Jab/puncturing sweep is useless in pvp because of Snare duration nerf & damage nerf

TechMaybeHic

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

To please the crowd I went to PvP for 10 mins to get another CMX for you. I could have spent more time to get higher damage numbers, but I think this 1v4 fight should do fine for you.

This is from a much bulkier build I run (the previous one was with the typical meta build rallying cry, acuity, bloodspawn 5m, 1l, 1h and sea-serpent. This build has maras balm in it and has also more heavy armor), therefore its not a 4.7k jabs tick this time.

So you were fluffing the numbers on that last one? Or why not use it if it's meta? What you show us more likely to average 6k total damage with that 20% crit than 14k, which I have a lot of doubts you close that 8k gap and who knows how many of the 4 you hit per jab. You talked up one thing and just showed something entirely different

Erm you dont know how jabs works, right? Jabs has 3 ticks now.
The setup includes acuity, meaning 100% crit chance. So you can assume 3*3600 damage per jab cast when acuity is up (thats the whole point of acuity, you nuke something when its up). Also this is just a small sample and if I spent more time on it, I could serve you higher numbers aswell.

And as said, this is a bulkier setup I use, meaning even without speccing as much damage into the build as the meta build, it still hits 10k jabs regularly (which is for a spammable still a lot in PvP), meanwhile the meta build hits for even more like in the small picture posted earler.

Now you can do with that information whatever you want. I posted evidence, that jabs still hit hard and templar still is a very strong class with the right setup. But you can also just close your eyes like sheep and ignore it and further complain about a non existing problem.

PS: Why I dont use the super meta build? Because I have enough damage with this setup to nuke enemies, so I can go bulkier than the meta build, survive more enemy players and get better 1vX's.

You've shown no evidence. You showed another build hit 4 targets which will imflate your numbers. Acuity you'll have up for 4 seconds then down 25 seconds. That's not 100% in any practical sense.

[snip]

First off, having 4 enemy targets do not inflate numbers at all, since CMX shows every hit seperately and does not add them up or whatever.
Secondly, acuity is 5 seconds on 100% plus for every stack another second, meaning that if you have 30% base crit chance, you are 1 sec at 50% crit chance, 1 sec at 70% crit chance, 1 sec at 90% crit chance and then 5 seconds at 100% crit chance, so 7-8 seconds with very high crit chance, which is more than anough for an offensive window. Puryfying light stores for 6 seconds and you usually start with that your combo, meaning you have a full puryfying light window full of crits (thats why we see 15k puyfying lights everywhere).

But you first off stating jabs has 4 ticks, then claiming acuity (which is veeeery populat on templar) is 4 seconds shows me, that you are not very familiar with the situation of templar and jabs at all.

At least I have shown something, [snip]

Where did I say jabs has 4 tics?

And again, you've shown nothing. You've said 1 thing with a very carefully picked single line then did a completely different unrelated thing then claim correlation.

If there's anything I'm not familiar with; it would be CMX as I don't really use it. Seems more a PvE thing for these reasons. You're cherry picking it setting up narratives to get it to really say much.

Edit: Ohh I see. You picked the target you did the most damage to and that's what you went off? Lol

[edited to remove quote]

FirmamentOfStars

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

To please the crowd I went to PvP for 10 mins to get another CMX for you. I could have spent more time to get higher damage numbers, but I think this 1v4 fight should do fine for you.

This is from a much bulkier build I run (the previous one was with the typical meta build rallying cry, acuity, bloodspawn 5m, 1l, 1h and sea-serpent. This build has maras balm in it and has also more heavy armor), therefore its not a 4.7k jabs tick this time.

So you were fluffing the numbers on that last one? Or why not use it if it's meta? What you show us more likely to average 6k total damage with that 20% crit than 14k, which I have a lot of doubts you close that 8k gap and who knows how many of the 4 you hit per jab. You talked up one thing and just showed something entirely different

Erm you dont know how jabs works, right? Jabs has 3 ticks now.
The setup includes acuity, meaning 100% crit chance. So you can assume 3*3600 damage per jab cast when acuity is up (thats the whole point of acuity, you nuke something when its up). Also this is just a small sample and if I spent more time on it, I could serve you higher numbers aswell.

And as said, this is a bulkier setup I use, meaning even without speccing as much damage into the build as the meta build, it still hits 10k jabs regularly (which is for a spammable still a lot in PvP), meanwhile the meta build hits for even more like in the small picture posted earler.

Now you can do with that information whatever you want. I posted evidence, that jabs still hit hard and templar still is a very strong class with the right setup. But you can also just close your eyes like sheep and ignore it and further complain about a non existing problem.

PS: Why I dont use the super meta build? Because I have enough damage with this setup to nuke enemies, so I can go bulkier than the meta build, survive more enemy players and get better 1vX's.

You've shown no evidence. You showed another build hit 4 targets which will imflate your numbers. Acuity you'll have up for 4 seconds then down 25 seconds. That's not 100% in any practical sense.

[snip]

First off, having 4 enemy targets do not inflate numbers at all, since CMX shows every hit seperately and does not add them up or whatever.
Secondly, acuity is 5 seconds on 100% plus for every stack another second, meaning that if you have 30% base crit chance, you are 1 sec at 50% crit chance, 1 sec at 70% crit chance, 1 sec at 90% crit chance and then 5 seconds at 100% crit chance, so 7-8 seconds with very high crit chance, which is more than anough for an offensive window. Puryfying light stores for 6 seconds and you usually start with that your combo, meaning you have a full puryfying light window full of crits (thats why we see 15k puyfying lights everywhere).

But you first off stating jabs has 4 ticks, then claiming acuity (which is veeeery populat on templar) is 4 seconds shows me, that you are not very familiar with the situation of templar and jabs at all.

At least I have shown something, [snip]

Where did I say jabs has 4 tics?

And again, you've shown nothing. You've said 1 thing with a very carefully picked single line then did a completely different unrelated thing then claim correlation.

If there's anything I'm not familiar with; it would be CMX as I don't really use it. Seems more a PvE thing for these reasons. You're cherry picking it setting up narratives to get it to really say much.

Edit: Ohh I see. You picked the target you did the most damage to and that's what you went off? Lol

Erm for sure there is correlation, since damage scales with stats? So its more than logical, that a build with more spelldamage will do more damage with jabs.

And for your edit, look at it again. The target is the first one, which died among the 4 enemies, thats why there is a high DPS number. The others have logically a lower dps number, because they were partcipating longer in the fight. If you look closely, you see the total damage number aswell and the target on top took quite a bit more damage.

I see, there is no point discussing with you, since you just deny every bit of information here. I posted this for awareness, because people seem misinformed. I am a templar main, I dont want to see the class nerfed, I want it balanced. And just blatantly increasing damage of jabs will achieve the opposite. Only bad players just cry for nerfs and buffs without any real consideration or balance in mind.

