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High Isle - What Did it Do for Bretons? (Lore Spoilers, No Story Spoilers)
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Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@BlissfulDelusions
Eh it depends on the Ayleid ruins. Remember there were other smaller and less successful Ayleid enclaves before the Direnni, they were just the most successful, plus theres also the Alessian diaspora from Cyrodiil who probably occupied a place of nobility above the Bretons but below the Direnni. Also its fair to argue Direnni architecture would be highly similar to Ayleid architecture if not identical since they both stem from the Aldmer exodites of Summerset.
Thing is, the Direni Acropolis and the Direnni Architecture around Balferia uses the Summerset Chapter architecture. Ayleid architecture type is overused1 -
Eporem✭✭✭
I also want to defend Todd Howard a bit. Judging from other interviews he has done over the years, he's a very big believer in keeping things unexplored, mysterious and obscure. Magic is almost by definition something unknowable and mysterious, and as such, should be kept away from the mundane, i.e. everyday life. So in his games, the arcane is something rare and outstanding.
If this is the definition of magic in ESO - that is comprises every spirit, it is the energy of all living things - then I do not understand why it should be kept unknowable and mysterious - kept away from the mundane - it is like saying do not explore everything that you might be capable of - everything within.
Magic (Magicka in the Ayleid Language)[1] is the general term used for the focusing of raw energy into various properties and for various purposes. This raw energy, often referred to as magicka, flows from Aetherius into Mundus by way of the sun and stars, and from it the Mundus was created.[2][3] Magicka comprises every spirit, it is the energy of all living things and can be harnessed in a variety of ways. Despite thousands of years of study, there is an enormous amount of speculation about how magic is generated, how it might be used by Aedra and Daedra, and how it might flow between living things.[3][4]3 -
BlissfulDeluge✭✭✭✭✭
I also want to defend Todd Howard a bit. Judging from other interviews he has done over the years, he's a very big believer in keeping things unexplored, mysterious and obscure. Magic is almost by definition something unknowable and mysterious, and as such, should be kept away from the mundane, i.e. everyday life. So in his games, the arcane is something rare and outstanding.
If this is the definition of magic in ESO - that is comprises every spirit, it is the energy of all living things - then I do not understand why it should be kept unknowable and mysterious - kept away from the mundane - it is like saying do not explore everything that you might be capable of - everything within.
Magic (Magicka in the Ayleid Language)[1] is the general term used for the focusing of raw energy into various properties and for various purposes. This raw energy, often referred to as magicka, flows from Aetherius into Mundus by way of the sun and stars, and from it the Mundus was created.[2][3] Magicka comprises every spirit, it is the energy of all living things and can be harnessed in a variety of ways. Despite thousands of years of study, there is an enormous amount of speculation about how magic is generated, how it might be used by Aedra and Daedra, and how it might flow between living things.[3][4]
This exactly. Heck, there is enough lore to piece together that I was able to write a spellcasting manual for roleplaying purposes. The linking in the source list is a bit shoddy, still, but imo at this point there is no excuse NOT to write an extensive spellbook.
Anyways for the discussion on Ayleid/Alinor assets, the excuse they used to differentiate the Altmer/Ayleid Ancient Elf assets back in the day was that "There are obvious similarities between Altmer architecture and that of their cousins the Ayleids, but there are clear differences as well. High Elven architecture is cleaner and more direct, with less baroque ornamentation than that of the Wild Elves." IMO this was just to excuse the asset reuse back in the day, and since the Direnni use Alinor ruins on Balfiera, the ruins in High Rock and on Auridon should be updated.
That's unlikely to happen, though. Base game redesign is not something I expect will come anytime soon, if it ever does. It's just not a priority.Former completionist with all achievements unlocked up until Update 29 (Flames of Ambition). Avid RPer, writer, and former Breton lover. Then Legacy of the Bretons was released and I realized just how boring and uninspired the Bretons are according to the writers.0 -
Mascen✭✭✭✭KingArthasMenethil wrote: »@BlissfulDelusions
Eh it depends on the Ayleid ruins. Remember there were other smaller and less successful Ayleid enclaves before the Direnni, they were just the most successful, plus theres also the Alessian diaspora from Cyrodiil who probably occupied a place of nobility above the Bretons but below the Direnni. Also its fair to argue Direnni architecture would be highly similar to Ayleid architecture if not identical since they both stem from the Aldmer exodites of Summerset.
They are different culture groups. There's similar and then there's looking like a province of the Ayleid Empire that base game High Rock is.
We've seen what ESO uses for Drienni architecture and it isn't Ayleid as it uses Summerset assets (the Direnni place on Summerset and during the intro) because there is no Direnni architecture at all.
Eh theyre not apples to oranges in terms of differences per se, but more like Fuji and McIntosh apples; that is to say there is a high amount of overlap and cultural similarities minus the daedra/aedra worshipping aspects. And if anything, the Summerset/Ayleid differences in architecture is more a result of mechanical worldbuilding limitations on ZOS's part since they cant afford to give every ruin or delve unique architectural assets like in the lore.
Plus the Alinor ruins are more likely older than the Direnni exodus and as such would be part of a different architecture era, most likely Late Aldmer merithic era or early 1st era. I would surmise then that Direnni architecture on Balfiera would be a blend somewhere between Alinor and Ayleid with increasing Breton and Altmer influences as the ages pass1 -
KingArthasMenethil wrote: »@BlissfulDelusions
Eh it depends on the Ayleid ruins. Remember there were other smaller and less successful Ayleid enclaves before the Direnni, they were just the most successful, plus theres also the Alessian diaspora from Cyrodiil who probably occupied a place of nobility above the Bretons but below the Direnni. Also its fair to argue Direnni architecture would be highly similar to Ayleid architecture if not identical since they both stem from the Aldmer exodites of Summerset.
They are different culture groups. There's similar and then there's looking like a province of the Ayleid Empire that base game High Rock is.
We've seen what ESO uses for Drienni architecture and it isn't Ayleid as it uses Summerset assets (the Direnni place on Summerset and during the intro) because there is no Direnni architecture at all.
Eh theyre not apples to oranges in terms of differences per se, but more like Fuji and McIntosh apples; that is to say there is a high amount of overlap and cultural similarities minus the daedra/aedra worshipping aspects. And if anything, the Summerset/Ayleid differences in architecture is more a result of mechanical worldbuilding limitations on ZOS's part since they cant afford to give every ruin or delve unique architectural assets like in the lore.
Plus the Alinor ruins are more likely older than the Direnni exodus and as such would be part of a different architecture era, most likely Late Aldmer merithic era or early 1st era. I would surmise then that Direnni architecture on Balfiera would be a blend somewhere between Alinor and Ayleid with increasing Breton and Altmer influences as the ages pass
The limitations of ZoS's part comes from literally forgetting the Drienni existed when they made the ancient High Rock zones (which are ancient as they're the ones that were done first) which is why the Adamantine Tower was Ayleid in the original story because they outright forgot the Direnni were a thing and made everything Ayleid and still forget about the Direnni since they just love rehashing the Evil Elves whose Empire "clearly" held most of Mainland Tamriel. They used the Summerset tileset because they know base game messed up the Drienni badly to the point it looks like the Ayleids conquered them instead of joining them so they used of the tileset is to make a difference between the Drienni and Ayleids instead of continuing the Direnni erasure.
Direnni architecture shouldn't have any blend with the Ayleids any blend should be avoiding the Ayleids to make the Direnni their own thing then acting like they were conquered by the Ayleids like base game does and using the Summerset architecutre is better then the Ayleid one.
They shouldn't be similar to the Ayleids because they are a different group of High Elves otherwise you get the point that you should add Ayleid ruins to Morrowind because of the Chimer who were also High Elves who left Summerset and will have more in common with the Ayleids then the Direnni.
Basegame wasn't good because the issues of not having a loremaster until late which shows with the Drienni and Barsaebic Ayleids and the Barsaebics who they just made them Atataric Ayleids with the Daedra Worship, gut Gardens, doing the Knahaten flu and being involved in the Alessian Rebellion (all in Shadowfen) when the Barsaebic Ayleids weren't involved in any of those as they were pro-Aedra Ayleids who were kicked out of Cyrodiil by the Pro-Daedra ones before they went all Warhammer Chaos Cult.
EU 2000+ CP
Characters
Gaius Sulla 50 Cyrodiil DragonKnight.
Livia Sulla 50 Cyrodiil Nightblade.
Divayth-Fyr 50 Dunmer Sorcerer.
Ragnar Shatter-Shield 50 Nord Dragonknight.
Selvia Sulla 50 Cyrodiil Templar.
Attrebus Mede 50 Cyrodiil Warden.
Zirath Urivith 50 Dunmer Dragonknight.
Dame Edwinna Gelas 50 Breton Dragonknight.
