Groups out-healing Coldfire and Flaming Oil

xylena_lazarow

doesurmindglow wrote: »

The OP's complaint is that ball groups are too easily outhealing the latter

The game's strongest sieges struggle against any sort of stacked healing and are hard-countered when Siege Shield is used on top of that. That leaves about a dozen other sieges that might as well not even exist. Trebs are laughable for something that fires once every 14 seconds. Ice Trebs and Oil Catapults completely fail at their intended purpose. Normal Fire Ballistas are the worst offender, as they are the default option for new PvPers, and they are incredibly weak, easily solo outhealed by all but the squishiest of potatoes.

Healing has increased dramatically over the past several years. Siege damage has stayed the same.

doesurmindglow

I tend to agree, but we have folks on the forums here claiming that optimized groups stacking heals can now "wipe easily" now that "the lag is gone."

Again, not my experience, but if that's the case I guess it's not really a problem?

From a balance standpoint my honest opinion is that the same healing ability shouldn't stack with itself. For instance, you might be able to stack someone else's Echoing Vigor on top of your own Resolving Vigor, perhaps, but you shouldn't be able to have multiple stacks of Echoing Vigor from yourself and other players all ticking at the same time.

I'm under no delusion that this will "stop" or even marginally curtail ball group power. But it will force players to be more creative with their composition, and also potentially, though not certainly, close some of the distance between an optimized group using only the very highest tick HOTs as determined by logs and a smattering of less organized players using a more diverse set of abilities. It also just makes sense.

But again, this is discussion that only matters if a) the issue is still an issue, which is to say, ball groups are not somehow irrelevant now that there's no lag as others here have ambitiously claimed; and more importantly b) if devs actually value and listen to player feedback on this matter, which is the point I find most lacking over the successive patches that have led us to where we are now.

neferpitou73

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I tend to agree, but we have folks on the forums here claiming that optimized groups stacking heals can now "wipe easily" now that "the lag is gone."

Again, not my experience, but if that's the case I guess it's not really a problem?

From a balance standpoint my honest opinion is that the same healing ability shouldn't stack with itself. For instance, you might be able to stack someone else's Echoing Vigor on top of your own Resolving Vigor, perhaps, but you shouldn't be able to have multiple stacks of Echoing Vigor from yourself and other players all ticking at the same time.

I'm under no delusion that this will "stop" or even marginally curtail ball group power. But it will force players to be more creative with their composition, and also potentially, though not certainly, close some of the distance between an optimized group using only the very highest tick HOTs as determined by logs and a smattering of less organized players using a more diverse set of abilities. It also just makes sense.

But again, this is discussion that only matters if a) the issue is still an issue, which is to say, ball groups are not somehow irrelevant now that there's no lag as others here have ambitiously claimed; and more importantly b) if devs actually value and listen to player feedback on this matter, which is the point I find most lacking over the successive patches that have led us to where we are now.

It's too early to tell if this is the case or not. I will say that it does feel slightly harder fighting zergs but that's mostly because the only times I experience lag right now is when there's 40+ players around (additionally the zergs are using tremendous amounts of soft CC). In practice I've noticed that it's definitely easier to avoid a lot of the DCs/bombs ball groups use because break free actually works now.

Cuddlypuff

neferpitou73 wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I tend to agree, but we have folks on the forums here claiming that optimized groups stacking heals can now "wipe easily" now that "the lag is gone."

Again, not my experience, but if that's the case I guess it's not really a problem?

From a balance standpoint my honest opinion is that the same healing ability shouldn't stack with itself. For instance, you might be able to stack someone else's Echoing Vigor on top of your own Resolving Vigor, perhaps, but you shouldn't be able to have multiple stacks of Echoing Vigor from yourself and other players all ticking at the same time.

I'm under no delusion that this will "stop" or even marginally curtail ball group power. But it will force players to be more creative with their composition, and also potentially, though not certainly, close some of the distance between an optimized group using only the very highest tick HOTs as determined by logs and a smattering of less organized players using a more diverse set of abilities. It also just makes sense.

But again, this is discussion that only matters if a) the issue is still an issue, which is to say, ball groups are not somehow irrelevant now that there's no lag as others here have ambitiously claimed; and more importantly b) if devs actually value and listen to player feedback on this matter, which is the point I find most lacking over the successive patches that have led us to where we are now.

It's too early to tell if this is the case or not. I will say that it does feel slightly harder fighting zergs but that's mostly because the only times I experience lag right now is when there's 40+ players around (additionally the zergs are using tremendous amounts of soft CC). In practice I've noticed that it's definitely easier to avoid a lot of the DCs/bombs ball groups use because break free actually works now.

Without lag I can now blockcast my entire bomb combo through dark convergence. It's no longer a free disengage tool for ball groups. Every bomber I've spoken to have said that they are many times more successful vs balls now compared to before the server upgrades.

ResidentContrarian

Damage reduction sources in the game vastly outnumber damage sources in the game across the board.

