Fascinating that this issue has ballooned so much that it warrants an official thread. I used to joke that there is always a thread about this on the front page, so I shouldn't be surprised.
I doubt it's always the same voices raising this issue, tho. I remember being among the first who brought this up years ago, but I haven't participated in these repetitive discussions in quite some time. Since then I have heard the same complaints from all my friends who have quit, all of which by no means min-maxers or as occupied with creating builds as I am.
That the majority of the content is unengaging at endgame is a big issue for them.
In my opinion, there are two main issues with the current situation around overland content and difficulty:
For one, the vast majority of the game's content (and newly released content) is easy as pie solo overland PvE, but once you reach "endgame" (or rather max out your character), the content focus completely flips into challenging group PvE. That means on the one side people are just not prepared for the steep rise in difficulty of group content, and on the other side solo players don't have anything left to do to keep them engaged - outside of vet Maelstrom and Vateshran perhaps.
Second, which flows from the first point, is that in solo content the whole game design falls apart once you max out your character. Because the vast majority of content is so easy, there is no incentive to make use of the games systems - acquiring new sets, upgrading, crafting, potions, poisons, companions, champion points, combat mechanics, etc. Why should I invest any time in that fluff when I can walk through 95% of the new content each year like it's nothing? That's just not good game design.
It's like playing Monopoly without dice and money - fine, you might enjoy putting all your adorable houses in a row. But it's not much of a game anymore.
I might add a 3rd point, that is more ephemeral and might not be important to as many people, but I think it's worth pointing out. The magic of an Elder Scrolls game lies in its exploration of the world, and that goes hand in hand with the dangers in that world. Being able to venture into a new area because your character is finally strong enough is a vital component of the TES experience, as is preparing for the journey. ESO has become so trivial that the journey is not any more interesting than a trip down the hall to the bathroom.
RPGs rely a lot on progression. Overcoming a new obstacle, either through adjusting your playstyle or improving our character's capabilities, that's at the core of the genre, and why I and a lot of other people enjoy it. Understandably, this cannot be accomplished indefinitely. When I play through a solo RPG in 30-40 hours, I can consider that a good time and be done with it.
Multiplayer RPGs have the disadvantage that the game just never really ends - but also the advantage that they can always add new content. Most MMOs regularly increase the level and gear caps for this reason, in addition to a higher difficulty for new content. ESO is unique in that regard, which comes with its pros and cons. I love that One Tamriel lets me explore wherever I want, with whomever I want. I love that I don't have to chase new upgrade materials every update. But it also limits my engagement with all that new content, because I'm just clicking on quest markers at this point.
Optional higher difficulty settings would address a lot of these issues, bringing more coherence to the game experience. Casual players can have a more gradual progression into the more difficult endgame content, solo players can find challenges after maxing out their characters, staying engaged for longer than the 3 days it takes to play through new quests, and everyone would profit from a higher importance of the game's systems.
And yes, of course this would be optional. That the content difficulty and your or your character's abilities have to be in sync is the whole point.
Despite claims that this would be a waste of development time, it would also be the most lightweight addition possible. All the necessary systems already exist to make this happen, because everyone scales anyway. Granting optional debuffs like Battle Spirit is absolutely trivial compared to the development of antiquities or companions. It would reinvigorate old content without the need to develop new one. It's a downright steal for the development team.
Background:So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.
Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.
I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.
Advantages of increasing difficulty:How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.
What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.
More options = more satisfied players.
Disatvantages:Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.
On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.
Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).
Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.
This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.
Edit: some typos.
I feel there are already some mechanics in place that can hurt you, but there is just no reason to pay attention to them - as you said, even your Iceheart shields protect you sufficiently. I think lowering our stats would at least make us consider paying attention to the mechanics that already exist. This is also the source of the spike in difficulty between normal and veteran dungeons - in normal most groups just don't have to pay attention to the mechanics because they can power through everything.Fascinating that this issue has ballooned so much that it warrants an official thread. I used to joke that there is always a thread about this on the front page, so I shouldn't be surprised.
I doubt it's always the same voices raising this issue, tho. I remember being among the first who brought this up years ago, but I haven't participated in these repetitive discussions in quite some time. Since then I have heard the same complaints from all my friends who have quit, all of which by no means min-maxers or as occupied with creating builds as I am.
That the majority of the content is unengaging at endgame is a big issue for them.
