No ability to choose Deathmatch Sucks

newtinmpls

I stopped playing BG when it was DM only, and love the actual objective type games. I would have loved to see this sort of thing in Cyrodiil (guard a caravan, obtain more than just a scroll), but it was never implemented.

The only annoying thing is the occasional "I wanna play DM regardless" who usually waste time harassing people trying to actually play the objective.

Please - give them their own queue - or give big enough houses an option to do "duels" that are say 3v3v3 or something.

Amottica

The only way DM should be a choice is if it did not draw from those who choose to queue for a random type of DM. It would seem that the population is not large enough to support such a limited queue for DM so it makes sense it is not a choice anymore.

Hescrow

I think it was an intern at ZOS who removed this ability to chose deathmatch in bg...😂😅

gariondavey

Amottica wrote: »

The only way DM should be a choice is if it did not draw from those who choose to queue for a random type of DM. It would seem that the population is not large enough to support such a limited queue for DM so it makes sense it is not a choice anymore.

I know 400+ players on pc na who prefer dms

Hescrow

@ZOS_GinaBruno

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/586410/upcoming-changes-to-battleground-queues/p1

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Starting with the launch of Update 32 (November 1 for PC/Mac/Stadia and November 16 for consoles), we’ll be giving you more choices to decide which game mode to queue into depending on if you are playing solo or with a group. These will include:

• Solo Deathmatch
• Solo Random Battleground
• Group Deathmatch
• Group Random Battleground

One thing to keep in mind is the random queue will include all game modes (Flag Games, Land Grabs, and Deathmatch) so the likelihood of getting Deathmatch is going to be higher for those queueing into that game mode, specifically.

Why removed solo dm and other choices in update 33 you have done from update 32 ??

Necrotech_Master

Hescrow wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/586410/upcoming-changes-to-battleground-queues/p1

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Starting with the launch of Update 32 (November 1 for PC/Mac/Stadia and November 16 for consoles), we’ll be giving you more choices to decide which game mode to queue into depending on if you are playing solo or with a group. These will include:

• Solo Deathmatch
• Solo Random Battleground
• Group Deathmatch
• Group Random Battleground

One thing to keep in mind is the random queue will include all game modes (Flag Games, Land Grabs, and Deathmatch) so the likelihood of getting Deathmatch is going to be higher for those queueing into that game mode, specifically.

Why removed solo dm and other choices in update 33 you have done from update 32 ??

because they refused to "split" the 2 queues and every other thread was about how it was impossible to get into a non-DM from the random queue, so they figured it was better to just stick to a single random queue lol

thats my guess, was it the right call? probably not and would have been better idea to just keep the 2 queues and actually split them so random and DM-only did not pull from each other

renne

I mean, to be fair before the DM queue it was impossible TO get a DM, it was all objective games all the way down and the objective players complained about other players turning their objective game into a DM which they were doing because you could never get a DM. My group tried for a week before the DM queue and we didn't get a single one.

Of course, then they made it a DM only queue at the same time they released some incredibly broken sets (hello original DC) that would have made EVERY mode unpleasant in that state, and all the objective players were very smug about how low pop on the DM only queues meant clearly people didn't want DMs, ignoring that there were major influencing factors as to why people didn't want to play BGs in that state.

They literally just need to make the odds of getting each different mode much more even, because all capture the relic and no deathmatch make Homer something something.

Aldoss

@renne 100%

I'd actually be fine with the queue as it is if DM were correctly weighted at 50%. So far since Saturday, I've been in 2-3 DMs out of ~5-8 BGs per day. On Monday, my wife and I queued for 7 straight and only got domination 3 times in a row with the other 4 being a combo of relic or crazy king.

Weighting DM is honestly the least they could to because there's still so much wrong with their nonsense objective modes that make absolutely hate them.

bachpain

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

Agree 100%

I fell in love with BGs during the midyear mayhem and then as soon as u33 hit I was met with tanks on flags where no one dies instead of PVP.

Stopped playing.

