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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
800k people don't seem to mind difficult overworld
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Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭trackdemon5512 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
I'm not saying to overhaul the old bosses because at this point that is unrealistic - but what I am saying is that the problem is almost entirely a Mechanics issue, not one of stats.
- and that your "solution" is in reality a Non-Solution, because it is no different than wearing bad gear, minimal skills, no cp none of which solved the problem of poorly designed mechanics. Just handicapping yourself does not solve the issue that people are complaining about.
It is different than handicapping yourself with gear because it allows you to push beyond just running naked would do. And yes it is a solution to this issue, games have done it to add additional challenge to things for years. That you personally wouldn't enjoy having to deal with existing mechanics doesn't change that this is a tried, true method of increasing difficulty and one with a LONG history in this franchise.
I don't view it your way at all. I don't need new mechs and don't find it reasonable to expect them to spend that much time on it when the vast majority of the playerbase doesn't want it. They have already made it clear that's not gonna happen.
Going to point at Pre- One Tamriel to show that the majority didn’t enjoy it.
Like what you’re proposing is no different than the very thing that others have said was bad for the game. Or from naked builds because it’s still a self imposed handicap.
It’s not that I wouldn’t enjoy the mechanics but rather the lack of mechanics.
And again I am not saying that ZOS should overhaul the entire games mechanics.
What I’m saying is that it doesn’t come down to stats and that going forward ZOS would have to handle things like the main story differently to make it enjoyable for a wider audience.
Furthermore ESO is not the single player games and works differently from say Skyrim.
One major difference being that enemies & player were of similar speed. It makes sense to just buff stats
BUT
ESO has very different gameplay from both players and enemies- you cannot expect the same solution to work especially when there is already evidence that it doesn’t.BONUS:
Can someone point to a real game, single player or multiplayer, where increased difficulty has different attacks from the lower difficulty? I’m not talking about MMORPGs. I mean games from other genres where this was programmed. I personally cannot think of any where increased difficulty isn’t just increased enemy damage and decreased player resistances.
ESO literally does this with Dungeon & Trial Bosses
Yes I know ESO does that with trial and dungeon bosses. What I’m looking for are other games that do so or apply it to an entire game.
What I’m seeing is (despite the claims of some here that adding a vet overland is easy) there are incredibly few instances of such actually being implemented. Most games go the route of increasing enemy damage output, decreasing player hardiness/vitality. None essentially actually program optional mechanics that might not be experienced. The ones that do don’t do it anywhere close to the extent that ESO does with normal and veteran instanced combat.
Making a vet overland would be a massive undertaking.
I agree which is why I’ve proposed other ideas, fair compromises, that I think are more realistic.
Like I’ve said in the past, we see a problem and want a solution. That doesn’t mean we know what that solution is, or that one side universally agrees on it, which is part of the point in having these discussions.
It’s necessary to look at ideas and consider not only their plausibility but also their effectiveness as well as their appeal.
Because there are things like power creep & balancing to consider. The fact that Overland is already set to CP160.
The fact that just making all enemies in a zone hit harder doesn’t make them fun as we’ve seen by evidence in Pre-One Tamriel.0 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »@kargen27
Why? No worthy argument has ever been made against this. Yes, people are needed to kill WB or close the anchor. But the game is not focused only around wb and anchors, and the rest of the time people in overland do not cooperate.A separate instance in overland would not be good for the game
Why? This already exists in dungeons and trials and no one minds. Why should players who only care about story care about rewards?Different rewards for different levels of difficulty would not be a good idea.
Other games do this and are very popular. Jesus, the most popular games in the world are pvp games.The time needed to rework mechanics to make fights more compelling would be a poor investment given the likely returns
A worthy argument has been made. It would divide the player base and could make zones feel empty. Zones need to feel populated. A well populated zone goes a long ways in enticing new players to sticking around.
Trials and dungeons are things you do voluntarily. Overland is the very base of the game. We see players now that queue for vet dungeons when they really are not ready for them because of the rewards. This causes frustration for them in being unable to complete the content or frustration in the players that carry them. Sometimes both.
And about those rewards. How much better would they need to be to get people to move to the harder content? Exactly why would people that only want more engaging content need to be bribed into enjoying that harder content? Why would they care any more than people doing the story would care? If the rewards were say blue drops instead of green then probably nobody would care. But if that were the case why bother? If the rewards were much better then just like the dungeons and trials people not ready for the vet level would feel compelled to move to vet instead of missing out on the better rewards. Brings us back to all that frustration that isn't good for long term game play.