Agrippina Tharn 50 Cyrodiil Necromancer.
Bedal Dren 50 Dunmer Dragonknight.2 -
Mascen✭✭✭✭KingArthasMenethil wrote: »KingArthasMenethil wrote: »@BlissfulDelusions
Eh it depends on the Ayleid ruins. Remember there were other smaller and less successful Ayleid enclaves before the Direnni, they were just the most successful, plus theres also the Alessian diaspora from Cyrodiil who probably occupied a place of nobility above the Bretons but below the Direnni. Also its fair to argue Direnni architecture would be highly similar to Ayleid architecture if not identical since they both stem from the Aldmer exodites of Summerset.
They are different culture groups. There's similar and then there's looking like a province of the Ayleid Empire that base game High Rock is.
We've seen what ESO uses for Drienni architecture and it isn't Ayleid as it uses Summerset assets (the Direnni place on Summerset and during the intro) because there is no Direnni architecture at all.
Eh theyre not apples to oranges in terms of differences per se, but more like Fuji and McIntosh apples; that is to say there is a high amount of overlap and cultural similarities minus the daedra/aedra worshipping aspects. And if anything, the Summerset/Ayleid differences in architecture is more a result of mechanical worldbuilding limitations on ZOS's part since they cant afford to give every ruin or delve unique architectural assets like in the lore.
Plus the Alinor ruins are more likely older than the Direnni exodus and as such would be part of a different architecture era, most likely Late Aldmer merithic era or early 1st era. I would surmise then that Direnni architecture on Balfiera would be a blend somewhere between Alinor and Ayleid with increasing Breton and Altmer influences as the ages pass
The limitations of ZoS's part comes from literally forgetting the Drienni existed when they made the ancient High Rock zones (which are ancient as they're the ones that were done first) which is why the Adamantine Tower was Ayleid in the original story because they outright forgot the Direnni were a thing and made everything Ayleid and still forget about the Direnni since they just love rehashing the Evil Elves whose Empire "clearly" held most of Mainland Tamriel. They used the Summerset tileset because they know base game messed up the Drienni badly to the point it looks like the Ayleids conquered them instead of joining them so they used of the tileset is to make a difference between the Drienni and Ayleids instead of continuing the Direnni erasure.
Direnni architecture shouldn't have any blend with the Ayleids any blend should be avoiding the Ayleids to make the Direnni their own thing then acting like they were conquered by the Ayleids like base game does and using the Summerset architecutre is better then the Ayleid one.
They shouldn't be similar to the Ayleids because they are a different group of High Elves otherwise you get the point that you should add Ayleid ruins to Morrowind because of the Chimer who were also High Elves who left Summerset and will have more in common with the Ayleids then the Direnni.
Basegame wasn't good because the issues of not having a loremaster until late which shows with the Drienni and Barsaebic Ayleids and the Barsaebics who they just made them Atataric Ayleids with the Daedra Worship, gut Gardens, doing the Knahaten flu and being involved in the Alessian Rebellion (all in Shadowfen) when the Barsaebic Ayleids weren't involved in any of those as they were pro-Aedra Ayleids who were kicked out of Cyrodiil by the Pro-Daedra ones before they went all Warhammer Chaos Cult.
We can agree that ZOS botched things up and maybe redoing the base game zones is something they should tackle in the future.
As for the Ayleids, they werent as much an empire as a collection of city states with shared origins that fought each other. As such much like the Direnni and Atataric Ayleids there will be shared and overlapping elements in their architecture and stylisitc motifs like how the doorway arches are shaped across different elven cultures or the spade shaped neck guard that is prevalent across elven heavy armors, even the dunmeri ones.
As for the Chimer, its pretty well noted morrowind doesnt have the pale rock favored by the ayleids and Altmer along with the guidelines set forth by Veloth and Dwemeri influences. But even pre-Almsivi there is pan-elven elements in their architecture as well from the way dunmer gardens are arranged to the design of lanterns.1 -
Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭I love that ZOS capitalised on the obscure "Druids of Galen" reference from Arena. I love the La Tene faces peeking out from the rocks supporting dolmens and cromlechs dotting the landscape. I love Glemyos Wildhorn and the mystical Faun Falls. These things feel like High Rock worldspace to me, with unique and evocative character, strongly distinct from otherwise similar cultures. And I'm disappointed that actual High Rock will never look like this.
What I didn't like was that the druids seem to be the entirety of the "legacy", especially considering they seem to be more a "branch", and while an interesting faction, don't seem that important or integral to who the Bretons are. I'm disappointed that "the Legacy of the Bretons" doesn't really seem to involve anything about the Nedes, nor the mysterious Direnni, who not only seem from the lore to actually constitute and significantly define Breton legacy, but offer immediate and compelling hooks, character, history, and contrast to- and cohesion with- foundation stories and historical trajectories of the other races of man and mer. To be fair there is still a DLC-sized content which could potentially remedy this, partly, though being missing from the major, and more significant chapter drop leaves me with little hope that these aspects will have much importance, if they're touched on at all.
Regarding the factionalism, it was OK. I liked that this was the lens through which ZOS was telling their Breton tale. Monard and Dufont were interesting houses, and their spheres of power and how they maneuvered politically felt grounded and characteristic of Bretons to me. I also REALLY liked that ZOS capitalised on their older stuff, including dynamics involving *Ranser. I think this displays confidence in their own contribution to canon and develops some depth to ZOS' Tamriel. I will say that, though the dynamics between the two houses needed to be abstract and cunning power plays, and the characters did need to be idiosyncratically pompous and somewhat arrogant, I also wish there were reasons to feel empathy for the existence of either- some redeeming charm.
My other major complaint might be a little unfair, but I didn't feel like this was a story about High Rock, and that's a shame because I don't think you can divorce the legacy of the Bretons from the story that their own land tells.Edited by Supreme_Atromancer on 20 July 2022 19:013 -
Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭I want to add some thoughts about the posts in the thread, now that I've read it. I note that the OP is posted as an invitation for discussion, so I hope any contrary opinions I describe don't seem like personal slights.
I tend to agree with Todd Howard's more grey, more gritty vision of Tamriel, and I think that it sets the tone for what Elder Scrolls is meant to be. I also think that magic is more "magical" when it is rare and spooky, rather than mundane, everyday alternate electricity and "Flintstones technology". In other words, while this interpretation can be cool, I think it looses what makes it special when it is everyday.
I think that the evidence listed against "Low-Magic Tamriel" are more examples of problems of scale, and the exposure bias of being a dungeon-delving hero, who, afterall, spends her whole life away from everyday Tamriellans, facing the rare, obscure and forgotten.
I feel there is still a niche for Bretons as a "magical" race in such a setting when you consider that they're inspired, at least in part to 19th century ideas of chivalric Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, but steeped in the mists of otherworldly celtic charm, the haunting Mabinogion, ancient Irish "unreason", and spooky things peering between the twisted boughs of an Arthur Rackham oak forest. None of these things mean that the average Breton is lighting the streetlamps with fireballs and portalling their effluent via mini personalised maelstroms encased in porcelain "gates" to the realm of Ashpit to symbolically thank Malacath for yet another Orsinium. Rather that they, as a people seem to possess a certain fey-touched, otherworldly mystery. I think this adds more narrative possibility and personality to the race than the over-coarse "every-Breton-casting-illusions-on-the-street-corners-of-Wayrest".
I do strongly agree that there could be *some* more room for Breton magic. I agree with the observations that the Dark Elves have magical academies and even the Nords have the CoW, it would have been really cool to see some of that for the Bretons. I was really excited to talk to Norianwe last year and was intrigued to hear about the fascinating Sindarill- combining intrigue and maneuvering with a magical order is the perfect breton spin. Its a shame that we see nothing more of this, can learn no more about it.
Its interesting to see how the same body of lore leads people to emphasise very different visions of the Bretons. I believe the lore references do support the elements you highlight, but I don't agree that the lore about Bretons as a whole is arguing that enlightenment, theatre, charters, pizza and pantaloons are all-defining for the race.
In a world of Dark Elf sorceresses, Shaolin Catmen, Aztec Lizards, it feels oddball, to me. I think there is room for it -in context- If there were too many lorebooks about charters and tea cozies, I'd probably disengage with what is actually my favourite race.
What's always captured my imagination about the Bretons is the sort of dark-ages or early medieval influences, and the internal contrast of a whole suite of traits that all feel like aspects of what might tell the story of High Rock and the Bretons. Evermore, the Western Reach and everything beyond the Wrothgarian Mountains are brooding Scottish castles ruled by brooding Scottish lords, in an ancient, rocky highland landscape dotted with old stone monoliths and spiral-etched standing stones. These people, while still quintessentially Breton (if are a teeeeny bit less refined), are shaped by their cold, marginal lands remote from the High Iliac city culture, as well as their Reach heritage (like real world Romanised Briton, or Winterfell in ASOIAF, they're just the ones on the "good side" of the wall). They have some similarity with the Nords to the east, though are more bound by the innate Breton caste nature. Where a Nord farmer is just a warrior during harvest season, Breton villagers are, for the most part, fearful peasants hiding behind their plate-armoured knightly caste at the first sign of trouble.
