Groups out-healing Coldfire and Flaming Oil

xylena_lazarow

Groups just standing in red circles trivially out-healing every siege in the game except Meatbags, which they easily move out of. They often don't even need Siege Shield. Is this how siege battles are intended to play out? And no, we don't need to consider disorganized pug zergs in this discussion, they still die to everything.

Necrotech_Master

ive always felt the siege to be a little on the weak side because:
A) siege dmg can be resisted/shielded and
B ) even before this update i always noticed most people would outheal siege dmg due to point A

it just sounds like the problem is getting worse and honestly siege dmg should probably be straight up oblivion at this point

Tiphis

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

ive always felt the siege to be a little on the weak side because:
A) siege dmg can be resisted/shielded and
B ) even before this update i always noticed most people would outheal siege dmg due to point A

it just sounds like the problem is getting worse and honestly siege dmg should probably be straight up oblivion at this point

The issue isn't so much that siege is weak rather group healing is op right now. If you are solo with no healers on a ram it still hurts. Now as it can be blocked it allows more block based builds to almost ignore it so long as they have the stam to block it all. But totems and fear traps and other unblockable ccs help alot against those.

The balance issue is how to increase siege damage on groups with healers while not making it absolutely destroy new players. Which would be not to touch siege but rather the healing.

I always thought they should have heals scale with amount of people effected, almost like reverse proxy det. Make radiating regen lose X% of overall healing when affecting more than 2 people. Could also throw in other aoe heals too. Make it tied to pvp only so that it doesn't effect pve. It wouldn't effect solos/small scale players much. Could also just make heals not stackable, wouldn't really effect solo/small scale players much if at all again.

DrSlaughtr

Not that long ago we had 3 lancers and a meat bag all hitting a shielded ram and the group just stood there like it was nothing. Unless they deal with hot stacking there's nothing that can be done. The last time they buffed siege damage there was considerable backlash.

xylena_lazarow

Tiphis wrote: »

I always thought they should have heals scale with amount of people effected, almost like reverse proxy det. Make radiating regen lose X% of overall healing...

This is how they designed the new set Rallying Cry and how they reworked Pale Order. A promising idea. Another would be for HoTs that travel with the player to be restricted to self-heals only. Group HoT stacking was not nearly as much of a problem when the primary PvP raid healing ability was the stationary Healing Springs.

TechMaybeHic

When plague break became a thing, I felt like the replacement to purges we're to heal through it. Grant it; you still didn't want to just stand there and keep eating it.

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

When plague break became a thing, I felt like the replacement to purges we're to heal through it. Grant it; you still didn't want to just stand there and keep eating it.

In theory the combination of threatening siege and Plaguebreak would force stacked groups to spread out so they could purge the siege without nuking themselves, creating an opening for the enemy to pick them off before they regroup. This of course does not happen when groups can brute force heal through siege.

There are mechanics in PvE that force groups to spread out, or to perform special actions against damage sources that cannot be healed through. These balancing factors no longer exist in PvP, which has become a degenerate game mode.

Necrotech_Master

if its purely cross healing they could just add to battle spirit a condition that reduces healing received from other players by X%

the bolded part wouldnt nerf self healing, just cross healing

if the arbitrary value was say 50%, then that mean cross healing would be 1/4 of the value, but self healing is still only 1/2 normal value (as there is already a battle spirit penalty to outgoing healing)

this could then also be adjusted like the current values on battle spirit are

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

When plague break became a thing, I felt like the replacement to purges we're to heal through it. Grant it; you still didn't want to just stand there and keep eating it.

In theory the combination of threatening siege and Plaguebreak would force stacked groups to spread out so they could purge the siege without nuking themselves, creating an opening for the enemy to pick them off before they regroup. This of course does not happen when groups can brute force heal through siege.

There are mechanics in PvE that force groups to spread out, or to perform special actions against damage sources that cannot be healed through. These balancing factors no longer exist in PvP, which has become a degenerate game mode.

The problem with relying on plague break to force players to spread out and then purge, is this games amazing performance where someone's things will not go off on the bar you are pressing a button, then go off when you are on the other bar at the same position, and that could be purge so it's generally best not slotted.

I agree in principle of not being able to just heal through, but the practical does not matchup

xFocused

This something that I've also noticed quite a bit lately. I'm hitting large groups with coldfire and pulling big numbers but they seem to survive it with ease, lol. Siege should be doing at least significant damage, I'm not expecting a huge number of kills but the damage definitely feels way too weak imo

Tiphis

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

When plague break became a thing, I felt like the replacement to purges we're to heal through it. Grant it; you still didn't want to just stand there and keep eating it.

