Stop removing our progress when we lose a game

spartaxoxo

kevkj wrote: »

Many, myself included do wish players who ranked high enough could even start off in Rubedite right away but I suppose the hard reset every season is to give everyone an equal chance to get onto the leaderboards.

I don't know how much they use that information but they capped the amount of points you could lose for a loss in U35 (you used to get those big point losses) and also had it grants you wins during placements based on your prior ranking with U35.

So I think it does have and use that information, but probably not as aggressively as in other ELO systems

ETA: Also seen someone complain on here they were getting 10 points for a win only and a normal amount for a loss. I would assume the matchmaker was doing that to make them fall.

kevkj

@spartaxoxo There are two different point systems at work.

The highest tier is Rubedite.
In the tiers below that, you get 110, 210, 310 points for a win and a fixed -100 points for a loss. The points awarded for wins seem to ramp up with winstreaks and perhaps with some influence on your opponent's tier. When you reach 1000 points, you get promoted, but if you reach 0 nothing happens and you do not get demoted. Alternating wins and losses will still see you get promoted after 100 games (110 points per win and -100 per loss sees you at a nett +10 for every win/loss pair of games). In fact, you can lose more than you win as long as you string together a winstreak. This is the system @SilverBride has been discussing in this thread but it is NOT what other people have been complaining about. This system has no bearing on the leaderboard and as I've described is a weird hybrid xp/elo bar. ZOS has made this even more confusing by choosing to display it like an XP/progress bar. Some still see it as a tier system where not everyone 'deserves' to be promoted while some see it as a meter that should fill if they play enough games. For the most part, it is trivial to blast through all the lower tiers and reach Rubedite so you don't see a lot of discussion surrounding this.

The one that most other people are/were discussing and that was changed in u35 is the point/elo system in Rubedite.

Prepatch: After playing your first match after being promoted to Rubedite you are assigned a starting elo/point rating (1000 if you won, less if you lost). These points were the ones that swung wildly, people gained and lost anywhere between 0 and 1000 points after a single game! The point gain/loss was pretty obviously based on a variant of 'elo' where you gained less/lost more against a much lower rated player. Streaks did not affect this, unlike the other system in lower tiers. These are the points that determine the leaderboard ranking.

Postpatch: Point gain/loss was capped at 150 but there is still no minimum gain so people still gain 0 points for wins. You can have fewer points after winning 5 games and losing 1.

As you mentioned, you are now awarded 4 wins in your placements if you placed in Rubedite the previous season. That is the extent of the 'memory' and still has very little bearing on the outcome. Win or lose your 1 remaining placement match, you will get placed in Quicksilver. Even without the 'free' wins, a 3-2 placement record can see you placed in Quicksilver. It's really quite pointless.

Season 4: The starting elo/point assigned in Rubedite is now 250. Not too sure what bearing this will have on matchmaking/points.

I know you mean well in trying to help out someone frustrated with the game's systems but your lack of understanding of how things work currently has only added more confusion. I suspect @SilverBride 's source for a 550 point win might have confused the two systems as well, I don't believe there are any other points awarded for wins below Rubedite other than 110, 210 and 310.

EDIT: sorry I confused @spartaxoxo for another commenter in this thread

SilverBride

kevkj wrote: »

I suspect @SilverBride 's source for a 550 point win might have confused the two systems as well, I don't believe there are any other points awarded for wins below Rubedite other than 110, 210 and 310.

I suspect the same. I normally receive 110 and occasionally 210. I only received 310 yesterday for the first time and that left me needing less than 100 for advancing to Rubedite, so I don't know how many points that last game awarded. I was just happy to see Victory.

I think if there was more of an explanation about how these points are awarded it would become less frustrating for some of us.

spartaxoxo

kevkj wrote: »

There are two different point systems at work.

The highest tier is Rubedite.
In the tiers below that, you get 110, 210, 310 points for a win and a fixed -100 points for a loss.

I very much doubt that the system is recording our previous systems ratings and not using it, as it's generally easier to climb through the ranks faster to Rubedite with the 110, 210, and 310 after the first time you reach Rubedite. For example, I know the first season I didn't even get Quicksilver. And the matchmaker didn't assign me bonus points and I got the occasional +0 for a win. I got significantly better at the game the next season (watching videos, playing against good players, etc), and placed in Ebony again. But the system started assigning me bonus points a lot, and I speed ran not only through Quicksilver, but all the way to Rubedite. It basically rained bonus points on my account. So, I know that this system works lower than Rubedite as well. It was pretty obvious to me that the system placed me in Ebony the second season because that's where I had climbed to the first season and had actually almost got to Quicksilver. And I don't think it would have placed me in Ebony again and then tossed a lot of bonus points my way to speed me through to Quicksilver if it hadn't remembered my performance from the previous season and wasn't trying to push me quickly through the second go-around.

At the very least, this was exactly how I presumed it would work based off other hidden MMR systems (the +110 points is SR, not MMR) and it's exactly what it did.

kevkj

You got more points because you got better and were winning more (and with more streaks), I think that's pretty self explanatory. The points for streaks and beating better opponents is mentioned somewhere in-game, I believe when you first unlock Ranked queue. I really don't believe you can get +0 for wins (or any points other than 110, 210 and 310) below Rubedite, I want to see some proof of that. I would discount things that happened in the first day or so after every hotfix/patch, things got wonky almost every time. I would also like to add that the post-match screen does not accurately display point gain/loss in either system. I always get +0 for wins (below Rubedite or otherwise).

