The sad culture of Random Normals and how to mend it

Woodenplank

The Random Dungeon system has, in many cases, almost entirely taken the MMO experience out of MMO dungeons. It used to be about the challenge of needing teamwork to overcome a difficulty area, a cammeraderie of facing difficult foes and sticking together even after group wipes. This mentality can, of course, still be experienced in some of the harder Pledge runs or Trials.

But in the daily hustle and bustle of Random Normals, people dash like mad bulls for the Boss fights, or even outright leave a dungeon when they random into one that takes too long for their taste. Most people are even strong enough to solo Normals any way, and only "bother" with a Group because they need it for the Daily Rewards.
And the moment the final Boss dies, you have people rushing to leave as fast as humanly possible; onwards to their next character to repeat the ritual, having never spoken a single word in Group Chat.

People who want to experience the extent of the dungeon they're going through, new players who want to hear NPC dialogue or, at the very least, want to complete the dungeon quest on their first run, are left behind.
Sometimes advancing a quest even requires waiting for an NPC conversation to end (Vaults of Madness is a particularly bad example), and by the time they're done talking, your Group has already rushed halfway to the next Boss, leaving you to sprint through the halls to catch up, or have you yanked through time and space to "Join an Encounter in progres."
This leads to a disorienting experience for newer players, who might like to take their time, and a frustrating one for veterans who want to finish as quickly as possible.

I understand it, of course; the rush. Daily dungeons provide 10 Transmute Stones per run, making them by far the the easiest and most reliable source in the game.
Many people have 5-6 characters (hell some people even have upwards of 9, 10, or more) that they want to run a Random with every day to maximize on Transmutes and don't want to spend all day doing it. This leads to people having a "get it over with" mentality towards Random Dungeons.

So what can be done to alleviate this issue? Should something be done? I won't claim to know the mind of the entire community, nor will I claim to have all the answers, but I have some suggestions.

By reducing the number of Random Dungeons to be run, while increasing the rewards. Replacing the current system with instead having one Random Daily per account, and letting it grant, say, 50 Transmute Stones. This way people who do <=5 Characters worth of Random Dungeons per day can achieve the same result with much less effort, removing some of the stress of the "daily work" to be done.
Transmute Stones could then be worked into other activities instead. Say, a daily Account Trial (normal or vet). This would encourage more people to go to Craglorn and assemble Trial Groups, and may help more people get into that content by popularizing the easier/shorter runs, like nAA or Asylum Sanctorium.

Of course, people who were doing dailies on 9-10 characters before would see their Transmute income cut in half (though I suspect many might be secretly relieved to only have half the "schedule" per day), but again other activities could replace the Daily Randoms.

- Or perhaps additional characters could modify in Transmute income in some other way? The Undaunted line is already tied in with Dungeons.
50 Transmutes Stones per Account daily could be the starting outcome, then for every Character you own with 10/10 Undaunted skill line progression, you add, say, 5 stone to the daily rewards. This incentivizes people to do Daily Pledges or complete Dungeon Achievements to level up their Undaunted line, and also retains the rewards of having multiple Dungeon-ready characters on your sheet.

Now for some self-critisism:
If people only have to do one Dungeon per day, there's still always chance that people just rush through the single daily the same as always...
This will tend to drain the pool of characters signing up for Random Normals a tad, making it harder to find groups. On the contrary, you will only have to find a group once per day!
The mentality of rush-rush-rush might leak into Trials. Though I'd argue it already exists to some degree, transfering a 50 stone daily reward into First Trial of the Day might make things worse.

P.s. I haven't mentioned Battlegrounds because I don't want to be flooded with PVE'ers complaining about ever having to touch PVP content for anything.

Soarora

I agree; one/fewer Dungeons with greater reward would be better

I absolutely agree the problem is transmute. I’m not sure the best way to go about it but several methods could be attempted, such as the one you mention. Other options are raising the 10 transmute to 25 or increasing the transmute for vet (which in theory, rushers will die in vet… but that doesn’t always happen… that’s another subject though). Additionally, could increase ways of getting transmute like through arenas and trials.
Downside is that if less people run normals, the queue will be even longer for DPS. But I’ve found queue when you’re a low level is actually pretty fast so I wonder if the queue is just broken. Also, a better experience for new players is worth more than having to maybe wait longer I think.