All damage reduction should cost a set or weapon choice, or other choice that actually matters. It needs to cost more than just a CP star or whether or not you decide to be a vampire (not even a disadvantage anymore, has zero downside).

No more free damage reduction with little consequence.

Also, healing should be similar.

Defense needs a cost, and CP stars like From the Brink, Pain's Refuge, etc. are major parts of the problem.

A CP star giving more reduction than a major buff...? Really? Why even nerf major protection?

A CP star giving a shield bigger than any other general shield, auto-activates, and can be on multiple targets just for having a heal on them?

And so on...we all should know what CP stars are broken OP by now.

They are contributing heavily to the super tank meta, and unless ZOS gonna change coldharbours to oblivion damage, they need to start firing the nerf gun there before they cut healing or any sets.

And remember, healing is nothing without adequate damage reduction. Never has been, never will be, despite what claims appear on the forums.

Ankael07

Its because siege dots can be blocked or dodged completely. That bug needs fixed first before doing balance changes

Cuddlypuff

No group is out-healing 2 stair oils, a meatbag and a well placed bomb. It is common to rack up to 50 killing blows inside a properly set-up inner keep even against multiple balls trying to push in. The problem is people just doesn't do stair oils or meatbags 90% of the time and just stand on the rooftop light attacking and waiting to die.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Lumsdenml

I think one possible solution is the buff the magic draining effect of lightning batista.

MadGrandpa25

I never played a healer before and recently leveled one just for PvP. I was amazed at how easy it was to heal through just about anything. Standing behind a ram with a siege shield up, oils pouring down, lightning staff, fire staff heavy attacks, bow strikes, and other damage made no difference. Solo attackers would get frustrated trying to take me down and just give up. The only problem I ran into was when I would find myself in the path of a ball group, then they would run me over and I would die, but they were really only my biggest threat.

I play in Cyro with my wife or as a solo potato, I'm not great but I can hold my own most of the time, but even I have to agree with OP, healing is off the charts! When I can out heal all that damage, something is horribly broken.

Holycannoli

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

How do you guys enjoy pvp ? You want siege to do all the job for you and to oneshot everyone or what ? Why even make builds , just buy some siege weapons and lets go ^^

Honestly siege needs a big nerf actually and not the opposite , so the siegelings start to do pvp again instead of placing meatbags openfield - which i see too often atm.

Not oneshot everyone but yes Cyrodiil keep battles should be primarily siege.

Siege is what sets this game's PvP apart from the others. In Rift there is a massive 3-way conquest battle but there's no siege, just zergs running around fighting each other. That gets old pretty fast.

I have more fun assaulting and defending a keep in large battles full of siege than doing anything else in this game. I'm not the only one. Siege needs to be the cornerstone of a good assault or defense, not some necro running in to bomb everyone.

Siege shouldn't be blockable (that's just LOL), and shouldn't be easily dodgeable, not for full mitigation. Siege shields should be a necessary tool again too.

It probably requires a buff to siege damage. Not a huge buff, maybe +20%. Something that makes it dangerous to assault a keep before taking out their siege with your own first.

Jaraal

xFocused wrote: »

Seeing all the comments here about nerfing siege...I just can't agree to that. Siege should be dealing significant damage and should be more of a threat. When oils do more damage then a coldfire ballista, I would say that's a issue. I've shot so many people with coldfire and they just withstand it like I'm poking them with it, lol. Siege definitely needs a buff, not a major one, not so that it's wiping large groups or getting kills every time it hits someone, but it definitely needs to be more of a threat than it is currently

The thing about cold fire is that it can be easily resisted. Cold stone, on the other hand, is an Oblivion type damage, and hits much harder. The problem is, cold stone trebs are slow and most players are smart enough to not stand in one place for long. If ZOS were to create a quicker firing cold stone ballista, things would be a lot different.

Also, there are ways to buff siege damage vs players that many aren't aware of. Educating oneself often pays dividends on the battlefield.

Sandman929

I don't really see how every discussion has to become about "ball groups". Siege isn't too weak, heal stacking (multiple instances of the same named heal) is too strong. Always has been and ZOS has never done anything about it. Instead they make up sets like dark convergence and make purging a chance for suicide with plaguebreak.

Crimsonwolf666

Agreed, siege is too weak and it gives a fair warning when its about to hit....bs especially for those ball zergs that have 150% speeds amongst them. Siege needs an upgrade or heals in PVP only, need a nerf. Stop nerfing PVE with PVP, frustrating for trial goers.

xDeusEJRx

Siege doesn't need a change, heals do. If siege was buffed that would make fights very very unfun because siege players who just siege and don't engage in fights would ruin fights fast. There have been situations where i'm already outnumbered and I get people who siege me from a tower or wall far away from me even when the odds are against me 5 to 1.

Buffing siege will just make the wall campers more annoying, plus it's obvious heals have been the problem to begin with.