It is pointless trying to frame the point system below Rubedite as an elo system, because it is not. Everyone (bar those who lose more than they win) floats upwards and you cannot drop beyond a certain level. It's designed to let almost anyone get into Rubedite (eventually). I wasn't before, but now I'm in favour of ZOS just converting it into a pure XP bar and let the leaderboard be the only competitive rank. The Rubedite point system works well enough to let the good players climb high and keep the bad ones low enough that they don't get into games together too often.

Ultimately, if you want more point more faster just win more game.

spartaxoxo

kevkj wrote: »

It is pointless trying to frame the point system below Rubedite as an elo system, because it is not. Everyone (bar those who lose more than they win) floats upwards and you cannot drop beyond a certain level.

What do you mean you can't drop below a certain level? Like you can't go from Ebony to Orichalcum? I wasn't winning at a significantly different rate from the first season, I just got bonus points for winning way more often. And I know some people who didn't get those points often and wondered how I was climbing so fast, so I seriously doubt the decision to assign bonus points isn't being made by the matchmaker.

kevkj

A lot of people... barely know how to play the game and struggle to string even win let alone string 2 together so it's no surprise that they never see bonus points. You might not have had a significantly higher ratio of wins to losses, but streaks are the source of the bonus points, that part is clear (like I said, I'm fairly sure it's stated in-game). There are no mystery bonus points being awarded for previous season placings. The 4 free wins during placements were the first concession ZOS made to reward people who had placed in Rubedite the season prior. The only real effect of previously placing Rubedite now is that you can never place in Ebony again.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

What do you mean you can't drop below a certain level? Like you can't go from Ebony to Orichalcum?

Yes, exactly. If you want to think of Orichalcum to Voidsteel as an elo system, then it goes from 0 to 4000 but once you clear 1000, 2000, 3000 you cannot drop below that (once you hit 4000, you leave this system and move into the Rubedite system). You can lose 100 games in a row in Quicksilver and never drop below 0 points (or an elo of 2000 if you want to see it that way). Whereas someone who got placed in Ebony with a 50% winrate might take 100 games to even equal the 'rating' of the player who literally cannot win. That's not an elo system.

The Rubedite system does resemble an elo system, players who get into Rubedite on a fluke and then get repeatedly demolished afterwards sit at close to 0 points.

spartaxoxo

kevkj wrote: »

Yes, exactly. If you want to think of Orichalcum to Voidsteel as an elo system, then it goes from 0 to 4000 but once you clear 1000, 2000, 3000 you cannot drop below that (once you hit 4000, you leave this system and move into the Rubedite system).

Veryamedliel wrote: »

You can de-rank as you call it until you hit voidsteel. Once there and above, I've never dropped back to another category. And yes, I've actually tried to drop in every category just to see what would happen. It has a few benefits, but I'm sure that'll get patched eventually. You still remain rankless on the leaderboard though while in voidsteel. Once you're Rubidite you're on the leaderboard and can't drop off it for the remainder of the season.

This is how I saw deranking reported, and I assumed it was just a bug you couldn't derank voidsteel. But I wouldn't know as I never had an issue with deranking. I had issues with being able to gain points in both Rubedite and Ebony (although that might have been bugs) but never hit a point where I'd derank.

Jaclynn

There is skill involved, and also luck. This is the only reason someone can win 8/10 games one day, and then lose 8/10 games another... frustrating, but it is what it is, our personal skill doesn't change from day to day. I'm mainly playing against myself, trying to better my score from the previous season, but that climb to rubedite, and the leaderboard is painful.

Inaya

Dragonnord wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I do have a knowledge of the game and all the decks. Sometimes I just can't get good cards. It happens.

Should a poker player in a tournament lose all the money they won on previous hands just because they lost one hand afterward?

Poker doesn't work that way, and yes, a player can lose all the money if they put it all on the table in a hand.

And that's a single Poker hand, you said it, but here in TOT we are talking about points towards rankings and leaderboards. It's something completely different.

Anyways, with all due respect, if someone can't get to Rubedite rank, they definitely don't have enough knowledge of the game yet. That's why you see mostly the same players in the rankings and the rest struggling to reach Rubedite.
 

That's just not true. There is a lot of luck that comes into play in these games. You could have all the knowledge of the game in the world but if the cards don't fall your way, you're done.

r3play81

100% agree, we should not lose points for a loss as this game is 50/50. 50% knowledge of the game and 50% random luck on the tavern draw. In PvP or similar ranking systems its all 100% the player. You control your gear, skills, rotation and how well you play, there is no randomness to it, you lose or die its 100% on you. In ToT the randomness of the tavern can decide a game in one hand especially later on in the game when you gain larger amounts of coin. When its your turn for example there are no cards that really help you, but you play defensively, you take 2-3 cards off the tavern and BOOM the 3 new drawn cards play right into your opponents favour and the match swung hugely in their favour all over some random BS you cant control, and if you draw a crappy tavern again kiss the game goodbye. So yes until you reach Rubedite lvl you should not lose points for randomness you cant control.