VaranisArano

My approach is to be the change I want to see: I queue either as Tank or a DD/Tank with a taunt and I start off the dungeon with something like "Hi, anyone need gear or the quest?"

It sets the tone that this is a group dungeon, so even if we end up rushing as we sometimes do, we're far more likely to rush it together.

Woodenplank

I agree; one/fewer Dungeons with greater reward would be better

Soarora wrote: »

I absolutely agree the problem is transmute. I’m not sure the best way to go about it but several methods could be attempted, such as the one you mention. Other options are raising the 10 transmute to 25 or increasing the transmute for vet (which in theory, rushers will die in vet… but that doesn’t always happen… that’s another subject though). Additionally, could increase ways of getting transmute like through arenas and trials.
Downside is that if less people run normals, the queue will be even longer for DPS. But I’ve found queue when you’re a low level is actually pretty fast so I wonder if the queue is just broken. Also, a better experience for new players is worth more than having to maybe wait longer I think.

I totally agree that Veteran difficulty could/should be incorporated in a more meaningful way. In the interest of Transmute stones, there's no benefit whatsoever to choosing Veteran difficulty, as you get 10 Stones either way. So people choose Normal, letting them blaze through it even faster.

On the subject of queueing, I get that it's a pain as DD (hence why I mostly do this on my tank, but I've played all roles), but we increase number of Stones rewarded, and reduce number of runs necessary, they won't have to queue as many times.

Being extremely optimistic, there's also a chance that people will be less likely to "Fake-signup" for queue speed, if we're just talking about requiring e.g. a single vet dungeon per day.

tincanman

I disagree; there's no need to change it

I truly, deeply wish that players would look to themselves rather than trying to fix something which is not broke. The random dungeon tool works fine as is and any 'problems' are solely created by having unrealistic expectations or just not understanding what the word 'random' really means. Form your own groups/guilds/zonechat and all those imaginary 'issues' just don't exist.

So, no thanks to fixing what ain't broke.

tincanman

I disagree; there's no need to change it

nvm

Amottica

I disagree; there's no need to change it

Woodenplank wrote: »

The Random Dungeon system has, in many cases, almost entirely taken the MMO experience out of MMO dungeons. It used to be about the challenge of needing teamwork to overcome a difficulty area, a cammeraderie of facing difficult foes and sticking together even after group wipes.

The title suggests this thread is talking about normal dungeons which lack any challenge. That low challenge is intended so people can experience the dungeon without having to concern themselves over problems with mechanics and group wipes. That seems very much part of the MMO experience with dungeons since there are other titles out there that have multiple challenge levels for dungeons for the very same purpose.

Now, what the rest of the first post seems to be commenting on is GF groups running randoms in the normal dungeons where people are running the dungeons in a manner the OP does not agree with. Zenimax already provided the fix for when we have a specific manner or with a specific type of group. It is called performing the group before queuing. It works and works well. I can attest it is also easy to do.

As for queuing solo via the GF, that is asking for a random group of people with random interests and random views on how to run through the dungeon. We get what we ask for.

Woodenplank

I agree; one/fewer Dungeons with greater reward would be better

tincanman wrote: »

I truly, deeply wish that players would look to themselves rather than trying to fix something which is not broke. The random dungeon tool works fine as is and any 'problems' are solely created by having unrealistic expectations or just not understanding what the word 'random' really means. Form your own groups/guilds/zonechat and all those imaginary 'issues' just don't exist.

So, no thanks to fixing what ain't broke.

I don't think people saying 'hi' is an unrealistic expectation in an MMO - yet in many runs I'm met with absolute silence when greeting the group.
I don't think showing your three fellow humans the minimal courtesy of asking if anyone needs gear from the place before leaving is an unrealistic expectation - but a great many people do exactly that; rush off without a moment's hesitation.

Of course, you're free to like it that way. I'm just saying why I don't, and why I would like things to change. Because I believe that while the devs can't control Player behaviour, they can nudge it in a given direction - like how the most feasible way to farm Transmutes is to rush through Normal Dungeons with random teams.

Soarora

I agree; one/fewer Dungeons with greater reward would be better

tincanman wrote: »

I truly, deeply wish that players would look to themselves rather than trying to fix something which is not broke. The random dungeon tool works fine as is and any 'problems' are solely created by having unrealistic expectations or just not understanding what the word 'random' really means. Form your own groups/guilds/zonechat and all those imaginary 'issues' just don't exist.

