Tales of Tribute turn timer is too forgiving, should be more dynamic to avoid intentional stalling

Arnoldthehawk

The current timer IN RANKED matches gives intentional stallers a weapon to use against honest players, and a way for beginners to make RANKED matches painfully slow. There is a reason for practice mode, where the timer should understandably let players more time to think, but this game is intended to be fast paced, and the current timer is too forgiving.

Give 20 seconds for every turn, then give 1 more second for each time a card combos with another. This way you would get more time based on the combinations, therefor the increased complicatedness, while won't ruin the match for the other player by using up all your time every time each turn.

I can't count the number of times when I just simply concede even winning matches because the other player was slow as hell.

sekou_trayvond

Your last paragraph is why you see more than a few peeps playing very slowly- to get easy concede dubs. Don't condone it, but it's definitely a thing.

I like the idea of a shorter timer. Not sure where the sweet spot is tho.

Treeshka

I agree that the initial time should be very lower compared to current ninety seconds, and adjusted turn time should increase with combos. Just give a few more seconds for each combo a player does. If this does not happen at least first three or five turns should not be ninety seconds long.

jowv

Arnoldthehawk wrote: »

The current timer IN RANKED matches…

Give 20 seconds for every turn, then give 1 more second for each time a card combos with another. This way you would get more time based on the combinations, therefor the increased complicatedness, while won't ruin the match for the other player by using up all your time every time each turn.

That would be me out of PvP ToT straight away then, I timed it, and it takes me 10 seconds to turn over my initial 5 draw cards most of the time. Leave no time at all for me to consider options, buy cards or select patrons, let alone 1 sec for additional combos. For me this would be completely unplayable.

Arnoldthehawk

Well, with the current system, it forces me and my friends out of ToT, since playing against stallers is more than just not fun, its painful. Make no mistake, we are talking about ranked here, and ranked - as in with anything - should be the place of competitive matches, not slow, "I just begun, please be patient with me" matches. ToT offers plenty of options to play friendly or less competitive matches otherwise, so ranked should be for those who are capable. Or ZOS should just create a separate, fast paced mode, with the settings mentioned above, I'd be down for that too. Anything, but this slow version it is now.

efster

Not everyone playing ranked matches is a seasoned veteran interested in SeriOuS CompeTiTion. Some of us are just there to get our 100 match achievement and then we will go back to playing for fun against our friends on our own time and out of the queue. 20 seconds would be way too punishing for us players who genuinely are not that great at or interested in the game and are just plodding through for the achievement.

I didn't even realise deliberate stalling was a *tactic* people used to get others to concede. Does that actually make those folks feel like they've won a *Tribute* match? Buddy, you won a contest for who has more free time on their hands, don't get it twisted, get a job instead. 🤣

Arnoldthehawk

If there is a way to workaround a "challange" there are always be the those kind of people who find the most dirty one, this is nothing new, unfortunately.

I understand that for some people it is a challange to get through the ranked achievements and reducing the turn time would make it harder, but then again, this is ranked, and you are trying to achieve something, hence called achievement. Farming ranked on non-ranked setting (like the current insanely long timer) is no achievement. It is just what it is, farming. What I'm trying to tell with this that when this change is considered by actual developers this "I'm not actually interested in the game to play ranked, but I need the achievement" viewpoint shouldn't be relevant, since the priority should be the needs of the playerbase that plays it for what it is, and don't just use it as means to reach something gameplay-wise non-related thing.

Zyva

I often take an entire turn to make decisions lol. And sometimes almost time out, especially if playing the crow patron. So while I understand the pain of people who get against stallers (and have run into them myself), I personally like having 90 seconds. If I suspect someone of stalling, I write down their name and if I get them again pick rhajin and spend the entire match making it as long as possible out of spite <.<

Zyva

And to add to above, you can usually tell someone who stalls vs someone who is thinking. They will play cards just slowly, or youll see lots of combos, and its not consistent. The stallers, they make their move quickly and then just let the timer run out. every single turn.