This contrasts with the Iliac city-states which represent the "civilised", mercantile, rich and eminently networked world we typically think of as Breton. But even Wayrest and Daggerfall offer the possibility of intriguing contrasts that were set up in TES2, but never capitalised on in ESO. They were set up as politically and historically distinct, with Daggerfall being pro-empire, being founded much earlier before the rise of Breton identity was even a thing, and Wayrest, rather anti-imperial, more mercantile, rich, and being founded by merchants during a time when the concept of "Breton-ness" was established and thriving. These differences alone quickly suggest roots for internecine struggle, be it the clashes between the supremacy of heritage or wealth, imperialism and independence, or just us-and-them ratoinale wrapped in more proximal, surface drivers of whatever fractuituisness and conflict might make a good story.
If I seem to be crapping on anyone's ideas, please let me know. I'm also very passionate about the Bretons and High Rock, I'm enjoying the discussion and love how passionate people get about the lore and the story, and just because I think my ideas are all so amazing and just so plainly self-evident, I acknowledge it doesn't mean I'm innately right, or that my perception is never flawed.Edited by Supreme_Atromancer on 21 July 2022 06:143 -
BlissfulDeluge✭✭✭✭✭Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »I want to add some thoughts about the posts in the thread, now that I've read it. I note that the OP is posted as an invitation for discussion, so I hope any contrary opinions I describe don't seem like personal slights.
I tend to agree with Todd Howard's more grey, more gritty vision of Tamriel, and I think that it sets the tone for what Elder Scrolls is meant to be. I also think that magic is more "magical" when it is rare and spooky, rather than mundane, everyday alternate electricity and "Flintstones technology". In other words, while this interpretation can be cool, I think it looses what makes it special when it is everyday.
I think that the evidence listed against "Low-Magic Tamriel" are more examples of problems of scale, and the exposure bias of being a dungeon-delving hero, who, afterall, spends her whole life away from everyday Tamriellans, facing the rare, obscure and forgotten.
I feel there is still a niche for Bretons as a "magical" race in such a setting when you consider that they're inspired, at least in part to 19th century ideas of chivalric Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, but steeped in the mists of otherworldly celtic charm, the haunting Mabinogion, ancient Irish "unreason", and spooky things peering between the twisted boughs of an Arthur Rackham oak forest. None of these things mean that the average Breton is lighting the streetlamps with fireballs and portalling their effluent via mini personalised maelstroms encased in porcelain "gates" to the realm of Ashpit to symbolically thank Malacath for yet another Orsinium. Rather that they, as a people seem to possess a certain fey-touched, otherworldly mystery. I think this adds more narrative possibility and personality to the race than the over-coarse "every-Breton-casting-illusions-on-the-street-corners-of-Wayrest".
I do strongly agree that there could be *some* more room for Breton magic. I agree with the observations that the Dark Elves have magical academies and even the Nords have the CoW, it would have been really cool to see some of that for the Bretons. I was really excited to talk to Norianwe last year and was intrigued to hear about the fascinating Sindarill- combining intrigue and maneuvering with a magical order is the perfect breton spin. Its a shame that we see nothing more of this, can learn no more about it.
Its interesting to see how the same body of lore leads people to emphasise very different visions of the Bretons. I believe the lore references do support the elements you highlight, but I don't agree that the lore about Bretons as a whole is arguing that enlightenment, theatre, charters, pizza and pantaloons are all-defining for the race.
In a world of Dark Elf sorceresses, Shaolin Catmen, Aztec Lizards, it feels oddball, to me. I think there is room for it -in context- If there were too many lorebooks about charters and tea cozies, I'd probably disengage with what is actually my favourite race.
What's always captured my imagination about the Bretons is the sort of dark-ages or early medieval influences, and the internal contrast of a whole suite of traits that all feel like aspects of what might tell the story of High Rock and the Bretons. Evermore, the Western Reach and everything beyond the Wrothgarian Mountains are brooding Scottish castles ruled by brooding Scottish lords, in an ancient, rocky highland landscape dotted with old stone monoliths and spiral-etched standing stones. These people, while still quintessentially Breton (if are a teeeeny bit less refined), are shaped by their cold, marginal lands remote from the High Iliac city culture, as well as their Reach heritage (like real world Romanised Briton, or Winterfell in ASOIAF, they're just the ones on the "good side" of the wall). They have some similarity with the Nords to the east, though are more bound by the innate Breton caste nature. Where a Nord farmer is just a warrior during harvest season, Breton villagers are, for the most part, fearful peasants hiding behind their plate-armoured knightly caste at the first sign of trouble.
This contrasts with the Iliac city-states which represent the "civilised", mercantile, rich and eminently networked world we typically think of as Breton. But even Wayrest and Daggerfall offer the possibility of intriguing contrasts that were set up in TES2, but never capitalised on in ESO. They were set up as politically and historically distinct, with Daggerfall being pro-empire, being founded much earlier before the rise of Breton identity was even a thing, and Wayrest, rather anti-imperial, more mercantile, rich, and being founded by merchants during a time when the concept of "Breton-ness" was established and thriving. These differences alone quickly suggest roots for internecine struggle, be it the clashes between the supremacy of heritage or wealth, imperialism and independence, or just us-and-them ratoinale wrapped in more proximal, surface drivers of whatever fractuituisness and conflict might make a good story.
If I seem to be crapping on anyone's ideas, please let me know. I'm also very passionate about the Bretons and High Rock, I'm enjoying the discussion and love how passionate people get about the lore and the story, and just because I think my ideas are all so amazing and just so plainly self-evident, I acknowledge it doesn't mean I'm innately right, or that my perception is never flawed.
I welcome the discussion, Atro
We do disagree on some points, but that's perfectly fine so long as it's done civilly.
As far as Todd's Howard statement goes, I would not go so far as to suggest fullblown magitech with horseless carriages or the like, but it just feels so odd to me to have Altmer have full-blown clocks, only to have Bretons, who have repeatedly been described as inventive, only have bucket sundials. I'd love to see some magical advancements from out of High Rock to reflect their reputation, but there's precious little to be had. Likewise, we have zero powerful magical figures despite how the devs have gone on record to say that magic and Bretons are inextricably linked. It's just so odd to me to see the source material neglected in such a way.
I can agree with the sentiment of scaling, but given the plethora of magical stores and its real economical impact on Tamriel, which is openly discussed by characters in the game, I still think Todd Howard's statement is objectively wrong. If magic were to disappear from Tamriel, perhaps you would not instantly know in the moment, but the implied economical ramifications are so severe that it is a stretch of the imagination to believe that people would not be talking about the disappearance of magic and its impact on Tamriel's economy in the following days.
I do think there's more to Bretons than just the charters and enlightenment vibes I spoke of, however, I also think Bretons are severely lacking in something unique to justify their reputation as intelligent and inventive. Enlightenment vibes is a niche that hasn't been filled by any other race in Tamriel, hence why I so strongly support them getting something that makes them at least enlightenment-adjacent, due to their reputation.
On the contrary, High Rock also has feudal vibes and stated inequity, which I feel could have been done so much better. I honestly think it is regrettable that they leaned so much into the feudal and medieval vibes, because Bretons are so much more than that. I would argue that due to the oversaturation of medieval feudal fantasy in media, boiling Bretons down to medieval feudal fantasy is doing them a disservice, just as you would argue that making them overly enlightened would be the same.
I don't think Bretons should be devoid of grit. I don't think they should be missing the scheming, politicking, backstabbing and things that make Bretons... Bretons. But I do think that they need something unique to set them apart from generic feudal medieval fantasy, because upward mobility and classism without depth aren't going to cut it. Seeing Bretons be boiled down to their representation in High Isle, in my opinion, feels lifeless, lacking in depth, and uninspired. It turns me off from the race because it squanders their potential.
I would prefer to have a middle ground between enlightenment and feudalism, so at the bottom you have people with no rights and privileges, and then the more you pay in taxes, the higher your class and the more privileges you get. This in my opinion would add a sort of progression from lower to middle and upper class, meaning all the classes would be distinct from each other instead of just being meaningless jargon that is irrelevant and indistinct from other lands in Tamriel.
