No ability to choose Deathmatch Sucks

Decimus

Who over at Zenimax decided it was a good idea to remove the ability to choose Deathmatch as a game mode?


Not only have we not gotten no new BG maps or attempts to improve the BG experience since 2019, but now you've gone and removed the option to choose the only fun game mode.

Literally no PvPer asked for PvPers to be forced to play with flag huggers, but here we are. Well done. Multiple players I know have either stopped doing BGs or have moved on from ESO entirely due to this decision.

Trying to queue into BGs since the patch I've also noticed an increase in queue time. Could it be that more people were interested in Deathmatch than badly balanced objective modes?


Don't get me wrong, I'd love to play objective modes - I really would... but as long as the game is 3-way format in Battlegrounds they'll never be balanced and enjoyable. You fight for flags with one team, the third team will just capture empty flags avoiding all PvP. You fight for one team's Relic, the 3rd party will just capture yours meanwhile.

As someone who has been playing battlegrounds in multiple MMOs since Warsong Gulch & Arathi Basin... I can say this is a terrible experience and bottom of the barrel as far as MMOs go.


Zenimax should either revamp the battlegrounds entirely or (and this is a radical idea) just let us choose the only game mode where PvP matters (3rd partying still sucks, but less so than in objective modes).

Leave "flag games" as another queue option for the people that for some reason enjoy that... they'll have more fun playing against people who don't treat it as a deathmatch.

SkaraMinoc

My interest in Battlegrounds has dropped off considerably now that Deathmatch queue is gone.

mmtaniac

Objective games need to be slightly reworked ,this is probably only game where's people don't like objectives. I play in Overwatch or TF2 and Objectives there was good. There was two teams not three. They should at least try make mode with two team and test how this will work.

gariondavey

Decimus wrote: »

Who over at Zenimax decided it was a good idea to remove the ability to choose Deathmatch as a game mode?


Not only have we not gotten no new BG maps or attempts to improve the BG experience since 2019, but now you've gone and removed the option to choose the only fun game mode.

Literally no PvPer asked for PvPers to be forced to play with flag huggers, but here we are. Well done. Multiple players I know have either stopped doing BGs or have moved on from ESO entirely due to this decision.

Trying to queue into BGs since the patch I've also noticed an increase in queue time. Could it be that more people were interested in Deathmatch than badly balanced objective modes?


Don't get me wrong, I'd love to play objective modes - I really would... but as long as the game is 3-way format in Battlegrounds they'll never be balanced and enjoyable. You fight for flags with one team, the third team will just capture empty flags avoiding all PvP. You fight for one team's Relic, the 3rd party will just capture yours meanwhile.

As someone who has been playing battlegrounds in multiple MMOs since Warsong Gulch & Arathi Basin... I can say this is a terrible experience and bottom of the barrel as far as MMOs go.


Zenimax should either revamp the battlegrounds entirely or (and this is a radical idea) just let us choose the only game mode where PvP matters (3rd partying still sucks, but less so than in objective modes).

Leave "flag games" as another queue option for the people that for some reason enjoy that... they'll have more fun playing against people who don't treat it as a deathmatch.

Amen. So many of the players I know who have been playing for 3-6 years are on the verge of quitting over this or have already quit.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My interest in Battlegrounds has dropped off considerably now that Deathmatch queue is gone.

For anyone in the pcna bg community, this is an obvious indicator of how bad this situation is. Skara is a leaderboard player (often 1st by more than 2x points), a deep level theorycrafter, and someone you always want on your team.
Also, someone I really like!

I spoke with @ZOS_Kevin and he said he passed on the information about 2 teams/fewer objectives/separate queues on to the combat team.

the1andonlyskwex

I'm on console, and I can't wait for the return of objective modes. The DM-only era is/was a sad time for me.

M0ntie

Hooray! No more only DM "random" queue.

It is a shame that ZoS didn't make a DM and a non-DM random queue tho.

Necrotech_Master

M0ntie wrote: »

Hooray! No more only DM "random" queue.

It is a shame that ZoS didn't make a DM and a non-DM random queue tho.

i think they probably would have been fine just severing the connection between the DM only queue and the random queue

im honestly not sure how in their mind it made sense to allow the random queue to pull from the DM only queue to begin with since it takes basic math to figure out it would skew results of the random queue

MipMip

Agree that it's a pity that we can no longer choose Death Match, and objectives players could never chose an objectives-modes-only queue

And queue times have certainly not improved!

Very disappointed by this change

gariondavey

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

M0ntie wrote: »

Hooray! No more only DM "random" queue.