Arnoldthehawk

Actually, you can't be sure who is a staller and who is a genuine beginner. Doesn't really matter. And as I mentioned in my original post, stallers are only one side of the problem, people using up their whole 90 seconds each or even just multiple turns makes the ranked feel like a beginner table, but more importantly kills the fun and incentive to play ranked at all. Ranked should hold some meaning, and whoever I talked about this topic - let it be online or IRL - all agreed that the current turn timer is too forgiving, and often ends with concede on their part, rather than playing for more 10-15 minutes, taking the opponent turn 1 minutes and 30 seconds or just slightly less each turn. They can get that match reward easier during that time with other acitivty, so they end up losing nothing, but gaining bad experience from something that should appeal to them, the players who actually play the game for what it is, not just getting through for a daily, an achievement or anything gameplay-wise unrelated.

You can always play practice and/or with friends and NPCs. Only a small part of the ToT achievements are actually needed to play in ranked, so that isn't really a good argument.

Eric_Prince

Try for once to play Psijic + Hunding + Crow (which is extremely powerful in the right hands). Then you'll notice that timer is way too short.
You'll be out of time while you're planning your perfect combo.

Arnoldthehawk

I usually play Crow+Hunding, or Crow+Psijic, Psijic+Hunding or any of these three with the Black Drake one. I know what I'm talking about.

Besides, I mentioned that I would change the system to be dynamic and increase your time based on the number of combinations, that would be only fair.

Sheridan

20 seconds for a turn? But it's a tactical card game, not Beat Saber. It's about being smart, not being fast - including the ranked games (and in my opinion, especially the ranked games). I understand that this system can be exploited by griefers (alot of things can, and yes, if there is a way, there always will be people who will find the dirty one), and I don't condone or support that in any way, but you want to punish normal players as well because you can't deal with your impatience and wait for another half-minute. While for you the idea of "fun" could mean plowing through the match as fast as possible, for others it can be fun to think about their moves and consider their options with the cards, given plenty of opportunities. The less time to think, the less strategic the game becomes. Make the turns 1 second and it's just a random clicking.

That said, I can agree that the current timer can be considered a bit excessive. But in my opinion, it should be no less than 60 seconds at least, and 20 is the opposite extreme.

I don't mind the idea of a separate "blitz" mode as well - no additional rewards, usual rankings etc. so noone would be forced into it; simply for the people with less free time.

Arnoldthehawk wrote: »

this game is intended to be fast paced

I don't recall that it was stated as such. Maybe it's the wrong premise that led you to the wrong conclusions?

efster

Just because something is an achievement does not actually mean it is intended to be difficult or even challenging. It is neither challenging nor difficult to kill 600 lamias in Tempest Island, it just takes a really long time to do it, because there are only so many lamias per instance. It's exactly the same with ToT 100 ranked match achievement; the matches are only a real challenge if you come up against a seasoned player who has refined a strategy and thinks ahead several moves. Most of the time it's just a couple of players yeeting cards at each other for some time.

60 seconds down from 90, sure. But 20 seconds is completely unreasonable. They could really make a "battleground" for ranked ToT so people can play against opponents of their choice, anyway, it's stupid that it forces you to play against strangers. OR they could at least introduce a timed mode into the queue tool (Ranked Competitive - Timed) so people who want to play super fast can have that option.

FrancisCrawford

Arnoldthehawk wrote: »

I usually play Crow+Hunding, or Crow+Psijic, Psijic+Hunding or any of these three with the Black Drake one. I know what I'm talking about.

Besides, I mentioned that I would change the system to be dynamic and increase your time based on the number of combinations, that would be only fair.

I don't know why combinations is a good metric.

You definitely could count by number of cards played. Somebody playing a long crowburst needs and deserves more time than somebody playing just 5 cards.

Also, people need more time if there are more choices, as is the case when they play Hunding cards, or cards with toss, or cards with refresh, etc. -- or just if they build up a lot of gold and have multiple choices in what to buy.

I've only played against NPCs so far, but a number of my turns are quite slow.