I actually find it's the opposite. DM can often be a big slog of a match. Between the off healing and ridiculous self heals matches often reach the max time limit with a stalemate and low kill scores. Plus players don't want to engage until they find a weak link, or someone cracks. Get a team with an actual healer and it's game over. At least with a tanky player in Objective modes you can just ignore them and move on.

The most irritating thing for me is the constant chasing of things in the Objective modes. I didn't queue for a race. The maps and modes definitely need a redesign. I agree though, DM and Objective queues need to be truly separate at some point.

I can see that. But my experiences were pre u33 when the over healing wasn't too crazy and could have some decent matches. Now I can totally see DM games almost being a stalemate without the objectives. But off topic, I have barely been able to play since u33 because the PC-NA server can't stay stable.

SkaraMinoc

The worst experience is when you finally get a solid 4v4 and then 2 teammates run off towards some objective.

Amottica

gariondavey wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The only way DM should be a choice is if it did not draw from those who choose to queue for a random type of DM. It would seem that the population is not large enough to support such a limited queue for DM so it makes sense it is not a choice anymore.

I know 400+ players on pc na who prefer dms

Great to hear but Zenimax has the true numbers of what interest there really is.

In fact, they stated that with the DM only queue that the BG population dropped to unhealthy levels. It was in their explanation for why they abandoned it. The only thing that kept the DM queue going when it was an option is those queuing for random BGs were pulled into the DM matches which was a major and very much justified source of complaint since a small population of DM interest

Heck, I am all for a DM-only queue as long as it only draws from those who specifically queue for DM only. Being that only a small number of people have posted in this half-month-old thread it would seem there is not enough interest to support such a queue.

newtinmpls

If guild sized houses allowed XvX matches, then there would be no need for any deathmatches in BG

Amottica

newtinmpls wrote: »

If guild sized houses allowed XvX matches, then there would be no need for any deathmatches in BG

Does the PvP house not allow such a match?

Aldoss

Amottica wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The only way DM should be a choice is if it did not draw from those who choose to queue for a random type of DM. It would seem that the population is not large enough to support such a limited queue for DM so it makes sense it is not a choice anymore.

I know 400+ players on pc na who prefer dms

Great to hear but Zenimax has the true numbers of what interest there really is.

In fact, they stated that with the DM only queue that the BG population dropped to unhealthy levels. It was in their explanation for why they abandoned it. The only thing that kept the DM queue going when it was an option is those queuing for random BGs were pulled into the DM matches which was a major and very much justified source of complaint since a small population of DM interest

Heck, I am all for a DM-only queue as long as it only draws from those who specifically queue for DM only. Being that only a small number of people have posted in this half-month-old thread it would seem there is not enough interest to support such a queue.

You know full well that the BG population drop was not caused by the DM only experiment. We all were around to experience the OG dark convergence and hrothgar meta. It was absolutely the dumbest move by ZOS, especially considering they did all this right as New World, the most hyped mmo since wow, was officially released.

While I agree that the obvious solution was to try separating the queues, separate queues won't necessarily solve anything for objective lovers either. There will always be players that have a desire to troll and farm players who overwhelmingly prove to be ill prepared or outright against combat in this game. Low level bgs are littered with twinks who specifically and purposefully do this for no other reason than because it's fun to 1-shot people and get score boards showing 50-1.

gariondavey

Amottica wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The only way DM should be a choice is if it did not draw from those who choose to queue for a random type of DM. It would seem that the population is not large enough to support such a limited queue for DM so it makes sense it is not a choice anymore.

I know 400+ players on pc na who prefer dms

Great to hear but Zenimax has the true numbers of what interest there really is.

In fact, they stated that with the DM only queue that the BG population dropped to unhealthy levels. It was in their explanation for why they abandoned it. The only thing that kept the DM queue going when it was an option is those queuing for random BGs were pulled into the DM matches which was a major and very much justified source of complaint since a small population of DM interest

Heck, I am all for a DM-only queue as long as it only draws from those who specifically queue for DM only. Being that only a small number of people have posted in this half-month-old thread it would seem there is not enough interest to support such a queue.

