition. it really doesn's matter from where You got certain buff if it works fine. There won't be a need to slot solar barrage, 5% dmg buff to class abilities really isn't a gamechanger. If it would be than slotting camo hunter would already be a hard meta for a templar. The only baseline is armor buff and it's more because of PvE than PvP.

disintegr8

Class is irrelevant in PVP when your ping is 400ms+. I could have an immortal class character and still die.

OnGodiDoDis

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This thread will focus on the areas I believe are holding back Templars from being an outstanding class.

4) Ultimates: We only have one viable class ultimate: Sweep. Nova doesn't even do anything if we're running solo. Atrocious. It's hard to time even in groups due to all the synergies. If we're solo we best hope that our allies synergize it.

You bring up some decent points, but this one I have an issue with. Templars' ultimate has always been outshined by the one skill you omitted: Radiant Oppression/Radiant Glory. Do you really need an ultimate on the level with Corrosive Armor to go with Radiant? It kicks out 480-500% more damage at 50% health, is ranged, and doesn't really cost that much, especially compared to something like Fossilize, and puts out way more damage than Impale for almost the same cost.

There are better executes: Whirling Blades and Executioner. They cannot be interrupted and the damage is instant, not a DoT. Some builds don't even need an execute (NBs, Wardens, Necros, DKs).

Disagree. Whirling Blades costs more and you have to be in melee range for it to be effective. Execute is the same cost, but both can be roll dodged out of. And the best way to defend against both is with something like Fossilize. The range on RO is much further away, its cheaper, and it is obviously spammable given the numbers of people running it instead of Whirling Blades or Execute. Sure you can interrupt it if you are running an interrupt or are in melee range. But anyone who knows how to play Templar isn't using RO when right up on a target.

My point wasn't to compare executes, it was to point out that RO has always been stronger than the Templar's ultimate because RO is a powerful execute. If you were to couple it with Corrosive Armor, or even something like the Colossus, that would be insane. Especially since both the DK and Necro do NOT have an execute, let alone an execute on the level of RO. Comparing Templar ultimates to DK ultimates is pointless as the balance in class skills is global, not who has the better ultimate.

I thought this was a class skill comparison. But if you want to expand it into all skills, you answered your own question. Run Dawnbreaker or Ice Comet for an ultimate instead of Nova or Sweep.

IDK if you haven't been in Cyrodiil, but you can ask anyone how many times they've seen Spin in their death recap. Spin kills more people, it doesn't matter if it costs more. It's not a spammable, you cast it once or twice and that's it. I AM talking about class skills, hence why I am pointing out that the beam isn't the best in the game. In order to prove that it isn't, I must compare it to other skills. It's really that simple. With your logic, it would be like insinuating that D Swing is the best spammable because it hits hard. D Swing is one of the hardest skills to land, making other spammables considerably better.

Turtle_Bot

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't get why mages wrath wouldn't be used. It literally steels kills from ROwith ease because if the 1.8 second channel time assuming you are in group play. Yes, RO is strong but it gets outweighed by the ability to preload and supplement the burst and AOE of mages wrath. Now, once templar starts having their delayed burst amount to anything again; it's usefulness goes back up

Just want to provide some clarification as to why mages wrath is not used (from a sorc main perspective).

1. Bar space.

- This is the number 1 issue with this skill (and sorc in general). Sorcs just don't have the bar space to slot this ability without giving up something better. This is especially true because the sorcs burst combo requires lining up 4 skills already (frags/curse/overload/crushing shock or bound armaments/overload/crystal weapon/curse) and adding mages wrath is a 5th skill/GCD and if pre-cast before the combo, the 4s debuff wears off before the combo lands meaning it is a waste of resources to use it.

2. It's cleansable.

- Same issue as curse, but curse has many more upsides than wrath, most notably it can do its damage at any % of health instead of only below 20%. With sets like Mara's Balm and classes like Warden being in the meta, it's very hard (if not near impossible) to keep the mages wrath debuff on the target to proc it with how freely available cleanse is currently.

3. Far too many bugs and counters to make it viable.

- There's far too many ways to counter this skill.
- It can be dodged (for some reason, which is strange considering its supposed to be a sticky debuff execute).
- It can be blocked (block mitigation is far too high currently with how cheap and easy it is to sustain it).
- Sometimes it just completely fails to proc for no reason at all.
- The threshold to proc it is far too low, someone at 20% health is basically already dead, mages fury just steals the killing blow from the other player that was already going to get the final hit.

5. It's damage just isn't worth it

- It's damage is less than a frags proc (which like curse can deal its damage at any health %, not just below 20%).
- It's damage doesn't scale at all, so even if it does proc, sometimes it can still fail to get the kill (mostly due to undeath passive).

