comparing objective based PVP versus DM

Fizzyapple

I know some of you can score 30- 0- 0 with just a helmet on and without food but most of the people I play against in the "top" mmr games are/were using some variation of the DK undaunted build and some are still trying. I can think of maybe 5 or 6 regulars that weren't. Once someone finds another trick most of them will use that... In the "top" mmr games.

gariondavey

Fizzyapple wrote: »

I know some of you can score 30- 0- 0 with just a helmet on and without food but most of the people I play against in the "top" mmr games are/were using some variation of the DK undaunted build and some are still trying. I can think of maybe 5 or 6 regulars that weren't. Once someone finds another trick most of them will use that... In the "top" mmr games.

What server is that? Sounds really really weird.

Dem_kitkats1

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Isth3reno1else has made a video demonstrating just how little gear matters where he solo Q'd into a BG with Rubedo Leather gear and still managed to dominate. Mechanics and skill greatly outweigh gear. Yes, if 2 equally skilled players roll up with different builds, the better build will win, but that's kind of in support of the argument. If they're equally skilled then of course the better build will win because there's nothing else separating the players.

But a really good player absolutely can dominate with literally no gear bonuses.

I'm not saying there's no skill involved in ESO, but to say build is minimal to success isn't true. I couldn't find Isth3reno1else's video in running in all Rubedo Leather, but again, gear is only one component of a build. But the rest of his videos are literally about gear and theorycrafting, in which he discusses how changes in gear and skills can be the difference between merely surviving and actually finishing off kills. Which is true, if you're building with too much defense and sustain, you'll likely survive, but you'll hit like a wet noodle and not kill another skilled player.

In a more recent video about a post by a returning player discussing how he isn't seeing good results, Isth3reno1else immediately questions the OPs build optimization, and not skill. Why? Because some combos of skills and sets just work much better than others and can compensate for lack of skill. And that's not even going into gear traits, enchanting, or food, mundus, potions, class, performance, type of opponent etc. However, knowing all of these things and properly implementing them, or changing them on the fly depending on the type of opponents you're facing does take skill.

Sure skill will for sure give you an advantage over an inexperienced/average player, but against equally skilled players, having good stats is vital. And inexperienced players with decent builds will fair much better than those who don't. So in a nutshell, stats do matter in ESO is all I'm saying, or theorycrafting wouldn't wouldn't be as popular or important, and there would be a great deal more build diversity out there.

*Sorry OP for getting side tracked!

_adhyffbjjjf12

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Isth3reno1else has made a video demonstrating just how little gear matters where he solo Q'd into a BG with Rubedo Leather gear and still managed to dominate. Mechanics and skill greatly outweigh gear. Yes, if 2 equally skilled players roll up with different builds, the better build will win, but that's kind of in support of the argument. If they're equally skilled then of course the better build will win because there's nothing else separating the players.

But a really good player absolutely can dominate with literally no gear bonuses.

I'm not saying there's no skill involved in ESO, but to say build is minimal to success isn't true. I couldn't find Isth3reno1else's video in running in all Rubedo Leather, but again, gear is only one component of a build. But the rest of his videos are literally about gear and theorycrafting, in which he discusses how changes in gear and skills can be the difference between merely surviving and actually finishing off kills. Which is true, if you're building with too much defense and sustain, you'll likely survive, but you'll hit like a wet noodle and not kill another skilled player.

In a more recent video about a post by a returning player discussing how he isn't seeing good results, Isth3reno1else immediately questions the OPs build optimization, and not skill. Why? Because some combos of skills and sets just work much better than others and can compensate for lack of skill. And that's not even going into gear traits, enchanting, or food, mundus, potions, class, performance, type of opponent etc. However, knowing all of these things and properly implementing them, or changing them on the fly depending on the type of opponents you're facing does take skill.

Sure skill will for sure give you an advantage over an inexperienced/average player, but against equally skilled players, having good stats is vital. And inexperienced players with decent builds will fair much better than those who don't. So in a nutshell, stats do matter in ESO is all I'm saying, or theorycrafting wouldn't wouldn't be as popular or important, and there would be a great deal more build diversity out there.