So, no thanks to fixing what ain't broke.

It absolutely is broken. Veteran does not have the issues normal does. In a normal dungeon you have new players, rushers, and questers in the same queue. Fake roles obliterate the dungeon or die trying. I call random normal “where the people who don’t like dungeons play”. It’s not a playground of learning for new players like it should be, it’s a speedfest that has upset me as a new player and angers me as an endgamer. The argument that people should form their own group does not work here… new players don’t know any better. They’re going to queue.
In Veteran, there is an expectation that everyone runs together, explains mechanics if needed, wait for people to grab quest if they’re going to, etc. It’s a MUCH nicer environment despite being random groups. But newbies don’t have access to this, they don’t have the skill yet and won’t be able to clear. So they never get to learn the fun of dungeons. You don’t learn in a normal except that other players don’t care about you.

Edit: Besides, awarding more transmute is a win/win. People don’t have to run as many dungeons. I don’t see how that is a problem. If anything, 10 transmute is a problem in itself. It takes 2.5 randoms to reconstruct one (1) piece of gear if you have the set entirely collected. I don’t see why anyone would want to keep that system.

Amottica

I disagree; there's no need to change it

Woodenplank wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

I truly, deeply wish that players would look to themselves rather than trying to fix something which is not broke. The random dungeon tool works fine as is and any 'problems' are solely created by having unrealistic expectations or just not understanding what the word 'random' really means. Form your own groups/guilds/zonechat and all those imaginary 'issues' just don't exist.

So, no thanks to fixing what ain't broke.

I don't think people saying 'hi' is an unrealistic expectation in an MMO - yet in many runs I'm met with absolute silence when greeting the group.
I don't think showing your three fellow humans the minimal courtesy of asking if anyone needs gear from the place before leaving is an unrealistic expectation - but a great many people do exactly that; rush off without a moment's hesitation.

Of course, you're free to like it that way. I'm just saying why I don't, and why I would like things to change. Because I believe that while the devs can't control Player behaviour, they can nudge it in a given direction - like how the most feasible way to farm Transmutes is to rush through Normal Dungeons with random teams.

and yet there is no issue with a player in a random group not saying hello or asking if anyone wants or needs the gear they got. It is nice but should not be expected.

So again, if certain behavior is desired then performing the group with like-minded players is the best and an easy solution.

What is interesting is when I used to use the GF to get into dungeons, which I now run exclusively with guilds, I rarely saw anyone state they were looking for gear. If no one is posting they are looking for gear I saw no reason to note what gear dropped for me as it would clearly be a waste of time.

Necrotech_Master

I agree that something should be done, but don't agree with this post's suggestion

transmute stones do have other ways to earn them

• ToT you can earn from playing npcs or queued to play other players
• undaunted pledges (though the amount from these should be increased much higher)
• pvp (especially cyrodiil)
• the weekly trial coffers also already come with transmutes as well (though this should also probably be adjusted for difficulty)

some of those examples like the trials and undaunted pledges give far too few for the effort (pledges are 1 transmute for normal, 3 transmutes for vet, and 5 transmutes for vet HM) (trials are kind of in the same boat, doing a normal or vet trial is only like 5 transmutes per trial per character per week)

for me personally i find pvp far more effective and less mind numbing than running random normal dungeons at earning transmutes, a single session i can earn usually several of the 4-25 transmute geodes and then i end up placing high enough on the leaderboard i end up getting 2x 50 transmutes at the end of the campaign month

tincanman

I disagree; there's no need to change it

Woodenplank wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

I truly, deeply wish that players would look to themselves rather than trying to fix something which is not broke. The random dungeon tool works fine as is and any 'problems' are solely created by having unrealistic expectations or just not understanding what the word 'random' really means. Form your own groups/guilds/zonechat and all those imaginary 'issues' just don't exist.

So, no thanks to fixing what ain't broke.

I don't think people saying 'hi' is an unrealistic expectation in an MMO - yet in many runs I'm met with absolute silence when greeting the group.
I don't think showing your three fellow humans the minimal courtesy of asking if anyone needs gear from the place before leaving is an unrealistic expectation - but a great many people do exactly that; rush off without a moment's hesitation.