[edited to remove quote]

Ominer

I haven't seen a single good templar main complain about their damage this patch.

Infact, i've seen many showing of damage / healing screenshots.

I have fought plenty of them too and in my opinion (and theirs) the class has nothing to really complain about right now (other than maybe mobility).

Oakenaxe

I do feel like people are getting away from jabs easier in U35 (not sure if it is the snare nerf or just the decrease in performance, which I feel even worse having a weak gaming spec). But the worst thing atm imo as a Templar is fighting Mara's Balm wearers (with jabs).

TechMaybeHic

Yeah; maras balm is the issue with jabs, then the burning light nerf to both it's damage and frequency adds to it feeling like it lost its bite. It would be ok other than that. I don't notice the snare change as I usually build in some speed

Cast_El

When I see a blue enemy: I just kite them, because I know I would be dead soon... That's why mechanical accuity work only on bad players. Every good players kite the enemy when accuity is up.

I took off clever alchemist for Ashen grip. And I deal more damage, this doesn't feel right

Militan1404

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah; maras balm is the issue with jabs, then the burning light nerf to both it's damage and frequency adds to it feeling like it lost its bite. It would be ok other than that. I don't notice the snare change as I usually build in some speed

Doubt every player use maras balm.
I have yet to die from a templar this patch. Tried against a friend in duel just to see how much damage jabs did with 2 damage sets and balorugh and he could just stand there with hes glass canon nightblade and take it. When im farming the imperial city, i have to set my stam dk(that im bored to death off right now) there so i could switch over on him and kill them if i meet somone. Also i dont think there is one spam in the game that has more counter to it than sweeps/jabs(correct me if i am wrong)

Amerises

My issue is what to replace it with. Dizzy seems like a logical choice, however it does less damage and the slow animation makes it relatively easy avoid if you opponent knows what they’re doing.

xDeusEJRx

Yeah the jab changes were insane. I would've been fine with damage reduction but it's just a poor skill all in all. Both morphs really, though Biting jabs is a bit better.

Puncturing sweep feels like an awful move right now. Very pitiful damage, incapable of staying on an enemy(which makes the damage from this skill even worse) and because your damage is low, you also heal considerably weakly from the heal attached to it which ruins the entire point of the morph.

If you can't even deal damage with it, how is the heal gonna be even remotely good for the skill?

I think the base ability needs a serious look at to make it viable again. Or return the crit chance back to the skill but add it to the base morph so both morphs benefit and then I think the damage would be somewhat worth.
But puncturing strikes right now is a really terrible skill, not even factoring proc heal cheese going around (Mara)

TechMaybeHic

Militan1404 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah; maras balm is the issue with jabs, then the burning light nerf to both it's damage and frequency adds to it feeling like it lost its bite. It would be ok other than that. I don't notice the snare change as I usually build in some speed

Doubt every player use maras balm.
I have yet to die from a templar this patch. Tried against a friend in duel just to see how much damage jabs did with 2 damage sets and balorugh and he could just stand there with hes glass canon nightblade and take it. When im farming the imperial city, i have to set my stam dk(that im bored to death off right now) there so i could switch over on him and kill them if i meet somone. Also i dont think there is one spam in the game that has more counter to it than sweeps/jabs(correct me if i am wrong)

It's also the burning light passive. They nerfed it by over 30% and made it really only go off half as often. Maras is just an extra that you'll run into enough to not really even attempt jabs ATM

I have just stood and ate jabs with friends long before the change to prove a point for when all they do is spam jabs. Especially if major evasion is involved to show you need more. Now they managed to buff self heals while attempting to nerf group heals.

Seems we go in 2 extremes on this thread. Jabs either somehow does 14k after battle spirit and armor; or it does nothing at all. I know my tooltip is more or close to other spammmables now, so no matter what the theory is either way; it should be close to true with any spammmables , of course considering evasion and other passives being wild cards

xDeusEJRx

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah; maras balm is the issue with jabs, then the burning light nerf to both it's damage and frequency adds to it feeling like it lost its bite. It would be ok other than that. I don't notice the snare change as I usually build in some speed

Doubt every player use maras balm.
I have yet to die from a templar this patch. Tried against a friend in duel just to see how much damage jabs did with 2 damage sets and balorugh and he could just stand there with hes glass canon nightblade and take it. When im farming the imperial city, i have to set my stam dk(that im bored to death off right now) there so i could switch over on him and kill them if i meet somone. Also i dont think there is one spam in the game that has more counter to it than sweeps/jabs(correct me if i am wrong)

It's also the burning light passive. They nerfed it by over 30% and made it really only go off half as often. Maras is just an extra that you'll run into enough to not really even attempt jabs ATM

I have just stood and ate jabs with friends long before the change to prove a point for when all they do is spam jabs. Especially if major evasion is involved to show you need more. Now they managed to buff self heals while attempting to nerf group heals.

Seems we go in 2 extremes on this thread. Jabs either somehow does 14k after battle spirit and armor; or it does nothing at all. I know my tooltip is more or close to other spammmables now, so no matter what the theory is either way; it should be close to true with any spammmables , of course considering evasion and other passives being wild cards

Should probably identify which morph is being discussed. I feel like the puncturing sweep morph has been gutted into oblivion but the biting jabs one still has some potential. As they increased the AOE damage that biting jabs, it still allows for some viability because it's not just a straight up huge dip in damage, unlike puncturing sweep that didn't receive the AOE damage increase in the update.

Puncturing Sweeps (morph):
Reduced the healing of this morph to 33%, down from 40%.
Fixed an issue where this morph was only healing up to 5 times in large target count encounters, instead of the intended 6 times.
Biting Jabs: This morph now also increases the damage of the Area of Effect portion of the attack by 25%, in addition to the base 7% damage increase.

So puncturing got a heal nerf, a damage nerf, a snare nerf, and nerf to burning light which probably completely gutted the skill and I can see biting jabs still has SOME viability because it got the AoE buff added to this morph with the update.

I feel like I haven't seen a single hard hitting puncturing sweep, but only decent biting jabs happen

FirmamentOfStars

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah; maras balm is the issue with jabs, then the burning light nerf to both it's damage and frequency adds to it feeling like it lost its bite. It would be ok other than that. I don't notice the snare change as I usually build in some speed

Doubt every player use maras balm.
I have yet to die from a templar this patch. Tried against a friend in duel just to see how much damage jabs did with 2 damage sets and balorugh and he could just stand there with hes glass canon nightblade and take it. When im farming the imperial city, i have to set my stam dk(that im bored to death off right now) there so i could switch over on him and kill them if i meet somone. Also i dont think there is one spam in the game that has more counter to it than sweeps/jabs(correct me if i am wrong)

It's also the burning light passive. They nerfed it by over 30% and made it really only go off half as often. Maras is just an extra that you'll run into enough to not really even attempt jabs ATM

I have just stood and ate jabs with friends long before the change to prove a point for when all they do is spam jabs. Especially if major evasion is involved to show you need more. Now they managed to buff self heals while attempting to nerf group heals.

