Warden overpowered

Araneae6537

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I agree with React that HP stacking wardens need a nerf. Polar Wind could probably be toned down a little. I don't like the suggested change to the Maturation passive. I agree with it in spirit but not in practice. Right now the passive buff they get is a named one: Minor Toughness. I'm not sure how many ways to get this buff there are... But there is at least one gear set that gives it (warrior poet I think?) And honestly we just want to make sure they don't turn around and stack minor Toughness with the new flat value for even MORE HP than before the nerf.

polar wind is the main issue here, arctic blast is a very bloated skill but i don't think it's a large issue, i'd rather see it's heal taken off of it for cleanliness reasons within the class's trees, but i understand that it's probably fine as it currently is. people's issues seem to stem from polar being an insanely strong hp based burst heal with a good heal over time attached to it. high hp builds are an issue made worse by hp scaling heals.

Thematically, it does seems strange to have healing from a frost skill, especially with two other trees that would seem a better fit. I would rather frost be primarily damage and snares.

ESO_Nightingale

OBJnoob wrote: »

Agreed in general but specifically in this case that wasn't the problem. They made it clear which morph they meant because their problem was the stun. I feel like the warden combo is still pretty wonky and the stun is necessary. And I warned them that if you take the stun off Arctic then everybody will run Polar and they'll be left with an even bigger problem.

The stun is definitely fine, it's blockable once again and only works in a 6m aoe from the caster. We needed an on demand stun for our burst. They just need to understand that that is what every class needs.

OBJnoob

I don't disagree that "damage and snares" makes sense thematically for ice, but we can't ignore that they already have a damage skill line. The ice line is obviously for defense-- from the actives to the passives, and a heal fits perfectly fine into a defensive toolkit. Let's not redesign things just to make sense when they already make sense.

Araneae6537

OBJnoob wrote: »

I don't disagree that "damage and snares" makes sense thematically for ice, but we can't ignore that they already have a damage skill line. The ice line is obviously for defense-- from the actives to the passives, and a heal fits perfectly fine into a defensive toolkit. Let's not redesign things just to make sense when they already make sense.

But such a clear division between skill line utility is, IMHO, rather boring. I don’t see any reason why there couldn’t be both offensive and defensive morphs of more ice skills, especially since we don’t have a separate cryomancer class. If skills are needed for both defense and healing, I would rather see different morphs in the green balance skills rather than simply magicka and stamina morphs. I think that would create greater variety for builds, whether you want nature or ice theme for damage or a tankier build, and having one skill that does everything does seem likely to either be overpowered and must-use by all, or underpowered and of no use to all.

Miracle19

React wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

React wrote: »

Honestly, I don't think warden is broken by any means. There are certain parts of their toolkit that need improvements, even. There are only a few things I'd suggest be nerfed.

As far as nerfs go, the only things I'd suggest nerfing are;

• Maturation - This passive should be changed to provide a flat health bonus, such as 1250 health, rather than 10% HP. Max health is a huge problem right now in PVP, and this passive probably provides more health from one single source than any other source in the game.
• Slab/crystalized shield - The secondary effects of both of these skills are fine, but the value of the projectile absorption shield itself needs to be lowered. It is currently designed in a way that makes each of the 3 shields absorb more damage than any ranged attack in the entire game could possibly deal. With the cost refund that they proc upon absorption, this skill effectively makes a warden unkillable by any ranged spec in the game.
• Netch - The purge from this ability procs once every 5 seconds while it is active. However, if you spam it, you can proc both the heal passive from that skill line and the purge from netch once per cast. The purge should only be possible once per 5 seconds. Just add a 5s cooldown to the purge so that it can still be spammed as an additional HOT, but not as a cleanse.
• Polar Wind - This heal is absurdly broken now. With how easily achievable 40k HP is on a "damage" oriented build now, we are often seeing players running full damage with 40kp hp and hitting themselves and others for 15K+ polars with a 3k hot attached to it. I'm not sure what the best way to go about adjusting this is, but it absolutely needs to be nerfed from it's current version. This is probably the strongest heal in the game right now.

Honestly netch spamming to purge negitive effects is fine, that's a lot of gcds they're giving up to clear negitive effects and it's not possible to do it mid-fight. Also as a warden player I'd argue that our mag/stam scaling self burst heal shouldn't even be on arctic blast. We literally have an entire healing line dedicated to it that doesn't even do the job properly. Blast could lose it to gain a cost reduction or some dot damage increase.