In theory the combination of threatening siege and Plaguebreak would force stacked groups to spread out so they could purge the siege without nuking themselves, creating an opening for the enemy to pick them off before they regroup. This of course does not happen when groups can brute force heal through siege.

There are mechanics in PvE that force groups to spread out, or to perform special actions against damage sources that cannot be healed through. These balancing factors no longer exist in PvP, which has become a degenerate game mode.

The problem with relying on plague break to force players to spread out and then purge, is this games amazing performance where someone's things will not go off on the bar you are pressing a button, then go off when you are on the other bar at the same position, and that could be purge so it's generally best not slotted.

I agree in principle of not being able to just heal through, but the practical does not matchup

That's the point, purge isn't even necessary with the amount of healing going out. Imagine if they end up nerfing plaguebreak like some of the other posts are asking for, imagine the healing now but with purge back, at that point siege drops from nuisance to nothing. Probably wouldn't even be worth getting siege out.

DrSlaughtr

You can plaguebreak every person on that ram, but if you can't kill them with oils/bags/lancers, then it doesn't matter. They heal through it.

VaranisArano

Ball groups purge through siege fire.
Plaguebreak punishes purges.
Instead of purging, ball groups move to outhealing siege fire.

Update 33, and ZOS buffs cross-heals.
Ball group crossheals get stronger.
Ball groups outheal siege better than ever.

I mean, it's not hard to see how ZOS got us to this point. There were even ball group players warning them about it before the update. Did they listen? No

(For those of you suggesting that siege get buffed, I see you don't remember what happened during the Summerset siege buffs: everyone who wasn't in a ball group got melted. Those buffs got reverted for a reason.)

maxjapank

A bit unrelated, but I would also get rid of snowtreaders and immovable poisons. Leave the 15 sec immovable pots. Groups can still outheal dmg, but snares being more effective in keeping them within siege would be helpful.

Anyron

Its been problem for years now.. And all they need to do is stop stacking dot heals such as rapid healing. Just one cast per player, when casted by another player it should just refresh duration

xylena_lazarow

maxjapank wrote: »

A bit unrelated, but I would also get rid of snowtreaders and immovable poisons. Leave the 15 sec immovable pots. Groups can still outheal dmg, but snares being more effective in keeping them within siege would be helpful.

This would be an acceptable first step. Their healing would seem less oppressive if you could actually stick them in harmful AoE for more than a quarter second, or use CC to break up a moving stack.

Necrotech_Master

VaranisArano wrote: »

(For those of you suggesting that siege get buffed, I see you don't remember what happened during the Summerset siege buffs: everyone who wasn't in a ball group got melted. Those buffs got reverted for a reason.)

i dont remember this but i also dont pvp heavily except for maybe a couple weeks a year lol

siege should be dangerous, and right now it does not feel like it unless the player is already weak if you need coldfire to do anything remotely damaging

if they made current siege oblivion dmg and maybe slightly reduced the dmg to account for that, it might still be effective

if they leave siege as it is, then it needs a minimum of 10-20% dmg buff (doesnt need to be like outright doubled or anything crazy)

but the vast majority of times ive used siege, it rarely feels effective, it either requires the target to already be weakened (damaged from something else), or just weak in general (so the fire dot from a coldfire will actually have a chance of killing them)

non-cold(fire or stone) siege outside of maybe the meatbags are effectively useless, they all focus too heavy on high single dmg hits, but the fire rate is so slow 1 siege by itself is useless which is why the fire and meatbags are marginally more useful

NordSwordnBoard

Solo, at a keep using one oil and a lancer I can wipe an unaware ram crew with one or two volleys.

Large battle, same positional situation with more oils, more anti personnel siege, but more enemy healing and the lancer is far less effective. Lag makes the lancer too slow in firing and they become less effective than single shot coldfire.
I assume lancers came about to punish stacked players, not for me to get a nice def tick.

If they refuse to adjust cross healing which I think is the root problem, I'd be OK with siege melting people again. I remember the backlash from previous siege buffs, so maybe somewhere in the middle? Buff Coldfires and Lancers to be more valuable and rare siege that people fear losing unlike disposable meatbags and oils.

What's worse? Failing to capture a keep due to counter siege overwhelming you - or failing to stop a siege because groups move with impunity through red circles and supposed "kill boxes"?