Of course, you're free to like it that way. I'm just saying why I don't, and why I would like things to change. Because I believe that while the devs can't control Player behaviour, they can nudge it in a given direction - like how the most feasible way to farm Transmutes is to rush through Normal Dungeons with random teams.

Courtesy is a separate issue which I did not discuss so this seems pretty meaningless in the context of my comment.

Apart from that, I play on both pc eu and pc-na and I see lots of presumably Japanese/Chinese characters in chat and wouldn't expect to respond to that (I can't read it) or for them to respond to me saying 'hi'. Ditto with pc-eu and cyrillic text.

Anyway, that's player behaviour and cultural differences which zos does not and should not interfere with unless it breaks TOS.

Luke_Flamesword

You can change system whatever you like, but it won't force people to slowly enjoy same dungeon for 50th time. After many runs you just don't want to hear all these yelling NPC and you just want to kill enemies, clear your path to the end and collect a reward. Cutting rewards will only decrease people who queue for dungeon, nothing more. It change nothing if players will make 5 fasy runs instead of 10 fast runs. Even if it will be only one possible run, they will make as fast as possible, because for them there is no reason to do it longer than it is necessary.

There should be some solo-mode for story only, without rewards for all these players who want to listen to all dialogues or even read notes. Another solution is special queue for story run, but it won't work for one reason - there will be never enough players interested in such runs so you can wait for hours.

tincanman

I disagree; there's no need to change it

Soarora wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

I truly, deeply wish that players would look to themselves rather than trying to fix something which is not broke. The random dungeon tool works fine as is and any 'problems' are solely created by having unrealistic expectations or just not understanding what the word 'random' really means. Form your own groups/guilds/zonechat and all those imaginary 'issues' just don't exist.

So, no thanks to fixing what ain't broke.

It absolutely is broken. Veteran does not have the issues normal does. In a normal dungeon you have new players, rushers, and questers in the same queue. Fake roles obliterate the dungeon or die trying. I call random normal “where the people who don’t like dungeons play”. It’s not a playground of learning for new players like it should be, it’s a speedfest that has upset me as a new player and angers me as an endgamer. The argument that people should form their own group does not work here… new players don’t know any better. They’re going to queue.
In Veteran, there is an expectation that everyone runs together, explains mechanics if needed, wait for people to grab quest if they’re going to, etc. It’s a MUCH nicer environment despite being random groups. But newbies don’t have access to this, they don’t have the skill yet and won’t be able to clear. So they never get to learn the fun of dungeons. You don’t learn in a normal except that other players don’t care about you.

Edit: Besides, awarding more transmute is a win/win. People don’t have to run as many dungeons. I don’t see how that is a problem. If anything, 10 transmute is a problem in itself. It takes 2.5 randoms to reconstruct one (1) piece of gear if you have the set entirely collected. I don’t see why anyone would want to keep that system.

I really struggle to understand why people cannot or will not understand or recognise what the word 'random' really means.

random adj.
1. Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See Synonyms at chance.
2. Mathematics & Statistics Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution.
3. Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance.

All these 'problems' described are fixed by forming your own group before using the grp finder thereby almost completely eliminating the random element from players. New players have to learn this the same as any other aspect of the game. Sure, it's not great if that epiphany comes from a crappy speed run where they've just fiddled about by the front door while the speed runners have already finished but it is what it is. It's no different from other things which new players have to deal with - 'node stealing', 'chest stealing', getting stomped on in <50 BG's by twinks or destroyed in cyro etc. And no, I'm not condoning these behaviours. Anyway, I'm pretty sure the normal queue is coded to match similar levels when possible (not cp, though) so I think there's a decent chance newer players will be with other lower levels. I've certainly noticed similar levels in groups when solo queuing if levelling a new character.

But I rarely queue for normal, usually vet if ever. I don't want the vet rewards increased because all those fakers etc referred to would just go vet with the result that players like me would stop solo queuing completely and just end up in exclusively closed groups. Or running solo (I'm not a great player but i don't have to run most base game dungeons in groups, I choose to do so and hopefully share the competence and knowledge which I gained from others).

I think a single 1/day random dungeon per account would kill the queue completely and would not change the way players currently behave other than that they'd do it 1/day rather than x-characters/day like now.

I think zos have set the transmute and other rewards to try to ensure a healthy population for the grp finder; I wouldn't be opposed to a boost for second and subsequent runs, though. Or, maybe, +1 transmutes for the undaunted delve dailies.