That's fair. My main issue with the netch purge is that these 40k+ hp wardens can sit there spamming it at 0 resource cost while laughing at your complete inability to deal damage to them, especially in 1v1 scenarios.

I agree about arctic and polar. It was always bizarre that they chose to make that into a burst heal and rework it multiple times, rather than buff the spore heals that are already burst heals which nobody uses. I agree that changing these skills to be stuns/dots/whatever while removing their burst heals, and instead shifting that burst healing to the spores would be a good change.

I mean 40k hp wardens are all defense and no damage right, so where’s the harm. Aren’t they like healers, why would you nerf a healers role

ESO_Nightingale

Araneae6537 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I don't disagree that "damage and snares" makes sense thematically for ice, but we can't ignore that they already have a damage skill line. The ice line is obviously for defense-- from the actives to the passives, and a heal fits perfectly fine into a defensive toolkit. Let's not redesign things just to make sense when they already make sense.

But such a clear division between skill line utility is, IMHO, rather boring. I don’t see any reason why there couldn’t be both offensive and defensive morphs of more ice skills, especially since we don’t have a separate cryomancer class. If skills are needed for both defense and healing, I would rather see different morphs in the green balance skills rather than simply magicka and stamina morphs. I think that would create greater variety for builds, whether you want nature or ice theme for damage or a tankier build, and having one skill that does everything does seem likely to either be overpowered and must-use by all, or underpowered and of no use to all.

Yeah we've been arguing this for ages. Having 2 tank morphs for skills like frozen gate only serves to make 1 morph useless most of the time. If one was a damage skill and the other a tank pull, you'd see a lot more variety. Not to mention, very happy frost dps wardens too.

ketsparrowhawk

My only issue with wardens is crystallized slab. The skill just does too much. Minimum the stun needs a cooldown. Offensively I don't find them terribly threatening.

OBJnoob

I mean the stun has a cooldown. The same cooldown all other stuns have. Why does it need another cooldown when it would be stunning a different player the 2nd time anyway?

Does fossilize need a cooldown? Does fear need a cooldown? Javelin? What exactly is the logic here?

I don't even use crystallized slab personally. Not that it isn't an awesome skill but I decided to put an immobilize in my only flex spot instead. Because most kill combos include a stun, in my case dawnbreaker, and you can't stun somebody that was just stunned. Crystallized slab stuns whoever, whether the warden was looking or not, and is borderline impossible to combo with any damage.

It's free CC immunity really. Probably OP in a 1v1. Then again, if your opponent isn't using projectiles, it's literally useless.

ketsparrowhawk

OBJnoob wrote: »

I mean the stun has a cooldown. The same cooldown all other stuns have. Why does it need another cooldown when it would be stunning a different player the 2nd time anyway?

Does fossilize need a cooldown? Does fear need a cooldown? Javelin? What exactly is the logic here?

I don't even use crystallized slab personally. Not that it isn't an awesome skill but I decided to put an immobilize in my only flex spot instead. Because most kill combos include a stun, in my case dawnbreaker, and you can't stun somebody that was just stunned. Crystallized slab stuns whoever, whether the warden was looking or not, and is borderline impossible to combo with any damage.

It's free CC immunity really. Probably OP in a 1v1. Then again, if your opponent isn't using projectiles, it's literally useless.

My mistake I chose my words poorly. The ice-ball projectile needs a cooldown imo. Like 0.5 seconds at least though I'd prefer 1 second. Wardens already have an on-demand stun with arctic blast.

OBJnoob

I can agree with that. I'd be on board for a 1 second cooldown. For anyone unfortunate enough to be using a stave, the LA and the skill probably don't both need to punish. That is probably a little extreme.

ketsparrowhawk

OBJnoob wrote: »

I can agree with that. I'd be on board for a 1 second cooldown. For anyone unfortunate enough to be using a stave, the LA and the skill probably don't both need to punish. That is probably a little extreme.

Force Pulse / Crushing Shock counts as 3 hits so it'll cause 3 ice balls to bounce back at you instantly XD

OBJnoob

Ah. See I didn't even know that-- yeah I'd say that is pretty broken.

Probably unintended... I think the intent was to protect from being snipe spammed while fighting someone else. Kinda like sorc's defensive rune.