Tiphis

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Solo, at a keep using one oil and a lancer I can wipe an unaware ram crew with one or two volleys.

Large battle, same positional situation with more oils, more anti personnel siege, but more enemy healing and the lancer is far less effective. Lag makes the lancer too slow in firing and they become less effective than single shot coldfire.
I assume lancers came about to punish stacked players, not for me to get a nice def tick.

If they refuse to adjust cross healing which I think is the root problem, I'd be OK with siege melting people again. I remember the backlash from previous siege buffs, so maybe somewhere in the middle? Buff Coldfires and Lancers to be more valuable and rare siege that people fear losing unlike disposable meatbags and oils.

What's worse? Failing to capture a keep due to counter siege overwhelming you - or failing to stop a siege because groups move with impunity through red circles and supposed "kill boxes"?

Sure siege is still effective against new players and people on very squishy builds, that was never in question.

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Solo, at a keep using one oil and a lancer I can wipe an unaware ram crew with one or two volleys.

Large battle, same positional situation with more oils, more anti personnel siege, but more enemy healing and the lancer is far less effective. Lag makes the lancer too slow in firing and they become less effective than single shot coldfire.
I assume lancers came about to punish stacked players, not for me to get a nice def tick.

If they refuse to adjust cross healing which I think is the root problem, I'd be OK with siege melting people again. I remember the backlash from previous siege buffs, so maybe somewhere in the middle? Buff Coldfires and Lancers to be more valuable and rare siege that people fear losing unlike disposable meatbags and oils.

What's worse? Failing to capture a keep due to counter siege overwhelming you - or failing to stop a siege because groups move with impunity through red circles and supposed "kill boxes"?

The difference is that siege even for solos is able to be countered, even if it means ranging down the keep. Ball groups can easily outheal it. As it stands good siege defense will hold breaches, not ball groups. That requires decent luck along with preparation. Some members of ball groups feel that 12v60 is a fair fight. As it stands pop cap is 80, which means that it's pretty much 12v faction... If that isn't OP idk what is.

NeeScrolls

Tiphis wrote: »

Some members of ball groups feel that 12v60 is a fair fight. As it stands pop cap is 80, which means that it's pretty much 12v faction... If that isn't OP idk what is.

Hold up ... So the player cap for each Campaign is 80 TOTAL?! i always thought it was 80 per faction lol sheesh no wonder the entire map always goes yellow once AD zerg-horde decides to login all at once everyday during "primetime" .

So basically, it could be: 60 AD vs. 10 DC vs. 10 EP ....and that's it? (DC nor EP could never increase their numbers, unless/until AD players logged out first? ) ***NEVERMIND, i mis-understood @Tiphis post and found this thread about the 'cap' : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6928791#Comment_6928791
.

Vaoh

Sounds fine.... were you hoping siege would oneshot everyone? What’s your solution lol.

Siege would be insanely overtuned if the full healing output of an organized group could not outheal it.

DrSlaughtr

NeeScrolls wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

Some members of ball groups feel that 12v60 is a fair fight. As it stands pop cap is 80, which means that it's pretty much 12v faction... If that isn't OP idk what is.

Hold up ... So the player cap for each Campaign is 80 TOTAL?! i always thought it was 80 per faction lol sheesh no wonder the entire map always goes yellow once AD zerg-horde decides to login all at once everyday during "primetime" .

So basically, it could be: 60 AD vs. 10 DC vs. 10 EP ....and that's it? (DC nor EP could never increase their numbers, unless/until AD players logged out first? ) ***NEVERMIND, i mis-understood @Tiphis post and found this thread about the 'cap' : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6928791#Comment_6928791
.

It's not 80 total. Whatever it is (differing opinions on the number) it is per faction.

NordSwordnBoard

NeeScrolls wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

Some members of ball groups feel that 12v60 is a fair fight. As it stands pop cap is 80, which means that it's pretty much 12v faction... If that isn't OP idk what is.

Hold up ... So the player cap for each Campaign is 80 TOTAL?! i always thought it was 80 per faction lol sheesh no wonder the entire map always goes yellow once AD zerg-horde decides to login all at once everyday during "primetime" .

So basically, it could be: 60 AD vs. 10 DC vs. 10 EP ....and that's it? (DC nor EP could never increase their numbers, unless/until AD players logged out first? ) ***NEVERMIND, i mis-understood @Tiphis post and found this thread about the 'cap' : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6928791#Comment_6928791
.

https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/6533/~/how-will-the-player-population-be-limited?

