PvP healing

huskandhunger

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Hybridization of healing in PVP has opened access to many self-healing options and restoration staff capabilities, but can we please look into toning down some of the excessive cross-healing power in PVP environments?

Thank you.

i11ionward

How about making the healing scale from max magicka or stamina? How much will this change affect PvE?

Iriidius

i11ionward wrote: »

How about making the healing scale from max magicka or stamina? How much will this change affect PvE?

How about keeping it scaling with wpn dmg and max stam/mag like it does since start of the game.
Max mag/stam stacking will nerf self healing and solo players and buff healers in ballgroups.

OBJnoob

@Iriidius Don't you find self healing to be overpowered as well though?

Afterip

i11ionward wrote: »

How about making the healing scale from max magicka or stamina? How much will this change affect PvE?

I think this is really good idea. Right now many of pvp players trying to get wd/spd as much as they can and and that is why they heal themselfs verywell.And if ZOS change healing scale from magica or stamina it will give us some build diversity.
What if reduced heal scale from wd/spd to x0.5 and increased heal scale from mana/stamina x1.5 or 2.

i11ionward

Iriidius wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

How about making the healing scale from max magicka or stamina? How much will this change affect PvE?

How about keeping it scaling with wpn dmg and max stam/mag like it does since start of the game.
Max mag/stam stacking will nerf self healing and solo players and buff healers in ballgroups.

In ballgroups everyone is healer

VaranisArano

So here's the catch with cross-healing: obviously ita really powerful when you stick 12 people with cross-heals literally next to each other...but random players also have to be able to effectively heal the person next to them.

The later is what ZOS found out when they instituted group-only healing and why they brought cross healing back.

Suddenly, you couldn't heal that squishy guy next to you who was bomber bait. Suddenly, you couldn't heal the guy helping you defend the keep. Suddenly, you couldn't keep people alive unless you grouped with them. Healers simply couldn't play if they weren't with a group, something that wasn't true of any other playstyle.


Just reducing cross-heals wouldn't be as bad as that test, but we're still dealing with a fundamental disparity of numbers. An ungrouped healer ought to be able to effectively heal the people around them, right? Players who organically show up to fight at the same keep have to be able to effectively heal each other, right? Players who are standing around the same flag or repairing the same wall have to be able to heal each other, right?

But when you take effective cross-healing that allows random players to play together, and you give it to 12 people who practice sticking together like glue, the result is predictably powerful.

And if you lower the effectiveness of crosshealing, and you still have 12 people who practice sticking together like glue, then what cross healing exists will be far more effectively used by the ball group, and they'll absolutely destroy random players even more than they used to. We know, because that's what happened in the no cross-healing test.

i11ionward

VaranisArano wrote: »

So here's the catch with cross-healing: obviously ita really powerful when you stick 12 people with cross-heals literally next to each other...but random players also have to be able to effectively heal the person next to them.

The later is what ZOS found out when they instituted group-only healing and why they brought cross healing back.

Suddenly, you couldn't heal that squishy guy next to you who was bomber bait. Suddenly, you couldn't heal the guy helping you defend the keep. Suddenly, you couldn't keep people alive unless you grouped with them. Healers simply couldn't play if they weren't with a group, something that wasn't true of any other playstyle.


Just reducing cross-heals wouldn't be as bad as that test, but we're still dealing with a fundamental disparity of numbers. An ungrouped healer ought to be able to effectively heal the people around them, right? Players who organically show up to fight at the same keep have to be able to effectively heal each other, right? Players who are standing around the same flag or repairing the same wall have to be able to heal each other, right?

But when you take effective cross-healing that allows random players to play together, and you give it to 12 people who practice sticking together like glue, the result is predictably powerful.

And if you lower the effectiveness of crosshealing, and you still have 12 people who practice sticking together like glue, then what cross healing exists will be far more effectively used by the ball group, and they'll absolutely destroy random players even more than they used to. We know, because that's what happened in the no cross-healing test.

I'm probably too old, but I always thought that the healer should heal, and DDs should deal damage.
I recently decided to make myself a healer and I was surprised my healer has a tooltip on heal less than my DD. Of course they are dressed in different sets, but is this damn normal?
I don't mind having healers heal a lot, but DDs shouldn't heal that much.

Amottica

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Iriidius Don't you find self healing to be overpowered as well though?

I am not @Iriidius but OP is not suggesting toning down self-healing but cross-healing. That is the ability to heal others.

Regardless, I do not find it overpowered. We are able to kill people just fine and we run as a small to medium size group.

So if we do not find it an insurmountable challenge to kill someone then what does that suggest?

Elendir2am

Snake in the stars looked like set which would address problems with stacking of too much HoTs. Yet ZOS delivered it in nerfed version. Set which has very limited type of targets, demanding on way of procing, has decent DMG if used well, but very short time of working with much larger cooldown. If SitS wasnt delivered nerfed by ZOS, and was comparable with PB in at least some metrics, HoTs stackers would have to be more careful.

OBJnoob

Amottica wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Iriidius Don't you find self healing to be overpowered as well though?

I am not @Iriidius but OP is not suggesting toning down self-healing but cross-healing. That is the ability to heal others.

Regardless, I do not find it overpowered. We are able to kill people just fine and we run as a small to medium size group.

So if we do not find it an insurmountable challenge to kill someone then what does that suggest?

Yes, thank you for the response. Depending on their response I was just going to suggest that maybe all healing is a bit overtuned at the moment, and not so much cross healing specifically.

In general I don't find it hard to kill people either. And I die fairly frequently too. But I have seen examples of ballgroups with some very high cross healing. I have also seen solo players accomplishing proportionately similar feats against proportionately similar odds.

I think, for the most part, it stands to reason that a large group would heal themselves and that it would be very effective. Healing is very effective.