6. Dodge roll is too cheap

- Sorcs burst combo is very predictable and easy to avoid. When you hear/see curse being cast on you (it has a distinct sound and visual), count to 2 then hit dodge roll, this mitigates the majority of a sorcs combo (frags/overload/crushing shock/bound armaments) outside of curse, so unless you were already close to or below 20% health where casting mages wrath only would have proc'd it, the burst combo to get you into mages wrath proc range won't land and won't proc mages wrath.

You'll see people in large groups using it since the group covers utility/defense/burst/pressure, you'll also see it very commonly in low mmr BGs, since most players there don't know what they're doing, don't heal out of its range, don't dodge to avoid sorcs damage that drops them into that range, don't block to mitigate its damage, generally have much squishier builds, etc, so it becomes a very strong finisher in those situations.
But outside of those situations, it just doesn't do anything that a frags/curse proc doesn't already do better, it also makes the burst combo very clunky to use thanks to its awkward (short) timer that prevents it from being precast like an actual debuff, the current meta (mara's + warden and probably soon plar again too with the temp fix to PotL) is just not conducive for it to be a functional skill and it has too many bugs/issues/counter play that make it not worth the huge investment of a valuable bar slot that sorcerer just does not have available for it.

Hope this helps explain why mages wrath is not being used at the higher levels of play (for PvP at least).

OnGodiDoDis

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't get why mages wrath wouldn't be used. It literally steels kills from ROwith ease because if the 1.8 second channel time assuming you are in group play. Yes, RO is strong but it gets outweighed by the ability to preload and supplement the burst and AOE of mages wrath. Now, once templar starts having their delayed burst amount to anything again; it's usefulness goes back up

Just want to provide some clarification as to why mages wrath is not used (from a sorc main perspective).

1. Bar space.

- This is the number 1 issue with this skill (and sorc in general). Sorcs just don't have the bar space to slot this ability without giving up something better. This is especially true because the sorcs burst combo requires lining up 4 skills already (frags/curse/overload/crushing shock or bound armaments/overload/crystal weapon/curse) and adding mages wrath is a 5th skill/GCD and if pre-cast before the combo, the 4s debuff wears off before the combo lands meaning it is a waste of resources to use it.

2. It's cleansable.

- Same issue as curse, but curse has many more upsides than wrath, most notably it can do its damage at any % of health instead of only below 20%. With sets like Mara's Balm and classes like Warden being in the meta, it's very hard (if not near impossible) to keep the mages wrath debuff on the target to proc it with how freely available cleanse is currently.

3. Far too many bugs and counters to make it viable.

- There's far too many ways to counter this skill.
- It can be dodged (for some reason, which is strange considering its supposed to be a sticky debuff execute).
- It can be blocked (block mitigation is far too high currently with how cheap and easy it is to sustain it).
- Sometimes it just completely fails to proc for no reason at all.
- The threshold to proc it is far too low, someone at 20% health is basically already dead, mages fury just steals the killing blow from the other player that was already going to get the final hit.

5. It's damage just isn't worth it

- It's damage is less than a frags proc (which like curse can deal its damage at any health %, not just below 20%).
- It's damage doesn't scale at all, so even if it does proc, sometimes it can still fail to get the kill (mostly due to undeath passive).

6. Dodge roll is too cheap

- Sorcs burst combo is very predictable and easy to avoid. When you hear/see curse being cast on you (it has a distinct sound and visual), count to 2 then hit dodge roll, this mitigates the majority of a sorcs combo (frags/overload/crushing shock/bound armaments) outside of curse, so unless you were already close to or below 20% health where casting mages wrath only would have proc'd it, the burst combo to get you into mages wrath proc range won't land and won't proc mages wrath.

You'll see people in large groups using it since the group covers utility/defense/burst/pressure, you'll also see it very commonly in low mmr BGs, since most players there don't know what they're doing, don't heal out of its range, don't dodge to avoid sorcs damage that drops them into that range, don't block to mitigate its damage, generally have much squishier builds, etc, so it becomes a very strong finisher in those situations.
But outside of those situations, it just doesn't do anything that a frags/curse proc doesn't already do better, it also makes the burst combo very clunky to use thanks to its awkward (short) timer that prevents it from being precast like an actual debuff, the current meta (mara's + warden and probably soon plar again too with the temp fix to PotL) is just not conducive for it to be a functional skill and it has too many bugs/issues/counter play that make it not worth the huge investment of a valuable bar slot that sorcerer just does not have available for it.

Hope this helps explain why mages wrath is not being used at the higher levels of play (for PvP at least).

Agreed. It seems like the classes that are struggling the most right now (Sorc, Templar) share similar aspects: they both have purgeable effects. Essential effects that are needed to get a kill, mind you. But that raises the question; why isn't DK struggling? Their offensive toolkit consists of DoTs. The answer is that their spammable is reliable and gets the job done. Sorcs and Templars don't have good spammables. Sorc doesn't even have a class spammable. Templar lost its seat in the top tier classes when Jabs was gutted. They can buff all its other skills as much as they want, but the class will remain trash unless Jabs gets a buff. The top classes right now don't even need an execute.

