PvP healing

Turtle_Bot · June 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

So my link is outdated then? Can you link me to a website that shows the correct values? I'm not trying to spread misinformation.

I've been using the online build editor for my values. Your link seems to have the same values as what I use, but I'm not sure how frequent it's updated, since I'm not familiar with it.

Here's the link to the build editor that I've been using.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor

OBJnoob · June 2023

@Turtle_Bot Are you sure you're comparing the skills the right way? You say that I'd have to cast Resolving 3 times to match the duration of Echoing being cast once-- which is true of course. But it seems to me like you failed to therefore multiply the tooltip of Resolving x3. So Resolving is 6k, which becomes 18k. And Echoing is still only 3.5k because it was only cast once. So for 3x the cost you can have 5x the healing. So if we're discussing the stamina budget as you seem to want to... Then okay, it's only about twice as powerful. But I don't think the stamina budget should really be our focus? Isn't it more about the amount of healing and how that impacts survival? I mean we're also forgetting that Resolving gives minor resolve.

So if 6 group members on solo builds all keep perfect uptime on Resolving for 15 seconds we have 18k each... Which is, uh, 108k I believe? If 6 group members on group builds cast Echoing once each they have 21k each for a total of, umm, 126k.

The stam drain on the solo builds is significantly worse but their healing is startlingly similar. If you factor in minor resolve (which equates to a pinch more "healing" by way of less damage taken,) and you remember that Echoing actually lasts 16 seconds not 15, so we go ahead and give the Resolving 1/5 more casts... The numbers are basically even at 6 people with the only difference being the additional stam cost.

And the stam cost matters-- I'm not saying it doesn't but it's the healing that is being described by some as insurmountable. And I think it's very very important to keep in mind how incredibly strong for survival Resolving is.

The strength of Resolving is, almost certainly, the handicap ZOS have decided to give solo players and very small groups. It's already in place and equals out up to 6 people, which is how many people Echoing hits. I find this state of things to be satisfactory and while I do agree that ballgroups are problematic I would not want to skew things further in favor of solo players because they already are advantaged.

As the numbers grow and grow the Echoing morph pulls further ahead. But not in some weird exponential way, just in one more stack for everybody. It would seem that ZOS doesn't want 3 people grouped on solo builds to be able to compete with 6 people on synergistic group builds. Assuming an equal skill level among all 9 players... This makes sense to me.

So with all that said I'm going to recap my overall stance once more.

It is not rare to see a solo player X 5 people. It is not rare to see a small scale group of 4 take down a group of 12 or more. Why should we have a problem with 12man ballgroups killing 30, 40, or 50 people? If you have a problem with that then you must also have a problem with the other two as well, right? So there's no need to nerf Echoing or limit stacks... Healing across the board needs to be nerfed.

ShadowProc · June 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Honestly if a group of 12 people all healing eachother can't be allowed to be super survivable then can we next talk about completely eradicating bombers from the game? It's funny we have two things running rampant in this game. We have solo players capable of blowing up 12 zerglings all at once (or straight up fighting them for that matter,) and we have huge groups of coordinated players that can't be stopped.

You see these things and you say to yourself "the group is the one over performing." Why is that even a serious topic? I'm starting to wonder if certain people know what the word balance means.

You keep defending ball groups but then you make that statement about questioning if players understand balance. No offense but your stance in multiple threads seems like you are either in a ball group or do not understand balance.

Ball groups are completely broken. There is no defense. They can't be killed 99 percent of the time. And they giggle in comms playing with one hand while stomping everyone not in a ball.

These are the facts and they are undisputed.

YandereGirlfriend · June 2023

Oh man, these walls of text make catching up on this conversation difficult.

Apologies if I missed someone's point but I'll admit that I was basically skimming the recent arguments:

1. Echoing Vigor ticks every-other second like almost all sticky HoTs these days. Which I am not sure that people are grasping since I keep seeing them talk about Echoing Vigor ticking every literal second. It ticks at HALF the rate of Resolving Vigor. So these "72 ticks per second" for Echoing really need to be cut in half to 36 if you want to talk about per second healing.