*Sorry OP for getting side tracked!

the way to think of it is a mixture of multiplier and modifiers, where each operand has an impact, and some more than others, for e.g:

Ability with chosen skill set * general experience and skill * experience of target BG type * gear + food buffs + use of Animation cancelling + localised lag issues * in group versus pug * voice comms or not * ability to recognise and react to other players skills and abilities * attitude on day etc etc

or something along those lines, with the main takeaway being its a complex mix of things.

CameraBeardThePirate

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

I'm not saying there's no skill involved in ESO, but to say build is minimal to success isn't true. I couldn't find Isth3reno1else's video in running in all Rubedo Leather, but again, gear is only one component of a build. But the rest of his videos are literally about gear and theorycrafting, in which he discusses how changes in gear and skills can be the difference between merely surviving and actually finishing off kills. Which is true, if you're building with too much defense and sustain, you'll likely survive, but you'll hit like a wet noodle and not kill another skilled player.

In a more recent video about a post by a returning player discussing how he isn't seeing good results, Isth3reno1else immediately questions the OPs build optimization, and not skill. Why? Because some combos of skills and sets just work much better than others and can compensate for lack of skill. And that's not even going into gear traits, enchanting, or food, mundus, potions, class, performance, type of opponent etc. However, knowing all of these things and properly implementing them, or changing them on the fly depending on the type of opponents you're facing does take skill.

Sure skill will for sure give you an advantage over an inexperienced/average player, but against equally skilled players, having good stats is vital. And inexperienced players with decent builds will fair much better than those who don't. So in a nutshell, stats do matter in ESO is all I'm saying, or theorycrafting wouldn't wouldn't be as popular or important, and there would be a great deal more build diversity out there.

*Sorry OP for getting side tracked!

Its fair that I might be understating the importance of gear, but my point is that gear really is much less important than skill. In your example, Else was likely asking that person about their build because it's kind of difficult to offer advice that's just "get better". For players improving they should absolutely be looking to optimize their build; but really just so that there's nothing hindering their progress in improving their skill. If you take a bad player and give them great gear, they aren't going to become a great player within a match, they just might be crutching on a certain proc or mechanic.

To relate this back to the actual post, I'm of the opinion that a lot of BG players would be much better at DMing if the game modes weren't so poorly designed and didn't discourage engagements. Players lacking the practice in DMing latch on to the fact that these game modes can be won without DMing, which makes sense, and to an extent should absolutely hold true for objective based games. In my opinion though the objectives promote it too far. There should absolutely be a place in objective modes for players to outsmart other players to victory, but it shouldn't be far and away the best strategy to always avoid fights and I think it's part of the reason the divide between DM crowds and objective crowds is so wide.

gariondavey

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

I'm not saying there's no skill involved in ESO, but to say build is minimal to success isn't true. I couldn't find Isth3reno1else's video in running in all Rubedo Leather, but again, gear is only one component of a build. But the rest of his videos are literally about gear and theorycrafting, in which he discusses how changes in gear and skills can be the difference between merely surviving and actually finishing off kills. Which is true, if you're building with too much defense and sustain, you'll likely survive, but you'll hit like a wet noodle and not kill another skilled player.

In a more recent video about a post by a returning player discussing how he isn't seeing good results, Isth3reno1else immediately questions the OPs build optimization, and not skill. Why? Because some combos of skills and sets just work much better than others and can compensate for lack of skill. And that's not even going into gear traits, enchanting, or food, mundus, potions, class, performance, type of opponent etc. However, knowing all of these things and properly implementing them, or changing them on the fly depending on the type of opponents you're facing does take skill.

Sure skill will for sure give you an advantage over an inexperienced/average player, but against equally skilled players, having good stats is vital. And inexperienced players with decent builds will fair much better than those who don't. So in a nutshell, stats do matter in ESO is all I'm saying, or theorycrafting wouldn't wouldn't be as popular or important, and there would be a great deal more build diversity out there.

*Sorry OP for getting side tracked!

Its fair that I might be understating the importance of gear, but my point is that gear really is much less important than skill. In your example, Else was likely asking that person about their build because it's kind of difficult to offer advice that's just "get better". For players improving they should absolutely be looking to optimize their build; but really just so that there's nothing hindering their progress in improving their skill. If you take a bad player and give them great gear, they aren't going to become a great player within a match, they just might be crutching on a certain proc or mechanic.

