I thought ESO's combat was bad, until...

Alemtuzumab

...until I played FFXIV, I finally realized how much I've been spoiled by ESO's Action Combat system. I've never, ever in my life played a game that has such an AWFUL combat system as clunky as FFXIV's tab-targeting "combat". That is NOT combat, why the hell can't you attack your enemy when you're literally IN THEIR FACE? It's mind-boggling, really.

Sure, ESO's combat is like Walmart Dark Souls, but at least it feels like you're in a battle, fighting someone, and you'll feel that way since you're lv1, no more "it gets better at 60/70/80" [snip] bc it DOESN'T, it stays AWFUL due to the outdated tab-targeting system. Honestly, anyone who has played any modern games, no matter FPS, RPG, or ACT, they'd prefer action combat over tab-targeting.

I gave ESO a negative review on steam a long time ago cuz ESO is my first MMORPG, and I thought the combat was awful compared to the single-player games that I was used to; the hit-box was not accurate, the blocking disregards direction, some classes feels not as smooth as others, etc. But now I've played other MMORPG, and I feel like it's unfair to compare it to single-player games since they're fundamentally different from online games.

If you play other MMORPGs other than ESO, What are your thoughts on this topic?

[edited for profanity bypass]

Wolfpaw

Just different type.of combat FF is part of the WoW old-school combat system, ESO & GW2 is more.fluid. I prefer GW2 combat above all.

Jack-0

I tried FFXIV when they reintroduced the free trial and I don't think I even reached level 5 because of how clunky and dated the entire interface was. I found it incomprehensible that you could only move the camera *by holding a button down* - it doesn't follow the mouse automatically, it's like the game is stuck in ESO's cursor mode permanently. This is an enormous flaw, especially as I get older and find that it actually hurts to spend so much time holding down a mouse button to control the camera.

That was bad enough, but then simply awful design like manually having to look through your inventory and hand over quest items was exceptionally off-putting as well.

I didn't see much combat in levels 1-4 to be honest, the camera issues were really so dreadful that it made me completely uninterested, but based on these other dated elements I can well imagine how bland and old fashioned combat may feel!

It's a real shame as I love some of the single player FF games, especially VII, and the music is outstanding!

The best combat in an MMO I've ever played is Ultima Online, but no other MMO can hold a torch to that outstanding example of excellence from back in the day. The combat was fast, supported many varied play styles, and all in all, pretty well balanced. For example, most spells have cast times that increase with the power of the spell and the caster could be interrupted by hitting them as they cast - something I'd like to see more of in ESO, to balance out the inherent lack of risk in ranged attacks.

Zorgon_The_Revenged

Jack-0 wrote: »

That was bad enough, but then simply awful design like manually having to look through your inventory and hand over quest items was exceptionally off-putting as well.

Just right click on the item prompted for hand in and it will draw it straight from your inventory (or if multiple are available it will let you choose).

Paulytnz

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Just different type.of combat FF is part of the WoW old-school combat system, ESO & GW2 is more.fluid. I prefer GW2 combat above all.

I totally agree!

LashanW

Jack-0 wrote: »

I tried FFXIV when they reintroduced the free trial and I don't think I even reached level 5 because of how clunky and dated the entire interface was. I found it incomprehensible that you could only move the camera *by holding a button down* - it doesn't follow the mouse automatically, it's like the game is stuck in ESO's cursor mode permanently. This is an enormous flaw, especially as I get older and find that it actually hurts to spend so much time holding down a mouse button to control the camera.

I tried FFXIV a long time ago and this is the exact reason I didn't spend more than a few hours there.

But I was told recently by a friend that it can be changed to normal as other action games, maybe there's a setting to change camera movement now.

Ilsabet

I play FFXIV (going on 2 years) along with ESO (going on 7 years). My take is that they're simply different systems, and while it's absolutely understandable that someone might prefer one over the other, I find them both manageable.

While tab-targeting adds an often-awkward extra step to juggle during combat, it also makes me feel like I have more control over what I'm interacting with. I think that's why I prefer healing in XIV when I haven't taken to it as much in ESO. I can click on a party member's name and know they'll be getting the burst heal they need, rather than just tossing something out and hoping it hits the person who needs it. Obviously healing in ESO still works, but I tend to be less confident in my ability to be a good healer in ESO, and I think the difference is that element of control.