What other game reworked their entire base game to introduce whole new mechanics to the NPCs? How much did their player base increase after making the sweeping changes?
This has nothing at all to do with PvP. This is people asking for harder more compelling PvE content. Open world PvP is a whole different argument and also would not work in ESO.
These threads live for so long because several people just don't listen to each other's arguments and the whole conversation starts anew.
Locations are already divided by mirrors. When there are too many people in one location, the game creates another instance for the players to get into. Now imagine that we have a new dlc release and at the moment there are 4 instances of the location, filled with 200 players each (in fact, it is not known for certain how many players can fit one instance of the location in eso). Now let's imagine we have a version of vet. overlend for the new dlc. Some of the players are there now. Now we have 3 normal instances and 1 veteran, or 2/2. Does not matter. One mirror can only accommodate a limited number of players. You argue that a highpopulation location attracts new players, like all players are playing overland. But this is not so ... High-end players, having completed all the quests of the new dlc, as well as having received all the achievements (all this takes me no more than a week), then leave the location, returning their character back to Vivec for crafting dailys. Ta Daaam! The End! There is absolutely no point in returning to the location, there are no activities that would be attractive to the high-end player.
Why does ZoS give us all the motives for releasing a new dlc at once? Why do we have these boring events every month where there is nothing but 2x awards and new cosmetics? Because ZoS knows very well how quickly dlc`s spend their resource and it is necessary to somehow artificially keep the population.
Just like dungeons, we want an optional function of vet overland. I described above why this will not affect the player population. Please don't ignore this.
About what you said about the awards and the rework of old locations. I still think that there is no need to rework the old locations. They will also remain boring. No one wants to return to Deshaan or Auridon, because the mobs now are stronger there. No one needs it.
I believe that the ideal solution would be to create a new Adventure Zones like Craglorn, with many different activities with different rewards. Of course, with the normal and veteran version. When there was an event, many players wrote that the Craglorn experience was something new and fun for them. Especially players talk about Shada`s Tear, although in addition to this, there are several more similar instances in Craglorn.
And I cited pvp games as an example that the challenge in games does not interfere with their popularity and profitability in any way.Edited by Parasaurolophus on 8 October 2021 12:23PC/EU2 -
Blood_again✭✭✭✭✭Hallothiel wrote: »
Thank you for references, guys. It was my pleasure to read that thread
Actually I doubt any closed threads would be reopened.0 -
mickeyx✭✭✭✭I think we should sit back and take a second look at this game's overworld to make it more interesting and exciting. Bumping up the mob difficulty seems to be a good start. I really doubt many people would complain. The only issue is that it can't just be done as a lone update but rather paired up with a sort of re-launch or massive event advertising the game. What do you think? What else could be implemented to make leveling exciting and not just a delay to end-game content? Because that's basically what it is, it's just a delay not even a challenging obstacle.
New World just came out. Wait till it's population takes a nose dive in a month or two. People are already complaining about mandatory grouping for main quest and how no one wants to group up and everyone busy grinding solo to lvl 60. Lol
I must also add playing New World with its terrible animation locked combat, terrible inventory and travelling system made me appreciate ESO even more. Don't be surprised if New World ends up with half of its servers empty in couple of months.
...its better and more fun than what we have here(pvp perspective)....there may be complaints, but are they more than all the pvp complaints in THIS game?
Different market....pve people may not like it, Eso is way better pve content wise(quests, lore, dungeons), but end game pvp, honestly, tell me what we have here?
Playing NW made me appreciate what we DONT have here....but as I always say, if you're having fun here, then that's a good thing. I'm not, and many others agree with me.
ESO was never a PVP focused game. New World is. So people who agree with you should atleast do some basic research in what game is trying to capture what kind of players.
Moreover, if you are playing New World you would know how bad PVP scaling is in the game and constant complaints about faction imbalance, terrible XP, and how majority of players don't want to flag for PvP
It's a complete [snip] show.
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 8 October 2021 11:012 -
NagualV✭✭✭✭I think we should sit back and take a second look at this game's overworld to make it more interesting and exciting. Bumping up the mob difficulty seems to be a good start. I really doubt many people would complain. The only issue is that it can't just be done as a lone update but rather paired up with a sort of re-launch or massive event advertising the game. What do you think? What else could be implemented to make leveling exciting and not just a delay to end-game content? Because that's basically what it is, it's just a delay not even a challenging obstacle.
New World just came out. Wait till it's population takes a nose dive in a month or two. People are already complaining about mandatory grouping for main quest and how no one wants to group up and everyone busy grinding solo to lvl 60. Lol
I must also add playing New World with its terrible animation locked combat, terrible inventory and travelling system made me appreciate ESO even more. Don't be surprised if New World ends up with half of its servers empty in couple of months.