In my opinion, there are two main issues with the current situation around overland content and difficulty:
For one, the vast majority of the game's content (and newly released content) is easy as pie solo overland PvE, but once you reach "endgame" (or rather max out your character), the content focus completely flips into challenging group PvE. That means on the one side people are just not prepared for the steep rise in difficulty of group content, and on the other side solo players don't have anything left to do to keep them engaged - outside of vet Maelstrom and Vateshran perhaps.
Second, which flows from the first point, is that in solo content the whole game design falls apart once you max out your character. Because the vast majority of content is so easy, there is no incentive to make use of the games systems - acquiring new sets, upgrading, crafting, potions, poisons, companions, champion points, combat mechanics, etc. Why should I invest any time in that fluff when I can walk through 95% of the new content each year like it's nothing? That's just not good game design.
It's like playing Monopoly without dice and money - fine, you might enjoy putting all your adorable houses in a row. But it's not much of a game anymore.
I might add a 3rd point, that is more ephemeral and might not be important to as many people, but I think it's worth pointing out. The magic of an Elder Scrolls game lies in its exploration of the world, and that goes hand in hand with the dangers in that world. Being able to venture into a new area because your character is finally strong enough is a vital component of the TES experience, as is preparing for the journey. ESO has become so trivial that the journey is not any more interesting than a trip down the hall to the bathroom.
RPGs rely a lot on progression. Overcoming a new obstacle, either through adjusting your playstyle or improving our character's capabilities, that's at the core of the genre, and why I and a lot of other people enjoy it. Understandably, this cannot be accomplished indefinitely. When I play through a solo RPG in 30-40 hours, I can consider that a good time and be done with it.
Multiplayer RPGs have the disadvantage that the game just never really ends - but also the advantage that they can always add new content. Most MMOs regularly increase the level and gear caps for this reason, in addition to a higher difficulty for new content. ESO is unique in that regard, which comes with its pros and cons. I love that One Tamriel lets me explore wherever I want, with whomever I want. I love that I don't have to chase new upgrade materials every update. But it also limits my engagement with all that new content, because I'm just clicking on quest markers at this point.
Optional higher difficulty settings would address a lot of these issues, bringing more coherence to the game experience. Casual players can have a more gradual progression into the more difficult endgame content, solo players can find challenges after maxing out their characters, staying engaged for longer than the 3 days it takes to play through new quests, and everyone would profit from a higher importance of the game's systems.
And yes, of course this would be optional. That the content difficulty and your or your character's abilities have to be in sync is the whole point.
Despite claims that this would be a waste of development time, it would also be the most lightweight addition possible. All the necessary systems already exist to make this happen, because everyone scales anyway. Granting optional debuffs like Battle Spirit is absolutely trivial compared to the development of antiquities or companions. It would reinvigorate old content without the need to develop new one. It's a downright steal for the development team.
Eh... I have pressed "awesome" but then read your last words about self-nerf As you already said, RPGs about progression, growth and self-perfection, but self-debuff will just brought us in the situation where you are struggling with one mob, while someone else kills it just by passing by! Many have already said (me including) that enemies are just not trying to kill the player. I got into situations where I wanted mobs to kill me so I could return to the exist without paying gold for teleport, but they just couldn't overdamage my Iceheart shields and HP regeneration! No, my friend, I insist if we will get vOL, then it MUST have smarter enemies who either trying to kill you or struggling not to die.
Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »Background:So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.
Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.
I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.
Advantages of increasing difficulty:How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.
What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.
More options = more satisfied players.
Disatvantages:Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.
On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.
Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).
Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.
This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.
Edit: some typos.
No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.
Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!
If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.
Also the quote:
"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I wan
Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.
I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.
Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »Background:So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.
Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.
I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.
Advantages of increasing difficulty:How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.
What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.
More options = more satisfied players.
Disatvantages:Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.
On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.
Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).
Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.
This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.
Edit: some typos.
No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.
Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!
If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.
Also the quote:
"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty."
Assumes you know my reasons for wanting to enjoy the game as it is, and as I don't tell the veteran players to reduce your challenge so I enjoy it more (as I don't do any vet content) I would thank you to leave my enjoyment alone.
Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.
I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.
Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »Background:So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.
Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.
I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.
Advantages of increasing difficulty:How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.
What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.
More options = more satisfied players.
Disatvantages:Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.
On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.
Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).
Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.