Your ideas are valid, just as valid as mine are. I would love to see more cultural distinction between different fiefdoms in Breton lands, but sadly we just don't see it represented well. They feel homogenized.Edited by BlissfulDeluge on 21 July 2022 12:53Former completionist with all achievements unlocked up until Update 29 (Flames of Ambition). Avid RPer, writer, and former Breton lover. Then Legacy of the Bretons was released and I realized just how boring and uninspired the Bretons are according to the writers.2 -
Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭.BlissfulDelusions wrote: »Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »I want to add some thoughts about the posts in the thread, now that I've read it. I note that the OP is posted as an invitation for discussion, so I hope any contrary opinions I describe don't seem like personal slights.
I tend to agree with Todd Howard's more grey, more gritty vision of Tamriel, and I think that it sets the tone for what Elder Scrolls is meant to be. I also think that magic is more "magical" when it is rare and spooky, rather than mundane, everyday alternate electricity and "Flintstones technology". In other words, while this interpretation can be cool, I think it looses what makes it special when it is everyday.
I think that the evidence listed against "Low-Magic Tamriel" are more examples of problems of scale, and the exposure bias of being a dungeon-delving hero, who, afterall, spends her whole life away from everyday Tamriellans, facing the rare, obscure and forgotten.
I feel there is still a niche for Bretons as a "magical" race in such a setting when you consider that they're inspired, at least in part to 19th century ideas of chivalric Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, but steeped in the mists of otherworldly celtic charm, the haunting Mabinogion, ancient Irish "unreason", and spooky things peering between the twisted boughs of an Arthur Rackham oak forest. None of these things mean that the average Breton is lighting the streetlamps with fireballs and portalling their effluent via mini personalised maelstroms encased in porcelain "gates" to the realm of Ashpit to symbolically thank Malacath for yet another Orsinium. Rather that they, as a people seem to possess a certain fey-touched, otherworldly mystery. I think this adds more narrative possibility and personality to the race than the over-coarse "every-Breton-casting-illusions-on-the-street-corners-of-Wayrest".
I do strongly agree that there could be *some* more room for Breton magic. I agree with the observations that the Dark Elves have magical academies and even the Nords have the CoW, it would have been really cool to see some of that for the Bretons. I was really excited to talk to Norianwe last year and was intrigued to hear about the fascinating Sindarill- combining intrigue and maneuvering with a magical order is the perfect breton spin. Its a shame that we see nothing more of this, can learn no more about it.
Its interesting to see how the same body of lore leads people to emphasise very different visions of the Bretons. I believe the lore references do support the elements you highlight, but I don't agree that the lore about Bretons as a whole is arguing that enlightenment, theatre, charters, pizza and pantaloons are all-defining for the race.
In a world of Dark Elf sorceresses, Shaolin Catmen, Aztec Lizards, it feels oddball, to me. I think there is room for it -in context- If there were too many lorebooks about charters and tea cozies, I'd probably disengage with what is actually my favourite race.
What's always captured my imagination about the Bretons is the sort of dark-ages or early medieval influences, and the internal contrast of a whole suite of traits that all feel like aspects of what might tell the story of High Rock and the Bretons. Evermore, the Western Reach and everything beyond the Wrothgarian Mountains are brooding Scottish castles ruled by brooding Scottish lords, in an ancient, rocky highland landscape dotted with old stone monoliths and spiral-etched standing stones. These people, while still quintessentially Breton (if are a teeeeny bit less refined), are shaped by their cold, marginal lands remote from the High Iliac city culture, as well as their Reach heritage (like real world Romanised Briton, or Winterfell in ASOIAF, they're just the ones on the "good side" of the wall). They have some similarity with the Nords to the east, though are more bound by the innate Breton caste nature. Where a Nord farmer is just a warrior during harvest season, Breton villagers are, for the most part, fearful peasants hiding behind their plate-armoured knightly caste at the first sign of trouble.
This contrasts with the Iliac city-states which represent the "civilised", mercantile, rich and eminently networked world we typically think of as Breton. But even Wayrest and Daggerfall offer the possibility of intriguing contrasts that were set up in TES2, but never capitalised on in ESO. They were set up as politically and historically distinct, with Daggerfall being pro-empire, being founded much earlier before the rise of Breton identity was even a thing, and Wayrest, rather anti-imperial, more mercantile, rich, and being founded by merchants during a time when the concept of "Breton-ness" was established and thriving. These differences alone quickly suggest roots for internecine struggle, be it the clashes between the supremacy of heritage or wealth, imperialism and independence, or just us-and-them ratoinale wrapped in more proximal, surface drivers of whatever fractuituisness and conflict might make a good story.
If I seem to be crapping on anyone's ideas, please let me know. I'm also very passionate about the Bretons and High Rock, I'm enjoying the discussion and love how passionate people get about the lore and the story, and just because I think my ideas are all so amazing and just so plainly self-evident, I acknowledge it doesn't mean I'm innately right, or that my perception is never flawed.
I welcome the discussion, Atro We do disagree on some points, but that's perfectly fine so long as it's done civilly.
As far as Todd's Howard statement goes, I would not go so far as to suggest fullblown magitech with horseless carriages or the like, but it just feels so odd to me to have Altmer have full-blown clocks, only to have Bretons, who have repeatedly been described as inventive, only have bucket sundials. I'd love to see some magical advancements from out of High Rock to reflect their reputation, but there's precious little to be had. Likewise, we have zero powerful magical figures despite how the devs have gone on record to say that magic and Bretons are inextricably linked. It's just so odd to me to see the source material neglected in such a way.
I can agree with the sentiment of scaling, but given the plethora of magical stores and its real economical impact on Tamriel, which is openly discussed by characters in the game, I still think Todd Howard's statement is objectively wrong. If magic were to disappear from Tamriel, perhaps you would not instantly know in the moment, but the implied economical ramifications are so severe that it is a stretch of the imagination to believe that people would not be talking about the disappearance of magic and its impact on Tamriel's economy in the following days.
I do think there's more to Bretons than just the charters and enlightenment vibes I spoke of, however, I also think Bretons are severely lacking in something unique to justify their reputation as intelligent and inventive. Enlightenment vibes is a niche that hasn't been filled by any other race in Tamriel, hence why I so strongly support them getting something that makes them at least enlightenment-adjacent, due to their reputation.
On the contrary, High Rock also has feudal vibes and stated inequity, which I feel could have been done so much better. I honestly think it is regrettable that they leaned so much into the feudal and medieval vibes, because Bretons are so much more than that. I would argue that due to the oversaturation of medieval feudal fantasy in media, boiling Bretons down to medieval feudal fantasy is doing them a disservice, just as you would argue that making them overly enlightened would be the same.
I don't think Bretons should be devoid of grit. I don't think they should be missing the scheming, politicking, backstabbing and things that make Bretons... Bretons. But I do think that they need something unique to set them apart from generic feudal medieval fantasy, because upward mobility and classism without depth aren't going to cut it. Seeing Bretons be boiled down to their representation in High Isle, in my opinion, feels lifeless, lacking in depth, and uninspired. It turns me off from the race because it squanders their potential.
I would prefer to have a middle ground between enlightenment and feudalism, so at the bottom you have people with no rights and privileges, and then the more you pay in taxes, the higher your class and the more privileges you get. This in my opinion would add a sort of progression from lower to middle and upper class, meaning all the classes would be distinct from each other instead of just being meaningless jargon that is irrelevant and indistinct from other lands in Tamriel.
Your ideas are valid, just as valid as mine are. I would love to see more cultural distinction between different fiefdoms in Breton lands, but sadly we just don't see it represented well. They feel homogenized.
Thanks for the response, @BlissfulDelusions . It sounds like differences we have in vision are only a matter of degrees, largely. And not even incompatible at that.2 -
Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭I feel like enlightenment needs darkness to have any meaning, and think the Breton-defining characteristics of acquisitiveness, elitism/caste-bound society and fractiousness, and the grittiness of a somewhat barbaric, dark-ages world would accentuate its significance.
I like how such assumptions would mirror the defining duality in the Breton creation myth, reflecting both the elvish strive to touch the divines and the mortal-oriented gritty, of-this-world, belly-in-the-dirt, trapped in the cycle of rebirth stuff. Like the cognitive dissonance in writing a charter for the good of all man, all while dumping buckets of excrement on the peasants below.
Another great opportunity to distinguish and define who the Bretons are, and its taken straight from how Bretons are built in previous games: whereas High Elves gain a bonus to destruction magic, in Oblivion and Skyrim, Bretons are given bonuses to conjuration. While in ESO has (so far) failed to recognise its significance, we can still ask what it means in the "real" world to have a bonus to conjuration. It suggests to me that the quintessential Breton mage, rather than being a high fantasy, fireball wielding Gandalf, rather draws power from bargaining with greater daedra (or dominating lesser daedra), and is more evocative to a medieval cloistered ceremonial magician (or its pulp-fantasy equivalent). To me, capitalising on that aspect paints their magic -at best- in a slightly sinister, creepy, morally-ambiguous light characteristic of classic Elder Scrolls (including ESO at times!) sets them apart in an intriguing way. Or taken to its logical extreme could touch on the sort of Kirkbridean "the abyss looks into you".