Incidentally, I usually say 'hi' and 'tyfg' and wait for questers and ask about 'all bosses'. Mentioning that just so this doesn't get derailed with me incorrectly labelled the poster-child for all the 'difficult' runs described.

I still think the grp finder tool ain't broke. People, though - well, that's another discussion.

Soarora

I agree; one/fewer Dungeons with greater reward would be better

tincanman wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

I truly, deeply wish that players would look to themselves rather than trying to fix something which is not broke. The random dungeon tool works fine as is and any 'problems' are solely created by having unrealistic expectations or just not understanding what the word 'random' really means. Form your own groups/guilds/zonechat and all those imaginary 'issues' just don't exist.

So, no thanks to fixing what ain't broke.

It absolutely is broken. Veteran does not have the issues normal does. In a normal dungeon you have new players, rushers, and questers in the same queue. Fake roles obliterate the dungeon or die trying. I call random normal “where the people who don’t like dungeons play”. It’s not a playground of learning for new players like it should be, it’s a speedfest that has upset me as a new player and angers me as an endgamer. The argument that people should form their own group does not work here… new players don’t know any better. They’re going to queue.
In Veteran, there is an expectation that everyone runs together, explains mechanics if needed, wait for people to grab quest if they’re going to, etc. It’s a MUCH nicer environment despite being random groups. But newbies don’t have access to this, they don’t have the skill yet and won’t be able to clear. So they never get to learn the fun of dungeons. You don’t learn in a normal except that other players don’t care about you.

Edit: Besides, awarding more transmute is a win/win. People don’t have to run as many dungeons. I don’t see how that is a problem. If anything, 10 transmute is a problem in itself. It takes 2.5 randoms to reconstruct one (1) piece of gear if you have the set entirely collected. I don’t see why anyone would want to keep that system.

I really struggle to understand why people cannot or will not understand or recognise what the word 'random' really means.

random adj.
1. Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See Synonyms at chance.
2. Mathematics & Statistics Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution.
3. Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance.

All these 'problems' described are fixed by forming your own group before using the grp finder thereby almost completely eliminating the random element from players. New players have to learn this the same as any other aspect of the game. Sure, it's not great if that epiphany comes from a crappy speed run where they've just fiddled about by the front door while the speed runners have already finished but it is what it is. It's no different from other things which new players have to deal with - 'node stealing', 'chest stealing', getting stomped on in <50 BG's by twinks or destroyed in cyro etc. And no, I'm not condoning these behaviours. Anyway, I'm pretty sure the normal queue is coded to match similar levels when possible (not cp, though) so I think there's a decent chance newer players will be with other lower levels. I've certainly noticed similar levels in groups when solo queuing if levelling a new character.

But I rarely queue for normal, usually vet if ever. I don't want the vet rewards increased because all those fakers etc referred to would just go vet with the result that players like me would stop solo queuing completely and just end up in exclusively closed groups. Or running solo (I'm not a great player but i don't have to run most base game dungeons in groups, I choose to do so and hopefully share the competence and knowledge which I gained from others).

I think a single 1/day random dungeon per account would kill the queue completely and would not change the way players currently behave other than that they'd do it 1/day rather than x-characters/day like now.

I think zos have set the transmute and other rewards to try to ensure a healthy population for the grp finder; I wouldn't be opposed to a boost for second and subsequent runs, though. Or, maybe, +1 transmutes for the undaunted delve dailies.

Incidentally, I usually say 'hi' and 'tyfg' and wait for questers and ask about 'all bosses'. Mentioning that just so this doesn't get derailed with me incorrectly labelled the poster-child for all the 'difficult' runs described.

I still think the grp finder tool ain't broke. People, though - well, that's another discussion.

I don’t understand why you’ve cited the definition of random. I know what it means. That doesn’t mean that the pool should be so toxic. Like I said, RANDOM Veteran is fine. I don’t think new players should have to suffer and possibly end up quitting dungeons because of people rushing through. And like I said, increasing the transmute reward benefits everyone. Having to do 2.5 runs to recon 1 piece of gear if the set is fully collected is ridiculous.
I’ve noticed the level scaling as well. That said, I still see lots of complaints about people running through dungeons on normal.

