Do you consider Azura morally good ??

Grandchamp1989

Question if you find the Daedric Prince of Azura to be a morally good entity based on the lore we know of her.

RaddlemanNumber7

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

She is entirely self-interested, like all Daedric Princes. Morallity doesn't figure in her decision making processes. She'll say/do whatever needs to be said/done to get a hold of your mortal soul.

Dracan_Fontom

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

I see Meridia as one of the... better aligned Daedric Princes, but they are still a Daedric Prince. They're hella shady. If I remember correctly, Meridia was even one of the Magna-Ge - one of the members old molders of the Mortal Plane who noped out of Mundus along with Magnus. Unlike other Princes, Meridia would technically be weaker and have played a part in the creation of Nirn, albeit a smaller one. However, they also became scorned or something as a Magna-Ge which is why they are seen as a Daedric Prince. Of course, this lore could have been reconned but it's what I remember from research.

Also, despite being aligned with "good traits" like Light aspects and hating undead, Meridia is meant to be like... the extreme side of these qualities. They are very scolding of those who disappoint them and still see mortals as mere pawns.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts on it.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

Here's how I view them...

Tryxus

Unsure

Good and evil are concepts that can't really be applied to a Daedra.

Even with a seemingly benevolent or good-alligned Prince like Azura, there's always a catch.

redlink1979

She is mostly morally Good

Azurah is credited with introducing moon sugar to Khajiit.

Fenris_Arainai

She is mostly morally Bad

She lies, she manipulates, she uses and sacrifices mortals to achieve her selfish goals. Not much good there.

Narvuntien

She is mostly morally Bad

She wants to be loved so will sometimes do good things for selfish reasons but mostly she demands your everything, she is something of a cult leader type. She demands your love she doesn't earn it.

Hapexamendios

She is mostly morally Bad

Only an evil entity could have a follower like this.

https://youtu.be/fTpHU3U1b3s

TheGreatBlackBear

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

She's beautiful so she gets a pass.

TybaltKaine

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

Daedra are simply agents of change; they don't care one whit about morality or good or evil. Aedra are agents of stasis, Deadra are agents of change. Each one has its own best interests at heart and see Nirn as a plaything. Ascribing anything more than that is folly.

colossalvoids

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

She's portrayed as such though we know perfectly that we're just a tool for their play, morals are kinda irrelevant.

VaranisArano

The three Good Daedra of the Dunmer/Chimer aren't good in the sense of objective morality, but rather because they were champions of the Velothi.

Even though it might seem strange, they reclaim their place in Dunmer worship because they are still their champions. There are certainly consequences for the Tribunal's hubris, like Vivec's meteor falling and causing Red Year. However, it's Azura's prophecies that ensure that the Nerevarine saves them from the greater threat of Dagoth Ur, and the Temple knows it.

BlueRaven

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

All deadric princes view us as chess pieces. None of them are here to actually help us. They will sacrifice any of us in a second if it means they get closer to whatever they currently view as “victory”, or even if we are no longer needed for their plans.

Meridia and Azura’s goals just happen to sort of go along with our views of morality, but those princes are not “here for us”.

Danikat

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

As other people have said morality doesn't feature in a daedra's decision making. They don't care and in many cases may not even understand what mortals would consider to be a good or bad action, they just do what serves their own interests.

Azura does want her mortal followers to genuinely like her and to obey her of their own free will. Which is in contrast to Meridia who will pretty much brainwash people into following her, and most of the other princes who will use fear and threats to make mortals obey. But that's because vanity and egotism is one of her spheres and it wouldn't be as meaningful to her if her followers were acting under duress. She wants them to like her, not just to obey.

I think one or more of the 'darkness and creepy things' daedric princes (Nocturnal, Vaermina, Mephala, Namira etc) will also only take followers who have chosen it of their own free will, and they're largely considered evil. But I can't remember which one because to be honest they all tend to blur together in my mind.

Other than that it's mostly that Azuras spheres of influence and interests are things which are seen as either neutral (dawn and dusk) or could be good or bad (fate) to mortals rather than that she chooses to use her powers for good or to benefit mortals.

(Two of my characters actually worship Azura, along with other deities. But even they're wary if she or her followers asks them to do anything for her. It's not guaranteed to go badly, but they wouldn't be under any illusions they're seen as more than a useful tool either.)

Ratzkifal

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

On the one hand she cares about her followers, but on the other she throws fits when things don't go her way and starts lashing out. All Chimer were cursed for the actions of 3, even the Ashlanders who didn't turn their backs on her.

You could say she is good most of the time but does evil when she gets angry. Her morality is also further called into question when you consider who her allies are - Mephala and Boethia.