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psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭BlissfulDelusions wrote: »INTRODUCTION:
Just so we're clear, there are both things that I like and dislike, and I am sure plenty of people have enjoyed or will enjoy the content and lore. If you enjoyed the chapter, good for you! I am happy for you. This is just a lore analysis going over what I think was done well, what I think could have been done better, and what I am hoping to see before the year is done as far as improving the Bretons’ image goes. I wrote two other threads on this subject, the first expressing hope for the year’s teaser, and the second expressing disappointment with the priorities of the reveal. This will probably be the last thread I cook up on the subject. TL;DR at the bottom.
With that said, here are some canon descriptions of the Bretons:
Dialogue from TES3:
"Passionate and eccentric, poetic and flamboyant, intelligent and willful, Bretons feel an inborn, instinctive bond with the mercurial forces of magic and the supernatural. Many great sorcerers have come from their home province of High Rock, and in addition to their quick and perceptive grasp of spellcraft, enchantment, and alchemy, even the humblest of Bretons can boast a high resistance to destructive and dominating magical energies."
ESO’s pre-release Daggerfall Covenant Description:
“Passionate and flamboyant, intelligent and resourceful, the Bretons are renowned and talented craftsmen, shrewd merchants, gallant cavaliers, and inventive wizards.”
TES2’s King Edward, Part IX:
“Bretons like things explained, clear and reasonable, in sequence, so one thing follows from another, and you know where you are.”
ESO’s Breton Motif:
“The gleaming heavy armor of a Breton knight is as tough and practical as that of a Nord housecarl, but its pleasing form exhibits a subtle sophistication that is reminiscent of Elven elegance. One sees the same influence in Breton weaponry, which is beautiful yet undeniably deadly.”
Excerpt from ‘The Bretons: Mongrels or Paragons?’:
“The passionate race of Bretons embodies the strengths of both Men and Mer—as well as their flaws.”
Excerpt from ‘Orcs? Could Be Worse’:
“And if there's one thing Bretons know how to do, it's make money. Well, it's not the only thing we do, but you get the idea.”
These descriptions speak of an inherently magical race known for their intelligence, resourcefulness, inventiveness, creativity and mercantile pursuits. A race that is a middle ground between Elven and human races, taking the best from both worlds and pursuing elegance without compromising on practicality. It’s what made me fall in love with the Bretons. Yes, Bretons have an undeniably “generic” appearance with their medieval aesthetic, the same way Nords have a viking aesthetic and Imperials have a Roman aesthetic. I love the medieval flair as an aesthetic, but my biggest problem is that the writers have largely chosen to take lore inspiration from their aesthetic inspiration, which is arguably the greatest contributor to their reputation as bland and boring due to how the medieval setting saturates the fantasy genre.
So what did High Isle do for the Bretons?
THE GOOD:
I love the amount of eccentric and flamboyant Bretons we meet, from the quirky Valentyn Dantaine and Moric Guidroz, to the “charming” Jakarn, Sir Coliinean Maurard, and Sir Langley. The lore on Tobin Moorcroft and his building of the Colossus with craft-mages is great, as are the various plots and schemes you find in quests throughout the chapter. I especially liked “The All Flags Curse” on the All Flags Islet and “An Experiment with Peace“ at the Steadfast Manor. Squire Rayan also made for an exemplary scholastic knight, and the Tribute players in the Wayrest chapter are delightfully insufferable.
The druid lore is stellar, and I am really excited that ZOS decided to explore the Bretons’ human roots. It was great to see the Wyrd be reaffirmed to be Bretons culturally, as with the introduction of Reachman lore with Markarth, many people I know had begun to see the Wyrd as being Reachmen instead of Bretons. I am also glad to see that the History of House Dufort showed how anyone can climb to the ranks of nobility, given enough time, guile and resources. I also fell in love with Count Damard Dufort, who confirmed that all Bretons, no matter who they might be, have at least some magical talent.
THE BAD:
Unfortunately, one of the chapter’s strong points is also one of its weakest. My biggest gripe with the druids is that they separate themselves from the city-dwellers culturally, creating a troubling dichotomy between “cool anti-establishment nature-dwelling Bretons” and “boring mainstream city-dwelling Bretons,” analogous to the Dunmeri Ashlanders and housemen. This means that lore that druids get isn’t necessarily applied to the city-dwellers, such as how the druids call themselves “manmer,” which the mainstream Bretons unfortunately do not. I am honestly worried if the unique take on the conflict between Men and Mer that @ZOS_LeamonTuttle promised us will be something acknowledged and believed by all Bretons, or if it will be an exclusively druidic belief. Furthermore, druids do not live on the mainland in High Rock, as confirmed in the Q4 prologue. They feel so far removed from Bretondom that they are virtually unimportant. They are, in essence, Bretons who lost against the Alessians and the Direnni and tried to get away from the boring mainstream Bretons, but then got colonized by the boring mainstream Bretons anyways.
Despite the Bretons’ reputation as inventive and intelligent, there is nothing in the chapter that reflects this reputation. There are no books on the Bretons' philosophy, no books on the laws protecting the citizens of High Rock, no respected Breton academies or universities, and no inventive Bretons or books on inventions created by Bretons. While Altmer got full-fledged clocks with Summerset, this chapter only gave the Bretons pitiful bucket sundials. Though Tales of Tribute originated in High Isle, none of the game's creators are Bretons. They consist of a Redguard, an Altmer, an Orc, a Nord and a Bosmer. Zero Bretons. There is also a tragically low amount of variety in food furnishings, despite how some of the best cooks have been Bretons. I would have loved to see food such as souffle, chocolate, croissants, pizza and pancakes, but instead all we got was seafood. And a very small amount of it, too, compared to the food variety found in Blackwood, Western Skyrim and Elsweyr.
A big problem with the writing is that the writers operate off of Todd Howard’s credo that, “If magic suddenly disappeared from the world, most people wouldn’t notice.” While I am aware of Todd’s seniority at Bethesda Game Studios, I would respectfully like to remind everyone that this is The Elder Scrolls, which has an in-universe “Mages Guild” that the average person seems to be aware of. Unless the average person is a hermit that avoids social interactions at all cost, most people would realistically talk about it if the continent-spanning magic monopoly with a facility in the majority of cities and townships in Tamriel became obsolete. Not to mention the sheer amount of spellcasters we encounter in every faction that would suddenly become powerless, the magical shops set up in every town and city that would be out of business, or the implications of the Tribunal losing their powers. You can argue that Howard is right when magic becomes less prominent in 4E, but we are in 2E, so I think it is senseless to apply that to TESO. By shoehorning a low fantasy vision into the game, the writers are robbing the Bretons of one of their key traits, while still letting the Altmer keep their famous magical institutions, letting the Bosmer keep their magical green singing necessary to grow their homes, and letting the Dunmer keep their living gods and magical mushroom towers. In my opinion, it is entirely out of touch with the setting.
MISSED OPPORTUNITIES:
I immediately fell in love with Sergeant Dupertuis and Charbel Pamarc, whose dialogue I used to ask about the Rights Charter and legal protections in Breton society for the Loremaster Q&A. Why was the Q&A a missed opportunity? Because 1), it was phrased in a way that made it difficult to ask questions relevant to all Bretons, 2), it was heavily delayed, and 3), when it finally did arrive, almost all the questions that were answered were already answered in-game, defeating the point of hosting the Q&A. As was pointed out by lorehounds in one thread, and then later reaffirmed in another, the Loremaster Q&A's are meant to answer questions NOT answered in-game. Reaffirming the Rights Charter would have been a perfect opportunity to illustrate why the Bretons are regarded as intelligent and more enlightened than the rest of Tamriel. It is not even that far-fetched, in my opinion, as the Orcs of the First Orsinium also had a charter granting them rights. The Rights Charter can also coexist with Amenos, as modern democracies with constitutions also operate prison camps with inhumane conditions. I would very much welcome a second Loremaster's Archive answering more of the questions asked about the Bretons, and seeing the Rights Charter reaffirmed.
While I think the lore of the knightly orders introduced with the island is mostly good, the notion that the Oaken Order somehow makes members of a continent-spanning magic monopoly feel threatened is ludicrous. I would be more inclined to believe the claim if the Oaken Order threatened the Mages Guild's interests on the Systres specifically, or if the claim had been made about a Bretonic magical institution as capable and renowned as the College of Sapiarchs. Because the Oaken order is tucked away on some faraway islands, saying that they threaten members of the Mages Guild comes across as baseless posturing. Why the Bretons did not get any renowned educational institutions when they are canonically regarded as an intellectual race baffles me.