I have the same concern about increasing Veteran rewards to be more than normal. I just suggested it as something that could be attempted because people who run ahead and don’t do mechanics usually die. If they don’t die, well… let’s just say they’ve opted to tank and I take a break.

It might. But I don’t think people who don’t want to do dungeons should be doing them. Besides, I think queue is broken. I absolutely do not trust the queue timer issues when queueing as a partial group takes longer than solo queueing. Queueing as a tank and dps, the dps has to queue? Or else the queue takes way longer? I don’t think it’s a valid metric. It is true that people would probably still just speedrun one dungeon. Thus, I think more transmute rewards should be increased as well. Every endgame playerbase needs a good source of transmute since people have to change gear quite often.

Transmute’s way too rare. Almost all sources should be increased. It’s another grind and to be frank I’m starting to find it insulting considering how much grind is in the game plus meta gear switches nearly every update. And again, I don’t think people should be doing content they don’t want to. It’s not healthy for the other 3 member enjoyment and it’s not healthy for the rusher. Dungeons don’t feel validated as real content but rather “skill points and transmute farm”.

I hope you don’t take this as an attack on you. If you aren’t doing normals you can’t really be contributing to the problem.

tincanman

I disagree; there's no need to change it

Sorry, didn't mean to appear condescending with random definition, thought it might be useful to be on same page and not assume native english speaker. Also, I do get really confused how people have expectations of a tool that by definition is going to throw you together with just about anyone.

Most of the issues described are behavioural and I don't think it's zos place to get involved in that, except in TOS violations. I also don't think there's any practical way for them to 'fix' that aspect anyway other than removing transmutes altogether from daily random dungeons. I guess if transmutes were not there then the players would be wherever they were moved to.

I generally don't do dungeons for transmutes but I can understand the pressure some players may feel if they don't pvp and random dungeons on mutliple characters is their primary source. I'm not sure I'd be as willing to slow down either in that case. Which brings us back to the random aspect of the random dungeon: up to 4 different players with differing goals and time or other constraints. And those differences would best be normalised within a pre-formed group.

I haven't noticed the glitches with partial groups queueing. That sounds like a bug that needs fixing so the tool works as advertised.

But the transmute availability seems to be a completely separate issue from the random dungeon courtesy one. I do agree that more and diverse sources would be better overall. Maybe a few as a possible drop in craft dailies, and the undaunted delve dailies another +1 per delve (up to 15 per day) or a few in daily login rewards or from antiquities?

@Soarora wrote:

..I hope you don’t take this as an attack on you

No.

chessalavakia_ESO

I agree that something should be done, but don't agree with this post's suggestion

Personally, I think a bot based approach or more complicated reward approach might work better.

If you've done dungeons much with a companion, you've probably noticed that much of the time the companion does a decent job with a few exceptions where it royally botches things.

This suggests that with some tweaking, you could probably have a bot take over some of the slots in the dungeon queue if sufficient population wasn't present and people wanted faster queues.

In turn, this would permit splitting up the players in queue towards more specific options as you could fill shortages with bots. So, you could have a separate queue for people that just want to rush to get done with content fast and a queue for people that want to do all the bonus bosses or do the quests. As you would be with like minded people you might see better interactions.

Another option would be to shift rewards away from primarily being about rapid completion. Give the content that can be skipped a chance at providing transmutes/boss drops. Instead of giving a flat reward for completion give a reward based on the average duration of the dungeon with a bonus for if it takes a bit longer and another bonus for if the quest is completed by someone.

Necrotech_Master

I agree that something should be done, but don't agree with this post's suggestion

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Another option would be to shift rewards away from primarily being about rapid completion. Give the content that can be skipped a chance at providing transmutes/boss drops. Instead of giving a flat reward for completion give a reward based on the average duration of the dungeon with a bonus for if it takes a bit longer and another bonus for if the quest is completed by someone.

on this part specifically, it probably should not count the dungeon as complete if all bosses were not killed for queue rewards

there are many dungeons (mostly older ones) with skippable bosses since they only need the final boss killed to count it as cleared (which is why most people prefer getting something like FG1 every queue since theres only like 2 bosses you actually have to kill in there out of the 5)

DarcyMardin

I agree that something should be done, but don't agree with this post's suggestion

I don’t even do random dungeons any more, because of the speed running. I’d actually prefer to mend walls in Cyrodiil for crystals, and I don’t even like PvP.