To relate this back to the actual post, I'm of the opinion that a lot of BG players would be much better at DMing if the game modes weren't so poorly designed and didn't discourage engagements. Players lacking the practice in DMing latch on to the fact that these game modes can be won without DMing, which makes sense, and to an extent should absolutely hold true for objective based games. In my opinion though the objectives promote it too far. There should absolutely be a place in objective modes for players to outsmart other players to victory, but it shouldn't be far and away the best strategy to always avoid fights and I think it's part of the reason the divide between DM crowds and objective crowds is so wide.

Very well said. I completely agree!

the1andonlyskwex

jaws343 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

I'm sorry but this is wrong. A highly skilled player in bad gear can, and will absolutely destroy a less skilled player with better gear. I've seen it happen all the time. Or high skilled players with virtually 0 cp beating less skilled players with a ton of cp.

Skill is the largest contributor to success in PvP in this game. By a long shot.

If you're a highly skilled player, you don't go into any match blind, you still have an idea as to what will still work. So yeah if you don't have meta golded out gear, but it's still a semblance of decent build, you can still win against players through skill I agree. However, you can't base skill off of killing inexperienced players though. Skill is based on how well you do against other experienced players. You can't tell me that in a 1v1 between equally skilled players, that someone geared in blue overland trash is going to perform anywhere near as well as another in a gold theorycrafted sets. I bet they would struggle against an average player because ESO is a numbers game. There's no denying that build is very important, which includes good gear, slotting the right combo of skills, maximizing on all skill line passives, CP, etc. Anyone who says otherwise I would invite you to roll up SOLO (no friends or guildies to save you), in random gear, and no passives and see how far skill alone takes you. I bet you won't have a good time when you hit like a wet noodle which means you can't self heal through anything and so you pop in an instant when a couple of players hit you, and procs do nothing to help you.

Isth3reno1else has made a video demonstrating just how little gear matters where he solo Q'd into a BG with Rubedo Leather gear and still managed to dominate. Mechanics and skill greatly outweigh gear. Yes, if 2 equally skilled players roll up with different builds, the better build will win, but that's kind of in support of the argument. If they're equally skilled then of course the better build will win because there's nothing else separating the players.

But a really good player absolutely can dominate with literally no gear bonuses.

A great example of this is when I run new characters in found gear and skill leveling loadouts through BGs. I may have zero heals on my bar and wearing mismatched underleveled gear but I still can go 15-0 because I know how to use the limited skills at level 10 to my advantage.

Sub-50 BGs aren't remotely representative of max-level BGs. Almost nobody in sub-50s has a good build, so gear doesn't seem to matter (because it's all more-or-less equalized by RNG). Gear effects would be a lot more obvious if sub-50s had a significant number of people in level-appropriate golded out PvP builds.

I dominate sub-50s in found gear, but need a real PvP build and gold weapons to even come close to being competitive in moderate-to-high MMRs at max level.

bachpain

gariondavey wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

A hypothetical 4v4v4 BG match where every team is on a meta build and line-up will almost always result in a 15 minute stalemate regardless of mode. I'd much prefer if BGs were just changed to mini-scenarios in Cyrodiil such as taking an outpost or fighting over a rss with 2 teams instead of 3.

While I like that idea, you are completely ignoring the skill of the players, which is the biggest factor in determining outcome in PvP.
Build is like 30 percent, skill the other 70.

I think you are way overstating skill. I have watched streamers on "beginner or budget" builds get demolished for the first 5 minutes of BGs then put on "their builds" and end up top of the scoreboard. Same team, same player, same enemy, same skill, but different gear. In today's game with proc sets and the difference made with the right combination of skills and damage vs mitigations gear is way more than 30% in PVP. In PVE gear is a smaller factor... not in PVP.

gariondavey

bachpain wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

A hypothetical 4v4v4 BG match where every team is on a meta build and line-up will almost always result in a 15 minute stalemate regardless of mode. I'd much prefer if BGs were just changed to mini-scenarios in Cyrodiil such as taking an outpost or fighting over a rss with 2 teams instead of 3.

While I like that idea, you are completely ignoring the skill of the players, which is the biggest factor in determining outcome in PvP.
Build is like 30 percent, skill the other 70.

I think you are way overstating skill. I have watched streamers on "beginner or budget" builds get demolished for the first 5 minutes of BGs then put on "their builds" and end up top of the scoreboard. Same team, same player, same enemy, same skill, but different gear. In today's game with proc sets and the difference made with the right combination of skills and damage vs mitigations gear is way more than 30% in PVP. In PVE gear is a smaller factor... not in PVP.