ESO combat is more fluid, and I definitely prefer the mobility and flexibility of ESO combat (cast times are the worst), but ESO fights also often feel more chaotic and I sometimes feel like I'm not even sure what I'm shooting at since everything all kind of jumbles together in the midst of combat animations and people and enemies being all over the place. It's helpful to hit Tab to highlight an enemy, but that mostly helps me see them rather than guaranteeing that my attacks will hit them. I'm by no means a combat professional in either game, but I'm pretty sure I do more button-mashing in ESO just because I have no illusions that I can keep up a perfect rotation when I can't even see what I'm trying to hit.

The one thing I do wish XIV tab-targeting would do is actually target the thing closest to me when I hit Tab. I'm pretty sure i have it set up to do that, but it still usually targets something in East Shoelace that I'm not even in combat with, so I end up having to click on my intended enemy anyway.

But yeah, different systems, they both work, and a lot of comparisons will boil down to personal preference rather than innate superiority of one over the other.

Ilsabet

LashanW wrote: »

Jack-0 wrote: »

I tried FFXIV when they reintroduced the free trial and I don't think I even reached level 5 because of how clunky and dated the entire interface was. I found it incomprehensible that you could only move the camera *by holding a button down* - it doesn't follow the mouse automatically, it's like the game is stuck in ESO's cursor mode permanently. This is an enormous flaw, especially as I get older and find that it actually hurts to spend so much time holding down a mouse button to control the camera.

I tried FFXIV a long time ago and this is the exact reason I didn't spend more than a few hours there.

But I was told recently by a friend that it can be changed to normal as other action games, maybe there's a setting to change camera movement now.

I think what makes the difference there is that interacting in XIV is reliant on point-and-click, so you kind of have to constantly be in cursor mode so you can use the cursor. In ESO all you use clicking for is light and heavy attacks, and everything else is based on hovering the cursor over stuff and using the interact prompt. I've never tried changing the XIV camera controls to be more like ESO's, but I'm not sure how practical it would be. (This obviously will not solve any problems for you if you really don't like holding down keys to move the camera, but at least it's a bit of a rationale into why it works that way. )

zaria

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Just different type.of combat FF is part of the WoW old-school combat system, ESO & GW2 is more.fluid. I prefer GW2 combat above all.

The WOW combat system is based off squad based game like Warcraft 3 there you have to move units around, and here its good. Mount & Blade has an first or 3rd person control of an up to company level group who is way confusing.

Back in beta my first reaction was that ESO felt like an Elder Scroll game and fell in love, my only complain here is that the jumping is award compared to Skyrim, any sort of accurate jumping is hard.

WOW had one benefit, you could move with your mouse and type in chat at the same time.

Nightowl_74

I play both and don't have a favorite when it comes to the combat itself. I prefer the on screen UI and how the abilities work manually, more in FFXIV. Going from one ability to another is a lot more fluid for me than the bar swapping in ESO. As someone else said, ESO combat does feel chaotic in comparison but sometimes that's what I prefer. Other times it's not, FFXIV group content is choreographed to an extreme and doing my part perfectly (assuming I do/can) carries a certain satisfaction.

Alemtuzumab

LashanW wrote: »

Jack-0 wrote: »

I tried FFXIV when they reintroduced the free trial and I don't think I even reached level 5 because of how clunky and dated the entire interface was. I found it incomprehensible that you could only move the camera *by holding a button down* - it doesn't follow the mouse automatically, it's like the game is stuck in ESO's cursor mode permanently. This is an enormous flaw, especially as I get older and find that it actually hurts to spend so much time holding down a mouse button to control the camera.

I tried FFXIV a long time ago and this is the exact reason I didn't spend more than a few hours there.

But I was told recently by a friend that it can be changed to normal as other action games, maybe there's a setting to change camera movement now.

I spent 1250hrs in FFXIV and trust me, it does NOT change.

