Why is Arcanist not called a Warlock, or a cultist?

Daggerfell0929

Lore wise I just find it odd that the class is an arcanist when given its connection to a daedric prince, hormeus modra, Cultist or Warlock would be a better fitting class name.

In Skyrim they were called Mora Cultists in the dragonborne DLC

isadoraisacat

Daggerfell0929 wrote: »

Lore wise I just find it odd that the class is an arcanist when given its connection to a daedric prince, hormeus modra, Cultist or Warlock would be a better fitting class name.

In Skyrim they were called Mora Cultists in the dragonborne DLC

Cultist would sound a lot cooler and it does fit the theme. Not a bad idea.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

kaushad

A short answer is that they don't necessarily worship or buy powers from any deity, including Hermaeus Mora, or operate in cults. A longer answer is given in the books What is an Arcanist.

Djennku

If a term or name is coined by a different company, they can't legally use it and claim it as their's. That said, I don't know if the name Warlock is specific to anything, but there are reasons ZoS uses specfic names for their classes.

kynesgrove

Because Arcanist is based on the term Arcane, which means:

: known or knowable only to a few people : secret

• arcane rites
• an arcane ritual

broadly : mysterious, obscure

• arcane explanations
• arcane technical details

as well as:

• Requiring secret or mysterious knowledge to understand.
• Extremely old (e.g. interpretation or knowledge), and possibly irrelevant.

"Arcanist" is probably the most fitting, as well as for more apt and creative than "warlock".
And seeing how the entire theme and lore of the class is tied to THE Daedric Lord of forbidden, lost and esoteric knowledge. "Arcanist" describes someone wielding his power quite accurately.

In regards to not naming it "cultist":
Not all Mora magic users are cultists,
and
not all Mora worshippers are Arcanists.

Also the word "cultist" bears the weight of being derogatory towards anyone belonging to a "cult", to some they might very likely see it as a religion and not a cult, however misconstrued those individuals might be. It also would worm-hole the class into one meaning, which blocks off a myriad of RP routes.

kynesgrove

Also side note:

Warlock specifically refers to a man wielding and using witchcraft. So a male-witch. So Warlock already would not fit, due to it being a gendered term.

But for those interested the root form of Warlock is probably fitting to someone making a pact with otherworldy powers, the problem is that those persons are very much considered evil. In terms of H. Moras moral leanings, it's generally considered that he is at best morally ambiguous within the lore.

From Middle English warloghe, warlowe, warloȝe, from Old English wǣrloga (“traitor, deceiver”, literally “truce-breaker”), from Proto-West Germanic *wārulogō (“liar”), equivalent to Old English wǣr (“covenant, truce, pact, promise”) (from Proto-Indo-European *weh₁- (“true”); whence also Latin vērus) + loga (“liar”), from Proto-Germanic *lugô, related to Old English lēogan (whence English lie). The hard -ck ending originated in Scottish and Northern English, like the sense "male magic-user" (from the notion that such men were in league with the Devil and had thus broken their baptismal vows / betrayed Christianity). Cognate with Old Saxon wārlogo (“liar, unfaithful or insidious one”).

A few writers alternatively propose a derivation from Old Norse varðlokkur (“incantations, charms”, literally “ward songs”), but as the OED notes, this is implausible due to the extreme rarity of the Norse word, the semantic difference, and because forms without hard -k, which are consistent with the Old English etymology (“traitor”), are attested earlier than forms with -k, and forms with -ð- are not attested.

LukosCreyden

Saying that Arcanist isn't a Herma Mora cultist class is copium. The whole class is Herma Mora themed. It is 100% a cultist class but they try to explain that it isn't when they realized that a daedra worshipper class isn't as popular as they expected.

Elsonso

Arcanist is a daedric cultist, but that does not mean it can't be known by other names.

Aztrias

The ESO arcanist fits 'Morrowind's definition of a Warlock( but one aligned with Mora and not the House of Troubles)

Warlock description from ' Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind:

"I'm a warlock. I have bound myself by oath and deed to the service of a Daedra lord, and in return have received gifts of knowledge and power. The Temple calls my patrons the bad Daedra, and perhaps they aren't very nice... but I guess I'm not very nice, either. If you are curious, and not afraid, I can tell you a little about the bad Daedra and Daedric summonings."