No, I am not overstating skill. As aforementioned, the top tier players I know all echo this sentiment. If you play bgs on pcna at the highest level you will know the players I speak of. Giants even among very skilled players.

divnyi

@gariondavey I'm not very good at piloting but building weird strong stuff that nobody used before gives me a huge advantage. It goes both ways.

Dem_kitkats1

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Its fair that I might be understating the importance of gear, but my point is that gear really is much less important than skill. In your example, Else was likely asking that person about their build because it's kind of difficult to offer advice that's just "get better". For players improving they should absolutely be looking to optimize their build; but really just so that there's nothing hindering their progress in improving their skill. If you take a bad player and give them great gear, they aren't going to become a great player within a match, they just might be crutching on a certain proc or mechanic.

Absolutely. I was in no was saying that by putting an inexperienced player into a good build that they'll automatically become amazing, but it certainly helps them to improve on their skills. Against the more competitive vets though you absolutely need a solid build to even compete.

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Ability with chosen skill set * general experience and skill * experience of target BG type * gear + food buffs + use of Animation cancelling + localised lag issues * in group versus pug * voice comms or not * ability to recognise and react to other players skills and abilities * attitude on day etc etc

or something along those lines, with the main takeaway being its a complex mix of things.

Exactly, knowing when to push the buttons can only take you so far. There are so many other factors involved in achieving good performance.

divnyi wrote: »

@gariondavey I'm not very good at piloting but building weird strong stuff that nobody used before gives me a huge advantage. It goes both ways.

Having a strong build is definitely an advantage. Even for inexperienced players, to a lesser degree, build is very important. Entering a match in my full PvE build did not do me any favors when I first started to PvP. It was basically instant death, until I actually did some research and switched up my build to be more suitable for PvP. My skill was still terrible, and did not kill very many players, but I survived a great deal longer, which allowed me to actually learn how adjust to the PvP environment. Simply by changing my gear alone.

bachpain

I have watched it happen live on stream with big name, high skill PVP streamers trying to say that you could PVP in Crafted/overland gear and still be competitive only to end up going 0-4 on stream and have to admit that they needed to get their plaguebreak/caluureon's plus monster sets and mythics to be competitive. They simply could not get enough burst DPS to break through the heals/resistances. It didn't matter how much skill they could muster they were held back. Sure vs some noob in PVE gear in Cyrodiil they could have, but not someone ready for PVP i.e in an MMR BG setting. After a quick swap in spawn before heading back out they dominated and finished 9-4 and handily won the rest of the BG. I know I am repeating myself because the account is important to note. Same player, same opponents, SAME SKILL-- only difference was his gear swap.

The truth is there is a big skill gap yes. But there is also a huge gear gap as well. There is way more than a simple 30% success factor in having all your ducks in a row on a build compared to guys running proc sets, mythics, monster and the right poisons, food, etc. I don't disagree that there is a skill gap, I just think you are overstating it, or maybe understating the build/gear aspect of where ESO is at the moment. You don't have to agree with me.

xDeusEJRx

bachpain wrote: »

I have watched it happen live on stream with big name, high skill PVP streamers trying to say that you could PVP in Crafted/overland gear and still be competitive only to end up going 0-4 on stream and have to admit that they needed to get their plaguebreak/caluureon's plus monster sets and mythics to be competitive. They simply could not get enough burst DPS to break through the heals/resistances. It didn't matter how much skill they could muster they were held back. Sure vs some noob in PVE gear in Cyrodiil they could have, but not someone ready for PVP i.e in an MMR BG setting. After a quick swap in spawn before heading back out they dominated and finished 9-4 and handily won the rest of the BG. I know I am repeating myself because the account is important to note. Same player, same opponents, SAME SKILL-- only difference was his gear swap.

The truth is there is a big skill gap yes. But there is also a huge gear gap as well. There is way more than a simple 30% success factor in having all your ducks in a row on a build compared to guys running proc sets, mythics, monster and the right poisons, food, etc. I don't disagree that there is a skill gap, I just think you are overstating it, or maybe understating the build/gear aspect of where ESO is at the moment. You don't have to agree with me.