I mean, I love both games, but both have tons of flaws, there isn't a perfect MMORPG. FFXIV's boss design and BGM is absolutely FIRE, too bad the combat completely ruins the experience, whereas ESO's combat is fine, but I literally can't remember a single boss despite my 4000hrs mostly spent on endgame trials and dungeons...

Alemtuzumab

Ilsabet wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

Jack-0 wrote: »

I tried FFXIV when they reintroduced the free trial and I don't think I even reached level 5 because of how clunky and dated the entire interface was. I found it incomprehensible that you could only move the camera *by holding a button down* - it doesn't follow the mouse automatically, it's like the game is stuck in ESO's cursor mode permanently. This is an enormous flaw, especially as I get older and find that it actually hurts to spend so much time holding down a mouse button to control the camera.

I tried FFXIV a long time ago and this is the exact reason I didn't spend more than a few hours there.

But I was told recently by a friend that it can be changed to normal as other action games, maybe there's a setting to change camera movement now.

I think what makes the difference there is that interacting in XIV is reliant on point-and-click, so you kind of have to constantly be in cursor mode so you can use the cursor. In ESO all you use clicking for is light and heavy attacks, and everything else is based on hovering the cursor over stuff and using the interact prompt. I've never tried changing the XIV camera controls to be more like ESO's, but I'm not sure how practical it would be. (This obviously will not solve any problems for you if you really don't like holding down keys to move the camera, but at least it's a bit of a rationale into why it works that way. )

I looked everywhere to find a way to change the camera when I started XIV, sadly, there is none...I had to set a macro on my mouse called "camera" to constantly hold down the right mouse button, and I discovered that's not practical at all due to the amount of clicking you have to do in the game, which also bothers me because I cannot play it on controller cuz it's even worse. I'm kinda used to it now tho, but it's still annoying, especially considering how much falling off the arena mech they have in that game (Remember Leviathan Ex? Why bother have mechs like that when you can't rotate the camera 360 degrees easily?) Yep, so no more endgame raiding for me...it's simply not fun at all when you're fighting the control half of the time...

Ksariyu

I thought ESO's combat was bad until. . . actually, no, I still kind of feel that way. I'm not going to write a whole paragraph just to cover what everyone else has said regarding FF being a completely different system (Comparing Diablo to CoD essentially), but I would urge you to look at other games with similar systems to ESO. TERA, Blade and Soul, and Black Desert are all better examples of a fluid, functioning action combat system. I don't hate ESO's combat (Maybe some things), but I've certainly never felt "spoiled" by it when trying a different game.

Kesstryl

I do prefer ESO combat to tab targeting, except for LA weaving. Freely looking around with the mouse instead of holding a mouse button to look, keybinding auto run, and pointing at what I want to hit are easiest on my carpal tunnel problems. LA weaving is not. For end game I stick to tanks and healers, and for questing my DPS toons do not LA weave. I will LA weave on bosses, dragons, and witch pikes on all toons if my hands are having a good day, and in group content if on a tank or healer but I will never DPS in group content.

Hurbster

After years playing WoW, then ESO for many years, I like both systems. Took me a while to get back into tab targeting but it all came back quickly. Went to legacy camera, changed strafe to a and d and boom, all sorted.

Both games have been criticised a lot for the combat, I wrote a post once about how the general perception of the combat in ESO was that it was bad. I always liked the combat myself, its many other things that have made me take an extended/permanent break.

WiseSky

Elder scrolls Combat is really bad if you don't have an MMO mouse and a Gamepad like the g13.

Once you do it's pretty an amazing feeling.

But after playing Tokyo GhostWire with a PS5 Haptic Triggers any K/M is just a joke.

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

Tab targeting is as easy and intuitive as action combat. Neither are hard.

FFXIV is just particularly bad at tab targeting to what you mentally hope it would target next, assisted by you pointing in that general direction.