Aldoss's comment covers most of what I would say.
Other than that, many don't have access to the forums who would otherwise be posting.
You are just plain wrong regarding the interest levels. You can't just tell me that the hundreds of players I've been in dm only bg guilds with, that they don't exist.

If they didn't let dm pull from objectives but separated the queues, you would see exactly the same thing that occurred when you could queue for specific modes (as solo or a group, which solo vs group queuers became the problem), which was that there was many times more players in the dm leaderboard and the scores were much higher than the land grab/relic games.
This is fact. This is undeniable. There is documented proof of this.

If zos had just removed dm from their random queue, what would be occurring now would be 2 types of people complaining on here.
1st - that there are ways of becoming immune to interrupts so no counterpart for ctr, that you can position exploit with the chaosball, and that there aren't as many players in objectives as people hoped. And also objective players who would begin to see the light about poorly designed objective modes.
2nd - complaints about class imbalance and cross healing in deathmatch.

I really wish zos had gone with that decision instead. Pretty much everyone would be fairly happy, with the exception of the forecasted complaints above.

Necrotech_Master

Amottica wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

If guild sized houses allowed XvX matches, then there would be no need for any deathmatches in BG

Does the PvP house not allow such a match?

the elinhir private arena functions the same as a normal house, it just has functional traps inside of the arena, but still basically limited to duels, and you dont have to spend a lot of furnishing slots to make it into a "proper" arena since it already is one

Aldoss

Also, just going to share that at the start of DM only, group queue bgs were popping every 3 minutes. The battles lasted 10+ minutes. Once OG convergence and hrothgar hit critical mass, bgs became absolutely volatile. Players that loved the DM only format like my wife and I stopped queuing completely until it was fixed, which was weeks later.

From the moment U33 dropped, bg queue times have hovered around 10min and battles sometimes only last 2 minutes depending on who you get in them. That's not including the nonsense ZOS has been pulling by constantly breaking the dungeon and bg finder.

It would appear to me that most people that like this current true random format of bgs only like it because it's easier for them to get what they want: the "free" daily xp and rewards that come in the mail corresponding to a win, all without having to invest anything in a build that performs well in PvP or learn anything about PvP combat. Once they win, they're done. They move on and queue time suffers.

The experience is so bad that players that like bg combat get frustrated by the low return on queue time investment that they just stop altogether, further ruining queue time.

This system doesn't benefit anyone. It's actively destroying the bg environment and I'm really unsure what ZOS's end game is here...

Necrotech_Master

gariondavey wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The only way DM should be a choice is if it did not draw from those who choose to queue for a random type of DM. It would seem that the population is not large enough to support such a limited queue for DM so it makes sense it is not a choice anymore.

I know 400+ players on pc na who prefer dms

Great to hear but Zenimax has the true numbers of what interest there really is.

In fact, they stated that with the DM only queue that the BG population dropped to unhealthy levels. It was in their explanation for why they abandoned it. The only thing that kept the DM queue going when it was an option is those queuing for random BGs were pulled into the DM matches which was a major and very much justified source of complaint since a small population of DM interest

Heck, I am all for a DM-only queue as long as it only draws from those who specifically queue for DM only. Being that only a small number of people have posted in this half-month-old thread it would seem there is not enough interest to support such a queue.

Aldoss's comment covers most of what I would say.
Other than that, many don't have access to the forums who would otherwise be posting.
You are just plain wrong regarding the interest levels. You can't just tell me that the hundreds of players I've been in dm only bg guilds with, that they don't exist.

If they didn't let dm pull from objectives but separated the queues, you would see exactly the same thing that occurred when you could queue for specific modes (as solo or a group, which solo vs group queuers became the problem), which was that there was many times more players in the dm leaderboard and the scores were much higher than the land grab/relic games.
This is fact. This is undeniable. There is documented proof of this.

If zos had just removed dm from their random queue, what would be occurring now would be 2 types of people complaining on here.
1st - that there are ways of becoming immune to interrupts so no counterpart for ctr, that you can position exploit with the chaosball, and that there aren't as many players in objectives as people hoped. And also objective players who would begin to see the light about poorly designed objective modes.
2nd - complaints about class imbalance and cross healing in deathmatch.

