Molten Whip is out of control

FangOfTheTwoMoons

A lot of people often refer to Molten Whip as a spammable. I was under the impression that people used it quite often in combat, not just at 3 stacks. So for me to say it's a strong spammable didn't seem off, since the burst is directly tied to a spammable ability, unlike other classes where their bursts come from differnt skills. I should have been more specific when talking about the burst portion of the skill and I should have said other class bursts instead of spammables.

I think compared to other classes burst options, Molten Whip is very strong considering how easy it is to land and build up. (Mostly due to oakensoul and corrosive)

Theignson

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

One thing about Death recaps is the numbers are often wrong, at least compared to Combat Metrics. Often I've seen outrageous numbers of damage on death recap that are much lower than CM. When I've tested, Combat Metrics numbers are reliable.

I've now run 9 different builds with Brokensoul.

For mDK with Oakensoul, I had 7400 weapon damage, infinite penetration (Corrosive), 111% critical damage, but my Molten whips were hitting for 6-8k on average. No one shots, and it is hard to see how to get much higher numbers. Maybe all my opponents are blocking. I know I got a couple 10ks, but those are not the average hit.

Try bloodthirsty to easily get 10k+ whips non crit. I run mostly bloodthirsty with cost reduction glyphs and you can drop 10k easily with no crits with Oakencheese. On normal end I hit maybe 8k molten whips and from low hp it's almost always 11k-12k+ whips non crit and I don't even use corrosive armor like every other DK does which is the funny part. I use shooting star for my ultimate

I guess that would do it. I tend to run infused WD instead of bloodthirsty. With bloodthirsty, if they are full health I assume it doesn't hit as hard.Also, the build is Decimus's ulti-gen build. So with different sets you could get higher weapon damage.
However, I don't see how you can hit so high without the high penetration, what penetration do you have?

Aside from all that, in general, the molten whip hits don't hit nearly as hard as the gank mDK heavy attacks with inferno staffs. I like a more brawler style and have not tried the gank mDK builds, but they can hit in the 30k region, way higher than whip. Also once whip hits you have to recharge it with 3 ardent flame abilities.

olsborg

Molten whip is too strong, but so is corrosive armor ultimate, and if you couple them together you have something that is quite broken imo.

Miracle19

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

It's not a counter to just mindlessly spam a spammable ability

Like every fight that gets stalemated by endless burst heal spam? If we're going to nerf DKs, hit Coagulating Blood spam and the mitigation on Corrosive, not their damage. Stop nerfing damage. Players need to die. Fights need to end.

I'm all for countering healing, but for 2 DKs to completely outperform 2 teams who have millions in healing is the inverse of healing metas; it's not anymore balanced because it's damage. The other teams were not exactly lacking in damage either, so without actual healers, something on the green team was outmitigating damage quite a lot...For 1 class to have that much damage and still be able outmitigate other classes that much without healers means something is op. Damage is good and fine, but it needs to be balanced on all classes.

Well of course the DKs steamrolled them. Skara’s team had barely any damage so the DKs were pretty much parsing, not much death-prevention you can do against people free casting against you

OBJnoob

To be fair some people might’ve had more damage but if the two dks were in corrosive half the time it wouldn’t have amounted to much.

On the other hand, I think it’s funny that we’re pretending it was only 2 Dks and that their teammates didn’t do anything.

taugrim

OBJnoob wrote: »

I don’t play on the same platform as him but I’m aware of his reputation and I respect it. It doesn’t mean he’s always right. In this case my disagreement would be that he thinks two teams didn’t get beat but were in fact “butchered” and “rolled over again and again,” but in fact the game timed out.

In higher MMR matches, losing DM by a score of 375-135 is a blowout. 25 kills compared to 9 kills. Especially considering Skara's team had a baller healer on it.

The outcome was never in any doubt.

The Green team outkilled the other 2 teams combined. Green's 2 DKs nearly outdamaged their 8 opponents combined.

🤣🤣🤣

OBJnoob wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

It's not a counter to just mindlessly spam a spammable ability

Like every fight that gets stalemated by endless burst heal spam? If we're going to nerf DKs, hit Coagulating Blood spam and the mitigation on Corrosive, not their damage. Stop nerfing damage. Players need to die. Fights need to end.

While I agree with the sentiment, no other spammable has the damage output of molten whip at the moment. Partly due to corrosive and oakensoul.