To be honest, you most certainly can pvp in crafted gear. I run mostly crafted builds on all my characters on most of my characters and it's totally possible to be successful. The thing is, you can't just throw on any gear set and be successful though, because of changing to mitigation and heals, you do need to have a minimum threshold of stats even with random gear pieces.
On my stam sorc I run 5 new moon acolyte, 1 markyn, 3 adept rider, and 3 agility. I peak at 6.2k WD and 11k pen which is pretty much at damage threshold and you can kill almost every opponent in BGs no problem. Literally everything here is overland except the markyn ring, which I could replace with 1 balorgh or 1 kragh. I'd say if you aren't doing at least 5.5k damage and 7k+ pen your damage is too low to be competitive in current space. But if you do reach that minimum threshold then you can kill in pretty much any gear setup

Synaptic

LashanW wrote: »

Oh please. Sounds like you haven't done objective modes against experienced players. They are full of design flaws.

Crazy King is the only good objective mode. Early stages involve a lot of direct fighting and later stages involve taking as many flags as possible.

Capture the Relic
Three teams is not a good number.
One team can easily throw the match by abandoning their own base and bum-rushing 2nd team's base (but not taking the relic, just stay there and make sure 2nd team can't score). Third team wins easily. 2nd team is helpless and is forced to lose along with first team. This is often done by experienced players when they dislike the mode and want to end the match as quick as possible.
Worse, sometimes experienced players take an enemy relic and bring to their friendly base and they KEEP it there without turning it in. This forces all the 3 teams to a single place and then it's pretty much deathmatch until timeout.

Domination
It's all about who is best at avoiding PvP. Score should be higher for defending flags instead of taking flags without any resistance. But it's not. So equip that wild hunt ring and awaken your inner Usain Bolt.

Chaosball
Oh man. This one is all about exploiting the map. Or you can use builds with very fast movement speed and just sprint around the map while using line of sight to your advantage. Most players won't be able to hit you thanks to position desync. Especially players with higher than usual ping. They got no chance.
Most maps have very hard to reach places and exp players just take the ball there. Since most heals in this game don't need to be directed, their team just spams heals in the general vicinity.
Here's an example,


Now here's an awesome one. This one is just straight up exploit. (ZoS no need to panic I'm not showing how to exploit, just the result after you do the exploit, if any mods/devs are reading this. PLEASE, fix your battleground maps)

Other 2 teams CANNOT get to the ball. If they try to use the exploit and get to green base, they get one shotted immediately thanks to the kill box at this spawn point.




Riveting gameplay really. Funnily enough, the winning team had a player whose account name was basically a meme way of asking where the deathmatch queue is
These screenshots are just from today's matches.

This is exactly on point.



This is from one of my better games and no we weren't a premade.

Despite my team and I doing our best to shut down the other teams, Purple Team was way ahead for most of the time and nearly won the game despite the fact that they would consistently lose every team fight simply by avoiding the other two teams the entire game.

All Purple would do is rez and run for the capture points in groups of two or even one while my team and Red team where fighting. If they happen to run into someone and die on the way there they would just rez and repeat the process.

I'm sorry but it doesn't feel very skill oriented or even remotely like PvP when the team that literally can't win a single fight and gets melted on sight is the one winning simply by doing objectives because the other two teams are fighting. It does indeed feel like the game modes belong in the Dungeon finder queue as someone already said in this thread.

RealLoveBVB

Synaptic wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

Oh please. Sounds like you haven't done objective modes against experienced players. They are full of design flaws.

Crazy King is the only good objective mode. Early stages involve a lot of direct fighting and later stages involve taking as many flags as possible.

Capture the Relic
Three teams is not a good number.
One team can easily throw the match by abandoning their own base and bum-rushing 2nd team's base (but not taking the relic, just stay there and make sure 2nd team can't score). Third team wins easily. 2nd team is helpless and is forced to lose along with first team. This is often done by experienced players when they dislike the mode and want to end the match as quick as possible.
Worse, sometimes experienced players take an enemy relic and bring to their friendly base and they KEEP it there without turning it in. This forces all the 3 teams to a single place and then it's pretty much deathmatch until timeout.

Domination
It's all about who is best at avoiding PvP. Score should be higher for defending flags instead of taking flags without any resistance. But it's not. So equip that wild hunt ring and awaken your inner Usain Bolt.