Amottica

OBJnoob wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Iriidius Don't you find self healing to be overpowered as well though?

I am not @Iriidius but OP is not suggesting toning down self-healing but cross-healing. That is the ability to heal others.

Regardless, I do not find it overpowered. We are able to kill people just fine and we run as a small to medium size group.

So if we do not find it an insurmountable challenge to kill someone then what does that suggest?

Yes, thank you for the response. Depending on their response I was just going to suggest that maybe all healing is a bit overtuned at the moment, and not so much cross healing specifically.

In general I don't find it hard to kill people either. And I die fairly frequently too. But I have seen examples of ballgroups with some very high cross healing. I have also seen solo players accomplishing proportionately similar feats against proportionately similar odds.

I think, for the most part, it stands to reason that a large group would heal themselves and that it would be very effective. Healing is very effective.

The group I run with is hard to kill. We don’t have everyone running hots on everyone else. We are just well organized and coordinated. Most of our healing comes from dedicated healers and their numbers depend on the size of our group.

So sure. Nerd cross healing and those groups that are hard to kill will still be hard to kill because they are organized and coordinated.

Iriidius

i11ionward wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

How about making the healing scale from max magicka or stamina? How much will this change affect PvE?

How about keeping it scaling with wpn dmg and max stam/mag like it does since start of the game.
Max mag/stam stacking will nerf self healing and solo players and buff healers in ballgroups.

In ballgroups everyone is healer

Sounds like you never played with a real ballgroup. Ballgroups have different roles and consists of for example 6 dds with dual wield frontbar(spin2win) and froststaff backbar(eye of storm(destro ulti)), 2 supports with bow and resto staff and 4 healers with healingstaff and secondhealingstaff/dualwield.
The dds have only echoing vigor slottet. It is a cross heal, but only 1 weak HOT skill, so does it make ballgroup dds healers? Even Trial dds often have echoing vigor slottet.
The support use echoing vigor and radiant regeneration.
The healers echoing vigor, radiant regeneration, combat prayer and many other healing skills.

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Iriidius Don't you find self healing to be overpowered as well though?

Before update 35 dmg nerfs I could kill almost everyone that wasnt stronger in duell and even now I can kill even many mara trickery bloodspawn dks with an also tanky trickery bloodspawn kynmarcher(althought kynmarcher gets cleansed by mara) dk althought I stalemate many more players than before. Before update 35 damage and self healing was fine.
Cross healing is much stronger than self healing and overpowered
Making healing scale with max stam/mag will make players dependent on healers. Combined with other bad ideas like disable cross healing only between groups/soloplayers and „make role matter“ it will push solo players out of Cyrodiil.

Amottica wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Iriidius Don't you find self healing to be overpowered as well though?

I am not @Iriidius but OP is not suggesting toning down self-healing but cross-healing. That is the ability to heal others.

Regardless, I do not find it overpowered. We are able to kill people just fine and we run as a small to medium size group.

So if we do not find it an insurmountable challenge to kill someone then what does that suggest?

Yes, thank you for the response. Depending on their response I was just going to suggest that maybe all healing is a bit overtuned at the moment, and not so much cross healing specifically.

In general I don't find it hard to kill people either. And I die fairly frequently too. But I have seen examples of ballgroups with some very high cross healing. I have also seen solo players accomplishing proportionately similar feats against proportionately similar odds.

I think, for the most part, it stands to reason that a large group would heal themselves and that it would be very effective. Healing is very effective.

The group I run with is hard to kill. We don’t have everyone running hots on everyone else. We are just well organized and coordinated. Most of our healing comes from dedicated healers and their numbers depend on the size of our group.

So sure. Nerd cross healing and those groups that are hard to kill will still be hard to kill because they are organized and coordinated.

So because organized groups are already hard to kill because they are coordinated, they should be made even harder to kill by giving ththem cross healing much stronger than self healing and much higher stats by group buff sets? Sure they would also be difficult to kill when they wear 12 solo builds but not as hard as they are now.

OBJnoob

I mean... If we're going to discuss this in hopes of reaching a conclusion we all agree on then let's start by being honest about one thing. Cross healing is not stronger than self healing. Resolving Vigor is like 4x stronger than Echoing Vigor. The game already caters to solo people and small-scalers... You're living proof, wearing Daedric Trickery and Kynmarchers, constantly getting 30% of this or Major that, playing a DK I'm sure it takes 10 people to bring you down. There are so many sets like this and other sets made for bombing. Vicious Death, Plaguebreak, DC, Masters 2H, etc etc. Solo players have plenty of toys to play with if they want to fight outnumbered.

But a DK wearing 0 damage sets can't take down a group and now cross healing is a problem? But in all the pugs you must've Xed you never considered that your own Resolving Vigor or Coag might be OP? Really?

Self healing is stronger than cross healing. Period. The numbers are higher. And to be honest the buffs/debuffs your gear is giving you is on par with their buffs as well.

The ONLY difference is that more people = more heals and more buffs. What's wrong with that? I don't see how that could make more sense.

VaranisArano

OBJnoob wrote: »

I mean... If we're going to discuss this in hopes of reaching a conclusion we all agree on then let's start by being honest about one thing. Cross healing is not stronger than self healing. Resolving Vigor is like 4x stronger than Echoing Vigor. The game already caters to solo people and small-scalers... You're living proof, wearing Daedric Trickery and Kynmarchers, constantly getting 30% of this or Major that, playing a DK I'm sure it takes 10 people to bring you down. There are so many sets like this and other sets made for bombing. Vicious Death, Plaguebreak, DC, Masters 2H, etc etc. Solo players have plenty of toys to play with if they want to fight outnumbered.