...its better and more fun than what we have here(pvp perspective)....there may be complaints, but are they more than all the pvp complaints in THIS game?
Different market....pve people may not like it, Eso is way better pve content wise(quests, lore, dungeons), but end game pvp, honestly, tell me what we have here?
Playing NW made me appreciate what we DONT have here....but as I always say, if you're having fun here, then that's a good thing. I'm not, and many others agree with me.
ESO was never a PVP focused game. New World is. So people who agree with you should atleast do some basic research in what game is trying to capture what kind of players.
Moreover, if you are playing New World you would know how bad PVP scaling is in the game and constant complaints about faction imbalance, terrible XP, and how majority of players don't want to flag for PvP
It's a complete [snip] show.
[edited for profanity bypass]
Based on what you've posted, I think you need to do more research.....I'm playing the game(always flagged, many open world fights, made friends after fights) and actively participating in the forums - I would say im doing some pretty good research.
It's all good though.....1 -
Vhozek✭✭✭✭✭
✭There has to be a way to make difficulty work for everyone. I feel bad for the players that are actually... idk really bad or not that good? I don't know which term to use cause I feel no brain activity going on in my head when I play and everything is too easy. I have also tried lowering my brain functions as I play and attack and move only when mobs do but I find that to be an incredibly impossible scenario that anybody plays that way. Not trying to be rude, I just don't see it being real and I can't comprehend it even putting myself in those shoes.
Perhaps mobs should deal % damage to players based on armor rating or hp?
I continue to believe enabling a PvP toggle that cripples PvP players vs monsters is the way to go while also making overland more dangerous for those with PvP on because other players are basically roaming bosses. Or just a HARD debuff toggle vs monster resistance. I don't think increasing mob HP is the way to go because now you're just dragging out the game and feels more like a tank trying to take on a boss. I say it this way because I often fall asleep on my tanks when I do dungeons. No joke.Edited by Vhozek on 8 October 2021 13:00𝗡𝗼𝘁 𝘀𝗼𝗿𝗿𝘆, 𝗺𝗼𝗱𝘀. 𝗙𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗕𝗶𝗿𝗱 𝘄𝗮𝘀 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝘆𝗶𝗻𝗴.3 -
tim77✭✭✭✭Huh. It's like déjà vu all over again.
[snip]
rofl I have a feeling this guy is really into that
Hallothiel wrote: »
on a side note... what is a "buffed door"?
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 8 October 2021 15:481 -
mickeyx✭✭✭✭I think we should sit back and take a second look at this game's overworld to make it more interesting and exciting. Bumping up the mob difficulty seems to be a good start. I really doubt many people would complain. The only issue is that it can't just be done as a lone update but rather paired up with a sort of re-launch or massive event advertising the game. What do you think? What else could be implemented to make leveling exciting and not just a delay to end-game content? Because that's basically what it is, it's just a delay not even a challenging obstacle.
New World just came out. Wait till it's population takes a nose dive in a month or two. People are already complaining about mandatory grouping for main quest and how no one wants to group up and everyone busy grinding solo to lvl 60. Lol
I must also add playing New World with its terrible animation locked combat, terrible inventory and travelling system made me appreciate ESO even more. Don't be surprised if New World ends up with half of its servers empty in couple of months.
...its better and more fun than what we have here(pvp perspective)....there may be complaints, but are they more than all the pvp complaints in THIS game?
Different market....pve people may not like it, Eso is way better pve content wise(quests, lore, dungeons), but end game pvp, honestly, tell me what we have here?
Playing NW made me appreciate what we DONT have here....but as I always say, if you're having fun here, then that's a good thing. I'm not, and many others agree with me.
ESO was never a PVP focused game. New World is. So people who agree with you should atleast do some basic research in what game is trying to capture what kind of players.
Moreover, if you are playing New World you would know how bad PVP scaling is in the game and constant complaints about faction imbalance, terrible XP, and how majority of players don't want to flag for PvP
It's a complete [snip] show.
[edited for profanity bypass]
Based on what you've posted, I think you need to do more research.....I'm playing the game(always flagged, many open world fights, made friends after fights) and actively participating in the forums - I would say im doing some pretty good research.
It's all good though.....
Your server experience isn't universal. On my server whole map is green. Covenant and Syndicate don't even bother to flag for PvP anymore. Why? Because there are no incentives for losing side to even bother. A game which wants to focus on PVP can't even do that one part properly.