ESO should provide many more ways to get crystals in the actual game. As in quest rewards, for example, since most quest rewards, especially in the original areas of the game, like the main story, are now terrible.

I’d also double the number of crystals one can get for running vet dungeons, while keeping it the same for normals. This would motivate some of the top-tier players who can easily do the vets to run those instead. And I’d award more crystals for DLC dungeons to coax folks to do them rather than leaving group as soon as they zone in.

Low level new players and folks who are trying to do the quests on normal dungeons on their alts are *really sick and tired* of the skip-mobs, skip-bosses, take-short-cuts speed runners!

pelle412

I agree that something should be done, but don't agree with this post's suggestion

I think the rewards for random normal should be smaller than what it is today and have a second tier of rewards for completing a random vet. The transmute reward for random normal should be less than what you get for a regular veteran pledge, which should be less than a random vet. Dungeons should be a way to get transmutes for sure, but the largest source of them should be from Alliance War.

El_Borracho

I disagree; there's no need to change it

I do the random normal more often to level up skills when necessary. For example, a new tank or healer where I can get a massive XP dump at the end on multiple skills. To that end, it is preferable to have a speedy group. PVP is a much better source for transmutes, but I understand that PVE only players use the random daily.

Quick hits on the two main issues, as this has been discussed on countless threads. Questers: use the group chat to let the group know you are on the quest. Most players will respect that and slow down. Dialogue: Please stop with this. Its such a small group of players that want to experience all of the dialogue in dungeons that its a niche problem. Sorry, it is. This is akin to the player that wants to read all of the books or talk to all of the NPCs, like the ones in City of Ash 2. Form a group of like-minded players. Forcing the overwhelming majority of players to move at the pace of the slowest player would absolutely ruin dungeons.

As to limiting the number of random dailies someone can run, how would discouraging more dungeon runs encourage more people to play dungeons? Outside of pledges, the random daily is typically why I run a dungeon, which I believe is the way most players do as well. Unless I'm on a new character in need of easy XP and skill points, or I am farming a set or lead, or if there is an event I need in a specific dungeon, I can't remember the last time I queued for a specific dungeon just to play that dungeon. Removing the incentive for a tank or healer to run a dungeon is going to result in longer GF wait times and less people playing.

I would be fine with upping the rewards for the random vet, seems silly that they are the same. But that is not going to solve speed runs through dungeons.

Brrrofski

I disagree; there's no need to change it

The thing is, if people don't have to run so many, you'll have a hard time filling the dungeon you want to run.

Give me 50 transmutes and 500k xp for one dungeon, I'll still rush through that one that I have to do and not do any others.

If someone says they're doing the quest, I'll give them time. But not to read all the dialogue etc.

So slowing down to experience the dungeon won't even matter.

You probably won't even get a group to do it.

Aelorin

I agree that something should be done, but don't agree with this post's suggestion

I hate speed runners charging forward, not saying a word, not paying attention to the need of the other players. I don't think these people will stop speed running when the rewards are increased.

For me it should be standard gaming etiquette: you are in a group, so you adjust to the needs of your group.

I'm not really sure how solve this problem? Maybe divide the rnd groups in rnd - speed, and rnd - casual?

Also there should be a story mode where you can go in solo with 3 companions and enjoy the story at your own pace.

MidniteOwl1913

I agree that something should be done, but don't agree with this post's suggestion

Speed runners are the worst. They have ruined normal dungeons for me. The fakes don't help either. They do tend to go hand in hand. The "healer" or "tank" who is always 2 screens ahead isn't supporting the party much...

I think that reducing the number of transmutes for normals to 5 and leaving the 10 for vet would help. It will reduce the incentive to run normal. ZOS could also help by buffing tanks and healers so they have the tools to provide more real support.

There will be the undaunted pledge runs, but that's limited.

And yes, it really is a sad state right now.

Jaimeh

You don't run a random normal from the finder if you want to experience the story, it's better to do it with a premade group, or in guilds specializing in story mode runs. You also don't run a random normal to overcome challenging content as a group, that's for vet DLC runs. Even if it was once per day, players would still want to hurry, because they have done base dungeons countless times and it's tedious. The rush is not only because of the grind for xp farm or transmutes, it's because to a 8-year player some of the easier and older dungeons have become a bit tedious to go super slowly through.

endgamesmug

I disagree; there's no need to change it

Lately ive been duoing with new players vet base pledges, its been alot of fun and they get to pick up some useful skills and awareness. Rather than this tank/healer/dps setup being peddled in normals as somehow helpful, i believe it now does the opposite. Times have simply changed and people have moved with them, with the potential to grow an even more capable player base in the future.