Minno

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't get why mages wrath wouldn't be used. It literally steels kills from ROwith ease because if the 1.8 second channel time assuming you are in group play. Yes, RO is strong but it gets outweighed by the ability to preload and supplement the burst and AOE of mages wrath. Now, once templar starts having their delayed burst amount to anything again; it's usefulness goes back up

Just want to provide some clarification as to why mages wrath is not used (from a sorc main perspective).

1. Bar space.

- This is the number 1 issue with this skill (and sorc in general). Sorcs just don't have the bar space to slot this ability without giving up something better. This is especially true because the sorcs burst combo requires lining up 4 skills already (frags/curse/overload/crushing shock or bound armaments/overload/crystal weapon/curse) and adding mages wrath is a 5th skill/GCD and if pre-cast before the combo, the 4s debuff wears off before the combo lands meaning it is a waste of resources to use it.

2. It's cleansable.

- Same issue as curse, but curse has many more upsides than wrath, most notably it can do its damage at any % of health instead of only below 20%. With sets like Mara's Balm and classes like Warden being in the meta, it's very hard (if not near impossible) to keep the mages wrath debuff on the target to proc it with how freely available cleanse is currently.

3. Far too many bugs and counters to make it viable.

- There's far too many ways to counter this skill.
- It can be dodged (for some reason, which is strange considering its supposed to be a sticky debuff execute).
- It can be blocked (block mitigation is far too high currently with how cheap and easy it is to sustain it).
- Sometimes it just completely fails to proc for no reason at all.
- The threshold to proc it is far too low, someone at 20% health is basically already dead, mages fury just steals the killing blow from the other player that was already going to get the final hit.

5. It's damage just isn't worth it

- It's damage is less than a frags proc (which like curse can deal its damage at any health %, not just below 20%).
- It's damage doesn't scale at all, so even if it does proc, sometimes it can still fail to get the kill (mostly due to undeath passive).

6. Dodge roll is too cheap

- Sorcs burst combo is very predictable and easy to avoid. When you hear/see curse being cast on you (it has a distinct sound and visual), count to 2 then hit dodge roll, this mitigates the majority of a sorcs combo (frags/overload/crushing shock/bound armaments) outside of curse, so unless you were already close to or below 20% health where casting mages wrath only would have proc'd it, the burst combo to get you into mages wrath proc range won't land and won't proc mages wrath.

You'll see people in large groups using it since the group covers utility/defense/burst/pressure, you'll also see it very commonly in low mmr BGs, since most players there don't know what they're doing, don't heal out of its range, don't dodge to avoid sorcs damage that drops them into that range, don't block to mitigate its damage, generally have much squishier builds, etc, so it becomes a very strong finisher in those situations.
But outside of those situations, it just doesn't do anything that a frags/curse proc doesn't already do better, it also makes the burst combo very clunky to use thanks to its awkward (short) timer that prevents it from being precast like an actual debuff, the current meta (mara's + warden and probably soon plar again too with the temp fix to PotL) is just not conducive for it to be a functional skill and it has too many bugs/issues/counter play that make it not worth the huge investment of a valuable bar slot that sorcerer just does not have available for it.

Hope this helps explain why mages wrath is not being used at the higher levels of play (for PvP at least).

Agreed. It seems like the classes that are struggling the most right now (Sorc, Templar) share similar aspects: they both have purgeable effects. Essential effects that are needed to get a kill, mind you. But that raises the question; why isn't DK struggling? Their offensive toolkit consists of DoTs. The answer is that their spammable is reliable and gets the job done. Sorcs and Templars don't have good spammables. Sorc doesn't even have a class spammable. Templar lost its seat in the top tier classes when Jabs was gutted. They can buff all its other skills as much as they want, but the class will remain trash unless Jabs gets a buff. The top classes right now don't even need an execute.

back in 2014 players had similar complaints too. But man what I would give to get that kit back lol. We had no spamable, aside from jabs, but jabs cc'd, we had blinding flashes and sun shield used to kill people, and our eclipse back then used to reflect ultimates.

You almost didnt need an execute back then on templar lol.

Galeriano

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't get why mages wrath wouldn't be used. It literally steels kills from ROwith ease because if the 1.8 second channel time assuming you are in group play. Yes, RO is strong but it gets outweighed by the ability to preload and supplement the burst and AOE of mages wrath. Now, once templar starts having their delayed burst amount to anything again; it's usefulness goes back up

Just want to provide some clarification as to why mages wrath is not used (from a sorc main perspective).