Listen I get it it's a new game so everyone is excited. Once that newness wears off don't be surprised if this game has half of its server empty in few months. New world has more issues than Britney Spears0 -
Blood_again✭✭✭✭✭There has to be a way to make difficulty work for everyone. I feel bad for the players that are actually... idk really bad or not that good? I don't know which term to use cause I feel no brain activity going on in my head when I play and everything is too easy. I have also tried lowering my brain functions as I play and attack and move only when mobs do but I find that to be an incredibly impossible scenario that anybody plays that way. Not trying to be rude, I just don't see it being real and I can't comprehend it even putting myself in those shoes.
I'm glad you've seen that other play styles are really exist.
I hope there will be the day you'll get that it is all not really about "being bad", "not being good" or "brain functions". It is about various interests in game activities. It's about having fun in different ways. And all these ways and interests are equally valid.
I guess that day would make your world a lot wider.5 -
Vhozek✭✭✭✭✭
✭Blood_again wrote: »There has to be a way to make difficulty work for everyone. I feel bad for the players that are actually... idk really bad or not that good? I don't know which term to use cause I feel no brain activity going on in my head when I play and everything is too easy. I have also tried lowering my brain functions as I play and attack and move only when mobs do but I find that to be an incredibly impossible scenario that anybody plays that way. Not trying to be rude, I just don't see it being real and I can't comprehend it even putting myself in those shoes.
I'm glad you've seen that other play styles are really exist.
I hope there will be the day you'll get that it is all not really about "being bad", "not being good" or "brain functions". It is about various interests in game activities. It's about having fun in different ways. And all these ways and interests are equally valid.
I guess that day would make your world a lot wider.
Yeah, I understand that part. I play fighting games and often switch styles depending on how I wanna play and some people play like real [snip] sometimes but it is what it is. I get some people don't wanna spam skills because it's not realistic, some people wanna play runaway because they're a helpless citizen, and so on. What I don't get is when your average player is having issues with the game difficulty seeing as I've emulated the behavior and even exaggerate it but still manage to do well. I just don't think that part is real. I don't believe there's people dying to common mobs after playing for 2 hours even if they're new. I still remember my first day playing, I was really upset because it wasn't Skyrim online and it was really easy. I gave it a ton of chances and eventually approached differently until I no longer thought it had to be Skyrim online. I've done the same with the difficulty argument but I just do not see it and I do not believe the counter arguments. It's actually impossible in my brain for the scenario where it is currently too difficult to exist and I feel bad for anyone, whether it's 2 or a million people, that struggle with it because it is an objective fact that it needs to be increased in one way or another. Whatever the solution is, I hope it doesn't affect them. I just wanna play a TES game man and I'm burned out as hell of the others. The only thing that's left of me to do in them is turn them into adult games or anime worlds.
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 8 October 2021 15:50𝗡𝗼𝘁 𝘀𝗼𝗿𝗿𝘆, 𝗺𝗼𝗱𝘀. 𝗙𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗕𝗶𝗿𝗱 𝘄𝗮𝘀 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝘆𝗶𝗻𝗴.0 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Man too much to research in this thread but I've watched a few streamers playing it one who even hit level 60/max the other day. Is it just me or does the combat look a bit clunky? I'm not saying it is and the curve on difficulty seems to be there but what i heard mostly is the PvP will be the best...
It's clunky and with no animation cancelling it's just overall frustrating experience. Imagine healing other players when you are animation locked. New World is not sustainable long term in its current form. It's a very niche game made for players who can spend 10+ hours in front of a computer.
[snip]
I think animation should get its own thread because if we’re being honest ESO is often super clunky, weightless, and how it handles animation canceling is still an issue today
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 8 October 2021 16:461 -
Blood_again✭✭✭✭✭It's actually impossible in my brain for the scenario where it is currently too difficult to exist and I feel bad for anyone, whether it's 2 or a million people, that struggle with it because it is an objective fact that it needs to be increased in one way or another. Whatever the solution is, I hope it doesn't affect them. I just wanna play a TES game man and I'm burned out as hell of the others. The only thing that's left of me to do in them is turn them into adult games or anime worlds.
Overland may need rework just because it was unchanged for many years. The problem is that every activity adept wants it to be changed in different ways.
PvE fighting adepts want to see it with challenging battles, so they have a good battle everywhere. PvPers want to have a free PvP allover the Tamriel. Crafters would like to see some location layers without mobs. Roleplayers would like to have instanced places almost everywhere etc.
Every group is representative in community and can't be ignored. So ZoS have a really impossible task to find the average crossing of people's interests.