I wonder if the duration of the ability should be made longer to account for having a cooldown? Like I said I don't even use it-- always found the stun rather pointless though the defensive aspect is certainly not.

I'd say if it's got a 6 second duration then it's fine no matter the change. If it's only got a 3 second duration maybe make it 4 or 5 instead.

ketsparrowhawk

Most wardens I see lately aren't trying to be too precise with their combos. Their goal is to spam as much toxic bs into the environment as possible and see how many kills they can snag by accident. I'm just talking about BG's really.

It's a 6 second duration.

OBJnoob

LOL, it's funny cuz it's true. A very reasonable idea you have there.

ESO_Nightingale

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I mean the stun has a cooldown. The same cooldown all other stuns have. Why does it need another cooldown when it would be stunning a different player the 2nd time anyway?

Does fossilize need a cooldown? Does fear need a cooldown? Javelin? What exactly is the logic here?

I don't even use crystallized slab personally. Not that it isn't an awesome skill but I decided to put an immobilize in my only flex spot instead. Because most kill combos include a stun, in my case dawnbreaker, and you can't stun somebody that was just stunned. Crystallized slab stuns whoever, whether the warden was looking or not, and is borderline impossible to combo with any damage.

It's free CC immunity really. Probably OP in a 1v1. Then again, if your opponent isn't using projectiles, it's literally useless.

My mistake I chose my words poorly. The ice-ball projectile needs a cooldown imo. Like 0.5 seconds at least though I'd prefer 1 second. Wardens already have an on-demand stun with arctic blast.

It does actually have a cooldown. I remember when it didn't and when force pulse was casted into it, it shot 3 projectiles at the same time disguised as one.

ESO_Nightingale

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I can agree with that. I'd be on board for a 1 second cooldown. For anyone unfortunate enough to be using a stave, the LA and the skill probably don't both need to punish. That is probably a little extreme.

Force Pulse / Crushing Shock counts as 3 hits so it'll cause 3 ice balls to bounce back at you instantly XD

It used to do that and then they made it have a cooldown.

ketsparrowhawk

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I can agree with that. I'd be on board for a 1 second cooldown. For anyone unfortunate enough to be using a stave, the LA and the skill probably don't both need to punish. That is probably a little extreme.

Force Pulse / Crushing Shock counts as 3 hits so it'll cause 3 ice balls to bounce back at you instantly XD

It used to do that and then they made it have a cooldown.

My friends and I were just testing it less than a week ago. I hit my friend with force pulse. All three of his ice shields disappear and I get hit 3 times instantly. Maybe it was "fixed" the same way the suck-in-heavy-attack-animation bug was "fixed".

Edit: found the patch notes that gave it a 500ms cooldown. Does not seem to work consistently though.

ESO_Nightingale

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I can agree with that. I'd be on board for a 1 second cooldown. For anyone unfortunate enough to be using a stave, the LA and the skill probably don't both need to punish. That is probably a little extreme.

Force Pulse / Crushing Shock counts as 3 hits so it'll cause 3 ice balls to bounce back at you instantly XD

It used to do that and then they made it have a cooldown.

My friends and I were just testing it less than a week ago. I hit my friend with force pulse. All three of his ice shields disappear and I get hit 3 times instantly. Maybe it was "fixed" the same way the suck-in-heavy-attack-animation bug was "fixed".

Edit: found the patch notes that gave it a 500ms cooldown. Does not seem to work consistently though.

Yeah it could be pretty badly bugged. That doesn't surprise me.

Caribou77

There are so many bugs in the game that have significant impacts; it gets pretty disheartening when your primary hope is that they will actually improve combat balance and gameplay over time. For example, there is currently another bug where inner light and lingering flare do not prevent NBs from immediately re-cloaking (the ability descriptions state that they prevent a player from entering stealth or invisibility for 4 seconds after they have been revealed). This bug obviously makes shadow cloak much more powerful/effective than intended.

Main point: With dozens if not hundreds of bugs affecting combat and gameplay, it’s hard to believe the quality of the game will ever improve.

birdik

Minalan wrote: »

Why don’t we try buffing some other classes to match?

PS: I’m not talking about nightblade, FFS don’t make them any worse than they are.

why do all whine about nbs?) it s easiest class to kill ( p.s. i m nb )