I really wish zos had gone with that decision instead. Pretty much everyone would be fairly happy, with the exception of the forecasted complaints above.

from personal experience i already have seen both of those complained about, but i dont think using immovable pots in relic match or geometry exploits in chaosball mean that the mode is poorly designed

from my personal experience a huge problem with a lot of the modes was just the maps themselves, for example i absolutely hate the one map that requires you to take a portal to get to the actual arena (in general for any mode), but i find it particularly annoying for deathmatch or relic because the portal spawn locations just get spawn camped half the time

PhoenixGrey

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My interest in Battlegrounds has dropped off considerably now that Deathmatch queue is gone.

I still play BGs, but my enjoyment is significantly less.

DM is by far the most enjoyable mode for the majority of PVP players who I've talked to.

across all mmorpg the vast majority play objective based PVP, and the population of ESO will be no different, unless something is rotten at the core which is skewing this (gear/playstyle etc etc). The players i know like objective based PVP and are bored senseless of DM, but that's no surprise, you play with like minded people. That aside its not DM versus objective PVP as some people want to pitch it, ESO should support both, and if it has a low pop then that's with 1 shared queue while they work out why they have alienated the vast casual player base from PVP.

Why are casual players avoiding PVP so badly? Well for me animation cancelling and light attack spam is a HUGE factor. Many casual players wont spam animation cancel (either don't know about it or cant be bothered with unpleasant spamming gameplay), and that means they are dead ducks in PVP simply put.

And so we come back to the crux of the matter:
Poorly designed objective modes

I think its much deeper than that, the objective modes work in other games perfectly well but are often in normalised environments where gear and power levels are balanced. As I suggest animation cancelling is also an issue over and above this in ESO, and can give you a 10-15% edge. that's a game breaker forcing a poor spammy gamestyle that will put MANY players off. Put it this way, a new player joins, and has the following disadvantages:

Skill (expected)
Gear (die in seconds with large gear differential)
Must Animation cancel (do it or lose)
Dealing with input lag (ESO)

That's a recipe for dead BGs, as you need to handle all 4 above to compete. Now compare it to a normalised fight in a good game:

Skill (the only factor)

Other MMO's like wow or even new world feel super dated and combat system feels like ***.

Another drawback in those games is you need to be carried by your group and are probably quite useless without it. Feels pretty mechanical and outcomes are quite predictable which defeats the purpose of a video game.

ESO has a ton of problems but even its 2016 version was light years ahead of any today mmo in terms of combat system.

Jpk0012

THey knew we wanted Death Match, so they added it. THen they removed it, because we played it? Genius. Sheer genius.

Giraffon

Please put deathmatch only queue option back in. But NOT NOT NOT the default. For those that really want to DM everything, they will find it. It's enraging to have someone on your team cause you to lose an objective match because all they want to do is brawl. There is a time and a place for that depending on the match objectives.

newtinmpls

gariondavey wrote: »

I know 400+ players on pc na who prefer dms

Hundreds of people is not a high enough number to be meaningful for a multi-sever, multi country MMO.

And I would bet anyone who has a long standing preference for a particular gaming style and is in multiple active guilds could probably come up with "hundreds of people" who like or dislike whatever they like or dislike.

_adhyffbjjjf12

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My interest in Battlegrounds has dropped off considerably now that Deathmatch queue is gone.

I still play BGs, but my enjoyment is significantly less.

DM is by far the most enjoyable mode for the majority of PVP players who I've talked to.

across all mmorpg the vast majority play objective based PVP, and the population of ESO will be no different, unless something is rotten at the core which is skewing this (gear/playstyle etc etc). The players i know like objective based PVP and are bored senseless of DM, but that's no surprise, you play with like minded people. That aside its not DM versus objective PVP as some people want to pitch it, ESO should support both, and if it has a low pop then that's with 1 shared queue while they work out why they have alienated the vast casual player base from PVP.