For the fighting overland problem people said about 2 main direction:
- veteran layer (I doubt it would be done that way because of price/profit ratio)
- gimping a character in one way or another (I don't like it, you don't like it, many people don't like it)
Any other way I see will break the game for other part of the community. So it is not the way.
That's the problem. I don't know how to solve it. I think if it have been some good and easy solution, it would've been implemented already.
Let's just hope ZoS will invent something.0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »But if 2/3rds weren't using it, that means 1/3rd did. They enjoyed it.
Rich didn't say 2/3 of the players weren't using it. He said 2/3 of the game wasn't being played. The 2/3 that made up Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold.
We don't know what percentage of players actually did do those but it must have been very low because Rich said no one did it and everyone hated it.
Saying no one was an exaggeration because some did, but it wasn't many. I actually completed these on one character but I certainly didn't enjoy it, which is why I never did it again.PCNA1 -
NagualV✭✭✭✭
I would say it takes getting used to, especially coming from eso. The combat rewards timing and aiming(theres no tab target or auto assist). There is skill involved, and I actually like it.
It sucks your map is all one color, however, it's only been one week, that may change.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 8 October 2021 16:450 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
At the end of the day it really comes down to the fact that many people prefer how the single player TES combat Felt over how the MMO does.
Which ZOS has been trying to imitate ever since. Maybe one day they could overhaul the character models to not look like action figures and barbies.
The problem is that it’s too late for ZOS to make eso “Online Skyrim” in many ways.
ESO is always going to have that mix of the old tab target bar system with the action combat of TES.
For example: Shield
Shield bashing in ESO does not work like it did in Skyrim. Meaning enemies don’t stagger unless the player is specifically blocking a heavy attack or interrupting a charge ability.
If you want enemies responsive to a bash animation then you have to use Reverberating Bash - a skill which does trigger enemies to react.
So abilities that were generally done by Left/Right click in TES have been implemented as abilities on a Bar in ESO.
Then there’s the fact that there is no ragdoll physics in the game.
Look - if you want “Skyrim 2.0 Online” like Fallout 76 is basically “Fallout 4.5 Online” - well it’s too late for that.
ZOS is trying but there are going to be things that just inherently prevent that.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 8 October 2021 16:490 -
trackdemon5512✭✭✭✭✭
✭trackdemon5512 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
I'm not saying to overhaul the old bosses because at this point that is unrealistic - but what I am saying is that the problem is almost entirely a Mechanics issue, not one of stats.
- and that your "solution" is in reality a Non-Solution, because it is no different than wearing bad gear, minimal skills, no cp none of which solved the problem of poorly designed mechanics. Just handicapping yourself does not solve the issue that people are complaining about.
It is different than handicapping yourself with gear because it allows you to push beyond just running naked would do. And yes it is a solution to this issue, games have done it to add additional challenge to things for years. That you personally wouldn't enjoy having to deal with existing mechanics doesn't change that this is a tried, true method of increasing difficulty and one with a LONG history in this franchise.
I don't view it your way at all. I don't need new mechs and don't find it reasonable to expect them to spend that much time on it when the vast majority of the playerbase doesn't want it. They have already made it clear that's not gonna happen.
Going to point at Pre- One Tamriel to show that the majority didn’t enjoy it.
Like what you’re proposing is no different than the very thing that others have said was bad for the game. Or from naked builds because it’s still a self imposed handicap.
It’s not that I wouldn’t enjoy the mechanics but rather the lack of mechanics.
And again I am not saying that ZOS should overhaul the entire games mechanics.
What I’m saying is that it doesn’t come down to stats and that going forward ZOS would have to handle things like the main story differently to make it enjoyable for a wider audience.
Furthermore ESO is not the single player games and works differently from say Skyrim.
One major difference being that enemies & player were of similar speed. It makes sense to just buff stats
BUT
ESO has very different gameplay from both players and enemies- you cannot expect the same solution to work especially when there is already evidence that it doesn’t.BONUS:
Can someone point to a real game, single player or multiplayer, where increased difficulty has different attacks from the lower difficulty? I’m not talking about MMORPGs. I mean games from other genres where this was programmed. I personally cannot think of any where increased difficulty isn’t just increased enemy damage and decreased player resistances.
ESO literally does this with Dungeon & Trial Bosses
Yes I know ESO does that with trial and dungeon bosses. What I’m looking for are other games that do so or apply it to an entire game.