But a DK wearing 0 damage sets can't take down a group and now cross healing is a problem? But in all the pugs you must've Xed you never considered that your own Resolving Vigor or Coag might be OP? Really?

Self healing is stronger than cross healing. Period. The numbers are higher. And to be honest the buffs/debuffs your gear is giving you is on par with their buffs as well.

The ONLY difference is that more people = more heals and more buffs. What's wrong with that? I don't see how that could make more sense.

So I half agree with this. Self healing is really strong. We've had past threads from 4-man squads complaining that it took a full raid busting out the siege to take them down (and then complaining that siege is OP.)

But I'll also speak from the perspective of a group healer to talk about group specialization.

Most solo or small scale players run rather self-sufficient builds. So they have powerful self-healing options, but that also comes that the expense of the skill slots for healing/defense. It means they have to build to a certain level of defense.

Whereas in an organized group, the dedicated healers carry much of the weight of sustained healing with optimized builds. The DDs have their cross-heal, but don't have to sacrifice near as much build space to heal or defense themselves because those are being provided by other players. It's closer to a PVE trial group in that way.

For a brief time, I played an absolute glass cannon PVP StamWarden with Pillar of Nirn. My job was to charge out of the group, smash somebody hard, get my proc off, and get back to the group. I had like 17k health and medium armor at a time when that was complete glass. As long as I stayed inside my group, I was basically unkillable because of our healers. If I overextended or failed to get back to my group quickly, I died instantly. Honestly, I wasn't very good at it and swapped back to healer. We had two VD bombers who were amazing at it.

So in my experience on both ends of the stick, more people does equal more heals and buffs, but it's synergistic. Think exponential growth, not linear. Because specialized healers and stacked gear buffs allow the damage dealers to specialize in various damage sources and debuffs, ball groups and other organized raids just turn into a tough nut to crack unless you can pull them apart one player at a time.

Iriidius

OBJnoob wrote: »

I mean... If we're going to discuss this in hopes of reaching a conclusion we all agree on then let's start by being honest about one thing. Cross healing is not stronger than self healing. Resolving Vigor is like 4x stronger than Echoing Vigor. The game already caters to solo people and small-scalers... You're living proof, wearing Daedric Trickery and Kynmarchers, constantly getting 30% of this or Major that, playing a DK I'm sure it takes 10 people to bring you down. There are so many sets like this and other sets made for bombing. Vicious Death, Plaguebreak, DC, Masters 2H, etc etc. Solo players have plenty of toys to play with if they want to fight outnumbered.

But a DK wearing 0 damage sets can't take down a group and now cross healing is a problem? But in all the pugs you must've Xed you never considered that your own Resolving Vigor or Coag might be OP? Really?

Self healing is stronger than cross healing. Period. The numbers are higher. And to be honest the buffs/debuffs your gear is giving you is on par with their buffs as well.

The ONLY difference is that more people = more heals and more buffs. What's wrong with that? I don't see how that could make more sense.

I dont know how you define „stronger“, but when a 12 man group stacks 12 echoing vigor they have 4 times the hps of a solo player using resolving vigor and still has to cast it less often and when they stack 12 radiating regeneration they have 6 times the hps of a player using resolving vigor.

Echoing vigor and radiant regeneration have the same cost and same overall healing as resolving vigor and rapid regeneration, only that echoing vigor is spread over 16 seconds and gives it to 6 targets and radiating regeneration gives it to 3 targets over 10 seconds insteat of 5 seconds for 1 second.
When you have 2 players using radiating regen each on gets the same healing as when he uses rapid regeneration for himself for twice the time.
Or do you mean self healing is stronger than cross healing on solo players? Of course self healing should be stronger on solo players than cross healing, but even some solo players use radiating insteat of rapid regen when they have other heals and dont have time to cast rapid every 5 seconds.
When a tanky dk can kill a another tanky dk but not even a group of dks can damage threw ballgroup healing than ballgroup healing is definitely stronger than selfhealing. And it only takes 10 players to kill me when the 10 players are incredible bad, a good player can kill me in duell.
I also never said that I expect to solo a ballgroup with a dk tank. When I want to fight a ballgroup i would use a bomber or a blocktank to keep them busy but not a tanky pressure dk.
But even a double bomb cant kill them. When I see someone else try to bomb the ballgroup and immediately drop my own burst ulti on it, they have already healed to full when I hit.

Organized groups can run mara and daedrick trickery and kynmarcher too, but they dont because group buff sets are stronger in group. You dont need daedrick trickery because you get major+minor expedition from rapid maneuver, major mending from warden/healing staff passive, protection from northern storm andmajor vitality from bone surge synergy.
They could use kynmarcher on just 1 player to get same benefit as me using it solo or use it on 2-4 players to get higher uptime but they dont because they get major and minor breach from deep fissure or noxious breath full uptime, major defile from blastbones full uptime, major vulnerability from colossus, major cowardice from mass hysterie full uptime and major maim from frost clench, frozen gate, nova, or some set. You also get minor thougness(warden), brutality/sorcery(dk/templar), courage(draw essense/phoenix moth), berserk(combat prayer), major courage(olorime/spc), force(saxheel champion),
dont have manage major brutality(molten armament) and resolve(ice fortress yourself
Rallying cry is more popular than trickery or Kynmarcher and almost as popular as mara and a group buff set, in organized group only 1 player has to wear it. There are many other unique sets like ozezan, symphony of blades, hircine, wormcult, sanctuary, meritorious service, transmutation, powerful assault, lamia, pillager, arkasis, scorion and many more.

OBJnoob

Iriidius wrote: »

I dont know how you define „stronger“, but when a 12 man group stacks 12 echoing vigor they have 4 times the hps of a solo player using resolving vigor and still has to cast it less often and when they stack 12 radiating regeneration they have 6 times the hps of a player using resolving vigor.