Paramedicus

it is pretty bad, that vet players are encouraged to run normal content. This is main source of poo experience for new players. Back in old good days it was actually fun to run normal dungs, because it was challenging if you were new.

and BTW wth with pulling random-definition-card everytime when there is topic about running with randoms? Random meams that you should expect that you may end up in bad pug, but it doesnt mean that you should be O.K with it. Same as, if you are driving a car you should expect that you may meet some crazy driver on the road, but it doesnt mean you should be OK with it.

fleetingyouth_ESO

I agree that something should be done, but don't agree with this post's suggestion

I like everyone don't have the answers but I have seen a lot of other MMO's that end up with these same issues and have attempted to solve it.

The core issue is balancing the LFG so that players are incentivized to help other players complete dungeons, quests, and achievements. While not making the incentives so valuable that players feel the need to farm and rush. This is not easy and would need constant adjustment as the game changes.

I have always thought with ESO that transmutes need to be available in a lot more ways which it seems the devs are doing as you can get a lot more transmutes in a shorter time from doing ToT matches. You can also get them from battlegrounds and arenas, but there could be a more solo/casual way to get them similar to endeavors I believe.

This as mentioned would also lead to fewer dungeon pops for those who need to run dungeons through the queuing system.
Unfortunately, the LFG system no longer serves its original purpose as transmutes have become ever more important over the years. LFG is supposed to help players who can not form a group, find a group, and the daily rewards players or incentives them to help those players complete a dungeon. It does not do this anymore it incentives rushing to get the xp and transmutes and punishes those who need help doing the quest or finding a group etc.

If you could get transmutes easier in other ways and reward players for helping complete dungeons then you might get the best of both worlds.

You might accomplish this with higher rewards for completing a dungeon with a player who has the quest. For killing all the mobs/bosses in a dungeon. Or by creating a queue specifically for those needing help with a different reward system that is harder to take advantage of. Of course, all these solutions would require a lot of changes to how dungeons work so are less likely. They may also result in the same issues lower queuing for those who need it or rushing/cheesing dungeons for the rewards.

M0ntie

I agree there is a problem that needs fixing. The number of forum threads on this is very high.
Avoiding using the dungeon finder by making your own group is NOT fixing a problem - it AVOIDING it.

If you're going to quote the meaning of the word "random", you need to quote what SIGNING UP FOR THE ROLE "healer" and "tank" means. By selecting this role, you are saying that you'll do the role so for a tank it is taunt stuff and don't die, and for a healer it is provide sufficient healing for the group.
My suggestion to solve this is to make a check box for the random dungeon finder for dps (who have the big queue time) that says "OK to queue with 4 dps". Then people who are OK with fake roles (ie dps) can run in a group together. If you don't tick the check box and you're queuing as tank you must have a taunt, and if you're queuing as healer, you must have at least 1 group heal ability. Simple and everyone can play as they want.

There needs to be ways for PVE players to get more transmutes other than speed running random daily dungeons. You can get 50 transmutes in PVP in Cyro in 1-2 hours easily by getting to tier 1 - plus rewards for the worthy. This is about as much time as a trial takes so it miserable to only award 5 transmutes. Increase transmute rewards for DLC dungeons, vet dungeons and trials.

WySoSirius

I agree that something should be done, but don't agree with this post's suggestion

Myself and my wife enjoy doing random dungeons , and with the fake tanks fake healers and the runners that make a mess of trash mobs and staying in combat etc , we would prefer getting the xp reward with a 2 person or with a companion each dungeon instead so we could just not have to deal with the current pug experience

Deter1UK

@ZOS_Kevin

Part of the problem is giving transmute stones as an end reward for completing the dungeon so people rush ahead to finish...

Why Not ... Guaranteed Drop of two stones from each boss and a guaranteed drop of 4 stones At Random from trash mobs and chests.

At least the rushers have to slow down and clear the dungeon if they really want ALL the stones.

It would be a start at least towards solving a contentious issue.