Arcanist prior to this class is just a general spellcaster(skeletal arcanist, various mob arcanists etc)

Elsonso

Aztrias wrote: »

The ESO arcanist fits 'Morrowind's definition of a Warlock( but one aligned with Mora and not the House of Troubles)

Warlock description from ' Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind:

"I'm a warlock. I have bound myself by oath and deed to the service of a Daedra lord, and in return have received gifts of knowledge and power. The Temple calls my patrons the bad Daedra, and perhaps they aren't very nice... but I guess I'm not very nice, either. If you are curious, and not afraid, I can tell you a little about the bad Daedra and Daedric summonings."

A warlock is a general term for a male mage. The Arcanist might be a warlock, but a warlock does not have to be an Arcanist.

As for the "my trade" dialog in Morrowind, my opinion is that it is best to not try to extrapolate that snippet of dialog beyond the people who are saying it. They might be a warlock (or witch) but not all warlocks are them.

ghastley

Warlock was a Mages Guild rank in Oblivion. It did not imply any special affiliation with any school of magic, the way Illusionist or Mystic would.

Cultist requires a dedication to a central figure or creed, and the class does not necessarily have that relationship to Mora.

Arcanist suits the “book-learned, rather than magister-schooled” image. Self-taught mage, not university graduate.

merpins

If Arcanist is Warlock then Warden is Druid, Templar is Paladin, and Nightblade is Rogue.

It doesn't need to have general fantasy terms, and it doesn't need to be D&D-ified. The name fits from a lore perspective, just like all the classes... Sans warden I guess, since that one doesn't really represent the class identity.

VaranisArano

In Tamriel, Warlock, much like Evoker, Wizard, and Magician, is a generic rank in the Mages Guild and other institutions of magical study. There's not the same implication of making pacts with otherworldly patrons as there is in D&D or other media.

Also, uh, there's a whole bunch of cultists out there. Worm Cultists, all manner of Daedric cultists, dragon-worshipping cultists...can't hardly throw a stone 'round these parts without hitting a cultist.

tsaescishoeshiner

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Saying that Arcanist isn't a Herma Mora cultist class is copium. The whole class is Herma Mora themed. It is 100% a cultist class but they try to explain that it isn't when they realized that a daedra worshipper class isn't as popular as they expected.

Is it really different from Templars using magic based on the Resolutes of Stendarr but not necessarily being Stendarr worshippers? They're giving people room to choose their character's backstory and motives with the arcanist, which they've done since the basegame classes. Good thing, IMO. All someone needs to explain is how their character learned that magic.

Like how you can learn Conjure Seeker in TESV: Skyrim without being a Hermaeus Mora worshipper.

I don't think there's any evidence that they thought of a cultist class, changed their mind, and are now trying to hide it to trick people. Especially because they've always portrayed the classes as not having just one backstory.

Braffin

I'm not convinced, that the argument of arcanists being daedric cultists just because of their skills is a valid one.

There are several thinkable relations between any special daedric prince and a mortal being which grant the latter some of the power of the princes domain:
- being a cultist or any other form of worshipper

That said this possibility doesn't seem to be very likely especially in the case of Mora, as none of his cultist we have seen till now show such powers. Indeed we learn at Bisnensel that Mora isn't interested in the motivations or well-being of his followers at all

- the mortal has achieved somehow to gain his powers against the will of the prince. Arcane (hehe) rituals, the prince's artifacts and travels to his sphere of influence are examples for how that could be done.

One could for example decide to do the quest in Vile Manse and after reading the Discourse Amaranthine he starts to develop the classes skills

- The prince grants some of his powers either as reward for services rendered or to help the mortal in achieving something the prince is also interested in. Even a punishment is thinkable.