Well. Maybe I chose my words poorly, but yes this is pretty much what I'm getting at. If it takes a 12-man stacking 12 radiatings AND 12 echoings to equal only 6x the healing of a solo player then which heal is stronger?

To me it seems like the solo heal is stronger. And this doesn't mean the solo player is stronger or has much chance of winning it just means that perhaps Echoing Vigor isn't the problem. This morph has already been adjusted to satisfy your complaint. Why should we make it weaker still or limit stacks? It's almost useless until you reach 5+ people and only then it becomes strong. So if you only let it effect 3 or 4 people you've effectively made it garbage and removed it from the game. Surely in a MMO that allows groups of 12 people it wouldn't be balanced or fair to limit group skills in such a way?

That's the point I'm trying to make about cross healing.

As for the rest of your post, as well as what @VaranisArano said, I pretty much agree. I agree that group members will end up with extra skill slots. But again, I think this already has been balanced in a way. I can use Igneous Weapons to give my whole group major brutality and save them a skill slot. But that doesn't mean Igneous Weapons is over performing. It's just being put to good use in the only way it can be. Because the caster is giving up using a different skill that would benefit them more such as Rally. Or if a Warden gives the whole group Major Resolve then the Warden is giving up their own passive minor protection.

So I do realize that they can get their minor protection a different way instead-- but my point, as with Echoing Vigor, is that the solo morphs are in fact stronger. The game has already balanced it this way where solo players can compete with larger numbers. But yes there remains a threshold around 8 or 12 players where the benefit of grouping begins to powerfully overshadow this. But isn't that to be expected? Isn't this fair?

I don't find this exploitative or OP. They're using skills that are already all but useless in any other scenario... They just happen to be using them in the one niche those skills have meaning. And in the end I find that there is nothing wrong with the skills at all, it is simply a matter of more numbers beating less numbers. Which is honestly the way it should be unless there is a tremendous skill gap between the two groups involved. But with a good ballgroup there is no skill gap. So they win. Again... This is pretty much exactly how it should be.

Now... About the sets. I don't have much to say about this. If anything were to be done to nerf large groups... Limiting the number of targets on some of these sets we wear would be the most agreeable to me.

But I do want to stick to my guns a little bit. If we take your build and change it just a little. You're wearing Daedric Trickery and Kynmarchers Cruelty. If you were also wearing Magma Incarnate and Sea Serpents Coil... Then how many powerful buffs and debuffs have you just stacked into a solo build? It's pretty incredible, isn't it? You're a walking ballgroup all by yourself! Please allow an actual ballgroup to be stronger. It's only right.

i11ionward

Iriidius wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

How about making the healing scale from max magicka or stamina? How much will this change affect PvE?

How about keeping it scaling with wpn dmg and max stam/mag like it does since start of the game.
Max mag/stam stacking will nerf self healing and solo players and buff healers in ballgroups.

In ballgroups everyone is healer

Sounds like you never played with a real ballgroup. Ballgroups have different roles and consists of for example 6 dds with dual wield frontbar(spin2win) and froststaff backbar(eye of storm(destro ulti)), 2 supports with bow and resto staff and 4 healers with healingstaff and secondhealingstaff/dualwield.
The dds have only echoing vigor slottet. It is a cross heal, but only 1 weak HOT skill, so does it make ballgroup dds healers? Even Trial dds often have echoing vigor slottet.
The support use echoing vigor and radiant regeneration.
The healers echoing vigor, radiant regeneration, combat prayer and many other healing skills.

Yes, I have never played in a coordinated ballgroups. And I think it's normal when a ballgroups is stronger than a solo player (this is generally the law for all MMOs).
What I don't like compared to other MMOs is the following:
1. Stacking HoTs is too simple a mechanic (especially for ballgroups), such groups should rely on kiting, using group sets and group skills, burst heals, etc, and not passive HoT healing 20k per second, IMHO.
2. DDs have very strong burst healing. I just can't get used to it, I've never seen it in other MMOs.

Solariken

I think 3rd party healing crits should get reduced by the target's Critical Resistance. That might help tone it down a little bit in PvP while obviously having zero impact on PvE.

ShadowProc

i11ionward wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

How about making the healing scale from max magicka or stamina? How much will this change affect PvE?

How about keeping it scaling with wpn dmg and max stam/mag like it does since start of the game.
Max mag/stam stacking will nerf self healing and solo players and buff healers in ballgroups.

In ballgroups everyone is healer

Do you even know how much skill that takes ball groups to make that buff bar that long? It takes massive coordination and preparation.

We can easily do it as small scalers if we practice hard enough. Lol

Al kidding aside that is ridiculous.

Iriidius

OBJnoob wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

I dont know how you define „stronger“, but when a 12 man group stacks 12 echoing vigor they have 4 times the hps of a solo player using resolving vigor and still has to cast it less often and when they stack 12 radiating regeneration they have 6 times the hps of a player using resolving vigor.

Well. Maybe I chose my words poorly, but yes this is pretty much what I'm getting at. If it takes a 12-man stacking 12 radiatings AND 12 echoings to equal only 6x the healing of a solo player then which heal is stronger?

To me it seems like the solo heal is stronger. And this doesn't mean the solo player is stronger or has much chance of winning it just means that perhaps Echoing Vigor isn't the problem. This morph has already been adjusted to satisfy your complaint. Why should we make it weaker still or limit stacks? It's almost useless until you reach 5+ people and only then it becomes strong. So if you only let it effect 3 or 4 people you've effectively made it garbage and removed it from the game. Surely in a MMO that allows groups of 12 people it wouldn't be balanced or fair to limit group skills in such a way?