It is a shame that ZoS didn't make a DM and a non-DM random queue tho.

i think they probably would have been fine just severing the connection between the DM only queue and the random queue

im honestly not sure how in their mind it made sense to allow the random queue to pull from the DM only queue to begin with since it takes basic math to figure out it would skew results of the random queue

Yup. Or 10 minutes in objective queue and no pop = backfill into dm queue.

Necrotech_Master

gariondavey wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

M0ntie wrote: »

Hooray! No more only DM "random" queue.

It is a shame that ZoS didn't make a DM and a non-DM random queue tho.

i think they probably would have been fine just severing the connection between the DM only queue and the random queue

im honestly not sure how in their mind it made sense to allow the random queue to pull from the DM only queue to begin with since it takes basic math to figure out it would skew results of the random queue

Yup. Or 10 minutes in objective queue and no pop = backfill into dm queue.

technically they never actually did a test of having both a random queue and dm only queue that were completely separated, so we have no way of knowing if there would be problems filling the queue (excluding periods when the queue itself is broken)

i personally do not think the queues should be mixed, if the queues were going to be mixed then every game mode needs its own queue, not just DM

gariondavey

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

M0ntie wrote: »

Hooray! No more only DM "random" queue.

It is a shame that ZoS didn't make a DM and a non-DM random queue tho.

i think they probably would have been fine just severing the connection between the DM only queue and the random queue

im honestly not sure how in their mind it made sense to allow the random queue to pull from the DM only queue to begin with since it takes basic math to figure out it would skew results of the random queue

Yup. Or 10 minutes in objective queue and no pop = backfill into dm queue.

technically they never actually did a test of having both a random queue and dm only queue that were completely separated, so we have no way of knowing if there would be problems filling the queue (excluding periods when the queue itself is broken)

i personally do not think the queues should be mixed, if the queues were going to be mixed then every game mode needs its own queue, not just DM

They did never test that, for sure. It would have been smart to test it, for sure. They did not. Against all warnings.

Necrotech_Master

gariondavey wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

M0ntie wrote: »

Hooray! No more only DM "random" queue.

It is a shame that ZoS didn't make a DM and a non-DM random queue tho.

i think they probably would have been fine just severing the connection between the DM only queue and the random queue

im honestly not sure how in their mind it made sense to allow the random queue to pull from the DM only queue to begin with since it takes basic math to figure out it would skew results of the random queue

Yup. Or 10 minutes in objective queue and no pop = backfill into dm queue.

technically they never actually did a test of having both a random queue and dm only queue that were completely separated, so we have no way of knowing if there would be problems filling the queue (excluding periods when the queue itself is broken)

i personally do not think the queues should be mixed, if the queues were going to be mixed then every game mode needs its own queue, not just DM

They did never test that, for sure. It would have been smart to test it, for sure. They did not. Against all warnings.

it would have probably saved everyone 6-8 months of frustration if the very first test they did was leaving random queue as was, completely separate, and then adding another completely separate DM only queue lol

then we wouldnt have had the "only dm" queue for the first 1-2 months (being unable to work on objective achievements at all and crippling the BG population) and the "half baked solution" for the remainder of the time (still being unable to get objectives to work achievements due to skewed queue)

i completely understand that there are people who only like DM, and it would make sense to have that as like a separate "ranked" queue where the random would be your general free for all "unranked" mode, but the implementation seemed about as haphazard as the AWA implementation lol

wittor

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My interest in Battlegrounds has dropped off considerably now that Deathmatch queue is gone.

I feel the same, really liked the DM mode.
But I do understand that people want different modes, just wondering why they don't make two separate queues? I don't mind waiting a bit longer to get into a DM...

Jitis

I wrote a different post about the same topic and it got closed, so I'm pasting it here:

I love battlegrounds. I'm in 3 PvP battlegrounds-focused guilds. Almost all of us, if not all, are already missing the deathmatch queue. Please, bring it back. This change is severely and negatively impacting the game experience for a not-so-small portion of the players. Many of us are considering not doing battlegrounds anymore (just IC or Cyro) or even entirely quitting the game. Please, feel our sadness. For some of us this is like if you entirely removed houses for a housing player, or dungeons and trials for a PvE player.

I know some people see this change as something positive, but for some of us it means the removal of everything we enjoyed in this game. We definitely cannot play the way we want anymore. Can we have 2 queue options: one deathmatch only mode and one random non-deathmatch mode? I guess everybody would be satisfied this way.