What I’m seeing is (despite the claims of some here that adding a vet overland is easy) there are incredibly few instances of such actually being implemented. Most games go the route of increasing enemy damage output, decreasing player hardiness/vitality. None essentially actually program optional mechanics that might not be experienced. The ones that do don’t do it anywhere close to the extent that ESO does with normal and veteran instanced combat.
Making a vet overland would be a massive undertaking.
I agree which is why I’ve proposed other ideas, fair compromises, that I think are more realistic.
Like I’ve said in the past, we see a problem and want a solution. That doesn’t mean we know what that solution is, or that one side universally agrees on it, which is part of the point in having these discussions.
It’s necessary to look at ideas and consider not only their plausibility but also their effectiveness as well as their appeal.
Because there are things like power creep & balancing to consider. The fact that Overland is already set to CP160.
The fact that just making all enemies in a zone hit harder doesn’t make them fun as we’ve seen by evidence in Pre-One Tamriel.
I understand the “we see a problem, seek a solution” as well. What I have an issue here and with a number of forum posters is that:
1) A problem has been identified - harder difficulty for some is wanted on overland content
2) The developers agree that while this is wanted by some it’s not wanted by the vast majority
3) Solutions have been proposed. Either create a vet overland or a difficulty slider
4) The developers have said that neither is possible due to technical/financial limitations. Too hard to implement, too much to develop, and/or both not being utilized enough by the general population to be worthwhile
AND this is where it gets me
5) People here give up on searching for new solutions and keep advocating or suggesting that the dismissed ways can work. They need to be repeatedly told that the developers said no to those particular methods, outlined why, and then choose to willfully ignore that.
It’s great that you can propose other ideas. But other people need to learn that their opinion about a vet overland/difficulty slider is no longer an opinion. It’s wrong and it’s a lost argument. They need to move on and postulate new solutions.2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭trackdemon5512 wrote: »trackdemon5512 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
I'm not saying to overhaul the old bosses because at this point that is unrealistic - but what I am saying is that the problem is almost entirely a Mechanics issue, not one of stats.
- and that your "solution" is in reality a Non-Solution, because it is no different than wearing bad gear, minimal skills, no cp none of which solved the problem of poorly designed mechanics. Just handicapping yourself does not solve the issue that people are complaining about.
It is different than handicapping yourself with gear because it allows you to push beyond just running naked would do. And yes it is a solution to this issue, games have done it to add additional challenge to things for years. That you personally wouldn't enjoy having to deal with existing mechanics doesn't change that this is a tried, true method of increasing difficulty and one with a LONG history in this franchise.
I don't view it your way at all. I don't need new mechs and don't find it reasonable to expect them to spend that much time on it when the vast majority of the playerbase doesn't want it. They have already made it clear that's not gonna happen.
Going to point at Pre- One Tamriel to show that the majority didn’t enjoy it.
Like what you’re proposing is no different than the very thing that others have said was bad for the game. Or from naked builds because it’s still a self imposed handicap.
It’s not that I wouldn’t enjoy the mechanics but rather the lack of mechanics.
And again I am not saying that ZOS should overhaul the entire games mechanics.
What I’m saying is that it doesn’t come down to stats and that going forward ZOS would have to handle things like the main story differently to make it enjoyable for a wider audience.
Furthermore ESO is not the single player games and works differently from say Skyrim.
One major difference being that enemies & player were of similar speed. It makes sense to just buff stats
BUT
ESO has very different gameplay from both players and enemies- you cannot expect the same solution to work especially when there is already evidence that it doesn’t.BONUS:
Can someone point to a real game, single player or multiplayer, where increased difficulty has different attacks from the lower difficulty? I’m not talking about MMORPGs. I mean games from other genres where this was programmed. I personally cannot think of any where increased difficulty isn’t just increased enemy damage and decreased player resistances.
ESO literally does this with Dungeon & Trial Bosses
Yes I know ESO does that with trial and dungeon bosses. What I’m looking for are other games that do so or apply it to an entire game.
What I’m seeing is (despite the claims of some here that adding a vet overland is easy) there are incredibly few instances of such actually being implemented. Most games go the route of increasing enemy damage output, decreasing player hardiness/vitality. None essentially actually program optional mechanics that might not be experienced. The ones that do don’t do it anywhere close to the extent that ESO does with normal and veteran instanced combat.
Making a vet overland would be a massive undertaking.
I agree which is why I’ve proposed other ideas, fair compromises, that I think are more realistic.
Like I’ve said in the past, we see a problem and want a solution. That doesn’t mean we know what that solution is, or that one side universally agrees on it, which is part of the point in having these discussions.