That's the point I'm trying to make about cross healing.

As for the rest of your post, as well as what @VaranisArano said, I pretty much agree. I agree that group members will end up with extra skill slots. But again, I think this already has been balanced in a way. I can use Igneous Weapons to give my whole group major brutality and save them a skill slot. But that doesn't mean Igneous Weapons is over performing. It's just being put to good use in the only way it can be. Because the caster is giving up using a different skill that would benefit them more such as Rally. Or if a Warden gives the whole group Major Resolve then the Warden is giving up their own passive minor protection.

So I do realize that they can get their minor protection a different way instead-- but my point, as with Echoing Vigor, is that the solo morphs are in fact stronger. The game has already balanced it this way where solo players can compete with larger numbers. But yes there remains a threshold around 8 or 12 players where the benefit of grouping begins to powerfully overshadow this. But isn't that to be expected? Isn't this fair?

I don't find this exploitative or OP. They're using skills that are already all but useless in any other scenario... They just happen to be using them in the one niche those skills have meaning. And in the end I find that there is nothing wrong with the skills at all, it is simply a matter of more numbers beating less numbers. Which is honestly the way it should be unless there is a tremendous skill gap between the two groups involved. But with a good ballgroup there is no skill gap. So they win. Again... This is pretty much exactly how it should be.

Now... About the sets. I don't have much to say about this. If anything were to be done to nerf large groups... Limiting the number of targets on some of these sets we wear would be the most agreeable to me.

But I do want to stick to my guns a little bit. If we take your build and change it just a little. You're wearing Daedric Trickery and Kynmarchers Cruelty. If you were also wearing Magma Incarnate and Sea Serpents Coil... Then how many powerful buffs and debuffs have you just stacked into a solo build? It's pretty incredible, isn't it? You're a walking ballgroup all by yourself! Please allow an actual ballgroup to be stronger. It's only right.

Its 6x the healing of a solo player on every player in a ballgroup and 72x the healing of a solo player on all 12man ballgroup, not 6x the healing total, but you complain because it is not 12^2=144x the healing of a solo player or more. You want every player in ballgroup to be more than 12x as strong as a solo player,
IRL if you run with a 12man group you also dont get more resistent. If I shoot you you dont bleed out slower because you are in a group. You only have 12 warriors that can attack and 12 warriors that have to get killed for the group to stop existing.
They can bodyblock but not heal each other.
You can shoot them all with a machine gun, blow the whole group up with a bomb, explosive, flammable or poison gas or stab one of them as easy as you can when they are alone.
Trickery and Kynmarcher have only 40% uptime for buffs you can get full uptime in organized group.
Kynmarcher is an enemy debuff set, 1 player in group can debuff enemys for whole group, multiple players wearing it can get higher uptime. Magma Incarnate is a group buff set, only 1 out of for players has to wear it. Daedric trickery is a selfish set and cant be shared with group, but you get most buffs in group on other ways anyway and rallyng cry, a set that is more popular than daedrick trickery and kynmarcher and replaced kynmarcher on most solo dks is a group buff set.
1(3 for magma incarnate) player in ballgroup can give all the buffs to the whole group that i can give only to myself as a solo player, the remaining 11 can give additional buffs to the group.
Sea serpent coil gives you 40% snare making you unable to escape for a 2 buffs you can get major courage by 1 group member wearing olorhime and major berserk by 1 groupmember using stormatro(or maybe you use chain(Xv1 zerg), wrecking blow, dark deal anyway).
I get not nearly as many buffs and enemy debuffs and as high stats as a member in a ballgroup and
I am am only 1 player and can use only 1 skill per global cooldown, not 12, so i am not a walking ballgroup by myself, I am not even nearly as strong when playing solo as when I play in a ballgroup.

i11ionward wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

How about making the healing scale from max magicka or stamina? How much will this change affect PvE?

How about keeping it scaling with wpn dmg and max stam/mag like it does since start of the game.
Max mag/stam stacking will nerf self healing and solo players and buff healers in ballgroups.

In ballgroups everyone is healer

Sounds like you never played with a real ballgroup. Ballgroups have different roles and consists of for example 6 dds with dual wield frontbar(spin2win) and froststaff backbar(eye of storm(destro ulti)), 2 supports with bow and resto staff and 4 healers with healingstaff and secondhealingstaff/dualwield.
The dds have only echoing vigor slottet. It is a cross heal, but only 1 weak HOT skill, so does it make ballgroup dds healers? Even Trial dds often have echoing vigor slottet.
The support use echoing vigor and radiant regeneration.
The healers echoing vigor, radiant regeneration, combat prayer and many other healing skills.

Yes, I have never played in a coordinated ballgroups. And I think it's normal when a ballgroups is stronger than a solo player (this is generally the law for all MMOs).
What I don't like compared to other MMOs is the following:
1. Stacking HoTs is too simple a mechanic (especially for ballgroups), such groups should rely on kiting, using group sets and group skills, burst heals, etc, and not passive HoT healing 20k per second, IMHO.
2. DDs have very strong burst healing. I just can't get used to it, I've never seen it in other MMOs.

Althought I have played in ballgroups myself, I dont like the strength advantage ballgroups get by HoT stacking and group buff sets.
Ballgroups are already kiting very much despite having HoT stacking or isnt running around 3rd floor of a trikeep kiting?
You said everyone in a ballgroup is a healer and that DDs have to strong burst healing, many players say that all members would be healers, dds and tanks in one person and players should have to decide for one role althought ballgroups are already doing this. Making roles more important(like by making healing scale with max stat insteat of wpn dmg) will make ballgroups stronger and nerf solo players, because if they spezialise into one role noone is doing the other roles for them. Crosshealing is to strong but everyone in ballgroup beeing healer is not true.
I was in another guild where really everyone used a healing staff backbar with radiant regen, life giver(resto ultimate) and sometimes also echoing vigor, but they were an coordinated group, not a ballgroup and they still had 1 full healer for every 6 players, while the rest still used damage skills.
And many zerg guilds have every player using resto staff, echoing vigor, radiant regen and live giver, but not the true ballgroups.