---

One option that might work would be like a chess clock. Chess has long given you a certain amount of time either for the entire game, or for your first 40 moves, or whatever. Now with digital technology it is common to give X minutes for the whole game, incremented by Y seconds each move.

In Tribute I might increment per card rather than per turn, or better yet per play -- e.g., per card, with cards that offer choices getting more of an increment than those that don't -- or better yet in a combo of those two.

SilverBride

They really need to shorten the timer to 60 seconds or less. There are 5 cards to start our turns with every hand. There is only so much you can do with them.

While my opponent is playing their hand I figure out what will happen when I play my cards and if using a patron would be beneficial. That does not take 90 seconds.

Part of gaining skill is being able to play our hand in an efficient manner.

Sheridan

SilverBride wrote: »

Part of gaining skill is being able to play our hand in an efficient manner.

But efficient in a card game does not equal to "fast". You don't throw cards at each other's face while trying to dodge them.

GOAT4EVAR

30sec max per turn at any stage, you also have time to think during the other persons turn.

Arnoldthehawk

30 seconds would be fine for me too. Maybe the 20 seconds was a bit harsh number to start the argument, but 60 seconds still an unnecessary long time. As GOAT4EVAR mentioned above, you also have time to think in your opponent's turn.

SilverBride

Sheridan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Part of gaining skill is being able to play our hand in an efficient manner.

But efficient in a card game does not equal to "fast". You don't throw cards at each other's face while trying to dodge them.

Efficient is the same in a card game as anywhere else. Staring at our cards for 60 seconds and still not being sure what we should do next is not efficient use of our time, or our opponent's. We should have most of that figured out before our time even begins.

MaraxusTheOrc

Timer is fine as is. I’m a rubedite/top 20% player, so at least have games under my belt. Not everything in this game has to be a “sprint sprint sprint get the match over as quickly as possible.”

Veryamedliel

Sheridan wrote: »

20 seconds for a turn? But it's a tactical card game, not Beat Saber. It's about being smart, not being fast - including the ranked games (and in my opinion, especially the ranked games). I understand that this system can be exploited by griefers (alot of things can, and yes, if there is a way, there always will be people who will find the dirty one), and I don't condone or support that in any way, but you want to punish normal players as well because you can't deal with your impatience and wait for another half-minute. While for you the idea of "fun" could mean plowing through the match as fast as possible, for others it can be fun to think about their moves and consider their options with the cards, given plenty of opportunities. The less time to think, the less strategic the game becomes. Make the turns 1 second and it's just a random clicking.

That said, I can agree that the current timer can be considered a bit excessive. But in my opinion, it should be no less than 60 seconds at least, and 20 is the opposite extreme.

I don't mind the idea of a separate "blitz" mode as well - no additional rewards, usual rankings etc. so noone would be forced into it; simply for the people with less free time.

Arnoldthehawk wrote: »

this game is intended to be fast paced

I don't recall that it was stated as such. Maybe it's the wrong premise that led you to the wrong conclusions?

This basically. If you don't have the patience to wait a mere 90 sec for your turn that's your problem, not the opponent's. Just because you have an easy hand doesn't make it so for your opponent. It has nothing to do with skill (although having it helps) but everything with the hand you've got and the deck you're playing with. Some decks require more time than say an Orgnum deck, which is pretty straight-forward. Auto-flip all the way.

And yes, everything that can be abused will be abused. That's how every game works. Get used to it. Changing it to 60 sec would be fine-ish, but I prefer it to remain at 90,

But it's not that simple.
For one thing, you'd have to do the same with the starting players playing against NPC's. How else would they get used to the 30 time "penalty" in ranked if they don't experience it? That's just unfair. You don't start imposing a penalty to the game just because you're playing ranked. That doesn't happen in chess or any other timed game I know of, so why would it have to be so with Tales of Tribute?