If we're gonna advocate for higher damage like 10k+ molten whips, other classes need to be able to achieve this as well with their spammables.

Molten whip isn’t a spammable for one thing and I’m pretty sure assassins will hits for that much does it not? A procced crystal frag? These are the comparable skills, not spammables.

Notsureifsrs.

Assassin's Will requires 5 light attacks before it's usable.

taugrim

Theignson wrote: »

One thing about Death recaps is the numbers are often wrong, at least compared to Combat Metrics. Often I've seen outrageous numbers of damage on death recap that are much lower than CM. When I've tested, Combat Metrics numbers are reliable.

It may be that the last number shown lists the rolled damage, not the actual damage needed to get the target to 0 HP. I know that's the case from recording every match and watching lots of footage.

Regardless, as a high-armor build, there's no spammable in the game remotely close to Molten Whip under Corrosive in terms of the damage dealt. It's faceroll imbalanced.

taugrim

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

It's not a counter to just mindlessly spam a spammable ability

Like every fight that gets stalemated by endless burst heal spam? If we're going to nerf DKs, hit Coagulating Blood spam and the mitigation on Corrosive, not their damage. Stop nerfing damage. Players need to die. Fights need to end.

While I agree with the sentiment, no other spammable has the damage output of molten whip at the moment. Partly due to corrosive and oakensoul.

If we're gonna advocate for higher damage like 10k+ molten whips, other classes need to be able to achieve this as well with their spammables.

Bolded for emphasis.

And I sure as heck don't think 10k+ spammables are healthy for the game, there's zero counterplay.

XiangliSYD

I played a stamDK I shelved for months yesterday (still in high MMR because no wipe of MMR). I was so rusty and often could not press the right buttons but still went 18-1 in Chaosball and won 500-0 (we had 3 DKs and a necro).

As long as you can press Coag blood, Leap/Corrosive, and just randomly spam your damage skills you will overcome most of other classes.

XiangliSYD

XiangliSYD wrote: »

I played a stamDK I shelved for months yesterday (still in high MMR because no wipe of MMR). I was so rusty and often could not press the right buttons but still went 18-1 in Chaosball and won 500-0 (we had 3 DKs and a necro).

As long as you can press Coag blood, Leap/Corrosive, and just randomly spam your damage skills you will overcome most of other classes.

Wasn't even using Oakensoul, plague break and Daedric trickery.

Sluggy

Molten Whip has been this way for years now. The skill was reworked several years ago and literally was nerfed every patch after for three patches straight after that. The change to corrosive happened like what, a year ago? The only reason you are seeing them so much now now is because it's relatively popular. Popular is not the same as overpowered.

Also, you cannot spam molten whips anymore. Period. You have to build up to it and if your opponent is watching you closely they can see it coming a mile away. You get one shot at it. The spammability of the fully-buffed skill was removed exactly one patch after it was introduced.

divnyi

Sluggy wrote: »

You have to build up to it and if your opponent is watching you closely they can see it coming a mile away.

Can't you just cast 3 FoO in the air before combat?

Sluggy

Yes. But that's still three full GCDs. Not exactly what I would call 'spamming' whip.

XiangliSYD

Sluggy wrote: »

Yes. But that's still three full GCDs. Not exactly what I would call 'spamming' whip.

To be fair, NB need to HIT 5 times with light attacks - otherwise you cannot even use the skill. And if it is dodged, you just lost all 5 stacks.

Of course you can spam whip - just press the button - it wont hit as hard but it is something if you need the damage NOW. I have killed countless people by spamming whips when they are low.

DKs (stam or mag does not matter) are simply S tier over all other classes and are super easy to play. It is so obvious I dont know why people are even debating this.

Sluggy

The argument wasn't that DKs were too strong. The argument was that Molten Whip was too strong. It's exactly the same as it has been for years. The only major differences being that corrosive armor now affects it and that sustain is much better - hence the reason people want to play the class again. As it stand right now Flame Lash and Molten Whip are both good skills that have very good reasons to want to run each of them. Let's not nerf one so that we go back to 100% of the time people only chose the obviously good one. Instead, let's consider other options. Nerfs might be needed for sure but i think changing a useful skill into a useless one would not be the way to go.