Chaosball
Oh man. This one is all about exploiting the map. Or you can use builds with very fast movement speed and just sprint around the map while using line of sight to your advantage. Most players won't be able to hit you thanks to position desync. Especially players with higher than usual ping. They got no chance.
Most maps have very hard to reach places and exp players just take the ball there. Since most heals in this game don't need to be directed, their team just spams heals in the general vicinity.
Here's an example,


Now here's an awesome one. This one is just straight up exploit. (ZoS no need to panic I'm not showing how to exploit, just the result after you do the exploit, if any mods/devs are reading this. PLEASE, fix your battleground maps)

Other 2 teams CANNOT get to the ball. If they try to use the exploit and get to green base, they get one shotted immediately thanks to the kill box at this spawn point.




Riveting gameplay really. Funnily enough, the winning team had a player whose account name was basically a meme way of asking where the deathmatch queue is
These screenshots are just from today's matches.

This is exactly on point.



This is from one of my better games and no we weren't a premade.

Despite my team and I doing our best to shut down the other teams, Purple Team was way ahead for most of the time and nearly won the game despite the fact that they would consistently lose every team fight simply by avoiding the other two teams the entire game.

All Purple would do is rez and run for the capture points in groups of two or even one while my team and Red team where fighting. If they happen to run into someone and die on the way there they would just rez and repeat the process.

I'm sorry but it doesn't feel very skill oriented or even remotely like PvP when the team that literally can't win a single fight and gets melted on sight is the one winning simply by doing objectives because the other two teams are fighting. It does indeed feel like the game modes belong in the Dungeon finder queue as someone already said in this thread.

32 kills with only 1,4M damage pretty much implies, that you had weak enemies, that got oneshotted pretty much. Their only chance to win a bg is to go straight for the objectives, because they are not capable to make kills on their current skill level. That's why objectives are awesone- it grants fun for casuals too.

Changing queues to DM only or change objectives to a more DM based mode would keep exactly this people away then.

drunkendx

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

"High MMR" DM games have had some of the least engaging combat that I have played as well. Teams with the most group healing are the ones that win. Those with equal healing and group versatility often end in a stalemate or with 1-2 kills more. Most of the match is a game of "poking the bear" until someone cracks and then the teams descend on one player trying the get the final blow. There's a lot of standing around and not engaging in combat for fear of dying in DMs as well.

This is accurate description of almost every DM match I played.

No tactics, just spamming skills and looking for that one enemy player that is almost dead or is out of resources.

Synaptic

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Synaptic wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

Oh please. Sounds like you haven't done objective modes against experienced players. They are full of design flaws.

Crazy King is the only good objective mode. Early stages involve a lot of direct fighting and later stages involve taking as many flags as possible.

Capture the Relic
Three teams is not a good number.
One team can easily throw the match by abandoning their own base and bum-rushing 2nd team's base (but not taking the relic, just stay there and make sure 2nd team can't score). Third team wins easily. 2nd team is helpless and is forced to lose along with first team. This is often done by experienced players when they dislike the mode and want to end the match as quick as possible.
Worse, sometimes experienced players take an enemy relic and bring to their friendly base and they KEEP it there without turning it in. This forces all the 3 teams to a single place and then it's pretty much deathmatch until timeout.

Domination
It's all about who is best at avoiding PvP. Score should be higher for defending flags instead of taking flags without any resistance. But it's not. So equip that wild hunt ring and awaken your inner Usain Bolt.

Chaosball
Oh man. This one is all about exploiting the map. Or you can use builds with very fast movement speed and just sprint around the map while using line of sight to your advantage. Most players won't be able to hit you thanks to position desync. Especially players with higher than usual ping. They got no chance.
Most maps have very hard to reach places and exp players just take the ball there. Since most heals in this game don't need to be directed, their team just spams heals in the general vicinity.
Here's an example,


Now here's an awesome one. This one is just straight up exploit. (ZoS no need to panic I'm not showing how to exploit, just the result after you do the exploit, if any mods/devs are reading this. PLEASE, fix your battleground maps)

Other 2 teams CANNOT get to the ball. If they try to use the exploit and get to green base, they get one shotted immediately thanks to the kill box at this spawn point.




Riveting gameplay really. Funnily enough, the winning team had a player whose account name was basically a meme way of asking where the deathmatch queue is
These screenshots are just from today's matches.

This is exactly on point.