It’s necessary to look at ideas and consider not only their plausibility but also their effectiveness as well as their appeal.
Because there are things like power creep & balancing to consider. The fact that Overland is already set to CP160.
The fact that just making all enemies in a zone hit harder doesn’t make them fun as we’ve seen by evidence in Pre-One Tamriel.
I understand the “we see a problem, seek a solution” as well. What I have an issue here and with a number of forum posters is that:
1) A problem has been identified - harder difficulty for some is wanted on overland content
2) The developers agree that while this is wanted by some it’s not wanted by the vast majority
3) Solutions have been proposed. Either create a vet overland or a difficulty slider
4) The developers have said that neither is possible due to technical/financial limitations. Too hard to implement, too much to develop, and/or both not being utilized enough by the general population to be worthwhile
AND this is where it gets me
5) People here give up on searching for new solutions and keep advocating or suggesting that the dismissed ways can work. They need to be repeatedly told that the developers said no to those particular methods, outlined why, and then choose to willfully ignore that.
It’s great that you can propose other ideas. But other people need to learn that their opinion about a vet overland/difficulty slider is no longer an opinion. It’s wrong and it’s a lost argument. They need to move on and postulate new solutions.
I get where you’re coming from which is why I have tried proposing other solutions. Players have often proposed one type of solution.
One side says “Vet Overland” the other says “Debuff Food” — Both would probably cause more problems than fix, or not fix at all.
My recommendation, in this case is to let this thread go. It’s gone on for a little too long than necessary, and it’s clear there needs to be a reset.
I would recommend picking up this conversation next week when things have cooled down.
Because either side aggressively telling each other “You’re Wrong“ isn’t going to go anywhere.0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would recommend picking up this conversation next week when things have cooled down.
Because either side aggressively telling each other “You’re Wrong“ isn’t going to go anywhere.
There have been numerous threads on this topic and nothing has changed. If anything the opposition has only become stronger with less supporting the idea.
I know it is a disappointment to some, but the majority doesn't want this, and it is just not feasible. Waiting a week isn't going to change that.Edited by SilverBride on 8 October 2021 18:02PCNA1 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings all,
After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.
Thank you for your understanding.0 -
Franchise408✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »I would recommend picking up this conversation next week when things have cooled down.
Because either side aggressively telling each other “You’re Wrong“ isn’t going to go anywhere.
There have been numerous threads on this topic and nothing has changed. If anything the opposition has only become stronger with less supporting the idea.
I know it is a disappointment to some, but the majority don't want this, and it is just not feasible. Waiting a week isn't going to change that.
It is plenty feasible.
The foundation of the game changed once already due to player feedback. Persistent games make changes all the time, even if devs do say something won't happen. These changes absolutely are feasible, and we will continue to speak out in favor of them for as long as it takes.2 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Franchise408 wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »There have been numerous threads on this topic and nothing has changed. If anything the opposition has only become stronger with less supporting the idea.
I know it is a disappointment to some, but the majority don't want this, and it is just not feasible. Waiting a week isn't going to change that.
It is plenty feasible.
The foundation of the game changed once already due to player feedback. Persistent games make changes all the time, even if devs do say something won't happen. These changes absolutely are feasible, and we will continue to speak out in favor of them for as long as it takes.
The foundation of this game changed once due very few playing 2/3 of the content. One Tamriel saved this game and it is doing better now than it ever has.Edited by SilverBride on 8 October 2021 17:53PCNA5 -
Blood_again✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »I would recommend picking up this conversation next week when things have cooled down.
Because either side aggressively telling each other “You’re Wrong“ isn’t going to go anywhere.
There have been numerous threads on this topic and nothing has changed. If anything the opposition has only become stronger with less supporting the idea.
I know it is a disappointment to some, but the majority don't want this, and it is just not feasible. Waiting a week isn't going to change that.
As I can see the main conflict happens when both sides talk about global overland buff for all.
Yes, majority don't want this globally, but don't mean if it won't affect their activity. I remember something like that happened with duels.
Minority who request the buff usually starts from "everybody wants it" but ends ready for compromise after ten pages of battle or so.
But really that compromise is suffocating. Acceptable buff variants which are stemming from it reminds me of dancing in the wardrobe.
Solution can't change mobs behavior, because it might be exploited against other players.
Solution can't change mob characteristic. Change the character's ones instead.
Solution can't instantiate overland mobs because it eats computing resources or affects other players.
So I see the gimping only within declared borders. It's pain.
Well, lets not wait for a week.
We can try to ask for creative gimping. Not by character stats only. But it will require development and balancing.