Officially, Campaign Pop Cap is ~1800 per the ESO website - Updated 2/22/2022.

That's ~600 players each, although it feels more like 150 each.

TechMaybeHic

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

NeeScrolls wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

Some members of ball groups feel that 12v60 is a fair fight. As it stands pop cap is 80, which means that it's pretty much 12v faction... If that isn't OP idk what is.

Hold up ... So the player cap for each Campaign is 80 TOTAL?! i always thought it was 80 per faction lol sheesh no wonder the entire map always goes yellow once AD zerg-horde decides to login all at once everyday during "primetime" .

So basically, it could be: 60 AD vs. 10 DC vs. 10 EP ....and that's it? (DC nor EP could never increase their numbers, unless/until AD players logged out first? ) ***NEVERMIND, i mis-understood @Tiphis post and found this thread about the 'cap' : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6928791#Comment_6928791
.

https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/6533/~/how-will-the-player-population-be-limited?

Officially, Campaign Pop Cap is ~1800 per the ESO website - Updated 2/22/2022.

That's ~600 players each, although it feels more like 150 each.

Aint no way in heck it's more than 100 per

Tranquilizer

Anyron wrote: »

Its been problem for years now.. And all they need to do is stop stacking dot heals such as rapid healing. Just one cast per player, when casted by another player it should just refresh duration

This is right. Make HOTs somewhat stronger (through Battle Spirit to not spoil PvE), but don't let them stack anymore. Once they stop stacking of HOTs they can start balancing the rest around it.

Also, hybridisation adds to the problem, now in an organized group everyone and their mother is using Radiating Regen and Echoing Vigor altogether.

DrSlaughtr

Tranquilizer wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

Its been problem for years now.. And all they need to do is stop stacking dot heals such as rapid healing. Just one cast per player, when casted by another player it should just refresh duration

This is right. Make HOTs somewhat stronger (through Battle Spirit to not spoil PvE), but don't let them stack anymore. Once they stop stacking of HOTs they can start balancing the rest around it.

Also, hybridisation adds to the problem, now in an organized group everyone and their mother is using Radiating Regen and Echoing Vigor altogether.

That's only one part of the issue. Self heals are overpowered as well. Getting rid of double hots won't stop players for stacking class heals with bursts.

gariondavey

Should only be able to have 1 of each named hot on you at a time (rapid, radiating, echoing).
I've been saying this for years

xylena_lazarow

TheEndBringer wrote: »

That's only one part of the issue. Self heals are overpowered as well. Getting rid of double hots won't stop players for stacking class heals with bursts.

It's really only a few specific abilities like Living Dark and Spirit Mender. You could maybe argue that bursts like Coag or BoL are too easy to spam. Neither problem would be fixed by blanket nerfs. They need to go after the outliers first.

NotTaylorSwift

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Groups just standing in red circles trivially out-healing every siege in the game except Meatbags, which they easily move out of. They often don't even need Siege Shield. Is this how siege battles are intended to play out? And no, we don't need to consider disorganized pug zergs in this discussion, they still die to everything.

I mean, to say they dont need siege shield is just not true. In raids the majority of our group wipes come from huge amounts of sieges, specifically oils, since we can't purge anymore due to plaguebreak. Siege shield is a must. Only thing keeping us alive is hot stacking, optimized cps and builds, and movement. Idk where you see groups trivially out healing 5 or 6 oils but it doesn't happen.
(ballgroup)

VaranisArano

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Groups just standing in red circles trivially out-healing every siege in the game except Meatbags, which they easily move out of. They often don't even need Siege Shield. Is this how siege battles are intended to play out? And no, we don't need to consider disorganized pug zergs in this discussion, they still die to everything.

I mean, to say they dont need siege shield is just not true. In raids the majority of our group wipes come from huge amounts of sieges, specifically oils, since we can't purge anymore due to plaguebreak. Siege shield is a must. Only thing keeping us alive is hot stacking, optimized cps and builds, and movement. Idk where you see groups trivially out healing 5 or 6 oils but it doesn't happen.
(ballgroup)

My experience is that when I'm the one pouring oil on an organized group, I'm griping, "It's like they aren't even taking any damage!"

When I'm the group healer having boiling oil poured on my head, I'm healing up a storm while low-key panicking every time our Crown's health bar takes a big dip.

Which is to say that good groups make it look easy from the outside.

Breakwell

Nerf siege