OBJnoob

You lost me on your math there I have no idea where you're getting numbers like 144 or 72.

And I'm not complaining. There are two threads going on now where I'm having similar discussions. They, like you, think cross healing is overpowered. You might say they are "complaining" about it. I'm saying it might be alright-- the opposite of complaining.

Anyway. Echoing Vigor is a lot weaker than Resolving Vigor. Basically the same with the two Regen morphs. 3 or 4 times weaker. So a 12man group all casting Vigor and Regen on eachother will amount to each individual having about 4x the healing as one person just standing there casting Resolving Vigor and Rapid Regen on themselves.

12 x 1 = 4. What's out of balance here in this equation? It isn't that the 4 is too big, I'll tell you that.

And you kinda lost me with the real world references too. I mean, I was in the Army and have been to war, I just don't think it applies much here.

Just to be clear... I'm not upset that 12 people healing 1 person doesn't result in 12x the healing. That would perhaps be too strong for a game. I just think the mechanism is already in place to limit it and benefit solo players and smaller groups. For one thing-- what I've been talking about-- the difference in morphs. For another thing not brought up yet-- the max group size is a lot smaller than it used to be.

Rogue_WolfESO

In a solo setting you can fall off a high spot and take damage, cross the entire map basically, and you will not fully recover your health because ZoS nerfed health recovery to the basement in cyrodiil. Without cross healing, how does anyone expect to pvp?

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

You lost me on your math there I have no idea where you're getting numbers like 144 or 72.

Not really sure about the 144, but the 72 I think I can explain.

Twelve solo players each using resolving vigor once = 12 ticks of healing per second spread across 12 players.

Echoing vigor hits 6 players within its AoE, so 12 players all using echoing once is equal to 6 ticks (1 tick for each of the 6 targets) times 12 ticks (12 casts of the ability) of healing per second spread across 12 players (12 x 6 = 72). This is equal to 72 ticks of a single player using echoing vigor to heal themselves only.

Now, lets say resolving vigor heals for 3 times the amount echoing heals for per cast.
That means that the 12 solos will end up healing for the equivalent of 36 ticks (12 casts multiplied by 3 times the healing value) of echoing vigors healing per second on each single target or the equivalent healing per second.

So even if resolving heals for 3 times the amount that echoing heals for, stacking up echoing, like is currently possible, still results in double the amount of healing coming in for the group than running resolving does.

Resolving also doesn't heal for anywhere near this hypothetical 3x amount either. It is 1.548 times the base value of healing that echoing does. So using that value of healing (1.548x) those 12 casts of resolving vigor grants ticks of healing equal to 18.579 ticks of echoing to the group per second or just barely over 1/4 of the healing value (72 ticks of healing per second) that stacking echoing provides to the group.

So while resolving vigor is stronger for a single cast on a single player, the fact that echoing is allowed to stack infinitely means that instead of 18.6 ticks per second of healing being cast on a group of 12, that healing is now the equivalent to 72 ticks of healing being cast on the group of 12, which is almost 4 times the amount of healing coming in for the group despite resolving having a tooltip 1.5 times higher tooltip than echoing.

Taking it to its logical conclusion, each cast of resolving vigor would have to have a tooltip that is 6 times higher than echoing vigors tooltip (or 4 times resolvings current tooltip) to match the healing to a group of 12 that stacking echoing vigor currently gives.

This is where the disparity lies with HoT stacking in its current form, that 6 times the amount of healing is an absurd value of healing that is being thrown around from just stacking up 1 skill. This doesn't account for radiating and other stackable HoTs that are added on top of vigor which also have the same stacking effects depending on the number of targets they can heal (radiating is 3 targets).

Organized groups should have an advantage, but 6 times the healing that is possible (from only 1 Hot) on top of other heals and HoTs, their inherent advantage of organization/coordination + the buff/debuff/set access with minimal opportunity cost + the minimal opportunity cost of slotting counter skills for niche situations, it becomes really absurd levels of power that they have access to that is well above what is possible to stack when trying to put 12 players in solo builds into a group. Especially when healing is already very strong overall and stronger than damage like it currently is.

Janni

Elendir2am wrote: »

Snake in the stars looked like set which would address problems with stacking of too much HoTs. Yet ZOS delivered it in nerfed version. Set which has very limited type of targets, demanding on way of procing, has decent DMG if used well, but very short time of working with much larger cooldown. If SitS wasnt delivered nerfed by ZOS, and was comparable with PB in at least some metrics, HoTs stackers would have to be more careful.

This was never a good solution to the problem. Either a) everyone that isn't in a ballgroup has to run it all the time so that they can potentially fight ballgroups or b) ballgroups themselves run it cause it's just overwhelmingly powerful against every situation they can face or c) a and b combine.

Heal stacking has always been the biggest issue and removing it is probably the most direct way of solving the problem without completely destroying solo healers helping other random people, solo players in general, composition groups that run dedicated healers, or small groups that have a handful of off heals each.

OBJnoob

@Turtle_Bot Man. You make me wish I had a computer so I could really get into these debates with you. Have multiple tabs open and crosscheck references and use a calculator and stuff. As it is, I'm normally typing to you on my phone on lunch at work or sitting on the couch at night with my 2 year old son climbing on me. Lol.

I understand, theoretically, where the other guy got his numbers from. 144 is 12x12... I get it.

And I basically get the math you're telling me also.