Seems we go in 2 extremes on this thread. Jabs either somehow does 14k after battle spirit and armor; or it does nothing at all. I know my tooltip is more or close to other spammmables now, so no matter what the theory is either way; it should be close to true with any spammmables , of course considering evasion and other passives being wild cards

Should probably identify which morph is being discussed. I feel like the puncturing sweep morph has been gutted into oblivion but the biting jabs one still has some potential. As they increased the AOE damage that biting jabs, it still allows for some viability because it's not just a straight up huge dip in damage, unlike puncturing sweep that didn't receive the AOE damage increase in the update.

Puncturing Sweeps (morph):
Reduced the healing of this morph to 33%, down from 40%.
Fixed an issue where this morph was only healing up to 5 times in large target count encounters, instead of the intended 6 times.
Biting Jabs: This morph now also increases the damage of the Area of Effect portion of the attack by 25%, in addition to the base 7% damage increase.

So puncturing got a heal nerf, a damage nerf, a snare nerf, and nerf to burning light which probably completely gutted the skill and I can see biting jabs still has SOME viability because it got the AoE buff added to this morph with the update.

I feel like I haven't seen a single hard hitting puncturing sweep, but only decent biting jabs happen

How do you define hard hitting? I shared some CMX and screenshot before in this thread where I hit 3.5k-4.5k puncturing sweeps in PvP.

xDeusEJRx

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah; maras balm is the issue with jabs, then the burning light nerf to both it's damage and frequency adds to it feeling like it lost its bite. It would be ok other than that. I don't notice the snare change as I usually build in some speed

Doubt every player use maras balm.
I have yet to die from a templar this patch. Tried against a friend in duel just to see how much damage jabs did with 2 damage sets and balorugh and he could just stand there with hes glass canon nightblade and take it. When im farming the imperial city, i have to set my stam dk(that im bored to death off right now) there so i could switch over on him and kill them if i meet somone. Also i dont think there is one spam in the game that has more counter to it than sweeps/jabs(correct me if i am wrong)

It's also the burning light passive. They nerfed it by over 30% and made it really only go off half as often. Maras is just an extra that you'll run into enough to not really even attempt jabs ATM

I have just stood and ate jabs with friends long before the change to prove a point for when all they do is spam jabs. Especially if major evasion is involved to show you need more. Now they managed to buff self heals while attempting to nerf group heals.

Seems we go in 2 extremes on this thread. Jabs either somehow does 14k after battle spirit and armor; or it does nothing at all. I know my tooltip is more or close to other spammmables now, so no matter what the theory is either way; it should be close to true with any spammmables , of course considering evasion and other passives being wild cards

Should probably identify which morph is being discussed. I feel like the puncturing sweep morph has been gutted into oblivion but the biting jabs one still has some potential. As they increased the AOE damage that biting jabs, it still allows for some viability because it's not just a straight up huge dip in damage, unlike puncturing sweep that didn't receive the AOE damage increase in the update.

Puncturing Sweeps (morph):
Reduced the healing of this morph to 33%, down from 40%.
Fixed an issue where this morph was only healing up to 5 times in large target count encounters, instead of the intended 6 times.
Biting Jabs: This morph now also increases the damage of the Area of Effect portion of the attack by 25%, in addition to the base 7% damage increase.

So puncturing got a heal nerf, a damage nerf, a snare nerf, and nerf to burning light which probably completely gutted the skill and I can see biting jabs still has SOME viability because it got the AoE buff added to this morph with the update.

I feel like I haven't seen a single hard hitting puncturing sweep, but only decent biting jabs happen

How do you define hard hitting? I shared some CMX and screenshot before in this thread where I hit 3.5k-4.5k puncturing sweeps in PvP.

If it's in line with the top class abilities. Does 3.5k puncturing line up with surprise attack, concealed, molten whip force pulse, etc?

Though I believe concealed and whip are overperforming in some aspects (like the fact whip doesn't consume stacks on cast and only on contact with target) but I think other spammables should be brought up to match it not made weaker than their counterparts.

I think biting jabs and warden birds(mag one specifically) are almost at that point but puncturing sweeps seems grossly weak. My force pulse has more damage potential, being able to hit 3.5k with the base line hit plus about a 4k increase from the second proc condition it has(where it does a second burst to targets with status effects).

Hell even screaming cliff racer now hits way harder than 3.5k you mentioned. I've hit 4.5k-7k+ birds on people with my magic warden. That far eclipses what puncturing sweep can do right now on live



Why use puncturing sweep which is harder to stay on top of people with when I can just run force pulse, get way better damage potential with it and hit multiple people with it. It just makes rangeplar seem more enticing than playing melee anymore.

It should be brought in line with every other skill rather than brought down

FirmamentOfStars

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah; maras balm is the issue with jabs, then the burning light nerf to both it's damage and frequency adds to it feeling like it lost its bite. It would be ok other than that. I don't notice the snare change as I usually build in some speed

Doubt every player use maras balm.
I have yet to die from a templar this patch. Tried against a friend in duel just to see how much damage jabs did with 2 damage sets and balorugh and he could just stand there with hes glass canon nightblade and take it. When im farming the imperial city, i have to set my stam dk(that im bored to death off right now) there so i could switch over on him and kill them if i meet somone. Also i dont think there is one spam in the game that has more counter to it than sweeps/jabs(correct me if i am wrong)

It's also the burning light passive. They nerfed it by over 30% and made it really only go off half as often. Maras is just an extra that you'll run into enough to not really even attempt jabs ATM

I have just stood and ate jabs with friends long before the change to prove a point for when all they do is spam jabs. Especially if major evasion is involved to show you need more. Now they managed to buff self heals while attempting to nerf group heals.

Seems we go in 2 extremes on this thread. Jabs either somehow does 14k after battle spirit and armor; or it does nothing at all. I know my tooltip is more or close to other spammmables now, so no matter what the theory is either way; it should be close to true with any spammmables , of course considering evasion and other passives being wild cards

Should probably identify which morph is being discussed. I feel like the puncturing sweep morph has been gutted into oblivion but the biting jabs one still has some potential. As they increased the AOE damage that biting jabs, it still allows for some viability because it's not just a straight up huge dip in damage, unlike puncturing sweep that didn't receive the AOE damage increase in the update.

Puncturing Sweeps (morph):
Reduced the healing of this morph to 33%, down from 40%.
Fixed an issue where this morph was only healing up to 5 times in large target count encounters, instead of the intended 6 times.
Biting Jabs: This morph now also increases the damage of the Area of Effect portion of the attack by 25%, in addition to the base 7% damage increase.