A few examples here too: reward for restoring peace in the Cradle of Ilmyris, granted to help the player ending the threat caused by the celestials during craglorn events, punishment for siding with the nereid in Bisnensel

- neither the mortal nor the daedric prince ahve the slightest idea how this powers were granted

Yeah, I'm assuming here that Mora isn't omniscient. At least I for myself am quite sure that he has not the slightest idea what is written on the elder scrolls. He is just a god and not the dungeon master himself

There are lots of other thinkable options than the listed, that's for sure (indeed it took me just 10 to 15 minutes to create the list above) and it's for the player to decide how exactly the relationship (if any) is designed.

Calling the arcanist a cultist would narrow down this options to plain daedra worshipping, which is at least imo quite uncreative

KeiRaikon

I highly recommend reading the new Loremaster's Archive-The Arcanists as it explains in depth many things about what an arcanist is and their powers.

To condense it, all Arcanists are people who have magically bonded with a tome touched by Apocrypha but how each Arcanist interacts with their tome is unique to them. Their powers come from Apocrypha not directly from Hermaeus Mora himself. There is always a sort of calling coming from Apocrypha but it is up to the individual on how much they listen to it. Some detach themselves (like Azandar) and see their magic as just a tool, some feel like they need to pledge themselves to Mora's will as payment for their power, while other may get obsessed with trying to find as much undiscovered knowledge as possible.

This gives each player the opportunity to create their own backstory on how they found their tome and what their bond to it is like and they can be as disconnected or as devoted to Hermaeus Mora and Apocrypha as they like.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Arcanist arent cultist by default.
I mean if they are all dragonborn getting blackbook are one or all tes character that ever used deadric weapon such as dawnbreaker are also one.
You could get your arcanist power for service rendered to mora for exemple the few time we helped him in delves/public dungeon. It could also be a way to helping us to help him in necrom for exemple. Sure arcanist are pretty much bound to mora in a way or another but not forcibly in the cultist way

Brynntastic

Arcanist is definitely a cultist AND a warlock (using the DND definition, which is what heavily inspired TES). They're a class that's, by default, an adherent to Hermaeus Mora and their power comes directly from that adherence. Pretty visual effects, though.

Aztrias

Unrelated to the name, but I wonder if an Arcanist who loses the favor of Hermaus Mora will also lose most of their powers.

That's why I'm kind of iffy about a class tied so directly to one specific prince, hard to roleplay anything but a follower/or at least an associated of Hermaus Mora.
Unlike other classes who are strong in their own right, Arcanists seem mostly dependent on daddy Mora for their power.

Elsonso

Aztrias wrote: »

Unrelated to the name, but I wonder if an Arcanist who loses the favor of Hermaus Mora will also lose most of their powers.

It seems that the Arcanist's power comes from the tome, which is linked to Apocrypha, not directly from Hermaeus Mora.

LunaFlora

Brynntastic wrote: »

Arcanist is definitely a cultist AND a warlock (using the DND definition, which is what heavily inspired TES). They're a class that's, by default, an adherent to Hermaeus Mora and their power comes directly from that adherence. Pretty visual effects, though.

arcanists don't get their power from worshipping mora nor from a contract with mora.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Elsonso wrote: »

Aztrias wrote: »

Unrelated to the name, but I wonder if an Arcanist who loses the favor of Hermaus Mora will also lose most of their powers.

It seems that the Arcanist's power comes from the tome, which is linked to Apocrypha, not directly from Hermaeus Mora.

Ah yes, linked to Apocrypha, Mora's realm. The extension of his power, the realm he made and is the ruler of. Very indirect. It's like saying something is connected to the Deadlands over Mehrunes Dagon, or to Nescafé over Nestlé. It really doesn't make a difference.

LunaFlora

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Aztrias wrote: »

Unrelated to the name, but I wonder if an Arcanist who loses the favor of Hermaus Mora will also lose most of their powers.

It seems that the Arcanist's power comes from the tome, which is linked to Apocrypha, not directly from Hermaeus Mora.