EDIT: Correction to my own comment. In fact they DID increase the time that the stack last for Molten Whip. So in all fairness, I guess you can say it did in fact change. Whether this stayed 10 seconds, went back to 3 seconds or did something else in between I personally wouldn't care. But I can say as a person using this skill on a StamDK since 2019 if they reduced the damage any more I would just drop it entirely and either use Flame Lash or another skill.

xDeusEJRx

Theignson wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

One thing about Death recaps is the numbers are often wrong, at least compared to Combat Metrics. Often I've seen outrageous numbers of damage on death recap that are much lower than CM. When I've tested, Combat Metrics numbers are reliable.

I've now run 9 different builds with Brokensoul.

For mDK with Oakensoul, I had 7400 weapon damage, infinite penetration (Corrosive), 111% critical damage, but my Molten whips were hitting for 6-8k on average. No one shots, and it is hard to see how to get much higher numbers. Maybe all my opponents are blocking. I know I got a couple 10ks, but those are not the average hit.

Try bloodthirsty to easily get 10k+ whips non crit. I run mostly bloodthirsty with cost reduction glyphs and you can drop 10k easily with no crits with Oakencheese. On normal end I hit maybe 8k molten whips and from low hp it's almost always 11k-12k+ whips non crit and I don't even use corrosive armor like every other DK does which is the funny part. I use shooting star for my ultimate

I guess that would do it. I tend to run infused WD instead of bloodthirsty. With bloodthirsty, if they are full health I assume it doesn't hit as hard.Also, the build is Decimus's ulti-gen build. So with different sets you could get higher weapon damage.
However, I don't see how you can hit so high without the high penetration, what penetration do you have?

Aside from all that, in general, the molten whip hits don't hit nearly as hard as the gank mDK heavy attacks with inferno staffs. I like a more brawler style and have not tried the gank mDK builds, but they can hit in the 30k region, way higher than whip. Also once whip hits you have to recharge it with 3 ardent flame abilities.

I don't have high pen at all. I only ever ran about 5k-7k penetration before and after charged changes. My pen still only sits at about 7.3k. Before oakensoul i would just back bar an inferno staff and use elemental susceptibility which grants Major breach to give me to a decent pen level. But using Oaken I sacrificed my pen because oaken gives you a giant damage boost on all your stat sources that mostly makes up for not having major breach. I can still get 11k-12k non crit whips from low hp without even needing decent pen lol

xDeusEJRx

I think molten whip needs to be changed to lose stacks of seething fury once you cast the ability. Same as any other build up type of burst ability. Nightblades grim focus and sorcer bound armaments loses stacks after activation yet DK's whip doesn't lose seething fury after casting your whip. They only lose stacks AFTER hitting a target. It makes no sense.

The damage is fine but it should immediately be consumed after activation of whip, not when it lands on target. Imagine if a nightblade could chase you down spamming assassins will until it hits you. DK's can essentially do that with their fully buffed whip the way it currently works. If it loses stacks after being roll dodged I think it'll be better since DKs will then need to work to rebuild them to put up pressure again.

OBJnoob

taugrim wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I don’t play on the same platform as him but I’m aware of his reputation and I respect it. It doesn’t mean he’s always right. In this case my disagreement would be that he thinks two teams didn’t get beat but were in fact “butchered” and “rolled over again and again,” but in fact the game timed out.

In higher MMR matches, losing DM by a score of 375-135 is a blowout. 25 kills compared to 9 kills. Especially considering Skara's team had a baller healer on it.

The outcome was never in any doubt.

The Green team outkilled the other 2 teams combined. Green's 2 DKs nearly outdamaged their 8 opponents combined.

🤣🤣🤣

OBJnoob wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

It's not a counter to just mindlessly spam a spammable ability

Like every fight that gets stalemated by endless burst heal spam? If we're going to nerf DKs, hit Coagulating Blood spam and the mitigation on Corrosive, not their damage. Stop nerfing damage. Players need to die. Fights need to end.

While I agree with the sentiment, no other spammable has the damage output of molten whip at the moment. Partly due to corrosive and oakensoul.

If we're gonna advocate for higher damage like 10k+ molten whips, other classes need to be able to achieve this as well with their spammables.

Molten whip isn’t a spammable for one thing and I’m pretty sure assassins will hits for that much does it not? A procced crystal frag? These are the comparable skills, not spammables.

Notsureifsrs.