So puncturing got a heal nerf, a damage nerf, a snare nerf, and nerf to burning light which probably completely gutted the skill and I can see biting jabs still has SOME viability because it got the AoE buff added to this morph with the update.

I feel like I haven't seen a single hard hitting puncturing sweep, but only decent biting jabs happen

How do you define hard hitting? I shared some CMX and screenshot before in this thread where I hit 3.5k-4.5k puncturing sweeps in PvP.

If it's in line with the top class abilities. Does 3.5k puncturing line up with surprise attack, concealed, molten whip force pulse, etc?

Though I believe concealed and whip are overperforming in some aspects (like the fact whip doesn't consume stacks on cast and only on contact with target) but I think other spammables should be brought up to match it not made weaker than their counterparts.

I think biting jabs and warden birds(mag one specifically) are almost at that point but puncturing sweeps seems grossly weak. My force pulse has more damage potential, being able to hit 3.5k with the base line hit plus about a 4k increase from the second proc condition it has(where it does a second burst to targets with status effects).

Hell even screaming cliff racer now hits way harder than 3.5k you mentioned. I've hit 4.5k-7k+ birds on people with my magic warden. That far eclipses what puncturing sweep can do right now on live



Why use puncturing sweep which is harder to stay on top of people with when I can just run force pulse, get way better damage potential with it and hit multiple people with it. It just makes rangeplar seem more enticing than playing melee anymore.

It should be brought in line with every other skill rather than brought down

Oh I meant 3.5k per tick of puncturing sweeps resulting in 10.5k and more damage

xDeusEJRx

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah; maras balm is the issue with jabs, then the burning light nerf to both it's damage and frequency adds to it feeling like it lost its bite. It would be ok other than that. I don't notice the snare change as I usually build in some speed

Doubt every player use maras balm.
I have yet to die from a templar this patch. Tried against a friend in duel just to see how much damage jabs did with 2 damage sets and balorugh and he could just stand there with hes glass canon nightblade and take it. When im farming the imperial city, i have to set my stam dk(that im bored to death off right now) there so i could switch over on him and kill them if i meet somone. Also i dont think there is one spam in the game that has more counter to it than sweeps/jabs(correct me if i am wrong)

It's also the burning light passive. They nerfed it by over 30% and made it really only go off half as often. Maras is just an extra that you'll run into enough to not really even attempt jabs ATM

I have just stood and ate jabs with friends long before the change to prove a point for when all they do is spam jabs. Especially if major evasion is involved to show you need more. Now they managed to buff self heals while attempting to nerf group heals.

Seems we go in 2 extremes on this thread. Jabs either somehow does 14k after battle spirit and armor; or it does nothing at all. I know my tooltip is more or close to other spammmables now, so no matter what the theory is either way; it should be close to true with any spammmables , of course considering evasion and other passives being wild cards

Should probably identify which morph is being discussed. I feel like the puncturing sweep morph has been gutted into oblivion but the biting jabs one still has some potential. As they increased the AOE damage that biting jabs, it still allows for some viability because it's not just a straight up huge dip in damage, unlike puncturing sweep that didn't receive the AOE damage increase in the update.

Puncturing Sweeps (morph):
Reduced the healing of this morph to 33%, down from 40%.
Fixed an issue where this morph was only healing up to 5 times in large target count encounters, instead of the intended 6 times.
Biting Jabs: This morph now also increases the damage of the Area of Effect portion of the attack by 25%, in addition to the base 7% damage increase.

So puncturing got a heal nerf, a damage nerf, a snare nerf, and nerf to burning light which probably completely gutted the skill and I can see biting jabs still has SOME viability because it got the AoE buff added to this morph with the update.

I feel like I haven't seen a single hard hitting puncturing sweep, but only decent biting jabs happen

How do you define hard hitting? I shared some CMX and screenshot before in this thread where I hit 3.5k-4.5k puncturing sweeps in PvP.

If it's in line with the top class abilities. Does 3.5k puncturing line up with surprise attack, concealed, molten whip force pulse, etc?

Though I believe concealed and whip are overperforming in some aspects (like the fact whip doesn't consume stacks on cast and only on contact with target) but I think other spammables should be brought up to match it not made weaker than their counterparts.

I think biting jabs and warden birds(mag one specifically) are almost at that point but puncturing sweeps seems grossly weak. My force pulse has more damage potential, being able to hit 3.5k with the base line hit plus about a 4k increase from the second proc condition it has(where it does a second burst to targets with status effects).

Hell even screaming cliff racer now hits way harder than 3.5k you mentioned. I've hit 4.5k-7k+ birds on people with my magic warden. That far eclipses what puncturing sweep can do right now on live



Why use puncturing sweep which is harder to stay on top of people with when I can just run force pulse, get way better damage potential with it and hit multiple people with it. It just makes rangeplar seem more enticing than playing melee anymore.

It should be brought in line with every other skill rather than brought down

Oh I meant 3.5k per tick of puncturing sweeps resulting in 10.5k and more damage

I sure would love to get a hint as to what you're running because I've not seen a magplar hit more than 5k nor have i been able to hit nearly that much on magplar. Unless I slot dual wield ult and get full 36% damage done modifier, I don't believe that's very possible for jabs to do. Backlash? of course but I have not run across 1 single templar that felt like they could easily kill me unless they're in a zerg

MEBengalsFan2001

Ominer wrote: »

I haven't seen a single good templar main complain about their damage this patch.

Infact, i've seen many showing of damage / healing screenshots.

I have fought plenty of them too and in my opinion (and theirs) the class has nothing to really complain about right now (other than maybe mobility).

My main is a Templar and secondary character is a Warden for pvp. Warden with the ability to double debuff, add speed and remove cc effect, and using arctic blast to heal and stun a target is leaps and bounds better than a Templar in melee range. Add a Dawnbreaker into the mix and most enemies are dead after being stun and debuffed.

My Templar can’t compare to my Warden. If I go full swift on my jewelry like my warden my damage drops on my Templar to the point where I can’t kill anyone unless I get help. If I leave my Templar as is most players can simply dodge and run away. Templar are just weak this mod. Many who main a Templar are now on Warden, DK or swap to a healer.

HiImRex

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah; maras balm is the issue with jabs, then the burning light nerf to both it's damage and frequency adds to it feeling like it lost its bite. It would be ok other than that. I don't notice the snare change as I usually build in some speed

Doubt every player use maras balm.
I have yet to die from a templar this patch. Tried against a friend in duel just to see how much damage jabs did with 2 damage sets and balorugh and he could just stand there with hes glass canon nightblade and take it. When im farming the imperial city, i have to set my stam dk(that im bored to death off right now) there so i could switch over on him and kill them if i meet somone. Also i dont think there is one spam in the game that has more counter to it than sweeps/jabs(correct me if i am wrong)

It's also the burning light passive. They nerfed it by over 30% and made it really only go off half as often. Maras is just an extra that you'll run into enough to not really even attempt jabs ATM

I have just stood and ate jabs with friends long before the change to prove a point for when all they do is spam jabs. Especially if major evasion is involved to show you need more. Now they managed to buff self heals while attempting to nerf group heals.