And second, I really see no reason to adjust the allotted time at all. 90 seconds isn't that long and if someone was stalling (which I rarely experience and I've been in the top 50 since the game was introduced so I've played a fair few games), oh well, time to get myself a drink. I rarely need the full 90 seconds myself, so even if I return late, I'll manage. And then my opponent can wait on me. Of course, if I have a deck or hand that does requires more time, I'll just be patient like everyone else (should be). It won't kill you and it might even learn you something (like patience).

If people want a blitz mode where the rewards and ranking system are the same as they are now, fine, but I sure won't be joining it.

Arnoldthehawk

90 seconds isn't a long time, if it happens just once, or even twice. But it is a long time when the opponent player abusing it, or just simple using up this time every turn due to their lack of knowledge. 90 seconds is too much time, this is the majority of opinion, and maybe not here on the forums, but both in facebook groups, reddit and especially ingame this is the most vocal opinion on the matter. But all of them worth nothing, if someone won't bring it here to developers to see.

If you can't solve your hand in 30-40 seconds top (even with massive combinations, that is more than enough), you shouldn't play ranked. Play practice or fight NPCs, maybe practice with friends, then join ranked. Until then, ranked should be competitive, as in every game it is.

SilverBride

Veryamedliel wrote: »

I'll just be patient like everyone else (should be). It won't kill you and it might even learn you something (like patience).

There is a difference between learning patience in situations that require it, such as waiting for a package to arrive, and situations that don't. We know that it will take several days for our item to reach us so even though we want it now we patiently accept that we have to wait for it.

Sitting for the full 90 seconds while our opponent isn't even making any plays, then finally plays their cards and ends their turn at the last second is not a necessary action that requires us to be patient about.

We accept that a new player may take a bit longer, but as they gain experience they should be proficient enough to make quicker choices.

Inaya

Leave it at 90 seconds but monitor inactivity and deduct seconds from the timer.

Amottica

sekou_trayvond wrote: »

Your last paragraph is why you see more than a few peeps playing very slowly- to get easy concede dubs. Don't condone it, but it's definitely a thing.

I like the idea of a shorter timer. Not sure where the sweet spot is tho.

Agree. Less experienced players deserve enough time as it would be bad for the game to drive away such players. Finding a middle ground would be important. Regardless of how much time is provided, there will still be players who purposely stall the match. Just wait them out so they do not win with such shenanigans.

Punches_Below_Belt

The matches are already time consuming and not profitable. You can do a dungeon in less time than a game of Tribute, assuming you have a group and don’t have to count on the sadly inadequate group finder. Why people play Tribute is beyond me.

90 seconds of watching someone, who got some lucky draws, flipping purple cards? Who designs a two person game where the goal of one player can be to prevent the other player from playing for 80% of the time? Operation Fun-fail.

Play away if you enjoy it. But to me, you are not playing ESO. You are playing a mobile game. Maybe that is the point. Get as many people as possible occupied with some distraction that is low demand for the servers.

Veryamedliel

SilverBride wrote: »

Veryamedliel wrote: »

I'll just be patient like everyone else (should be). It won't kill you and it might even learn you something (like patience).

There is a difference between learning patience in situations that require it, such as waiting for a package to arrive, and situations that don't. We know that it will take several days for our item to reach us so even though we want it now we patiently accept that we have to wait for it.

And you know beforehand you have to wait 90 sec max before your next turn. I don't really see the difference or problem. In fact, it's even better than waiting for a package, for which you may have to spend an entire day waiting at the delivery location to get it. Waiting 90 sec is nothing compared to that.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

drakhan2002_ESO

I had no idea this was a strategy being used. THANK YOU so much for enlightening me on this new way to play ranked ToT. I will now incorporate this into my ranked play! I love this idea to win!

spartaxoxo

https://youtu.be/gwGqn7MnWRQ

Yup, people do this mostly to be a sore loser. I can't imagine it usually works as anything more.

SilverBride

Amottica wrote: »

Less experienced players deserve enough time as it would be bad for the game to drive away such players.

This is season 3. The game knows by now which players are new and which are experienced and should be matching them based on this. Experienced players should know most of the cards by now and not need to closely peruse every one before making a play.