Ah yes, linked to Apocrypha, Mora's realm. The extension of his power, the realm he made and is the ruler of. Very indirect. It's like saying something is connected to the Deadlands over Mehrunes Dagon, or to Nescafé over Nestlé. It really doesn't make a difference.

Apocrypha isn't Mora and Deadlands isn't Mehrunes Dagon. Mora doesn't give Arcanists their power.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

LunaFlora wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Aztrias wrote: »

Unrelated to the name, but I wonder if an Arcanist who loses the favor of Hermaus Mora will also lose most of their powers.

It seems that the Arcanist's power comes from the tome, which is linked to Apocrypha, not directly from Hermaeus Mora.

Ah yes, linked to Apocrypha, Mora's realm. The extension of his power, the realm he made and is the ruler of. Very indirect. It's like saying something is connected to the Deadlands over Mehrunes Dagon, or to Nescafé over Nestlé. It really doesn't make a difference.

Apocrypha isn't Mora and Deadlands isn't Mehrunes Dagon. Mora doesn't give Arcanists their power.

It's his realm. He created it, he rules it, It wouldn't exist without him.

Trejgon

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

It's his realm. He created it, he rules it, It wouldn't exist without him.

And it is still the tome that allows arcanists to do anything with that power, which is intermediatery step you seem to keen on ignoring.

With loremaster article on arcanists it sounds kinda like a deal with lesser daedra that happened to originate from apocrypha.

Vanos444

Daggerfell0929 wrote: »

Lore wise I just find it odd that the class is an arcanist when given its connection to a daedric prince, hormeus modra, Cultist or Warlock would be a better fitting class name.

In Skyrim they were called Mora Cultists in the dragonborne DLC

Instead of arcanist, I believe that class should be called warlock. It matches the concept, and the green spells are a nice touch.

Eporem

This one does not like the word Cultist...though seems to prefer the label of Cipher..





and this one tells of the Ciphers:

BulletMagnetX

It comes from the Latin term "arcanum" meaning "secret". In the 18th century, arcanists were people who knew of secrets related to pottery, in particular that of making true porcelain, which was known exclusively by the Chinese until 1707. There are several known and named arcanists in real European history, such as Joseph Jakob Ringler, Robert Dubois, and Paul-Antoine Hannong and his sons Joseph-Adam and Pierre-Antoine.

In the modern age the term has come to be used for magical knowledge, stemming from authors who found it to be a useful word for magical knowledge that would have been kept hidden, ie secret knowledge of creating magic. Other creators since derived the term in relation to magic, sometimes retaining the connection to secrecy, but more often forgetting it.

We see the term in the likes of D&D and Pathfinder, where "Arcana" is a knowledge skill related to magic. And in Pathfinder the Arcanist player class, designed as a fusion of the principles of the Wizard and Sorcerer class, is described as a magical scholar, and like the wizard, they store and derive their magical knowledge in and from their spell book.

The book of magic is a common theme whenever the term "arcana" and related terms appears in fantasy. Indeed, magical secrets are almost always hidden away in books and scrolls (very rarely are they kept in other ways). And for the Daedric Lord or Knowledge, who hordes lost and forbidden tomes of all kinds within his realm, it makes perfect sense that those who derive their magical power from the secrets within and channel it through a magical book of inconceivable knowledge would call themselves Arcanists.

"Cultists"? "Warlocks"? Perhaps. But these would generally be terms used by other people who distrust them. "Arcanist" is most likely the name they gave themselves, and they are very lucky indeed that it appears to be the one that stuck.

ixthUA

In my understanding, devs secretly liked my idea of excrementalist wizard (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/584005/new-dlc-class-idea-would-you-want-it), but wanted to make it more TES-like (where no one is allowed to poop), thus arcanist.
Still, i prefer Tolkien's brown wizard.

LunaFlora

ixthUA wrote: »

In my understanding, devs secretly liked my idea of excrementalist wizard (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/584005/new-dlc-class-idea-would-you-want-it), but wanted to make it more TES-like (where no one is allowed to poop), thus arcanist.
Still, i prefer Tolkien's brown wizard.

hilarious class idea, but very probably not something zos thought about when making the arcanist class