Seems we go in 2 extremes on this thread. Jabs either somehow does 14k after battle spirit and armor; or it does nothing at all. I know my tooltip is more or close to other spammmables now, so no matter what the theory is either way; it should be close to true with any spammmables , of course considering evasion and other passives being wild cards

Should probably identify which morph is being discussed. I feel like the puncturing sweep morph has been gutted into oblivion but the biting jabs one still has some potential. As they increased the AOE damage that biting jabs, it still allows for some viability because it's not just a straight up huge dip in damage, unlike puncturing sweep that didn't receive the AOE damage increase in the update.

Puncturing Sweeps (morph):
Reduced the healing of this morph to 33%, down from 40%.
Fixed an issue where this morph was only healing up to 5 times in large target count encounters, instead of the intended 6 times.
Biting Jabs: This morph now also increases the damage of the Area of Effect portion of the attack by 25%, in addition to the base 7% damage increase.

So puncturing got a heal nerf, a damage nerf, a snare nerf, and nerf to burning light which probably completely gutted the skill and I can see biting jabs still has SOME viability because it got the AoE buff added to this morph with the update.

I feel like I haven't seen a single hard hitting puncturing sweep, but only decent biting jabs happen

How do you define hard hitting? I shared some CMX and screenshot before in this thread where I hit 3.5k-4.5k puncturing sweeps in PvP.

If it's in line with the top class abilities. Does 3.5k puncturing line up with surprise attack, concealed, molten whip force pulse, etc?

Though I believe concealed and whip are overperforming in some aspects (like the fact whip doesn't consume stacks on cast and only on contact with target) but I think other spammables should be brought up to match it not made weaker than their counterparts.

I think biting jabs and warden birds(mag one specifically) are almost at that point but puncturing sweeps seems grossly weak. My force pulse has more damage potential, being able to hit 3.5k with the base line hit plus about a 4k increase from the second proc condition it has(where it does a second burst to targets with status effects).

Hell even screaming cliff racer now hits way harder than 3.5k you mentioned. I've hit 4.5k-7k+ birds on people with my magic warden. That far eclipses what puncturing sweep can do right now on live



Why use puncturing sweep which is harder to stay on top of people with when I can just run force pulse, get way better damage potential with it and hit multiple people with it. It just makes rangeplar seem more enticing than playing melee anymore.

It should be brought in line with every other skill rather than brought down

Oh I meant 3.5k per tick of puncturing sweeps resulting in 10.5k and more damage

I sure would love to get a hint as to what you're running because I've not seen a magplar hit more than 5k nor have i been able to hit nearly that much on magplar. Unless I slot dual wield ult and get full 36% damage done modifier, I don't believe that's very possible for jabs to do. Backlash? of course but I have not run across 1 single templar that felt like they could easily kill me unless they're in a zerg

He’s running acuity, rallying and blood spawn.

Earlier in the thread he tried to make it sound like he’s hitting 10K jabs on the regular but someone called him out and he had to admit he cherry picked screenshot of acuity procced jabs on a random pug in cyrodil.

Weird how he’s trying to mislead you in the exact same way again, after being exposed for it earlier in the same thread. 🤷‍♂️

FirmamentOfStars

HiImRex wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah; maras balm is the issue with jabs, then the burning light nerf to both it's damage and frequency adds to it feeling like it lost its bite. It would be ok other than that. I don't notice the snare change as I usually build in some speed

Doubt every player use maras balm.
I have yet to die from a templar this patch. Tried against a friend in duel just to see how much damage jabs did with 2 damage sets and balorugh and he could just stand there with hes glass canon nightblade and take it. When im farming the imperial city, i have to set my stam dk(that im bored to death off right now) there so i could switch over on him and kill them if i meet somone. Also i dont think there is one spam in the game that has more counter to it than sweeps/jabs(correct me if i am wrong)

It's also the burning light passive. They nerfed it by over 30% and made it really only go off half as often. Maras is just an extra that you'll run into enough to not really even attempt jabs ATM

I have just stood and ate jabs with friends long before the change to prove a point for when all they do is spam jabs. Especially if major evasion is involved to show you need more. Now they managed to buff self heals while attempting to nerf group heals.

Seems we go in 2 extremes on this thread. Jabs either somehow does 14k after battle spirit and armor; or it does nothing at all. I know my tooltip is more or close to other spammmables now, so no matter what the theory is either way; it should be close to true with any spammmables , of course considering evasion and other passives being wild cards

Should probably identify which morph is being discussed. I feel like the puncturing sweep morph has been gutted into oblivion but the biting jabs one still has some potential. As they increased the AOE damage that biting jabs, it still allows for some viability because it's not just a straight up huge dip in damage, unlike puncturing sweep that didn't receive the AOE damage increase in the update.

Puncturing Sweeps (morph):
Reduced the healing of this morph to 33%, down from 40%.
Fixed an issue where this morph was only healing up to 5 times in large target count encounters, instead of the intended 6 times.
Biting Jabs: This morph now also increases the damage of the Area of Effect portion of the attack by 25%, in addition to the base 7% damage increase.

So puncturing got a heal nerf, a damage nerf, a snare nerf, and nerf to burning light which probably completely gutted the skill and I can see biting jabs still has SOME viability because it got the AoE buff added to this morph with the update.

I feel like I haven't seen a single hard hitting puncturing sweep, but only decent biting jabs happen

How do you define hard hitting? I shared some CMX and screenshot before in this thread where I hit 3.5k-4.5k puncturing sweeps in PvP.

If it's in line with the top class abilities. Does 3.5k puncturing line up with surprise attack, concealed, molten whip force pulse, etc?

Though I believe concealed and whip are overperforming in some aspects (like the fact whip doesn't consume stacks on cast and only on contact with target) but I think other spammables should be brought up to match it not made weaker than their counterparts.

I think biting jabs and warden birds(mag one specifically) are almost at that point but puncturing sweeps seems grossly weak. My force pulse has more damage potential, being able to hit 3.5k with the base line hit plus about a 4k increase from the second proc condition it has(where it does a second burst to targets with status effects).

Hell even screaming cliff racer now hits way harder than 3.5k you mentioned. I've hit 4.5k-7k+ birds on people with my magic warden. That far eclipses what puncturing sweep can do right now on live



Why use puncturing sweep which is harder to stay on top of people with when I can just run force pulse, get way better damage potential with it and hit multiple people with it. It just makes rangeplar seem more enticing than playing melee anymore.