My MMO experience to date is All of them, but originally as a raider in Everquest 2. I'm not that old, but old enough to have seen it all.

xaraan

Yea, ESO was the first MMO I ever tried and friends got me to try a couple others that used the more typical tab target system and I just couldn't get past it. Once I experienced this type of combat, the other just feels clunky and out of date (and non-voice acted games feel cheap to me too now).

newtinmpls

Jack-0 wrote: »

I tried FFXIV when they reintroduced the free trial and I don't think I even reached level 5 because of how clunky and dated the entire interface was. I found it incomprehensible that you could only move the camera *by holding a button down* .

Tried RIFT - same thing (bold added by me) - hated it - deleted it off my machine.

There is a lot to be said for ESO at base being fairly intuitive and logical.

starkerealm

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Sure, ESO's combat is like Walmart Dark Souls...

Oh god, that's hilarious; I love it.

Ragnarok0130

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

I gave ESO a negative review on steam a long time ago cuz ESO is my first MMORPG, and I thought the combat was awful compared to the single-player games that I was used to;
[edited for profanity bypass]

Pardon? The only remotely good combat in TES single player games was Skyrim, and maybe Oblivion was good for the time but Morrowind made me want to pull my hair out with its stiff combat and constant missing. ESO's combat is much better than TES III or IV in my opinion. Now that Walmart Dark Souls comment..golden lol.

Waterdesk

I enjoy both ESO and FFXIV combat, but for different reasons. ESO combat is only good for pvp and the combat is very boring whenever I do pve content; the pve combat was fun when I was brand new to the game though. FFXIV's combat is fun for pve. However, I remember how things were like when I first played FFXIV, and the combat doesn't start to feel better until you reach around level 50. I suppose the good thing about ESO's combat is that it's better than FFXIV's combat for both pve and pvp during the early levels, but loses out in pve combat later on. I also like how the instanced group content is in FFXIV when compared to ESO. The combat for ESO makes this content too chaotic for my taste; FFXIV feels more structured. Guild Wars 2 has the best combat which is a good mix of action and tab target.

karekiz

Every game I have played most of the players of the game said it was the best combat they played. Generally that's because that is the game they are playing.

Mythgard1967

I actually have more playtime on FFXIV than I do on ESO. It is just different....I like them both equally; though FFXIV is definitely easier to play for someone with hand damage. I actually think the content in FFXIV is harder...or at least more punishing at the trial level; but, the combat is more friendly to my hands than ESO is.

That said, while i had done most 12 man and 24 man content in FFXIV up to Ultimate (for the 12 man) at the time I left; I have not done a ton of that in ESO....mostly because it is so much harder to get my hands to cooperate.

The FFXIV UI is just...atrocious.

I also have way more time on GW2 than ESO; GW2 combat feels the most comfortable and is not to hard or challenging for my hands. I play Engi in GW2, and i play all modes. The playstyle was pretty smooth and intuitive. Of the MMO's I have played; going back to EQ in 1999; GW2 is probably my favorite of the MMO combat.

I would agree that you just cant compare a single player arpg to an mmo. They just are not the same kind of game. I am also one of the weirdo's that wasnt super fond of Dark Souls combat (yes, I know that was the selling point for that series).

Mushroomancer

I have been playing FFXIV since the free trial came back online and I've been playing almost everyday.
Maybe I'm just burnt out on the costant disappointments from ESO and ZOS, but FFXIV feels so refreshing right now.
I will concede that the early levels are painfully boring when it comes to combat, because most jobs don't really have a rotation and resort to spamming a couple of skills. The story for the base game is charming enough to carry you through it though (if you are into more classic JRPG-style storytelling), and it's reportedly the weakest part of the story. Also the first expansion, Heavensward, has been a treat story-wise.

That being said, honestly I don't think there's much of a point to comparing the two combat systems. They are so vastly different, it would be like saying Pokémon has a worse combat system than Skyrim because it's turn based.
Maybe it's just not your cup of tea.

Personally I find ESO's combat, at least in PvE, pretty shallow. There's not that much depth to it, really. It's just hit button, skill fires, keep the rotation going and alternate LAs inbetween. There's not even positional requirements or combos, or any such mechanics beyond "sit on the target's ass". Positioning is mostly very simple in most instanced content, as well.
I can't speak for PvP, as I can count the hours I've put into it on one hand, but maybe that offers a bit more depth, if anything simply because you have players interacting, each with their own skill-lines.