Noble Ranks and Titles speaks of unique customs in the different regions of High Rock, but the subcultures of these regions are not explored. I would have loved to read lorebooks on the subcultures of Stormhaven, Rivenspire and Bangkorai written in the same vein as Glenumbra’s People or Glenumbra’s Towns and Cities.
I am very disappointed to see that the chapter did not revitalize TES2 lore like the creation myth about the Light and the Dark or the pantheon of minor Breton gods. I think it would be interesting to see Bretons perhaps have a more rationalizing take on the conflict between Anu and Padomay and the birth of the Aurbis, given their reputation as a race of logicians. It was also disappointing to not get lore on the history of King Edward and the Immortal Sage.
Ember has a neat story, but I think a Direnni companion would have been a good opportunity to explore the modern relationship between the Bretons and Clan Direnni, or even dive into the Direnni account of their own downfall, as their perspective has never been properly explored. I am also disappointed to see that the Society of the Steadfast is not led by a Breton family like the Motierres, who are well-established and already recognized as nobility in Cyrodiil in 2E.
While it was nice to get lore on the Bretons’ views on honor, when comparing it to real-life chivalric values it reads like a complete copy of the ten chivalric commandments. A huge opportunity was missed by not exploring how the Bretons rationalize scheming and politicking as honorable, such as how they could argue that assassinating political opponents would save more lives than forcing a population to starve through a siege. To copy real-life chivalric values almost entirely is both bland and boring, and does not contribute to improving the Bretons’ poor reputation.
The main quest’s focus on classism in Breton society sounds good on paper, but I think too little effort is made to highlight the differences between the classes and what sort of benefits people get from being part of a higher caste aside from the obvious ones (wealth, influence). Without showcasing how the classism in High Rock makes it different from the rest of Tamriel, the main quest could essentially have been told anywhere else and still made perfect sense. I think something that could have made the Bretons’ classism interesting would be to make it segregating, with certain privileges only being reserved for certain classes, or services refusing to serve certain castes.
I was glad to see the Bretons receive multicultural influences with the bardic performances played on the Swedish Nyckelharpa, but the songs do not really add anything to Breton culture at large. I would have loved to hear bardic performances about profiteering, politicking and upward mobility, or Breton values such as freedom and honor, but sadly, the music focuses specifically on life on the Systres. It does not feel applicable to Bretons in High Rock at all.
I love the Dutch Imperial influences that the chapter introduced with House Dufort’s shipbuilding, providing ships for “every navy afloat,” but this lore is diminished by Colovian engineers designing the All-Flags Fleet instead of Bretons. Sure, Breton laborers built the fleet, but not letting them mastermind its creation takes away from their reputation as intelligent and creative thinkers at best, and at worst boils them down to being a cheap labor race. It essentially robs them of what could have been one of their greatest achievements, which is just a spit in the face when the accomplished Direnni were retconned to be Altmer. I think a good decision would be to reclaim some important Direnni figures such as Ryain and Raven as Bretons, or at the very least mixed Altmer/Breton descent.
TL;DR:
To me, High Isle does not feel like a Breton chapter. It feels like an Imperial chapter that relegates the Bretons to being the Empire’s henchmen. Little of the lore introduced in the chapter is applicable to Bretons in High Rock due to how the druids reject the mainstream Breton culture, as well as the focus on the island culture rather than Breton culture at large. The applicable lore that we do get is mostly the same bland generic medieval stuff that most people think makes the Bretons boring. I have honestly seen far more enthusiasm for the Imperial lore, Maormer lore and Redguard lore on High Isle.
As someone who loves Bretons and who wanted to see this year do their descriptions justice, I feel immensely disappointed with what has been delivered with Q1 and Q2, and so I need to ask, WHERE are the Elven influences on their society? WHERE is the Rights Charter? WHERE are the famed and powerful Breton mages one would expect to see when they are such a magically inclined race? WHY are there no Breton theaters? WHY are there no prestigious magical institutes that rival the Mages Guild? WHY are there no books about Bretonic philosophy? WHY are there no Breton inventors? WHY does their classism not have any depth? All this would have helped to make the Bretons more interesting, and yet none of it is seen. None!
So what can be done to help the Bretons at this point? Personally, I hope that Q3 and Q4 will add unique lore that is relevant to both mainstream Bretons and druidic Bretons as well as lore that connects the two, and lore that reflects their descriptions of being intelligent and inventive. (Heck, I’d gladly volunteer to write a few lorebooks if I could, and I noted down the books I'd like to write/see here.) Dividing the druidic Bretons and mainstream Bretons, then giving more interesting lore to the former than the latter is not a good start to pulling them out of their reputation as the “bland, generic fantasy” race, since the medieval fantasy is what people generally think makes the mainstream Bretons boring. If Q3 and Q4 continue to explore the druids and leave mainstream Bretons in their current state, I fear that their reputation will never be fixed. As a fan of Bretons, I sincerely hoped that ZOS would redeem them by making them less generic, but with what has been delivered so far I am honestly starting to lose interest in the race.
What are people’s thoughts on this? Do you agree with my sentiment that the mainstream Bretons need to be given lore that makes them less generic, or do you think the chapter has improved their public image?
You sound like I did back when Summerset released.
Welcome to the club ;]
Jokes aside this was a good read and very insightful. I'll definitely be avoiding this dlc as I had the exact same concerns that you now seem to be confirming.No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.1 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭BlissfulDelusions wrote: »
I also want to defend Todd Howard a bit. Judging from other interviews he has done over the years, he's a very big believer in keeping things unexplored, mysterious and obscure. Magic is almost by definition something unknowable and mysterious, and as such, should be kept away from the mundane, i.e. everyday life. So in his games, the arcane is something rare and outstanding.
If this is the definition of magic in ESO - that is comprises every spirit, it is the energy of all living things - then I do not understand why it should be kept unknowable and mysterious - kept away from the mundane - it is like saying do not explore everything that you might be capable of - everything within.
Magic (Magicka in the Ayleid Language)[1] is the general term used for the focusing of raw energy into various properties and for various purposes. This raw energy, often referred to as magicka, flows from Aetherius into Mundus by way of the sun and stars, and from it the Mundus was created.[2][3] Magicka comprises every spirit, it is the energy of all living things and can be harnessed in a variety of ways. Despite thousands of years of study, there is an enormous amount of speculation about how magic is generated, how it might be used by Aedra and Daedra, and how it might flow between living things.[3][4]
This exactly. Heck, there is enough lore to piece together that I was able to write a spellcasting manual for roleplaying purposes. The linking in the source list is a bit shoddy, still, but imo at this point there is no excuse NOT to write an extensive spellbook.
Anyways for the discussion on Ayleid/Alinor assets, the excuse they used to differentiate the Altmer/Ayleid Ancient Elf assets back in the day was that "There are obvious similarities between Altmer architecture and that of their cousins the Ayleids, but there are clear differences as well. High Elven architecture is cleaner and more direct, with less baroque ornamentation than that of the Wild Elves." IMO this was just to excuse the asset reuse back in the day, and since the Direnni use Alinor ruins on Balfiera, the ruins in High Rock and on Auridon should be updated.
That's unlikely to happen, though. Base game redesign is not something I expect will come anytime soon, if it ever does. It's just not a priority.
The Todd quote is just nonsense and it reveals a lot abour why this series has changed over the years. We need to stop taking it seriously and acknowledge it as a major about-face for the series.
For me, the core of ES is that magic and the mundane are inseperable. Thats like half the reason why Daggerfall and Morrowind was so cool. The supernatural intersects with everyday politics and the lives of regular people. Gods literally walk among the people. Wizards are like scientists studying the world. Emperor's have a divine connection to Akatosh.
The damned SUN is a magical hole in reality! You think farmers wouldnt notice if it just disappeared??
What the hell is Todd even talking about? He described the exact opposite of what the franchise is at its best.
But thats just my take. Maybe I'm alone here. Maybe ES has always been a low-fantasy, GoT style setting and I'm just delusionalEdited by psychotrip on 24 July 2022 15:58No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.2 -
BlissfulDeluge✭✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »BlissfulDelusions wrote: »
I also want to defend Todd Howard a bit. Judging from other interviews he has done over the years, he's a very big believer in keeping things unexplored, mysterious and obscure. Magic is almost by definition something unknowable and mysterious, and as such, should be kept away from the mundane, i.e. everyday life. So in his games, the arcane is something rare and outstanding.
If this is the definition of magic in ESO - that is comprises every spirit, it is the energy of all living things - then I do not understand why it should be kept unknowable and mysterious - kept away from the mundane - it is like saying do not explore everything that you might be capable of - everything within.