It should be brought in line with every other skill rather than brought down

Oh I meant 3.5k per tick of puncturing sweeps resulting in 10.5k and more damage

I sure would love to get a hint as to what you're running because I've not seen a magplar hit more than 5k nor have i been able to hit nearly that much on magplar. Unless I slot dual wield ult and get full 36% damage done modifier, I don't believe that's very possible for jabs to do. Backlash? of course but I have not run across 1 single templar that felt like they could easily kill me unless they're in a zerg

He’s running acuity, rallying and blood spawn.

Earlier in the thread he tried to make it sound like he’s hitting 10K jabs on the regular but someone called him out and he had to admit he cherry picked screenshot of acuity procced jabs on a random pug in cyrodil.

Weird how he’s trying to mislead you in the exact same way again, after being exposed for it earlier in the same thread. 🤷‍♂️

You probably missed some part of it. I posted a 4.5k jabs hit (equal to 13.5k damage on a full jab) and only posted the CMX line of jabs, when i ran acuity/rallying.
Afterwards i posted a full CMX of a tankier build with 3.5k jabs tick (equal to 10.5k full jabs) in a 1v4 fight and somebody tried really hard to make it look i am cherrypicking.

Since dots are pretty bad this patch, burst is king. Acuity is pretty much the best set for templar using jabs, therefore showing CMX numbers of such a build is a fair point to show how the class and its skills work.

You all are free to post your jabs numbers and I will gladly help out to make those numbers bigger for you. Jabs damage number currently is a very nice way to see, if somebody can do builds properly or not.

Syiccal

The problem with jabs isn't its tool tip it's fact that there are so many ways to reduce its dmg to nothing because its aoe and single target firect dmg along with the fact its a channel and can be avoided, so even if the total jabs figure is x amount the chances of landing 3 hits in lag are slim

Cast_El

I switch back to Melee magplar instead of ranged magplar. This is bad 😂 , the snare duration is so awful. Hope they fix this. People only take one hit of jab

Cast_El

And I run 2 swift to try to "follow" my target.
Once again this is awful

mmtaniac

Just remove ignore armor passive from spear throw and add it as passive to aedric spear abilities. This way templar will get finally acceptable version of armor penetration and other mitigation can stay. If they won't do it they should change or remove major evasion from game or let jabs ignore this thing + undeath passive need changes overall to game health. Only good and balanced mitigation are armor or major,minor protection on them you can at least do something you have some options. Those snare from jabs are laughable and useless most of the time. Personally i would prefer snare counter on jabs when you cast them for 1-2 sec. This will make you more unstoppable and people will be forced to hard stun you, not only slow or immobilize.

The_Titan_Tim

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

To please the crowd I went to PvP for 10 mins to get another CMX for you. I could have spent more time to get higher damage numbers, but I think this 1v4 fight should do fine for you.

This is from a much bulkier build I run (the previous one was with the typical meta build rallying cry, acuity, bloodspawn 5m, 1l, 1h and sea-serpent. This build has maras balm in it and has also more heavy armor), therefore its not a 4.7k jabs tick this time.

So you were fluffing the numbers on that last one? Or why not use it if it's meta? What you show us more likely to average 6k total damage with that 20% crit than 14k, which I have a lot of doubts you close that 8k gap and who knows how many of the 4 you hit per jab. You talked up one thing and just showed something entirely different

Erm you dont know how jabs works, right? Jabs has 3 ticks now.
The setup includes acuity, meaning 100% crit chance. So you can assume 3*3600 damage per jab cast when acuity is up (thats the whole point of acuity, you nuke something when its up). Also this is just a small sample and if I spent more time on it, I could serve you higher numbers aswell.

And as said, this is a bulkier setup I use, meaning even without speccing as much damage into the build as the meta build, it still hits 10k jabs regularly (which is for a spammable still a lot in PvP), meanwhile the meta build hits for even more like in the small picture posted earler.

Now you can do with that information whatever you want. I posted evidence, that jabs still hit hard and templar still is a very strong class with the right setup. But you can also just close your eyes like sheep and ignore it and further complain about a non existing problem.

PS: Why I dont use the super meta build? Because I have enough damage with this setup to nuke enemies, so I can go bulkier than the meta build, survive more enemy players and get better 1vX's.

You can’t make your basis of the class’s balance around the performance of one set, that was the Caluurion/Nightblade problem those guys were dealing with for a little while.

Although I personally love Mechanical Accuity, it makes Flurry great too, doesn’t exactly mean that ability is in a good place, you can’t run it without the set, as is the same with Jabs, unless you’re using it for your Major Brutality and Sorcery buff.

HiImRex

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

HiImRex wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah; maras balm is the issue with jabs, then the burning light nerf to both it's damage and frequency adds to it feeling like it lost its bite. It would be ok other than that. I don't notice the snare change as I usually build in some speed

Doubt every player use maras balm.
I have yet to die from a templar this patch. Tried against a friend in duel just to see how much damage jabs did with 2 damage sets and balorugh and he could just stand there with hes glass canon nightblade and take it. When im farming the imperial city, i have to set my stam dk(that im bored to death off right now) there so i could switch over on him and kill them if i meet somone. Also i dont think there is one spam in the game that has more counter to it than sweeps/jabs(correct me if i am wrong)

It's also the burning light passive. They nerfed it by over 30% and made it really only go off half as often. Maras is just an extra that you'll run into enough to not really even attempt jabs ATM

I have just stood and ate jabs with friends long before the change to prove a point for when all they do is spam jabs. Especially if major evasion is involved to show you need more. Now they managed to buff self heals while attempting to nerf group heals.

Seems we go in 2 extremes on this thread. Jabs either somehow does 14k after battle spirit and armor; or it does nothing at all. I know my tooltip is more or close to other spammmables now, so no matter what the theory is either way; it should be close to true with any spammmables , of course considering evasion and other passives being wild cards

Should probably identify which morph is being discussed. I feel like the puncturing sweep morph has been gutted into oblivion but the biting jabs one still has some potential. As they increased the AOE damage that biting jabs, it still allows for some viability because it's not just a straight up huge dip in damage, unlike puncturing sweep that didn't receive the AOE damage increase in the update.

Puncturing Sweeps (morph):
Reduced the healing of this morph to 33%, down from 40%.
Fixed an issue where this morph was only healing up to 5 times in large target count encounters, instead of the intended 6 times.
Biting Jabs: This morph now also increases the damage of the Area of Effect portion of the attack by 25%, in addition to the base 7% damage increase.

So puncturing got a heal nerf, a damage nerf, a snare nerf, and nerf to burning light which probably completely gutted the skill and I can see biting jabs still has SOME viability because it got the AoE buff added to this morph with the update.

I feel like I haven't seen a single hard hitting puncturing sweep, but only decent biting jabs happen

How do you define hard hitting? I shared some CMX and screenshot before in this thread where I hit 3.5k-4.5k puncturing sweeps in PvP.