Assassin's Will requires 5 light attacks before it's usable.

Okay there’s a lot of quotes inside of quotes and I’m not very good at this stuff on my tablet so I’m just gonna make bullet points hopefully you all can understand:

1) Good point about the green team outkilling both other teams. I hadn’t noticed that, you’re right. And the damage. The game may have been worse than I was giving it credit for.
- I still think you and some others are hyping it up to be more than it is though. The sorcerer on Skaras team, for example, went basically toe to toe with the green team damage wise. Also realize the green team had 4 dds instead of 3 so their damage should be 25% higher by default. Also realize if the dks were spamming corrosive the damage of the other two teams is being nerfed hard by their high uptime extreme mitigation. Which IS probably op and deserves looking at, but is the obvious reason they chose not to have a healer on their team.
- honestly what it looks like to me is the green team successfully discovered the new meta and the other teams did not. Okay so dks need a nerf. Corrosive… whip… uh huh, and did this happen with high isle or before? Is this because of oakensoul or not? The answer is that oakensoul can’t be the problem (not saying it isn’t A problem,) because dks have run the show for a long long time. So the real question is why doesn’t skaras team have any dks on it?
- at a certain point in competition you have to stop complaining about cheese and just play the rules for all they’re worth. And I’m not saying anyone is wrong to come here and complain about what they think is out of balance… I’m just saying that if you aren’t prepared to farm dark convergence… if you aren’t prepared to play a magdk… if you aren’t prepared to go get oakensoul… if you won’t change gear or team composition from patch to patch… then prepare to lose to those that do. Things might be out of balance, sure, but insomuch as you have access to all the same gears and abilities it is most certainly NOT unfair.

2) molten whip isn’t a spammable and yes I’m serious. You mention the requirement for assassins will but neglect to mention the requirement for molten whip. Who’s trolling who here? It’s not a spammable. Sure if you’re in corrosive and you wanna press molten whip two times in a row both will do pretty good damage… but then again if I have corrosive active and I wanna throw a stone giant at you it’ll do good damage to.

xylena_lazarow

Whip isn't the problem, it's Corrosive allowing you to go nuts spamming without worrying about taking hits, and spamming Coagulating Blood too easily getting you out of trouble. Stop nerfing pressure damage. Kill or be killed.

taugrim

Molten Whip was over-buffed a while back.

I mean, look at this tooltip:

• Deals damage
• Puts targets off-balance (and DK has easy accessible to roots and / or stun)
• Gets damage buffed by a whopping 33% by simply rotating in another ability — and yes, most classes have rotations
• Buffs Weapon and Spell Damage

Lash an enemy with flame, dealing 2323 Flame Damage. If you strike an enemy that is immobile or stunned, you set them Off Balance. Whenever you activate a different Ardent Flame ability, you gain a stack of Seething Fury, increasing the damage of your next Molten Whip by 33% and your Weapon and Spell Damage by 75 for 10 seconds. This effect stacks up to 3 times.

Corrosive Armor has been very strong for a long time, but it's becoming very clear to people now that they're seeing DKs maintain high uptime on it with Oakensoul.

xylena_lazarow

taugrim wrote: »

Molten Whip was over-buffed a while back

Appropriately buffed. Something has to break through all the insane defensive power available. Whip, Surprise Attack, Crystal Weapon, and Puncturing Sweeps are all finally up to par and define what a PvP spammable needs to do in 2022. Now we just need the weapon line spammables buffed, particularly 2H Dizzy and DW Flurry.

taugrim

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Molten Whip was over-buffed a while back

Appropriately buffed. Something has to break through all the insane defensive power available. Whip, Surprise Attack, Crystal Weapon, and Puncturing Sweeps are all finally up to par and define what a PvP spammable needs to do in 2022. Now we just need the weapon line spammables buffed, particularly 2H Dizzy and DW Flurry.

Buffing everything isn't a scalable solution. It wrecks game balance.

A lot of people think Crystal Weapons was overbuffed with High Isle. Surprise Attack and Puncturing Sweeps are good tools but not problematic like Whip and CW.

SA in particular has some significant limitations: the lackluster 5m range and it's dodgeable. Whereas Whip has 7m range (amazing), CW can be applied to ranged attacks, and Puncturing Sweeps has both good range, is AOE, and is undodgeable.