Magic (Magicka in the Ayleid Language)[1] is the general term used for the focusing of raw energy into various properties and for various purposes. This raw energy, often referred to as magicka, flows from Aetherius into Mundus by way of the sun and stars, and from it the Mundus was created.[2][3] Magicka comprises every spirit, it is the energy of all living things and can be harnessed in a variety of ways. Despite thousands of years of study, there is an enormous amount of speculation about how magic is generated, how it might be used by Aedra and Daedra, and how it might flow between living things.[3][4]
This exactly. Heck, there is enough lore to piece together that I was able to write a spellcasting manual for roleplaying purposes. The linking in the source list is a bit shoddy, still, but imo at this point there is no excuse NOT to write an extensive spellbook.
Anyways for the discussion on Ayleid/Alinor assets, the excuse they used to differentiate the Altmer/Ayleid Ancient Elf assets back in the day was that "There are obvious similarities between Altmer architecture and that of their cousins the Ayleids, but there are clear differences as well. High Elven architecture is cleaner and more direct, with less baroque ornamentation than that of the Wild Elves." IMO this was just to excuse the asset reuse back in the day, and since the Direnni use Alinor ruins on Balfiera, the ruins in High Rock and on Auridon should be updated.
That's unlikely to happen, though. Base game redesign is not something I expect will come anytime soon, if it ever does. It's just not a priority.
The Todd quote is just nonsense and it reveals a lot abour why this series has changed over the years. We need to stop taking it seriously and acknowledge it as a major about-face for the series.
For me, the core of ES is that magic and the mundane are inseperable. Thats like half the reason why Daggerfall and Morrowind was so cool. The supernatural intersects with everyday politics and the lives of regular people. Gods literally walk among the people. Wizards are like scientists studying the world. Emperor's have a divine connection to Akatosh.
The damned SUN is a magical hole in reality! You think farmers wouldnt notice if it just disappeared??
What the hell is Todd even talking about? He described the exact opposite of what the franchise is at its best.
But thats just my take. Maybe I'm alone here. Maybe ES has always been a low-fantasy, GoT style setting and I'm just delusional
You are definitely not alone on that. I am right there with you; and judging by the feedback on the OP so far, I think it's a common sentiment.
I think ZOS did decent enough with Altmer. I liked the lore on calians and apraxis, and Altmer thankfully don't have the rep of being bland and boring. Though I do think they could have done more for Altmer, too.
For Bretons, though, I feel like the situation is that much more dire, because they are so disliked and disrespected in the community due to the heavy medieval inspirations. I wish they would have done something with Reachmen and Bretons for the Reach, but at this point, I think the best we can hope for is lorebooks on the city Bretons, cause the focus seems to be on druids with Q4.
And druids are just... too removed. They feel entirely irrelevant.
But yeah, I wish we'd see more magical inventions/innovations for the Bretons.Former completionist with all achievements unlocked up until Update 29 (Flames of Ambition). Avid RPer, writer, and former Breton lover. Then Legacy of the Bretons was released and I realized just how boring and uninspired the Bretons are according to the writers.2 -
kaushad✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »The Todd quote is just nonsense and it reveals a lot abour why this series has changed over the years. We need to stop taking it seriously and acknowledge it as a major about-face for the series.
For me, the core of ES is that magic and the mundane are inseperable. Thats like half the reason why Daggerfall and Morrowind was so cool. The supernatural intersects with everyday politics and the lives of regular people. Gods literally walk among the people. Wizards are like scientists studying the world. Emperor's have a divine connection to Akatosh.
The damned SUN is a magical hole in reality! You think farmers wouldnt notice if it just disappeared??
What the hell is Todd even talking about? He described the exact opposite of what the franchise is at its best.
But thats just my take. Maybe I'm alone here. Maybe ES has always been a low-fantasy, GoT style setting and I'm just delusional
I think it's peculiar to Morrowind, not that it should be. Every TES game has wizards, including some who sell services to the public. Most feature gods intervening and speaking in person.
TESIII went further:- The Mages Guild offered a teleportation service, which really undercut the need for silt strider or boat travel by cost and convenience, if for a smaller range of destinations and possibly without cargo.
- The reeducation centre was in a big rock, suspended above the rest of the Temple complex.
- Mushroom towers were not only grown using magic, but they were designed to exclude people who couldn't fly.
- The Ghostfence.
- Dunmer apparently talked to their dead relatives. We didn't see this happen in TESIII and there was a possibility that it was just practice of faith, but ESO confirms that talking to ghosts is a normal family activity for Dunmer.
- Slaves had enchanted bracers to prevent them from casting spells.
- The shaman of the Skaal could arrange a traditional execution by summoning the Caenlorn Wolves to eat the condemned.
That's to say nothing about the shenigans of Dagoth Ur, Almalexia and Hircine.
High Isle doesn't do a lot of that, but I don't think it's less magical than Daggerfall. The guests to the summit are given magical amulets or something. I don't remember what they are or what they do, but I do remember that they were magically sabotaged. That reminds me how of Princess Elysana's enchanting a robe to summon a daedra in order to assassinate Lord Castellian. And the Ascendant Order are magic terrorists; they create earthquakes and storms.1 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »The Todd quote is just nonsense and it reveals a lot abour why this series has changed over the years. We need to stop taking it seriously and acknowledge it as a major about-face for the series.
For me, the core of ES is that magic and the mundane are inseperable. Thats like half the reason why Daggerfall and Morrowind was so cool. The supernatural intersects with everyday politics and the lives of regular people. Gods literally walk among the people. Wizards are like scientists studying the world. Emperor's have a divine connection to Akatosh.
The damned SUN is a magical hole in reality! You think farmers wouldnt notice if it just disappeared??
What the hell is Todd even talking about? He described the exact opposite of what the franchise is at its best.
But thats just my take. Maybe I'm alone here. Maybe ES has always been a low-fantasy, GoT style setting and I'm just delusional
I think it's peculiar to Morrowind, not that it should be. Every TES game has wizards, including some who sell services to the public. Most feature gods intervening and speaking in person.
TESIII went further:- The Mages Guild offered a teleportation service, which really undercut the need for silt strider or boat travel by cost and convenience, if for a smaller range of destinations and possibly without cargo.
- The reeducation centre was in a big rock, suspended above the rest of the Temple complex.
- Mushroom towers were not only grown using magic, but they were designed to exclude people who couldn't fly.
- The Ghostfence.
- Dunmer apparently talked to their dead relatives. We didn't see this happen in TESIII and there was a possibility that it was just practice of faith, but ESO confirms that talking to ghosts is a normal family activity for Dunmer.
- Slaves had enchanted bracers to prevent them from casting spells.
- The shaman of the Skaal could arrange a traditional execution by summoning the Caenlorn Wolves to eat the condemned.
That's to say nothing about the shenigans of Dagoth Ur, Almalexia and Hircine.
High Isle doesn't do a lot of that, but I don't think it's less magical than Daggerfall. The guests to the summit are given magical amulets or something. I don't remember what they are or what they do, but I do remember that they were magically sabotaged. That reminds me how of Princess Elysana's enchanting a robe to summon a daedra in order to assassinate Lord Castellian. And the Ascendant Order are magic terrorists; they create earthquakes and storms.
Which do you find more memorable? Which do you find more creative? Dunmer magic? Or Breton magic?Edited by psychotrip on 27 July 2022 00:53No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
kaushad✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »Which do you find more memorable? Which do you find more creative? Dunmer magic? Or Breton magic?
Dunmer magic, because it's more integrated into their society, by their gods, the Temple and House Telvanni, even if most Dunmer aren't casting their own spells.
Alvur Relds, in that old interview of his, said:
"Again, sir, don't think we have wizard shops on every corner, like you Westers. Of course, these days you find guilds in most of the large towns, but that's you Westers setting up in Morrowind -- not the Dunmer way. Any magic not Temple magic is thought a bit funny, at best, and black and evil at worst. All the houses have their mages, of course, and each village will have a hedgewizard or two, but not respectable-like. And conjurers and necromancers and such, well, we put them right up on poles where they belong. Of course, now, the Telvanni wizards, they're different -- like the Altmeri sorcerors, private in their towers and private in their affairs. Don't know much about them, and don't want to, sir. You don't want to meddle with them. That's all I know."
Perhaps Bretons could live up to that Western hyperbole.1 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »Which do you find more memorable? Which do you find more creative? Dunmer magic? Or Breton magic?
Dunmer magic, because it's more integrated into their society, by their gods, the Temple and House Telvanni, even if most Dunmer aren't casting their own spells.
Alvur Relds, in that old interview of his, said:
"Again, sir, don't think we have wizard shops on every corner, like you Westers. Of course, these days you find guilds in most of the large towns, but that's you Westers setting up in Morrowind -- not the Dunmer way. Any magic not Temple magic is thought a bit funny, at best, and black and evil at worst. All the houses have their mages, of course, and each village will have a hedgewizard or two, but not respectable-like. And conjurers and necromancers and such, well, we put them right up on poles where they belong. Of course, now, the Telvanni wizards, they're different -- like the Altmeri sorcerors, private in their towers and private in their affairs. Don't know much about them, and don't want to, sir. You don't want to meddle with them. That's all I know."