Please do not understimate how harmful this change is.

TinyLittleTickles

In recent months I have almost exclusively spent my extensive time in game in battlegrounds. With the deathmatch queue gone, I have little drive to even log in, when I do I spend most time talking to people instead of actually playing. I just do not enjoy the object based matchs.
Please let us have separate queues for both modes, everyone can be happy. And if there aren't enough people to support the object based queue, maybe that means you do not have to force everyone to play that mod.

Lazarus_Rising

Deathmatch was the most fun for me and the ability to queue for it was very nice. I do not enjoy the rest that much. Pls bring the seperat queue back.

taugrim

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My interest in Battlegrounds has dropped off considerably now that Deathmatch queue is gone.

I still play BGs, but my enjoyment is significantly less.

DM is by far the most enjoyable mode for the majority of PVP players who I've talked to.

_adhyffbjjjf12

taugrim wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My interest in Battlegrounds has dropped off considerably now that Deathmatch queue is gone.

I still play BGs, but my enjoyment is significantly less.

DM is by far the most enjoyable mode for the majority of PVP players who I've talked to.

across all mmorpg the vast majority play objective based PVP, and the population of ESO will be no different, unless something is rotten at the core which is skewing this (gear/playstyle etc etc). The players i know like objective based PVP and are bored senseless of DM, but that's no surprise, you play with like minded people. That aside its not DM versus objective PVP as some people want to pitch it, ESO should support both, and if it has a low pop then that's with 1 shared queue while they work out why they have alienated the vast casual player base from PVP.

Why are casual players avoiding PVP so badly? Well for me animation cancelling and light attack spam is a HUGE factor. Many casual players wont spam animation cancel (either don't know about it or cant be bothered with unpleasant spamming gameplay), and that means they are dead ducks in PVP simply put.

gariondavey

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My interest in Battlegrounds has dropped off considerably now that Deathmatch queue is gone.

I still play BGs, but my enjoyment is significantly less.

DM is by far the most enjoyable mode for the majority of PVP players who I've talked to.

across all mmorpg the vast majority play objective based PVP, and the population of ESO will be no different, unless something is rotten at the core which is skewing this (gear/playstyle etc etc). The players i know like objective based PVP and are bored senseless of DM, but that's no surprise, you play with like minded people. That aside its not DM versus objective PVP as some people want to pitch it, ESO should support both, and if it has a low pop then that's with 1 shared queue while they work out why they have alienated the vast casual player base from PVP.

Why are casual players avoiding PVP so badly? Well for me animation cancelling and light attack spam is a HUGE factor. Many casual players wont spam animation cancel (either don't know about it or cant be bothered with unpleasant spamming gameplay), and that means they are dead ducks in PVP simply put.

And so we come back to the crux of the matter:
Poorly designed objective modes

_adhyffbjjjf12

gariondavey wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My interest in Battlegrounds has dropped off considerably now that Deathmatch queue is gone.

I still play BGs, but my enjoyment is significantly less.

DM is by far the most enjoyable mode for the majority of PVP players who I've talked to.

across all mmorpg the vast majority play objective based PVP, and the population of ESO will be no different, unless something is rotten at the core which is skewing this (gear/playstyle etc etc). The players i know like objective based PVP and are bored senseless of DM, but that's no surprise, you play with like minded people. That aside its not DM versus objective PVP as some people want to pitch it, ESO should support both, and if it has a low pop then that's with 1 shared queue while they work out why they have alienated the vast casual player base from PVP.

Why are casual players avoiding PVP so badly? Well for me animation cancelling and light attack spam is a HUGE factor. Many casual players wont spam animation cancel (either don't know about it or cant be bothered with unpleasant spamming gameplay), and that means they are dead ducks in PVP simply put.

And so we come back to the crux of the matter:
Poorly designed objective modes

I think its much deeper than that, the objective modes work in other games perfectly well but are often in normalised environments where gear and power levels are balanced. As I suggest animation cancelling is also an issue over and above this in ESO, and can give you a 10-15% edge. that's a game breaker forcing a poor spammy gamestyle that will put MANY players off. Put it this way, a new player joins, and has the following disadvantages:

Skill (expected)
Gear (die in seconds with large gear differential)
Must Animation cancel (do it or lose)
Dealing with input lag (ESO)

That's a recipe for dead BGs, as you need to handle all 4 above to compete. Now compare it to a normalised fight in a good game:

Skill (the only factor)

taugrim

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My interest in Battlegrounds has dropped off considerably now that Deathmatch queue is gone.