If it's in line with the top class abilities. Does 3.5k puncturing line up with surprise attack, concealed, molten whip force pulse, etc?

Though I believe concealed and whip are overperforming in some aspects (like the fact whip doesn't consume stacks on cast and only on contact with target) but I think other spammables should be brought up to match it not made weaker than their counterparts.

I think biting jabs and warden birds(mag one specifically) are almost at that point but puncturing sweeps seems grossly weak. My force pulse has more damage potential, being able to hit 3.5k with the base line hit plus about a 4k increase from the second proc condition it has(where it does a second burst to targets with status effects).

Hell even screaming cliff racer now hits way harder than 3.5k you mentioned. I've hit 4.5k-7k+ birds on people with my magic warden. That far eclipses what puncturing sweep can do right now on live



Why use puncturing sweep which is harder to stay on top of people with when I can just run force pulse, get way better damage potential with it and hit multiple people with it. It just makes rangeplar seem more enticing than playing melee anymore.

It should be brought in line with every other skill rather than brought down

Oh I meant 3.5k per tick of puncturing sweeps resulting in 10.5k and more damage

I sure would love to get a hint as to what you're running because I've not seen a magplar hit more than 5k nor have i been able to hit nearly that much on magplar. Unless I slot dual wield ult and get full 36% damage done modifier, I don't believe that's very possible for jabs to do. Backlash? of course but I have not run across 1 single templar that felt like they could easily kill me unless they're in a zerg

He’s running acuity, rallying and blood spawn.

Earlier in the thread he tried to make it sound like he’s hitting 10K jabs on the regular but someone called him out and he had to admit he cherry picked screenshot of acuity procced jabs on a random pug in cyrodil.

Weird how he’s trying to mislead you in the exact same way again, after being exposed for it earlier in the same thread. 🤷‍♂️

You probably missed some part of it. I posted a 4.5k jabs hit (equal to 13.5k damage on a full jab) and only posted the CMX line of jabs, when i ran acuity/rallying.
Afterwards i posted a full CMX of a tankier build with 3.5k jabs tick (equal to 10.5k full jabs) in a 1v4 fight and somebody tried really hard to make it look i am cherrypicking.

Since dots are pretty bad this patch, burst is king. Acuity is pretty much the best set for templar using jabs, therefore showing CMX numbers of such a build is a fair point to show how the class and its skills work.

You all are free to post your jabs numbers and I will gladly help out to make those numbers bigger for you. Jabs damage number currently is a very nice way to see, if somebody can do builds properly or not.

You absolutely tried to overstate the performance of your build multiple times by obscuring information in specific ways.

There's a post in the thread where you claim your build has 7k spell damage, 100% penetration, 120% crit damage, 100% crit chance, major/minor berserk, etc.etc. without explaining how you achieve it like it's some sort of super secret build when clearly you're talking about when you have every Cyro buff in the game, with sea-serpent procced, with 2h ult landed, with acuity procced.

You want to talk about an inconsistent build that relies on a 5 second uptime on acuity and 2h ult to land at the same time with reasonable CC immunity window up so you can cast a couple 10k jabs that will never land on anyone who knows how to hold block, hit RAT and walk right through you, or just hit mistform and walk away, and then tell us that templars are super strong bro you're just built different?

You are clearly not at the level you and your friends think you're at, you probably don't even fully understand why you succeed even in the fights you succeed. You roll the dice on enough pugs and the stars will align for you eventually. As a templar running that particular build you have no reset mechanic, low sustain, no aoe CC, sub-par movespeed with SSC up even with triple swift / celerity, all your pen is dependent on landing an expensive, dodgeable ultimate ability without any CC component with a 5 second uptime that I can literally end with a well-timed CC, but you still feel like you succeed because there's enough pugs that will not take any of these things into account. You get ONE good player with good build playing against your build and you're done. One healer in a zerg that is counting your acuity CD and positioning himself just outside your range with a resto ulti ready to negate your ONE kill move that has a super long down time, and you're completely useless. Meanwhile, the 90% of the fight where you don't have acuity and 2h ult up, you are running around doing sub-par damage with sub-par sustain with bad mobility.

You know what, I do agree with your fundamental point which is that melee plar is playable this patch and you can get good results. But your build isn't even close to how to run an optimal OW build on plar, it's a one-dimensional build that relies on the incompetence of the enemies you fight to be effective, or on catching people by surprise with acuity / 2h ult combo. I'm not saying it's a bad build, mind you but the way you're talking about it like it's some incredible "top 3 on the tier list" build is ignorant at best.

I can build way tankier on DK and have more consistent pressure, better sustain, more burst opportunities, and the same kill pressure while being able to create my own opportunities against players that actually know what they're doing. Same with NB, same with stam sorc, same with wardens. We're talking RELATIVE strength, and you're trying to "flex" with a one-trick pony build that severely limits where and what fights you can take in Cyrodil, with very limited win conditions that rely on lack of game knowledge to get wins.

If your build can't OW against strong groups, 3v3 against try hards, and win duels, then you better get back to the lab.

Baconlad

Jabs hit really hard, what ur seeing is that healing is so doggone good right now.

You hit jabs and get hardly no health off the bar...even though u hit for 8k total...which is REALLY good on a balanced build.

Oh and healthbars are bigger now...so that doesn't help the healthbar go down...

TechMaybeHic

Flurry is now jabs but missing the counter of major evasion. Even has a crappy disjointed animation of its own to match. Trade off is no AOE and it's targeted so no cloak stealth suppression; but enemies do have to actually dodge and not just step through

Jabbs_Giggity

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Can't really feel bad for any templars. Jabs were ridiculously OP, especially against casual pvp players that know no counters to it. Oh wait, there pretty much wasn't, unless you were specifically build against it.

Oh wow, where to start...

Evasion = 20% free damage reduction.
Bash interrupt
CP double reduction by AOE and Direct DMG = up to 12% reduction.
Speed allows to move out of cone.

For reference, DK whip does up to twice the damage of Jabs and is targetable instant cast,
NB SA/CW can tooltip up to 12k on average and is heavily overloaded with utility (also instant targetable), Sorc Frag/CW destroys Jabs in damage output, Warden birds is ranged with great utility, Necro scythe usable AOE with high healing.

If you don't main a melee Templar, you would never understand the struggle.

On top of the above mentioned counters, ZOS has destroyed this skill 100% by additional 25% nerf in u35 and then double dipped nerf with BL.

I've been through all the ups-and-downs with my Stamplar since 2015 and this is the very first time I've literally shelved my Templar main as a mule character probably for good if not fixed.