Perhaps Bretons could live up to that Western hyperbole.
Jeez I wonder how much of that interview is still canon. These days, it's hard to tell. That quote about westerners being more magical is certainly not the case anymore, and the comparison between telvanni and altmer is a bit far fetched, too.No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
kaushad✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »Which do you find more memorable? Which do you find more creative? Dunmer magic? Or Breton magic?
Dunmer magic, because it's more integrated into their society, by their gods, the Temple and House Telvanni, even if most Dunmer aren't casting their own spells.
Alvur Relds, in that old interview of his, said:
"Again, sir, don't think we have wizard shops on every corner, like you Westers. Of course, these days you find guilds in most of the large towns, but that's you Westers setting up in Morrowind -- not the Dunmer way. Any magic not Temple magic is thought a bit funny, at best, and black and evil at worst. All the houses have their mages, of course, and each village will have a hedgewizard or two, but not respectable-like. And conjurers and necromancers and such, well, we put them right up on poles where they belong. Of course, now, the Telvanni wizards, they're different -- like the Altmeri sorcerors, private in their towers and private in their affairs. Don't know much about them, and don't want to, sir. You don't want to meddle with them. That's all I know."
Perhaps Bretons could live up to that Western hyperbole.
Jeez I wonder how much of that interview is still canon. These days, it's hard to tell. That quote about westerners being more magical is certainly not the case anymore, and the comparison between telvanni and altmer is a bit far fetched, too.
TESIII itself contradicted the parts about skylamps and probably scribs. Dunmer are still portrayed as serious to point of humourlessness and fear of the eccentric in TESIII, but that's kind of faded away and resurfaced among some Redguards. The Altmer reference is line with their description in the game if not so much ESO, but in my opinion, that was a problem of stretching zones too thinly to give them the attention to detail that they deserve. There wasn't room in Chapter 2 for every major city in Summerset, let alone the characteristic, isolated villages ruled by petty warlords.1 -
Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We learn in the prologue currently on the PTS that the Druids of Galen embraced civilization unlike their modern counterparts. They disliked the Wyrd due to their isolationism and their love for unmarred nature. The two hostile druidic circles, the Eldertide and Firesong, are a lot like the Wyrd in that regard. The Firesong especially, which seems to be the most feral of the three circles.
I'm hoping Q4 has druidism reintroduced to modern breton culture as a whole to make the Legacy of the Bretons relevant, and druids deciding to embrace civilization like the Druids of Galen once did. We do not need the Wyrd again after all. Give us druid court mages, and Bretons making pilgrimages to druidic shrines on the mainland.Edited by Aliyavana on 1 August 2022 02:101 -
BlissfulDeluge✭✭✭✭✭We learn in the prologue that the Druids of Galen embraced civilization unlike their modern counterparts. They disliked the Wyrd due to their isolationism and their love for unmarred nature. The two hostile druidic circles, the Eldertide and Firesong, are a lot like the Wyrd in that regard. The Firesong especially, which seems to be the most feral of the three circles.
I'm hoping Q4 has druidism reintroduced to modern breton culture as a whole to make the Legacy of the Bretons relevant, and druids deciding to embrace civilization like the Druids of Galen once did. We do not need the Wyrd again after all. Give us druid court mages, and Bretons making pilgrimages to druidic shrines on the mainland.
So instead of making druidism integral to Breton culture from the start, which sounds awesome, they decided to ignore the existence of the Wyrd, Reachmen and Bosmer in order to make uNiQuE nAtUrE wOrShIp GrOuP #20421?
At this point I am willing to argue that base game High Rock did more for Bretons than Legacy of the Bretons did.
Edited by BlissfulDeluge on 1 August 2022 02:13Former completionist with all achievements unlocked up until Update 29 (Flames of Ambition). Avid RPer, writer, and former Breton lover. Then Legacy of the Bretons was released and I realized just how boring and uninspired the Bretons are according to the writers.4 -
Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BlissfulDelusions wrote: »We learn in the prologue that the Druids of Galen embraced civilization unlike their modern counterparts. They disliked the Wyrd due to their isolationism and their love for unmarred nature. The two hostile druidic circles, the Eldertide and Firesong, are a lot like the Wyrd in that regard. The Firesong especially, which seems to be the most feral of the three circles.
I'm hoping Q4 has druidism reintroduced to modern breton culture as a whole to make the Legacy of the Bretons relevant, and druids deciding to embrace civilization like the Druids of Galen once did. We do not need the Wyrd again after all. Give us druid court mages, and Bretons making pilgrimages to druidic shrines on the mainland.
So instead of making druidism integral to Breton culture from the start, which sounds awesome, they decided to ignore the existence of the Wyrd, Reachmen and Bosmer in order to make uNiQuE nAtUrE wOrShIp GrOuP #20421?
At this point I am willing to argue that base game High Rock did more for Bretons than Legacy of the Bretons did.
In making modern druids like the Wyrd, they are stripping them of uniqueness, as two breton nature-themed groups that are isolationist does no favors for them. Additionally, having druids call the god Y'ffre instead of Jephre further strips at the Breton cultural identity. If they wanted to have a unique name for him, they could have used the more obscure name of Jeh Free, or merged Jephre with the unexplored god of music, Jhim Sei, after all, Jephre is also associated with music.
There are one of the two things that make Bretons unique, the other half being their elvish roots. I do hope they are made more different from other nature groups like the Wyrd, Spinners, and Wardens. We have plenty of those.
I think druids were written like this because they had already done all of High Rock minus the piece where Jehanna is located, which is unfortunate. I do thank ZOS for expanding that one line from Arena on the Druids of Galen, as explorating them was long overdue, but I think it coulda been done better. I just hope they can salvage druids for the Bretons in Q4Edited by Aliyavana on 1 August 2022 02:262 -
BlissfulDeluge✭✭✭✭✭BlissfulDelusions wrote: »We learn in the prologue that the Druids of Galen embraced civilization unlike their modern counterparts. They disliked the Wyrd due to their isolationism and their love for unmarred nature. The two hostile druidic circles, the Eldertide and Firesong, are a lot like the Wyrd in that regard. The Firesong especially, which seems to be the most feral of the three circles.
I'm hoping Q4 has druidism reintroduced to modern breton culture as a whole to make the Legacy of the Bretons relevant, and druids deciding to embrace civilization like the Druids of Galen once did. We do not need the Wyrd again after all. Give us druid court mages, and Bretons making pilgrimages to druidic shrines on the mainland.
So instead of making druidism integral to Breton culture from the start, which sounds awesome, they decided to ignore the existence of the Wyrd, Reachmen and Bosmer in order to make uNiQuE nAtUrE wOrShIp GrOuP #20421?
At this point I am willing to argue that base game High Rock did more for Bretons than Legacy of the Bretons did.
Problem is that in making modern druids like the Wyrd, they are stripping them of uniqueness, as the Wyrd also come from the same traditions of the Nedes that roamed High Rock. Two breton isolationist groups does no favors for them. Additionally, having druids call the god Y'ffre instead of Jephre further strips at the Breton cultural identity. If they wanted to have a unique name for him, they could have used the more obscure name of Jeh Free, or merged Jephre with the unexplored god of music, Jhim Sei, after all, Jephre is also associated with music.
There are one of the two things that make Bretons unique, the other half being their elvish roots. I do hope they are made more different from other nature groups like the Wyrd, Spinners, and Wardens. We have plenty of those.
I do thank ZOS for expanding that one line from Arena on the Druids of Galen, as exploration of them was long overdue, but I think it coulda been done better. I just hope they can salvage druids for the Bretons in Q4
Exactly. The Wyrd and the Druid are essentially the same. I would have much rather they added the Druid lore to the Wyrd (as we see Wyrd witches living in huts as well), and then make druidism part of the mainstream Breton culture. Having Count Damard Dufort call himself a "court druid" instead of a "court mage" would have been so much greater.
At this point, I expect Q4 to be a druid DLC. Not an actual Breton DLC. Because I expect NONE of the lore in Q4 will be applicable to mainstream Bretons.
Edited by BlissfulDeluge on 1 August 2022 02:26Former completionist with all achievements unlocked up until Update 29 (Flames of Ambition). Avid RPer, writer, and former Breton lover. Then Legacy of the Bretons was released and I realized just how boring and uninspired the Bretons are according to the writers.1 -
Vanthras79✭✭✭✭✭I would have liked to see more motifs. Like one for each of the knightly orders, and for each of the druid circles.Norion Germain - Telvanni Wizard, Covenant Battle Mage, Mage's Guild Magister, Resident of Daggerfall Overlook, Lord of Tel Galen, Psijic Monk, Antiquarian, Breton Scholar, and Traveler.0