This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.
Edit: some typos.
No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.
Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!
If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.
Also the quote:
"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty."
Assumes you know my reasons for wanting to enjoy the game as it is, and as I don't tell the veteran players to reduce your challenge so I enjoy it more (as I don't do any vet content) I would thank you to leave my enjoyment alone.
Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.
I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.
StevieKingslayer wrote: »One extra aside; Have you guys seen the animations of the new mobs in the new land?
Im betting most of you havent, because they are being killed to quickly.
Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »
Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.
I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.
Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »
Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.
I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.
You aren't alone. As I quoted on the first page, straight from Rich Lambert, this is an old topic and they simply aren't interested in increasing the overland difficulty level. If people want a challenge, there are places they can go to do so.
So, while this thread did get stickied, it is a focus for the people who want to keep discussing it, rather than creating multitudes of threads again and again.
In this thread, you won't win against the opposing voices. In the actual game, things will remain the same, with a spectrum of difficulty that makes the game accessible to a broader audience.
You're just going to beat your head against a wall here.
Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »Background:So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.
Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.
I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.
Advantages of increasing difficulty:How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.
What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.
More options = more satisfied players.
Disatvantages:Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.
On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.
Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).
Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.
This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.
Edit: some typos.
No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.
Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!
If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.
Also the quote:
"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty."
Assumes you know my reasons for wanting to enjoy the game as it is, and as I don't tell the veteran players to reduce your challenge so I enjoy it more (as I don't do any vet content) I would thank you to leave my enjoyment alone.
Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.
I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.
So basically your fun is more important than someone's fun? And just because you don't like some idea (heroes don't die) you want limit others from having fun? That idea doesn't limit your fun, you will still be able to do what you do or even more, you will learn something new, but just because you don't like some minor changes, you want to ruin fun for thousands of other people? You don't even try to understand the other side and you don't want to find a solution that would allow everyone to have fun, you just care about your self and preserving current status quo. This is not the way to solve a problem.
Source? I haven't kept up with the discussion in a few months, and am not used to devs talking to us in the first place lolIf people wanna enjoy the story without a fight, make a movie.
No serious, keep normal overland the way it is, but allow a vet instance for people that want it.
And RIch said it is not that simple. Seriously. Those were his words answering the question about an optional higher difficulty.
Even beyond that Rich indicated that the game became immensely more successful with the current design.
Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »Background:So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.
Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.
I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.
Advantages of increasing difficulty:How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.
What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.
More options = more satisfied players.
Disatvantages:Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.
On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.
Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).
Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.
This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.
Edit: some typos.
No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.
Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!
If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.
Also the quote:
"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty."
Assumes you know my reasons for wanting to enjoy the game as it is, and as I don't tell the veteran players to reduce your challenge so I enjoy it more (as I don't do any vet content) I would thank you to leave my enjoyment alone.
Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.
I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.
So basically your fun is more important than someone's fun? And just because you don't like some idea (heroes don't die) you want limit others from having fun? That idea doesn't limit your fun, you will still be able to do what you do or even more, you will learn something new, but just because you don't like some minor changes, you want to ruin fun for thousands of other people? You don't even try to understand the other side and you don't want to find a solution that would allow everyone to have fun, you just care about your self and preserving current status quo. This is not the way to solve a problem.
You are reading it wrong. My fun is no more or less important than that of anyone else, and I'll prove it to you...
My point was simply that I am happy with the way it is currently, and if made optional I don't care what is added, within reason. That reason being DEVELOPER TIME. The changes you purpose will take TONS of time to implement (new AI? are you kidding me?) and in doing so you will remove fun from everyone (understanding enough for ya) while they wait possibly years to get new content. Many of us, I am sure, don't want to become stronger, nor do we want to be challenged when we play a game just to quest. As has been said WE DON"T WANT TO PLAY DARK SOULS when we are just out questing!
An optional self nerfing potion could be added much easier as hinder health potions are already in the base game and could be modified easier. If you truly only want a challenge then these would suit the bill IMO; OK you wouldn't get a shiny new AI but then again the rest of us could enjoy some new content within this decade.
Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »Background:So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.
Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.
I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.
Advantages of increasing difficulty:How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.
What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.
More options = more satisfied players.
Disatvantages:Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.
On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.
Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).
Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.
This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.
Edit: some typos.
No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.
Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!
If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.
Also the quote:
"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty."