Jabbs_Giggity

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah; maras balm is the issue with jabs, then the burning light nerf to both it's damage and frequency adds to it feeling like it lost its bite. It would be ok other than that. I don't notice the snare change as I usually build in some speed

Doubt every player use maras balm.
I have yet to die from a templar this patch. Tried against a friend in duel just to see how much damage jabs did with 2 damage sets and balorugh and he could just stand there with hes glass canon nightblade and take it. When im farming the imperial city, i have to set my stam dk(that im bored to death off right now) there so i could switch over on him and kill them if i meet somone. Also i dont think there is one spam in the game that has more counter to it than sweeps/jabs(correct me if i am wrong)

It's also the burning light passive. They nerfed it by over 30% and made it really only go off half as often. Maras is just an extra that you'll run into enough to not really even attempt jabs ATM

I have just stood and ate jabs with friends long before the change to prove a point for when all they do is spam jabs. Especially if major evasion is involved to show you need more. Now they managed to buff self heals while attempting to nerf group heals.

Seems we go in 2 extremes on this thread. Jabs either somehow does 14k after battle spirit and armor; or it does nothing at all. I know my tooltip is more or close to other spammmables now, so no matter what the theory is either way; it should be close to true with any spammmables , of course considering evasion and other passives being wild cards

Should probably identify which morph is being discussed. I feel like the puncturing sweep morph has been gutted into oblivion but the biting jabs one still has some potential. As they increased the AOE damage that biting jabs, it still allows for some viability because it's not just a straight up huge dip in damage, unlike puncturing sweep that didn't receive the AOE damage increase in the update.

Puncturing Sweeps (morph):
Reduced the healing of this morph to 33%, down from 40%.
Fixed an issue where this morph was only healing up to 5 times in large target count encounters, instead of the intended 6 times.
Biting Jabs: This morph now also increases the damage of the Area of Effect portion of the attack by 25%, in addition to the base 7% damage increase.

So puncturing got a heal nerf, a damage nerf, a snare nerf, and nerf to burning light which probably completely gutted the skill and I can see biting jabs still has SOME viability because it got the AoE buff added to this morph with the update.

I feel like I haven't seen a single hard hitting puncturing sweep, but only decent biting jabs happen

How do you define hard hitting? I shared some CMX and screenshot before in this thread where I hit 3.5k-4.5k puncturing sweeps in PvP.

If it's in line with the top class abilities. Does 3.5k puncturing line up with surprise attack, concealed, molten whip force pulse, etc?

Though I believe concealed and whip are overperforming in some aspects (like the fact whip doesn't consume stacks on cast and only on contact with target) but I think other spammables should be brought up to match it not made weaker than their counterparts.

I think biting jabs and warden birds(mag one specifically) are almost at that point but puncturing sweeps seems grossly weak. My force pulse has more damage potential, being able to hit 3.5k with the base line hit plus about a 4k increase from the second proc condition it has(where it does a second burst to targets with status effects).

Hell even screaming cliff racer now hits way harder than 3.5k you mentioned. I've hit 4.5k-7k+ birds on people with my magic warden. That far eclipses what puncturing sweep can do right now on live



Why use puncturing sweep which is harder to stay on top of people with when I can just run force pulse, get way better damage potential with it and hit multiple people with it. It just makes rangeplar seem more enticing than playing melee anymore.

It should be brought in line with every other skill rather than brought down

Oh I meant 3.5k per tick of puncturing sweeps resulting in 10.5k and more damage

1. IF you can connect more than one hit per channel.
2. You've already stated you're using a crit build with a crit proc set. Other classes can crit spammables of 10+K within the same GCD of one Jabs channel. I've hit 15K crits with Whip alone and regularly hit 8k concealed weapon on NB non- crit.

mmtaniac

Templar right now just feel bad , jabs are just vanity skill the good looking ability and that all almost no damage at all compared to old version + tons of mitigation that work against it is another thing. I hate mostly major minor evasion is main problem for templars.

Burning light i like stacking to get it from every ability but damage nerf no one asked for it. This thing should hit harder especially because you can have it on one target at time. Cooldown from this should work like some sets cooldown it applies on unique target, not at all targets at once.

J-Beam is nice thing i like damage but being forced to use this when i love using jabs is just horrible. I just ignore pvp currently.

Potl is horrible after patch , this thing should just DEAL damage without being forced to stacking it to viable possible damage.

They should do changes to templar again. Zos just hate templars we only get nerfs if we get some buff we get 5 nerfs at the same time.

Iriidius

Of course templar and jabs is much weaker now, but some of the things players claim here are not correct.

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Can't really feel bad for any templars. Jabs were ridiculously OP, especially against casual pvp players that know no counters to it. Oh wait, there pretty much wasn't, unless you were specifically build against it.

Oh wow, where to start...

Evasion = 20% free damage reduction.
Bash interrupt
CP double reduction by AOE and Direct DMG = up to 12% reduction.
Speed allows to move out of cone.

For reference, DK whip does up to twice the damage of Jabs and is targetable instant cast,
NB SA/CW can tooltip up to 12k on average and is heavily overloaded with utility (also instant targetable), Sorc Frag/CW destroys Jabs in damage output, Warden birds is ranged with great utility, Necro scythe usable AOE with high healing.

If you don't main a melee Templar, you would never understand the struggle.

On top of the above mentioned counters, ZOS has destroyed this skill 100% by additional 25% nerf in u35 and then double dipped nerf with BL.

I've been through all the ups-and-downs with my Stamplar since 2015 and this is the very first time I've literally shelved my Templar main as a mule character probably for good if not fixed.

molten whip and concealed weapon have a tooltip of 2323 in eso hub, crystal weapon and barely used cliffracer have a tooltip of 2090, while jabs has 3*919=2757: 20% more than molten whip and as much dmg as dizzy swing with the same cast time. Molten whip stacks were also reduced from 100% extra dmg to 60%, so even a full stacks molten whip only hits 33%(160%/120%) harder than jabs.
Also you always claim Jabs beeing AOE is a disadvantage because it is reduced by major evasion, direct dmg and aoe mitigation cp as if every player would use them. Direct dmg cp also mitigates dizzy whip and concealed weapon/surprise attack and all other spammables, many players probably rather use duelist rebuff single target mitigation than aoe dmg mitigation. Only medium armor builds, dual wield builds and nightblades can get major evasion by skill, only medium armor skills can get aoe dmg mitigation after dodge roll and they have to dodge for it, but jabs ignores dodge roll because it is an aoe skill. The heavy armor 2h SnB Tank or the ranged light armor inferno healing stuff build cant get major evasion. I would prefer hitting threw dodge roll and cloak and single target mitigation over hitting threw major evasion and other aoe mitigation.
And Jabs/sweeps is almost uncounterable.
If you block it, you get 4x blockcost and 10% more dmg because of templar passive.
You can move out of area, but because of snare jabs is almost over then.
You cant dodge or cloak jabs because it is aoe, but probably you need to dodge roll to move out of area.
Only Streak and Mistform work against jabs.