Why are casual players avoiding PVP so badly? Well for me animation cancelling and light attack spam is a HUGE factor. Many casual players wont spam animation cancel (either don't know about it or cant be bothered with unpleasant spamming gameplay), and that means they are dead ducks in PVP simply put.

And so we come back to the crux of the matter:
Poorly designed objective modes

I think its much deeper than that, the objective modes work in other games perfectly well but are often in normalised environments where gear and power levels are balanced. As I suggest animation cancelling is also an issue over and above this in ESO, and can give you a 10-15% edge. that's a game breaker forcing a poor spammy gamestyle that will put MANY players off. Put it this way, a new player joins, and has the following disadvantages:

Skill (expected)
Gear (die in seconds with large gear differential)
Must Animation cancel (do it or lose)
Dealing with input lag (ESO)

That's a recipe for dead BGs, as you need to handle all 4 above to compete. Now compare it to a normalised fight in a good game:

Skill (the only factor)

Other MMO's like wow or even new world feel super dated and combat system feels like ***.

Another drawback in those games is you need to be carried by your group and are probably quite useless without it. Feels pretty mechanical and outcomes are quite predictable which defeats the purpose of a video game.

ESO has a ton of problems but even its 2016 version was light years ahead of any today mmo in terms of combat system.

wow pvp is smooth and responsive, its only issue is that its all about the gear power, which runs out of control and ruins the whole game, it destroys ESO in terms of gameplay if you take power out of the equation. However I was thinking GW2 which is a direct competitor to ESO, in that game:

- You can enter PVP and be instantly put to max level , everything is normalized in effect and the game is new player friendly and gear is irrelevant (all have access to a specially curated set of standard builds to pick from, so no DC appearing for example and ruining gameplay) you do not have Uber tanks or 1 shot builds, or power healers.
- Skills have a PVP and non PVP flavor which allows the devs to tweak balance . In general all classes are balanced at all times.
- In terms of queues, Objective PVP is by far the number 1 activity with both a ranked and non ranked queues that pops in seconds.
- GW handles map selection by doing a random selection and weights it based on player preference that they select before the dice is rolled to select a map, so it's fair.
- DM is actually not very popular and you rarely get it and no-one complains.
- There is a very good reward system in place that encourages repeat play (not just a daily and go)
- Spamming/animation cancelling is not a factor, so a spammer does not haver a huge advantage over someone who doesnt.
- Fights are pretty wild and mostly consist of battles on points and smart rotation. You can tell fights are healthy as you often get close run fights and large point swings mid fight, indicating tactical changes can be a factor.
- no input lag.
- As others have mentioned, its only 2 teams per map, apart from WVW (and maybe that's a big factor)

Thats a lot of factors that have issues in ESO, and all cumulate to why ESO has low population and not new player friendly.

WordsOfPower

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

l
You can enter PVP and be instantly put to max level , everything is normalized in effect and the game is new player friendly and gear is irrelevant (all have access to a specially curated set of standard builds to pick from, so no DC appearing for example and ruining gameplay) you do not have Uber tanks or 1 shot builds, or power healers.

- In terms of queues, Objective PVP is by far the number 1 activity with both a ranked and non ranked queues that pops in seconds.

- DM is actually not very popular and you rarely get it and no-one complains.
- There is a very good reward system in place that encourages repeat play (not just a daily and go)
- Spamming/animation cancelling is not a factor, so a spammer does not haver a huge advantage over someone who doesnt.
- Fights are pretty wild and mostly consist of battles on points and smart rotation. You can tell fights are healthy as you often get close run fights and large point swings mid fight, indicating tactical changes can be a factor.

Translation : "Things I like are good. Things I don't like are bad"

Amottica

Aldoss wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The only way DM should be a choice is if it did not draw from those who choose to queue for a random type of DM. It would seem that the population is not large enough to support such a limited queue for DM so it makes sense it is not a choice anymore.

I know 400+ players on pc na who prefer dms

Great to hear but Zenimax has the true numbers of what interest there really is.