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

I gave ESO a negative review on steam a long time ago cuz ESO is my first MMORPG, and I thought the combat was awful compared to the single-player games that I was used to;
[edited for profanity bypass]

Pardon? The only remotely good combat in TES single player games was Skyrim, and maybe Oblivion was good for the time but Morrowind made me want to pull my hair out with its stiff combat and constant missing. ESO's combat is much better than TES III or IV in my opinion. Now that Walmart Dark Souls comment..golden lol.

The same goes for this. Skyrim and Morrowind have pretty different combat systems, with Skyrim being more or less true action combat, and Morrowind being more parameter-based with a "true action coat of paint". I don't think any of the two is inherently better, but I will say that I find Skyrim's combat way less complex, as it's basically just "Hit thing, thing takes damage, repeat till thing is dead or you are dead". ESO is also completely different from both of them, since its combat system is much more focused on using skills out of a skill bar, on weaving and very light positioning mechanics, so it's kind of a mix between the usual MMORPG skillbar combat and action combat.

Necrotech_Master

my first mmo was city of heroes, which actually used the tab-targeting system

i like this because i didnt have to "aim" a reticle at the target, tab and then fire skills which have a RPG chance to miss or hit, if your doing aoe just target an enemy in the middle of the group, unless it was a ground targeted skill which functionally is the same as we have here in ESO

so the ESO combat took a little adjustment to get used to, but i dont think the tab target system was terrible either

Wolfpaw

Waterdesk wrote: »

I enjoy both ESO and FFXIV combat, but for different reasons. ESO combat is only good for pvp and the combat is very boring whenever I do pve content; the pve combat was fun when I was brand new to the game though. FFXIV's combat is fun for pve. However, I remember how things were like when I first played FFXIV, and the combat doesn't start to feel better until you reach around level 50. I suppose the good thing about ESO's combat is that it's better than FFXIV's combat for both pve and pvp during the early levels, but loses out in pve combat later on. I also like how the instanced group content is in FFXIV when compared to ESO. The combat for ESO makes this content too chaotic for my taste; FFXIV feels more structured. Guild Wars 2 has the best combat which is a good mix of action and tab target.

GW2 combo system is a lot of fun also, eso synergies come close but not there.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Combat & Character Mechanics section, as it is better suited there.

Thanks

Castagere

I used to feel ESO combat was bad too until I played other games. FFXIV is really so overhyped. For me, the combat and the UI are both bad. As far as WOW goes yes it's tab targeting but it is so fluid.No other tab targetting MMO has ever been to match it.

Malyore

There are still fundimental flaws to how ESOs combat functions. The biggest peeve I have is that any projectile can magically (while not actually being magical mind you) home in on you AND pass through solid walls just to make contact. I don't see how ANY developer can be like "yeah thats fine". Even if by some horrible standard that's okay for an MMO, coming from rpg games like ya know.. the rest of the elder scrolls, it's infuriating to not be able to kite attacks and break line of sight to avoid damage. Then again in a game like this, damage isn't even a threat in solo play. The only damage to worry about is one shots designed to kill a tank. It feels so lazy to just stand completely still in combat and eat every hit coming out to you as long as you're healing through it. Where's the fun in that? Especially in a game where there's dodging and invisibility and gap closers. Make getting into fights in delves and such actually feel fun and rewarding.

Even Skyrims combat is REALLY dull compared to other RPGs. But if that feels way more interactive and entertaining to get into scraps, then I think eso should have tried harder to take more rpg backbone elements for their MMORPG

Suddwrath

They are two completely different styles of combat, so it is difficult to compare them on an even playing field. I played ESO for nearly 8 years and have only been playing FFXIV for a little over a year, but I prefer FFXIV’s combat and content significantly more. I have also played all of the Soulsbornkiroring games along with other Elder Scrolls games, so I can understand the allure to ESO’s action combat.

Sometimes I’ll get the ESO itch and log back in, but every single time without fail I will encounter numerous bugs and performance issues and quickly remember what drove me away from playing ESO after 8 years. FFXIV and ESO’s combat may be different, but at least one of them actually works.