I still play BGs, but my enjoyment is significantly less.

DM is by far the most enjoyable mode for the majority of PVP players who I've talked to.

Why are casual players avoiding PVP so badly? Well for me animation cancelling and light attack spam is a HUGE factor. Many casual players wont spam animation cancel (either don't know about it or cant be bothered with unpleasant spamming gameplay), and that means they are dead ducks in PVP simply put.

Let's be honest: casuals get farmed in most BGs, regardless of mode. Because all modes involve fighting over objectives.

_adhyffbjjjf12

taugrim wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My interest in Battlegrounds has dropped off considerably now that Deathmatch queue is gone.

I still play BGs, but my enjoyment is significantly less.

DM is by far the most enjoyable mode for the majority of PVP players who I've talked to.

Why are casual players avoiding PVP so badly? Well for me animation cancelling and light attack spam is a HUGE factor. Many casual players wont spam animation cancel (either don't know about it or cant be bothered with unpleasant spamming gameplay), and that means they are dead ducks in PVP simply put.

Let's be honest: casuals get farmed in most BGs, regardless of mode. Because all modes involve fighting over objectives.

Yep, an exact side effect of my points, and that's an awful experience that is going to push new blood away.

davelbier

TBH, while I prefer DM only i do not really like BGs. I play them to get some PVP in, but performance can still be somehow disappointing, and whether or not its objective or DM they largely turn into spamfests. if its a DM you have the opportunity to split up a fight a little more, if its objective...meh.

i dont want to ruin gameplay for others so i dont drop out of my BG, but chaosball and relic can pound sand. i dont know the last time i landed in a domination. crazy king is ok since it keeps you moving around and spreads the fighting out.

dookieboi

Objective Battlegrounds in ESO is some of the worse PvP in a MMO I've experienced. Just a bunch of people running around like chickens with their heads cut off. At least in Death Matches (from what I've noticed) teams will try and stick together and work as a unit. The objective in team deathmatch is objectively more simple & easier for a random group of people to understand.

I think Objective Battlegrounds would be better if they were 4v4 or maybe 6v6, but I find them unfun as a 4v4v4. Doesn't feel competitive, just feel like chaos.

bachpain

Agree 100%

I fell in love with BGs during the midyear mayhem and then as soon as u33 hit I was met with tanks on flags where no one dies instead of PVP.

Stopped playing.

Dem_kitkats1

bachpain wrote: »

Agree 100%

I fell in love with BGs during the midyear mayhem and then as soon as u33 hit I was met with tanks on flags where no one dies instead of PVP.

Stopped playing.

I actually find it's the opposite. DM can often be a big slog of a match. Between the off healing and ridiculous self heals matches often reach the max time limit with a stalemate and low kill scores. Plus players don't want to engage until they find a weak link, or someone cracks. Get a team with an actual healer and it's game over. At least with a tanky player in Objective modes you can just ignore them and move on.

The most irritating thing for me is the constant chasing of things in the Objective modes. I didn't queue for a race. The maps and modes definitely need a redesign. I agree though, DM and Objective queues need to be truly separate at some point.

Aznox

I too would like a DM queue.

Aznox

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

At least with a tanky player in Objective modes you can just ignore them and move on.

That's actually the opposite, there's no counterplay to a team that swaps to tank builds in objective modes, in DM you can beat them to the burst on third team, but on any objective map full tank team is boringly over-effective.

(Not that we really care about the objective in objective mode, because, well, it's not competitive at all, but let's at least be factual)

Aznox

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Must Animation cancel (do it or lose)

Don't let PvE parses be your excuse for poor Battleground performance, in the chaos of 4v4v4, light attack weaving is quite low on the scale of deciding factors, way below proper build, build execution, positioning, map awareness, etc ... On many builds it's entirely possible to perform near top level while barely connecting one light/heavy attack every 9 seconds (for the ultimate gain).

xDeusEJRx

Zos just needs to add in objective and TDM queues and be done with it

Dem_kitkats1

Aznox wrote: »

That's actually the opposite, there's no counterplay to a team that swaps to tank builds in objective modes, in DM you can beat them to the burst on third team, but on any objective map full tank team is boringly over-effective.

(Not that we really care about the objective in objective mode, because, well, it's not competitive at all, but let's at least be factual)

Right...because you don't get 5 people wailing on 1 tanky player, or unkillable teams with healers in DMs too. You get good and bad matches in all of the modes is all I'm saying. In my experience there were a lot of unengaging stalemate/low kill matches in DMs as well.