In fact, they stated that with the DM only queue that the BG population dropped to unhealthy levels. It was in their explanation for why they abandoned it. The only thing that kept the DM queue going when it was an option is those queuing for random BGs were pulled into the DM matches which was a major and very much justified source of complaint since a small population of DM interest

Heck, I am all for a DM-only queue as long as it only draws from those who specifically queue for DM only. Being that only a small number of people have posted in this half-month-old thread it would seem there is not enough interest to support such a queue.

You know full well that the BG population drop was not caused by the DM only experiment. We all were around to experience the OG dark convergence and hrothgar meta. It was absolutely the dumbest move by ZOS, especially considering they did all this right as New World, the most hyped mmo since wow, was officially released.

While I agree that the obvious solution was to try separating the queues, separate queues won't necessarily solve anything for objective lovers either. There will always be players that have a desire to troll and farm players who overwhelmingly prove to be ill prepared or outright against combat in this game. Low level bgs are littered with twinks who specifically and purposefully do this for no other reason than because it's fun to 1-shot people and get score boards showing 50-1.

The outspoken complaints of players getting tired of constantly being pulled into DM matches when Zenimax brought back the option to queue for a random DM. A great many people made it clear they do not want constant or near-constant DM matches for their randoms because it is boring to do that all the time.

This corroborated Zenimax's statement and I will go with that vs guesses. Those threads complaining about the near-constant DM pops were notably more active than this thread showing the interest in random BGs is much greater than a DM-only queue.

_adhyffbjjjf12

WordsOfPower wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

l
You can enter PVP and be instantly put to max level , everything is normalized in effect and the game is new player friendly and gear is irrelevant (all have access to a specially curated set of standard builds to pick from, so no DC appearing for example and ruining gameplay) you do not have Uber tanks or 1 shot builds, or power healers.

- In terms of queues, Objective PVP is by far the number 1 activity with both a ranked and non ranked queues that pops in seconds.

- DM is actually not very popular and you rarely get it and no-one complains.
- There is a very good reward system in place that encourages repeat play (not just a daily and go)
- Spamming/animation cancelling is not a factor, so a spammer does not haver a huge advantage over someone who doesnt.
- Fights are pretty wild and mostly consist of battles on points and smart rotation. You can tell fights are healthy as you often get close run fights and large point swings mid fight, indicating tactical changes can be a factor.

Translation : "Things I like are good. Things I don't like are bad"

Translation: well designed games get played, badly designed games flounder with no population. If you think all the above are bad objective measurements then good luck with the horror show you have in ESO BG just now, its pretty much the opposite so you should be delighted.

WoppaBoem

We need BG DM que again at least for solo's. BG's where much better with DM only

fakingfocused

Just my opinion, but I think time will show DM is king.
The replayablity of DM alone is one of the reasons why. Could play that mode over and over, all day.

The other modes are fun every here and there.

But do the people who favor these modes play them over and over or is it like once in a while? And then on to something else? I feel like the burnout rate is higher in the objective modes. Especially when adding in the factor of the DM'ers being frustrated and skewing the games purpose.

I'll miss queuing for solo DM only.

_adhyffbjjjf12

fakingfocused wrote: »

Just my opinion, but I think time will show DM is king.
The replayablity of DM alone is one of the reasons why. Could play that mode over and over, all day.

The other modes are fun every here and there.

But do the people who favor these modes play them over and over or is it like once in a while? And then on to something else? I feel like the burnout rate is higher in the objective modes. Especially when adding in the factor of the DM'ers being frustrated and skewing the games purpose.

I'll miss queuing for solo DM only.

'Especially when adding in the factor of the DM'ers being frustrated and skewing the games purpose. '

is why DM player in eso have a bad name and another reason why new players stay away. Your spoiling your own game for selfish reasons. DM is less popular in the genre - see any other AAA mmorpg. So instead of destroying the game for others, maybe try being a good player and more new players will come and then you will have a big enough player base to support a DM and non DM queue. With this attitude the game will continue to rot.

fakingfocused

To clarify when I load for objective matches I play for the objective even though I prefer DM.

I'm just speaking generally what I notice happens even despite trying to play the match correctly. It more times then not turns to half DM and the other half playing the objective. Which in turn creats more burnout for those type of matches.