1. Bar space.

- This is the number 1 issue with this skill (and sorc in general). Sorcs just don't have the bar space to slot this ability without giving up something better. This is especially true because the sorcs burst combo requires lining up 4 skills already (frags/curse/overload/crushing shock or bound armaments/overload/crystal weapon/curse) and adding mages wrath is a 5th skill/GCD and if pre-cast before the combo, the 4s debuff wears off before the combo lands meaning it is a waste of resources to use it.

2. It's cleansable.

- Same issue as curse, but curse has many more upsides than wrath, most notably it can do its damage at any % of health instead of only below 20%. With sets like Mara's Balm and classes like Warden being in the meta, it's very hard (if not near impossible) to keep the mages wrath debuff on the target to proc it with how freely available cleanse is currently.

3. Far too many bugs and counters to make it viable.

- There's far too many ways to counter this skill.
- It can be dodged (for some reason, which is strange considering its supposed to be a sticky debuff execute).
- It can be blocked (block mitigation is far too high currently with how cheap and easy it is to sustain it).
- Sometimes it just completely fails to proc for no reason at all.
- The threshold to proc it is far too low, someone at 20% health is basically already dead, mages fury just steals the killing blow from the other player that was already going to get the final hit.

5. It's damage just isn't worth it

- It's damage is less than a frags proc (which like curse can deal its damage at any health %, not just below 20%).
- It's damage doesn't scale at all, so even if it does proc, sometimes it can still fail to get the kill (mostly due to undeath passive).

6. Dodge roll is too cheap

- Sorcs burst combo is very predictable and easy to avoid. When you hear/see curse being cast on you (it has a distinct sound and visual), count to 2 then hit dodge roll, this mitigates the majority of a sorcs combo (frags/overload/crushing shock/bound armaments) outside of curse, so unless you were already close to or below 20% health where casting mages wrath only would have proc'd it, the burst combo to get you into mages wrath proc range won't land and won't proc mages wrath.

You'll see people in large groups using it since the group covers utility/defense/burst/pressure, you'll also see it very commonly in low mmr BGs, since most players there don't know what they're doing, don't heal out of its range, don't dodge to avoid sorcs damage that drops them into that range, don't block to mitigate its damage, generally have much squishier builds, etc, so it becomes a very strong finisher in those situations.
But outside of those situations, it just doesn't do anything that a frags/curse proc doesn't already do better, it also makes the burst combo very clunky to use thanks to its awkward (short) timer that prevents it from being precast like an actual debuff, the current meta (mara's + warden and probably soon plar again too with the temp fix to PotL) is just not conducive for it to be a functional skill and it has too many bugs/issues/counter play that make it not worth the huge investment of a valuable bar slot that sorcerer just does not have available for it.

Hope this helps explain why mages wrath is not being used at the higher levels of play (for PvP at least).

Agreed. It seems like the classes that are struggling the most right now (Sorc, Templar) share similar aspects: they both have purgeable effects. Essential effects that are needed to get a kill, mind you. But that raises the question; why isn't DK struggling? Their offensive toolkit consists of DoTs. The answer is that their spammable is reliable and gets the job done. Sorcs and Templars don't have good spammables. Sorc doesn't even have a class spammable. Templar lost its seat in the top tier classes when Jabs was gutted. They can buff all its other skills as much as they want, but the class will remain trash unless Jabs gets a buff. The top classes right now don't even need an execute.

It's not that sorc don't need good spammable, if they would have one that would be better than non class options they would be using it. It's just since they don't have one they are usually looking for other options or they will stick with crystal weapons which is ok ability at best. Sorc never had a great class spammable and there were times when he was dominating playingfield.

Even with changed jabs templar was very strong spec not that long ago. In BGs You could nuke almost everyone out of the existance. It's just recently in update 36 when ZoS nerfed backlash dmg when templar noticed big drop of dmg effectiveness in solo play. Same as You don't always need execute on every spec to be a strong class You also don't need great class spammable to be one. Templar current kit is really not that far from being really good but I guess ZoS is hesitant to give templar strong burst option again due to the fact javelin and beam are now really strong and oppresive abilities that are almost brainlesly spammed in group PvP because of how efefctive they are.

As for DK it's not just about spammable. They had that spammable for years. What made DK strong is few things combined and many of them don't even come directly from DK specific buffs. First is the fact that now almost everyone is stage 3 vampire for undeath passive which is OP in PvP but it gives DK big dmg buff since noticable portion of his dmg is flame dmg. Than there is buffed charged trait which complements combustion passive. Than there is hybrydisation which allowed DK to create coherent toolkit and take more adventage of already mentioned combustion passive improvements. Than we have things like sea serpent coil mythic which allows DK to build more tankiness while still gettting enough dmg

Cast_El

Good! people like you keep up the "fight". I let it go. They says they want templar to be weak. They don't listen and have their own agenda so what the point?
But again: congratulations for keeping that up