2. I'm also not sure if people understand how difficult it is to actually get these sticky HoTs up on an entire group consistently. You can't target these heals (and they can go to non-group members if anyone else from your faction is nearby - though this is more of a concern with Radiating Regen since its range is 28 meters) and they will often refresh themselves on the same players if you re-cast them. So in basically no situation will you ever actually have 12 Vigors and 12 Radiatings up on your raid (also, most raids aren't running 12 Resto Staves to begin with, so you're not even starting out from a position of having 12 Radiatings available).

3. These HoTs (particularly Radiating because it only lasts for 10 seconds [which, to be clear, means that a healer has to cast it for 40% of all GCDs just to have the chance of hitting all available group members - which it often will not) can and will fall off if you subject a raid to sustained pressure.

Just wanting to push back on some of what has been stated here. Talk about "all organized raids have 12 Vigors and 12 Radiatings ticking every second for 999,999,999 HPS" reads like misinformation intended to drive an agenda.

Marcus684 · June 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Honestly if a group of 12 people all healing eachother can't be allowed to be super survivable then can we next talk about completely eradicating bombers from the game? It's funny we have two things running rampant in this game. We have solo players capable of blowing up 12 zerglings all at once (or straight up fighting them for that matter,) and we have huge groups of coordinated players that can't be stopped.

You see these things and you say to yourself "the group is the one over performing." Why is that even a serious topic? I'm starting to wonder if certain people know what the word balance means.

Here is a classic example of a "whataboutism", a well-understood tactic used to deflect from a difficult argument. You also close your post with what could be considered gaslighting, accusing others of not knowing what balance means while defending what is clearly an unbalanced playstyle.

This discussion is about ball groups, not bombers. Maybe you should start another post about bombers, which most of us also knew to be unbalanced, and ZOS has nerfed somewhat, instead of trying to derail this one.

OBJnoob · June 2023

@Marcus684 I understand that there is a list of false arguments and perhaps I am guilty of one. Straw man argument... "Whataboutism" and all that. But please... Spell it out for me, because I haven't studied the list, and I may not be doing it on purpose.

I'm not trying to distract you from the point. But if we're talking about balance then there has to be a comparison made somewhere.

Ballgroups are organized and skilled so they can beat significantly larger numbers than themselves. And this, on the face of it, does seem unbalanced. 12 people beating 30?? Madness! But then we must consider that they are organized and skilled and their opponents are not (to the same degree.) So we can't compare the 12 to the 30 really, can we? Skill gap is going to create a fairly large margin of error. But we have to compare it to something or when we say "balanced," what is it balanced with??

So I am using examples of what solo players and small scale groups can do to demonstrate how, in my opinion, what ballgroups do is perfectly in keeping with what talented people at all group levels are doing.

If you think this is flawed reasoning then please explain why. It isn't really enough to just throw my argument in the trash because you read something once about what some people do sometimes.

@YandereGirlfriend That was helpful information actually thank you for clearing that up.

ShadowProc wrote: »

You keep defending ball groups but then you make that statement about questioning if players understand balance. No offense but your stance in multiple threads seems like you are either in a ball group or do not understand balance.

Ball groups are completely broken. There is no defense. They can't be killed 99 percent of the time. And they giggle in comms playing with one hand while stomping everyone not in a ball.

These are the facts and they are undisputed.

They giggle in comms playing with one hand and that fact is undisputed? Lol.

I have never played in a ballgroup. I have been a member of various PvP guilds that run 12man groups and fight other guilds that run 12man groups. For the most part my groups have always done well. Very well. But occasionally another group would show up and kill us. And occasionally we would discuss it amongst ourselves and get all hyped about "okay we need to start slotting THESE skills... We need a designated negate... Everybody needs to slot Echoing Vigor... Let's get off our brawler Xing builds and incorporate some sets that buff eachother."

But the hype only lasts for a day. And we would never follow through. Because some people get very mad being told what to do or how to play. And some people don't want to have a character set up that they can't 1v1 with, or BG with, or whatever. They don't want to only be good when they're in a group.

I was/am a member of a talented group that doesn't do what it takes to be the best. And we lose to ballgroups.

But I know why. And I don't find it unbalanced. And rather than being biased as you assume it is actually quite the opposite. I admire their dedication and talent. What about you? Are you a member of a ballgroup blowing the whistle on your own power? Or????