Flurry sucks and DW does need a respectable spammable.

Dizzying is fine and doesn't need to be buffed.

kalunte

my main issue with whip? too easily stackable (no need to hit or whatever, just press)

the second: dodge it or not, you'll get buffwhiped anyway. just like the avoidable leap (range + 90% snare for 1s regardless of the immunity you could ask for).

you never have to rebuild stacks until it hits. unlike merciless or crystal weaps, just because it's melee, guess what: eso it's easier to stick to melee range than it is to create a gap in eso, unlike other games that generically grants buffs to melee because it's harder to reach melee.

anyway, have fun

divnyi

Agree with @taugrim
We need solution that works across the board, not 2 skills that can do so much damage that they break through the sky the healing meta.

HoT stacking & healing strength need to be addressed independently from overperforming burst options, and yes I agree that healing issue is way more important.

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Molten Whip was over-buffed a while back

Appropriately buffed. Something has to break through all the insane defensive power available. Whip, Surprise Attack, Crystal Weapon, and Puncturing Sweeps are all finally up to par and define what a PvP spammable needs to do in 2022. Now we just need the weapon line spammables buffed, particularly 2H Dizzy and DW Flurry.

I actually kind of agree with this. Spammables is what has me go back to templar throughout the life of the game as I've hated most everything else except DK which I liked setting up the pressure and whip as kind of a rhythm . I kind of shy away from jumping on bandwagon so haven't ran that, or tried stam sorc now even though I like mobility. Templar of course, is in a really good place as well but its been my main anyway.

xylena_lazarow

taugrim wrote: »

Buffing everything isn't a scalable solution. It wrecks game balance

I'm well aware but it's time to break the cycle of "buff everything then only nerf damage" because a handful of egos got shattered from dying in PvP. You really wanna nerf Whip? Okay fine, then make sure healing, mitigation, and sustain all get absolutely gutted, because the last thing PvP needs is another insufferable tank-heal-stall meta. Kill or be killed.

Holycannoli

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In addition, the defensive property of Corrosive Armor is unacceptable.

It's the offensive property that's unacceptable, as it's a defensive ultimate.

Well at least either the damage mitigation or the insane penetration has to go.

xylena_lazarow

Holycannoli wrote: »

Well at least either the damage mitigation or the insane penetration has to go.

Several players have suggested Corrosive be a purely offensive morph with no mitigation, then Magma Shell would stay as is. There's any number of things they could do to make it less obnoxious. Shorten its duration, increase its cost, etc. Just don't nerf the damage. Stop nerfing damage (stealth instakills excepted, those need to go).

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Dks were pretty dang strong before I took my Elden ring vacation from eso. Now they got oaken and the community is finally coming together to admit they are too strong. Good to see.

I just think corrosive armor should last 5 seconds(at least the armor pen part) like onslaught and should be more visually obvious. I rarely ever visually notice a dk using corrosive, its always when I see my damage number being reduced to near zero that I know they are ulted. I think often times the dk is already covered nearly 100% of the time in appearance altering buffs its almost impossible to see the ult effect on them. Now if someone uses eye of the storm I can see that effect straight away and gtfo. Corrosive needs the eye of the storm treatment.

Big hits from any class is fine and healthy as long as they are built for damage, so I wouldn't want whip to be touched at all. Idk how the whips in question were hitting 5x harder then the soul harvest(an actual ult), but most of the time with forum drama these pictures are taken out of context. I usually only get hit for maybe 8k at most on a glass canon by whip, so seems like important details are missing.

AdamLAD

I seriously do not care if classes get buffed or nerfed. Just don't add broken items into PvP and enhance the clearly overpowered problems to begin with. Theres so much that needs a nerf. However lets start with the obvious. Oakensoul. If I could do a frodo and cast this ring into the abyss of mount doom I would. Its literally that powerful. Everyone is running about getting 1 shot and not just by nb gankers, I mean overload, I mean whips, I mean necros, warden shalks are hitting like an absolute freight train. PvP is an absolute mess. Worst it has ever been. Unless ur a ganker or a person who loves to use broken stuff lol. All I see in zone chat is people being extremely frustrated not only by performance but by the worst balance the games ever seen. What a state PvP is in every single aspect. Its embarrassing in all honesty. I dunno. The devs are very talented people its just like they don't understand or even care at all about PvP.