But some of the things you refer to as being "inherent," like organization, aren't actually inherent by definition. The organization, timing, positioning, blah blah these are all skills and don't come inherent at all. If these were inherent then zergs wouldn't have any trouble fighting them. What is actually inherent is the HoT stacks. 1 person will inherently (okay I'm kinda using the word wrong too, but not for long,) use Resolving Vigor. 4+ people will inherently use Echoing Vigor. 5 people will inherently have 1 more Echoing than 4. 12 people will inherently have 12. It isn't broken or disproportionate at all it is inherent to the numbers advantage.

You say that Resolving Vigor isn't actually 3x as strong as Echoing. I'd like to know how you figure that.

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Assault+Skills Is this link up to date? Because if it is..then let's see here... Resolving Vigor is 5988 over 5 seconds and Echoing is 3480 over 16 seconds. It's 3x as powerful at first glance because we can see the duration is 3x less. Not to mention the number itself is like 75% bigger. So... You're the one with the computer... You do the math.

The difference in these morphs is clearly to give solo people a chance fighting outnumbered. And if your group is only like 4 people then you have a decision to make. And if your group is 6 strong, all stacking Echoing, fighting against a group of 12 doing the same thing then you are only getting half the healing.

Okay. But what's the problem with that? You have twice the people you get twice the healing.

I think we're focused too hard on the math of it. You get it... I'd like to think I get it... Our situation, I'd like to hope, is that we both understand very well but somehow still have opposite opinions. -shrug-

I think you hit the nail on the head in the other thread where basically you said, and I agreed, that:

Solo players can X incredible numbers but that's okay because it's easy to find enough players to eventually take them down.
Small scalers can X even bigger numbers but it's okay for the same reason.
Ballgroups can X insane numbers and it's arguably not okay because of lag and population caps sometimes there just aren't enough players to do anything.

So I fail to see how limiting HoT stacks is the logically precipitated solution to that problem. Making max group sizes smaller is where I land on it.

Janni

@OBJnoob Echoing vigor breaks even with Resolving at about 3 people when they are stacking. I can say this from practical experience. After that if you are working closely as a team echoing vigor far surpasses resolving in every way except when someone gets completely isolated from the group for a long period of time. You have to consider not only is the healing superior in terms of raw healing per second but it is also coming in at more frequent intervals which keeps you more 'covered' over a period of time. And at 15 seconds of uptime that works out to be very efficient when you consider both resource costs and use of GCD.

Even now I still often run echoing even though I mostly just solo zerg surf because it helps out anytime I find my self standing shoulder-to-shoulder with allies.

FantasticFreddie

VaranisArano wrote: »

So here's the catch with cross-healing: obviously ita really powerful when you stick 12 people with cross-heals literally next to each other...but random players also have to be able to effectively heal the person next to them.

The later is what ZOS found out when they instituted group-only healing and why they brought cross healing back.

Suddenly, you couldn't heal that squishy guy next to you who was bomber bait. Suddenly, you couldn't heal the guy helping you defend the keep. Suddenly, you couldn't keep people alive unless you grouped with them. Healers simply couldn't play if they weren't with a group, something that wasn't true of any other playstyle.


Just reducing cross-heals wouldn't be as bad as that test, but we're still dealing with a fundamental disparity of numbers. An ungrouped healer ought to be able to effectively heal the people around them, right? Players who organically show up to fight at the same keep have to be able to effectively heal each other, right? Players who are standing around the same flag or repairing the same wall have to be able to heal each other, right?

But when you take effective cross-healing that allows random players to play together, and you give it to 12 people who practice sticking together like glue, the result is predictably powerful.

And if you lower the effectiveness of crosshealing, and you still have 12 people who practice sticking together like glue, then what cross healing exists will be far more effectively used by the ball group, and they'll absolutely destroy random players even more than they used to. We know, because that's what happened in the no cross-healing test.

I absolutely HATED that test. I literally had to join a ball group to play. Zos created new ballgroups, which was not their intent at all.

OBJnoob

So my link is outdated then? Can you link me to a website that shows the correct values? I'm not trying to spread misinformation.

Either way... 3 is the number we've been operating with (in a different thread,) so I'm fine with that. Resolving is 3x stronger than Echoing. Good enough, let's move on.

I'm fighting the urge to have an eye-roll moment. I just don't know why we're digging so deep... Talking about how the 12 stacks were started at different times and tick 12 different times in one second instead of all at once. What are you trying to do, DoT the ballgroup to death?

The counter to ballgroups are bombers and ulti dumps of other groups. Preferably combined, since one bomber may not do the job. 4 D-Leaps, 4 Dawnbreakers, 4 Soul Tethers... Preferably combined with 4 FoO's, 4 beetles, and I dunno 4 spin to wins or whatever. This is how you group fight. All landing within 1 or 2 seconds of eachother. If you can't muster the numbers or coordination to make this happen then I guess you're screwed. I don't see the problem. You're talking about like 30k incoming heals per second and I'm talking about... I dunno let's assume each attack hits for only 3k... I'm talking about 48k, not including the spins which wouldn't be in the same GCD. Oops I forgot the Soul Tethers. 60k damage in one second.

If you're faced with a big group of good players it's going to take a big group of good players to kill them. That's not a balance issue.

OBJnoob

Honestly if a group of 12 people all healing eachother can't be allowed to be super survivable then can we next talk about completely eradicating bombers from the game? It's funny we have two things running rampant in this game. We have solo players capable of blowing up 12 zerglings all at once (or straight up fighting them for that matter,) and we have huge groups of coordinated players that can't be stopped.

You see these things and you say to yourself "the group is the one over performing." Why is that even a serious topic? I'm starting to wonder if certain people know what the word balance means.