This is from one of my better games and no we weren't a premade.

Despite my team and I doing our best to shut down the other teams, Purple Team was way ahead for most of the time and nearly won the game despite the fact that they would consistently lose every team fight simply by avoiding the other two teams the entire game.

All Purple would do is rez and run for the capture points in groups of two or even one while my team and Red team where fighting. If they happen to run into someone and die on the way there they would just rez and repeat the process.

I'm sorry but it doesn't feel very skill oriented or even remotely like PvP when the team that literally can't win a single fight and gets melted on sight is the one winning simply by doing objectives because the other two teams are fighting. It does indeed feel like the game modes belong in the Dungeon finder queue as someone already said in this thread.

32 kills with only 1,4M damage pretty much implies, that you had weak enemies, that got oneshotted pretty much. Their only chance to win a bg is to go straight for the objectives, because they are not capable to make kills on their current skill level. That's why objectives are awesone- it grants fun for casuals too.

Changing queues to DM only or change objectives to a more DM based mode would keep exactly this people away then.

Yeah, that's what I was saying, a team that got melted on sight nearly won the game because avoiding fighting entirely in favor of running around and capping objectives was a viable tactic for them.

The whole avoiding fighting part is what I have an issue with, I don't think it's fun at all.

Aldoss

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Synaptic wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

Oh please. Sounds like you haven't done objective modes against experienced players. They are full of design flaws.

Crazy King is the only good objective mode. Early stages involve a lot of direct fighting and later stages involve taking as many flags as possible.

Capture the Relic
Three teams is not a good number.
One team can easily throw the match by abandoning their own base and bum-rushing 2nd team's base (but not taking the relic, just stay there and make sure 2nd team can't score). Third team wins easily. 2nd team is helpless and is forced to lose along with first team. This is often done by experienced players when they dislike the mode and want to end the match as quick as possible.
Worse, sometimes experienced players take an enemy relic and bring to their friendly base and they KEEP it there without turning it in. This forces all the 3 teams to a single place and then it's pretty much deathmatch until timeout.

Domination
It's all about who is best at avoiding PvP. Score should be higher for defending flags instead of taking flags without any resistance. But it's not. So equip that wild hunt ring and awaken your inner Usain Bolt.

Chaosball
Oh man. This one is all about exploiting the map. Or you can use builds with very fast movement speed and just sprint around the map while using line of sight to your advantage. Most players won't be able to hit you thanks to position desync. Especially players with higher than usual ping. They got no chance.
Most maps have very hard to reach places and exp players just take the ball there. Since most heals in this game don't need to be directed, their team just spams heals in the general vicinity.
Here's an example,


Now here's an awesome one. This one is just straight up exploit. (ZoS no need to panic I'm not showing how to exploit, just the result after you do the exploit, if any mods/devs are reading this. PLEASE, fix your battleground maps)

Other 2 teams CANNOT get to the ball. If they try to use the exploit and get to green base, they get one shotted immediately thanks to the kill box at this spawn point.




Riveting gameplay really. Funnily enough, the winning team had a player whose account name was basically a meme way of asking where the deathmatch queue is
These screenshots are just from today's matches.

This is exactly on point.



This is from one of my better games and no we weren't a premade.

Despite my team and I doing our best to shut down the other teams, Purple Team was way ahead for most of the time and nearly won the game despite the fact that they would consistently lose every team fight simply by avoiding the other two teams the entire game.

All Purple would do is rez and run for the capture points in groups of two or even one while my team and Red team where fighting. If they happen to run into someone and die on the way there they would just rez and repeat the process.

I'm sorry but it doesn't feel very skill oriented or even remotely like PvP when the team that literally can't win a single fight and gets melted on sight is the one winning simply by doing objectives because the other two teams are fighting. It does indeed feel like the game modes belong in the Dungeon finder queue as someone already said in this thread.

32 kills with only 1,4M damage pretty much implies, that you had weak enemies, that got oneshotted pretty much. Their only chance to win a bg is to go straight for the objectives, because they are not capable to make kills on their current skill level. That's why objectives are awesone- it grants fun for casuals too.

Changing queues to DM only or change objectives to a more DM based mode would keep exactly this people away then.

This makes no logical sense to me.

Should amatuer golfers be allowed to play in the PGA tournaments with their relative handicap and still be given a trophy if they score better than a pro?