Assumes you know my reasons for wanting to enjoy the game as it is, and as I don't tell the veteran players to reduce your challenge so I enjoy it more (as I don't do any vet content) I would thank you to leave my enjoyment alone.
Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.
I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.
So basically your fun is more important than someone's fun? And just because you don't like some idea (heroes don't die) you want limit others from having fun? That idea doesn't limit your fun, you will still be able to do what you do or even more, you will learn something new, but just because you don't like some minor changes, you want to ruin fun for thousands of other people? You don't even try to understand the other side and you don't want to find a solution that would allow everyone to have fun, you just care about your self and preserving current status quo. This is not the way to solve a problem.
You are reading it wrong. My fun is no more or less important than that of anyone else, and I'll prove it to you...
My point was simply that I am happy with the way it is currently, and if made optional I don't care what is added, within reason. That reason being DEVELOPER TIME. The changes you purpose will take TONS of time to implement (new AI? are you kidding me?) and in doing so you will remove fun from everyone (understanding enough for ya) while they wait possibly years to get new content. Many of us, I am sure, don't want to become stronger, nor do we want to be challenged when we play a game just to quest. As has been said WE DON"T WANT TO PLAY DARK SOULS when we are just out questing!
An optional self nerfing potion could be added much easier as hinder health potions are already in the base game and could be modified easier. If you truly only want a challenge then these would suit the bill IMO; OK you wouldn't get a shiny new AI but then again the rest of us could enjoy some new content within this decade.
You are deceiving yourself. When a proposition about content difficulty is made that cannot be negated in any way it always, but always, falls flat about ZOS resources. This is not your or any of our business, because we have absolutely no knowledge on this subject and building any argument on guesswork is pointless.
The new AI as I put it in brackets does not have to be anything advanced. Just a few patterns of new behavior for most of the mobs, because they use the same ones anyway. Increasing the frequency and strength of attacks is not particularly demanding, it doesn't require new logic, just changing values in existing functions. New doesn't mean complicated.
And optional nerf the only thing that will introduce is that instead of more interesting fights we will only have longer fights and as I wrote no one wants that. Nobody wants to do DPS parse every time in the fight, we want the fight to be more engaging, so that we have to actively block, dodge, heal, etc. and to do this we need to change the behavior of mobs, at least minimally. On the other hand, if someone couldn't handle such mechanics on lower difficulty levels even if they got a full combo from an NPC their HP wouldn't budge much as it is now. There's nothing about this that would hinder your game in any way. NOTHING!
And like I said, let the ZOS decide how to allocate their resources, because only they know the actual amount of work needed to make such changes. The hyperbole of saying "years without new content" is exaggerated and you know it, because somehow the change in the other direction i.e. when One Tamriel was introduced didn't take ZOS whole years, so a subtle change in NPC behavior shouldn't take them more. Logic is your friend.
Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »Background:So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.
Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.
I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.
Advantages of increasing difficulty:How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.
What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.
More options = more satisfied players.
Disatvantages:Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.
On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.
Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).
Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.
This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.
Edit: some typos.
No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.
Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!
If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.
Also the quote:
"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty."
Assumes you know my reasons for wanting to enjoy the game as it is, and as I don't tell the veteran players to reduce your challenge so I enjoy it more (as I don't do any vet content) I would thank you to leave my enjoyment alone.
Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.
I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.
So basically your fun is more important than someone's fun? And just because you don't like some idea (heroes don't die) you want limit others from having fun? That idea doesn't limit your fun, you will still be able to do what you do or even more, you will learn something new, but just because you don't like some minor changes, you want to ruin fun for thousands of other people? You don't even try to understand the other side and you don't want to find a solution that would allow everyone to have fun, you just care about your self and preserving current status quo. This is not the way to solve a problem.
You are reading it wrong. My fun is no more or less important than that of anyone else, and I'll prove it to you...
My point was simply that I am happy with the way it is currently, and if made optional I don't care what is added, within reason. That reason being DEVELOPER TIME. The changes you purpose will take TONS of time to implement (new AI? are you kidding me?) and in doing so you will remove fun from everyone (understanding enough for ya) while they wait possibly years to get new content. Many of us, I am sure, don't want to become stronger, nor do we want to be challenged when we play a game just to quest. As has been said WE DON"T WANT TO PLAY DARK SOULS when we are just out questing!