BlueRaven

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

I still remember that quest in Skyrim when you go in to fight the final boss inside Azura’s star itself.

As you were in fighting the boss, a priestess of Azura, who dedicated her life to her, stayed on that mountain top in the cold because Azura wanted her to, was basically abandoned by Azura because “she had served her purpose” in guiding the Dragonborn on that quest. You can tell she was devastated, she had done her duty, served Azura perfectly for many years, and yet was abandoned.

That should be the lesson here when dealing with any daedric prince.

Toanis

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

I see Meridia as one of the... better aligned Daedric Princes, but they are still a Daedric Prince. They're hella shady. If I remember correctly, Meridia was even one of the Magna-Ge - one of the members old molders of the Mortal Plane who noped out of Mundus along with Magnus. Unlike other Princes, Meridia would technically be weaker and have played a part in the creation of Nirn, albeit a smaller one. However, they also became scorned or something as a Magna-Ge which is why they are seen as a Daedric Prince. Of course, this lore could have been reconned but it's what I remember from research.

Only Meridia is considered a Daedric Prince, and IMO she's one of the worst. Meridia is quite literally the fallen angel that was kicked out of heaven. She may be a creature of light, but the blinding, searing kind. She doesn't hate undead because she's good and they're evil, she hates undead because she considers them a mockery of the personal losses she sufferred when she partook in the creation of the mortal world.

Other Daedric Princes consider mortals as pets or playthings, some even have a kind of fondness for one group or the other, they deal with mortals when they have similar goals or just to amuse themselves, but they don't really care about mortals. In Meridia's mind, mortals owe her unconditional love and loyalty for the role she had in creating the world. Disobedience is heresy, and heretics are burned by holy light.


As for Azurah. She has a soft spot for Dunmer, as long as they aren't worshiping some high traitor impostor gods, and she generally hasn't much harmful intent in her agenda, so yeah, she's one of the better ones, almost decent, actually, but that's not enough to be considered "good".

spartaxoxo

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Here's how I view them...

Very interesting! I can't see some of these too well, especially the bottom row. Could you type this too?

ghastley

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

Good or Evil tends to be a subjective choice based on our personal interests. What’s good for me must be good for everyone else, right? Except for them, they deserve smiting.

So our priests are good, and their witches are evil, even though they act the same. Daedric Princes have greater power, but their motivations are no different. They can be altruistic, when it suits them.

Anhedonie

She is mostly morally Bad

Thing is all daedra are inherently evil.

Ratzkifal

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Here's how I view them...

spartaxoxo wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Here's how I view them...

Very interesting! I can't see some of these too well, especially the bottom row. Could you type this too?

Typed out version, brackets are my commentary on it:

Meridia Lawful Good (she doesn't like free will and supported the Ayleids against their rebelling human slaves, so lawful evil)
Azura Neutral Good (punished an entire people when 3 of them betrayed her, even those who didn't end up following those 3. lawful evil)
Hircine Chaotic Good (Neither chaotic, nor good. The hunt is lawful evil, because he doesn't like cheating but will hunt anyone so long as they are worthy prey)
Malacath Lawful Neutral (revenge is more neutral than evil, so it checks out and Trinimac would be lawful good)
Sanguine True Neutral (I could see him as neutral evil because he traps people in his parties against their will and until they die. he doesn't seem very chaotic or lawful)
Sheogorath Chaotic Neutral (Sheogorath is very much evil and ironically not even that chaotic. If you made a deal with him, he will honor that deal, unless you start rubbing it in and he changes his mind. neutral evil. being random doesn't make you chaotic)
Molag Bal Lawful Evil (probably accurate, he had to find a loophole in the coldharbor compact for his invasion by having Mannimarco start the planemeld from the inside)
Boethia Neutral Evil (difficult to place because she usually doesn't come to people, but people come to her for power, so maybe chaotic neutral actually. eitherway she continuously tests and betrays her champions, which is chaotic, but because she is also very open about that it could be interpreted as a code or set of laws she follows. Neutral evil fits, but so would lawful evil and chaotic evil
Mehrunes Dagon Chaotic Evil (didn't care about the coldhabor compact he signed and invaded tamriel anyway, chaotic evil is correct, although a dagon cultist would put him as chaotic good because the ends justify the means in their eyes)


The missing ones according to me:

Namira, neutral evil, doesn't do any underhanded things, wants her followers to stay miserable forever
Peryite, chaotic evil, sends plagues on anyone and anything just to see if they would survive it or not
Mephala, chaotic evil, lies and deceives, murders people
Hermaeus Mora, chaotic neutral or chaotic evil, his pursuit of knowledge is neutral but how he gets that knowledge doesn't matter to him, so he would commit evil if he has to, but it isn't necessarily the first option he tries. Rules do not matter to him, he will readily break them if they are in the way of him getting more knowledge.
Clavicus Vile, text book definition of lawful evil, contracts and agreements are very important to him, which makes him lawful, but he wants you to kill a dog and so he is evil.
Vaermina, chaotic evil ... probably, we didn't really get to interact with her a lot, but she seems quite evil and there is no clear code or rules she is following, so either neutral or chaotic but probably chaotic.
Nocturnal, chaotic evil, doesn't follow any rules, breaks the deal she made with her comrades, encourages evil acts

Edit, forgot Nocturnal.

kieso

Unsure

🤷‍♂️

By akatosh we shall purge their influence from nirn.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Daedric princes are not part of mortal morality such as good and evil, but instead fit the "blue and orange" morality.

spartaxoxo

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

@Ratzkifal

Thanks! 🙏 I'll have do consider this myself later!

Alchemical

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

Daedra are all firmly on the 'Daedra' side of the alignment scale. Even the ones who's interests seemingly align with ours, they exist on a scale we simply can't comprehend. Hundreds of years and thousands of plots is the equivalent of a Wednesday afternoon.

Meridia and Azura both find mortals endearing to a degree and so we're least often the butt of their plots, but it doesn't mean they don't conspire to manipulate and steer the course of our world to their ends. See TES3, in which Azura's revenge is more or less self satisfying, and while it 'helps' in the short term by getting rid of the Blight, it ultimately leads to the destruction of the Dunmer's homeland because she was mad at 3 individuals over something they did 1000s of years ago.

Mr_Stach

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

I think that The Baelborne Quest in Glenumbra illustrates a very specific point when you talk with the Daedra at the end:

Player: Why help Claudie? The Dremora are evil.
Tachnim:"Evil? Such a mortal way of thinking. I exist to serve a purpose. Right now, that purpose is to ward this land from the Baelborne.
When my master commands it, my purpose will change. That is not good or evil. It simply is."

We are always trying to put things in a Box, Azura does things to benefit her or things that she finds value in, that's pretty much the bottom line. She Assists Vivec in Morrowind because she cares about the meteor crashing into Morrowind as well as the other Daedric Prince stealing Vivecs Power would probably be annoying for her.

All Daedric Princes are Neutral, they serve themselves, they align with others to strengthen their own goals.

Now we may consider their goals Evil or Good, Like Domination or Planesmelding. But They are what they are.

Ratzkifal

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Daedric princes are not part of mortal morality such as good and evil, but instead fit the "blue and orange" morality.

That reminds me of Sotha Sil's dialogue and how most animals cannot be evil because evil requires being able to reflect on actions, knowing that you shouldn't be doing them but doing them anyway. A lion is not evil for eating an antelope, its just following its nature. So a Daedric Prince that can only be the way they are (because only player characters are free) cannot be evil in that sense, because that is in their nature.
Definitely worth thinking about.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Ratzkifal wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Daedric princes are not part of mortal morality such as good and evil, but instead fit the "blue and orange" morality.

That reminds me of Sotha Sil's dialogue and how most animals cannot be evil because evil requires being able to reflect on actions, knowing that you shouldn't be doing them but doing them anyway. A lion is not evil for eating an antelope, its just following its nature. So a Daedric Prince that can only be the way they are (because only player characters are free) cannot be evil in that sense, because that is in their nature.
Definitely worth thinking about.

Yup. I've always been quite fond of the fable The Scorpion and the Frog/Turtle (They are two similar but slightly different versions). Which to me have told that quite well. Same as animals are not evil, just being what's in their nature, daedra are just daedra. They are not mortals and therefore don't have the same morals, struggles or views.

Mortals have various opinions, such as many consider Molag Bal evil (though that varies from culture to culture). But Molag Bal himself is not evil nor good, he's simply Molag Bal. Just like a scorpion is a scorpion.

starkerealm

She is morally Gray (does some good and some bad)

The daedric princes are beyond our mortal concepts of ethics and morality. It's like asking if an avalanche is good or evil, the concepts don't really apply to it. Destructive? Sure. Dangerous? Oh yes. Fickle? Yeah, kinda. But, Good or Evil? No.

Prof_Bawbag

Ngl, I've considered Meridia pure evil since Skyrim. That damn beacon we got in Skyrim drove me up the wall irl, never mind in game. Eventually would just go grab it and go do something else away from the console whilst she spouted her drivel.