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot Man. You make me wish I had a computer so I could really get into these debates with you. Have multiple tabs open and crosscheck references and use a calculator and stuff. As it is, I'm normally typing to you on my phone on lunch at work or sitting on the couch at night with my 2 year old son climbing on me. Lol.

Lol, I've only really had my laptop open since I've been using it to work on my thesis (just finished), otherwise I've been at work, so don't even get to use my phone.

It's why I've tried to simplify the math as much as possible to make it easy to read and follow.

I understand, theoretically, where the other guy got his numbers from. 144 is 12x12... I get it.

And I basically get the math you're telling me also.

But some of the things you refer to as being "inherent," like organization, aren't actually inherent by definition. The organization, timing, positioning, blah blah these are all skills and don't come inherent at all. If these were inherent then zergs wouldn't have any trouble fighting them. What is actually inherent is the HoT stacks. 1 person will inherently (okay I'm kinda using the word wrong too, but not for long,) use Resolving Vigor. 4+ people will inherently use Echoing Vigor. 5 people will inherently have 1 more Echoing than 4. 12 people will inherently have 12. It isn't broken or disproportionate at all it is inherent to the numbers advantage.

Yeah, I assumed as much for the 144, but echoing doesn't stack on all 12 group members (only 6) so I was more not sure why the 144 was brought up since it's technically not possible to reach this value of healing.

When I say inherent, I am referring to what organized groups inherently have (They're not inherent to the game itself, but more to those groups specifically, since otherwise those groups would be called unorganized or zergs or pugs). Yes it is a skill that those groups have refined, but it is inherent to what those groups are and do (at least for my understanding of inherent).

You say that Resolving Vigor isn't actually 3x as strong as Echoing. I'd like to know how you figure that.

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Assault+Skills Is this link up to date? Because if it is..then let's see here... Resolving Vigor is 5988 over 5 seconds and Echoing is 3480 over 16 seconds. It's 3x as powerful at first glance because we can see the duration is 3x less. Not to mention the number itself is like 75% bigger. So... You're the one with the computer... You do the math.

I say that resolving isn't 3 times as strong for a single cast of each ability. Both abilities cost 2984 stamina to cast once.

To cast resolving vigor to get it to last the same duration as echoing vigor, you need to cast resolving 3 times. Therefore it costs 3 times the stamina to get resolving to last the same duration as echoing. This increased resource cost to match the durations is why it's not 3 times as strong. I guess I should clarify, I am referring to the heal per cast for this, not the heal per duration.

By limiting the comparison to a 'per cast' metric, we can ignore the duration and the cost because we are looking at the total healing value for 1 cast. It doesn't matter how long the heal lasts for, since we are only looking at a single cast of the ability and comparing a single cast to its total healing done for that cast.

TL//DR: it makes the math very simple without reducing the accuracy.

The difference in these morphs is clearly to give solo people a chance fighting outnumbered. And if your group is only like 4 people then you have a decision to make. And if your group is 6 strong, all stacking Echoing, fighting against a group of 12 doing the same thing then you are only getting half the healing.

Okay. But what's the problem with that? You have twice the people you get twice the healing.

This isn't the problem here. But this is not what was being discussed. This compares echoing (times 12) to echoing (times 6), not echoing (times 12) to resolving (times 12) which was what was being discussed before.

Having stacked echoing be double effective when having double the group members is fine with me.

I think we're focused too hard on the math of it. You get it... I'd like to think I get it... Our situation, I'd like to hope, is that we both understand very well but somehow still have opposite opinions. -shrug-

I think you hit the nail on the head in the other thread where basically you said, and I agreed, that:

Solo players can X incredible numbers but that's okay because it's easy to find enough players to eventually take them down.
Small scalers can X even bigger numbers but it's okay for the same reason.
Ballgroups can X insane numbers and it's arguably not okay because of lag and population caps sometimes there just aren't enough players to do anything.

So I fail to see how limiting HoT stacks is the logically precipitated solution to that problem. Making max group sizes smaller is where I land on it.

The main reason I like to focus on the math of it, is that it's much harder for people to say that the math is just "someone's opinion" which is what some (not specifically you) like to do to counter arguments made when calling for nerfs.

Overall healing in general needs toning down, not just HoT stacking.

When it comes to ball groups, ZOS can look at HoT stacking, buff stacking, snow treaders, or whatever they want to look at, but as we agreed on the other thread, something needs to be done to tone down their power ceiling, that won't also harm unorganized groups, until we (hopefully) get larger pop caps that allow for their current power to not affect the game like it currently does.

It's why HoT stacking comes up when discussing organized/ball groups, since they are the ones using HoT stacking while unorganized groups are not, so adjusting HoT stacking is a way to target those groups specifically without also hurting pugs. Targeting HoT stacking will also hit small scales and solos technically too, since they do stack healing, just not to the same extent ball groups stack it, so it's also a nerf to solo and small scale (myself included) as well.

I've stated on the other thread my issues with reducing group sizes. It would work if communication/organization was not possible at all outside of the built in group chat, but this is not the case and due to the inherently casual nature of zergs/pugs would only further extend this power imbalance.

I've tried getting unorganized groups to stack HoTs, use the available tools, coordinate better, time burst, etc, but honestly the majority of them just don't want to spend that much effort on a game they are only going to be casual in, and while I agree that they shouldn't be rewarded (able to wipe ball groups) for not putting any effort into those things, it should also be possible for them to have enough numbers to overwhelm ball groups like they can currently still do against solo and small scale, which as we agreed in the other thread, is just not possible under the current low pop caps.

ZOS stated themselves that they want numbers to always win, but the current pop caps don't allow for this to be possible against ball groups, so until that is fixed, there needs to be different, targeted change to make this less of a problem.