An optional self nerfing potion could be added much easier as hinder health potions are already in the base game and could be modified easier. If you truly only want a challenge then these would suit the bill IMO; OK you wouldn't get a shiny new AI but then again the rest of us could enjoy some new content within this decade.
You are deceiving yourself. When a proposition about content difficulty is made that cannot be negated in any way it always, but always, falls flat about ZOS resources. This is not your or any of our business, because we have absolutely no knowledge on this subject and building any argument on guesswork is pointless.
The new AI as I put it in brackets does not have to be anything advanced. Just a few patterns of new behavior for most of the mobs, because they use the same ones anyway. Increasing the frequency and strength of attacks is not particularly demanding, it doesn't require new logic, just changing values in existing functions. New doesn't mean complicated.
And optional nerf the only thing that will introduce is that instead of more interesting fights we will only have longer fights and as I wrote no one wants that. Nobody wants to do DPS parse every time in the fight, we want the fight to be more engaging, so that we have to actively block, dodge, heal, etc. and to do this we need to change the behavior of mobs, at least minimally. On the other hand, if someone couldn't handle such mechanics on lower difficulty levels even if they got a full combo from an NPC their HP wouldn't budge much as it is now. There's nothing about this that would hinder your game in any way. NOTHING!
And like I said, let the ZOS decide how to allocate their resources, because only they know the actual amount of work needed to make such changes. The hyperbole of saying "years without new content" is exaggerated and you know it, because somehow the change in the other direction i.e. when One Tamriel was introduced didn't take ZOS whole years, so a subtle change in NPC behavior shouldn't take them more. Logic is your friend.
Ok so we are on the same page here you want to, at minimum, adjust the behavior of every npc, critter, monster etc. etc. even with overlap it will still take time that (even though we don't know the resources available) to implement. This time could be much better spent IMO.
I cannot speak for others here, but if I suddenly find myself dying over and over in a game I used to play on a casual basis, I won't even try to "get gud" I'll just leave. Hopefully ZOS gives enough notice to cancel my sub first though. Frustration is not why I choose a game, I come to this game to relax. My last MMO decided to "up the difficulty" of the overland hence it became my "last" MMO. Here's the thing you are not getting, being challenged loosing all its luster when you are faced with enough "challenge" just getting out of bed in the morning. An optional switch (potion, spell) is the only thing I would like to see here.
Lets just say we will never agree on your proposal and leave it at that, I need sleep anyways.
I have heard the same complaints from all my friends who have quit, all of which by no means min-maxers or as occupied with creating builds as I am.
That the majority of the content is unengaging at endgame is a big issue for them.
So, while this thread did get stickied, it is a focus for the people who want to keep discussing it, rather than creating multitudes of threads again and again.
In this thread, you won't win against the opposing voices. In the actual game, things will remain the same, with a spectrum of difficulty that makes the game accessible to a broader audience.
You're just going to beat your head against a wall here.
I got into situations where I wanted mobs to kill me so I could return to the exist without paying gold for teleport, but they just couldn't overdamage my Iceheart shields and HP regeneration!
Ravensilver wrote: »I am still missing the long-term sustainability of the idea here.
So we get the vet upgrade. You go do your quest, you bang on the quest endboss for half an hour, you die, you finally manage to kill him/her/it. You feel accomplished. The quest is finished.
Now what?
You can't do the quest again. You can't repeat the fight. Where is the sustainability here?
It shows that this discussion that placed over several years now is getting focused by ZOS and didnt goes about winning or loosing. If you want and thing changed, you start one focussed disscusion over it where booth sides can argue it and bring it to the people who had to take a decicion.
so is everyone on board with difficulty slider?
[snip] Anyway the point of example was not that I want to die easily to save some gold, but about enemies who aren't trying to kill player while it is their only purpose!SilverBride wrote: »
If people wanna enjoy the story without a fight, make a movie.
No serious, keep normal overland the way it is, but allow a vet instance for people that want it.
And RIch said it is not that simple. Seriously. Those were his words answering the question about an optional higher difficulty.
Even beyond that Rich indicated that the game became immensely more successful with the current design.
I have no issue if Zenimax chooses to make such an optional setting. However, I respect their business decision as they say their data clearly suggest the huge majority of players are interested in enjoying the stories of the quests without being hindered with combat. I enjoy a challenge in combat but have never had an issue with easy story fights or felt something was missing.