I'm all for separating the queues and calling this a wash and shaming ZOS for their abhorrent mismanagement of our respective communities, but I don't think that's the best solution here.

The problem is that the divide between players who understand the combat mechs of this game and those who don't is huge. Giving players an out and rewarding them for actively ignoring the combat system doesn't help them learn.

The game modes need to be updated and redesigned to help serve this community looking to learn combat. As is, there's too many people joining bgs with literally less than 20k hp getting one-shotted by any average player who knows how to line up a burst combo unabated and then getting frustrated and calling their attacker "toxic" or a "try hard" simply because they played the game better.

If it's unacceptable for someone to say that they refuse to participate in any objectives, then it's equally unacceptable for someone to join a bg with 17k hp and say "I'm just here for the daily" and get one-shotted over and over.

RealLoveBVB

Aldoss wrote: »

Giving players an out and rewarding them for actively ignoring the combat system doesn't help them learn.

"Ignoring the combat system", or in any other words "playing the current tank meta and crosshealing eachothers butt".
If you expect that from everyone, then it doesn't surprise me, that PVP and especially bgs is exactly in its current state.

I have no clue about golf, but when a amateur scores better than a profi because of his own tactic, then he deserved a trophy?

gariondavey

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Giving players an out and rewarding them for actively ignoring the combat system doesn't help them learn.

"Ignoring the combat system", or in any other words "playing the current tank meta and crosshealing eachothers butt".
If you expect that from everyone, then it doesn't surprise me, that PVP and especially bgs is exactly in its current state.

I have no clue about golf, but when a amateur scores better than a profi because of his own tactic, then he deserved a trophy?

Aldoss is right. You are wrong.

Urzigurumash

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

I have no clue about golf, but when a amateur scores better than a profi because of his own tactic, then he deserved a trophy?

Not if this tactic involved moving the ball further away from the hole rather than towards it

RealLoveBVB

Urzigurumash wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

I have no clue about golf, but when a amateur scores better than a profi because of his own tactic, then he deserved a trophy?

Not if this tactic involved moving the ball further away from the hole rather than towards it

The earth is a ball. So moving the golf ball in the "wrong" direction on the first sight, will still move it to the hole after some time.

WordsOfPower

There are plenty of folks out there trying to help people improve at PvP, make it more accessible, even play alongside people and give them pointers.

There are not, so far as I can see, any folks offering the same for objective play, because to make a guide you'd have to think long and hard about it, and if you did that, you'd realise how ridiculous the game modes are.

Such a guide would include things like the following -

"have multiple sets of gear in your inventory, including Meridian Armor so you can't be bashed while you pick up the relic, and sets that make you almost invincible and ludicrously quick while carrying chaos ball"

"tweak your graphic settings and install these addons you can see players even if they're on the other side of the arena... This way you can know which empty flags to run towards"

"only play NBs you even while you run, you are mostly undetectable, since people rarely run detect in BGs"

SoulwayFilth

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

A hypothetical 4v4v4 BG match where every team is on a meta build and line-up will almost always result in a 15 minute stalemate regardless of mode. I'd much prefer if BGs were just changed to mini-scenarios in Cyrodiil such as taking an outpost or fighting over a rss with 2 teams instead of 3.

Yep.
Reduce 3 teams down to 2, keep the total player numbers as 6v6.

Remove Chaosball - Gimmicky for wins, speed or hide in glitch spots for the win.
Consolidate Crazy King & Domination - Too many flags in Domination, can just cap & run with no PVP to win. Crazy King forces fights due to reduction if points, works well.
Deathmatch 4v4
Add - Outposts
Create mini resource maps with fixed strong seige & point capture involves actual pvp such as a small cyro. Can do outposts each side with relic locked behind as such, or just straight up battle & points systems which encourage different types of play.

3 teams is exploitable, 2 would be better. Better ratings for players to match, games played + CP amount possibly? W/L or Score as long as exploitation can be reduced or stopped.

So much more they can do. Objective modes are good to mix up, DM all the time can also get stale. Just need to improve the alternative modes so they are less exploitable & provide an actual PVP experience. See a 6v6 outpost scenario could be great, combined with relic capture. You could than actually have some roles for approaches, brawlers clear the way & actual cappers, but they need each other to work. Not just solo creep around.

But in saying all this, doubt it would happen.