Bosses who are dangerous do oneshots, control, drains and things like that. The dangerous attacks are the key. But we don't have to change a mob behaviour. So we should change the effect of the same attacks on gimped character.
Let's say each 2nd heavy attack oneshots. Each 2nd magic damage tick drains resources. Each third light attack stuns or interrupts. Just a variant. It is a huge space for balancing and other ideas.
All this effects and counters works when you have "gimping fruit" debuff on you. So it is all implementable on buff mechanics. No changes in mobs.
It won't make a single mob deadly. But try it with stack of three or more. I hope it could work.
Disadvantages:
- in difference with simple stats gimping it will require development
- if implementation of it got bugs affecting usual, non-gimped player, it would be painful
At least it is a variant. Mmm?0 -
trackdemon5512✭✭✭✭✭
✭SilverBride wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »There have been numerous threads on this topic and nothing has changed. If anything the opposition has only become stronger with less supporting the idea.
I know it is a disappointment to some, but the majority don't want this, and it is just not feasible. Waiting a week isn't going to change that.
It is plenty feasible.
The foundation of the game changed once already due to player feedback. Persistent games make changes all the time, even if devs do say something won't happen. These changes absolutely are feasible, and we will continue to speak out in favor of them for as long as it takes.
The foundation of this game changed once due very few playing 2/3 of the content. One Tamriel saved this game and it is doing better now than it ever has.
Not only that, the foundation was changed when 2/3rd of the original player population was only about 4.5 million players.
With the growth to over 19 million registered accounts and content long designed to cater to generalized casual play since late 2016/early2017 it’s a statistical certainty that the vast majority of player that have since been attracted to the game are continuing due to the casual play and not the hardcore endgame.
Currently the number of players not in favor or indifferent to increased difficulty modes is like 90% or greater. From the developer standpoint it doesn’t matter if players are against or indifferent as both means that such a feature won’t be used.
And from a financial standpoint there is no reason to spend significant resources and time to cater to a very small segment that continues to shrink.
A live example of the developers doing so is the fact that there have been no significant changes to BGs by means of expansion in years. Why put money into something that statistical trends show is ever decreasing in popularity, despite the intense hardcore outcry on these very forums?2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »I would recommend picking up this conversation next week when things have cooled down.
Because either side aggressively telling each other “You’re Wrong“ isn’t going to go anywhere.
There have been numerous threads on this topic and nothing has changed. If anything the opposition has only become stronger with less supporting the idea.
I know it is a disappointment to some, but the majority doesn't want this, and it is just not feasible. Waiting a week isn't going to change that.
I’m saying I recommend wait a week for people to chill out before alternative ideas are proposed.
Not for some vague hope that people will change their minds.
Because whenever this topic comes up things start out chill and then things get heated up and then the front page blows up. And then there are numerous other threads popping about it and the mods have to cut in.
And people are overall irritated.
So yeah, I’m recommending we take a break because at this point there is too much thread for a discussion about possibly alternatives to “Vet Overland” that might address the issue
———————————————————
@Blood_again
The problem that is immediately going to come up his questions about incentive.
Sure, there are those who will do it for just the heck of it. But if we’re talking about adding some thing to overland that makes it harder then there needs to be a good enough justification for the developers to spend resources on it.
whenever they implement a new way to play the game, or a new activity, then they implement incentives to motivate players to participate. Lead Director himself said this.”Uh, it is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult.
There is a ton of work, and then as lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that.
Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you're not going to get anything out of it why do it, you know?
The satisfaction is there sure, but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time."
The most likely result is that almost no one would use it. To such a degree that it would be considered a useless feature.
At the end of the day you cannot have a discussion about changes to story or overland without discussing a reward system.
———————————————————
@trackdemon5512
ESO does not have 19 million active players. There are 19 million accounts which are registered - and have tried the game at some point.
So let’s not use the argument: “Well the other 19 million people think it’s fine”
If that was the case then the active players would account for more than 0.03% of 19 Mil (and that’s a generous estimate)
(Correction: 3% not 0.03%)
——————————————————
Anyways, taking my own advice ✌️Edited by Iccotak on 8 October 2021 20:021 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If that was the case then the active players would account for more than 0.03% of 19 Mil (and that’s a generous estimate)
You think there are only 6000 active players (generously rounding up)?1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
And that number would be split across 4 platforms too.Edited by spartaxoxo on 8 October 2021 19:351 -
Franchise408✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »There have been numerous threads on this topic and nothing has changed. If anything the opposition has only become stronger with less supporting the idea.
I know it is a disappointment to some, but the majority don't want this, and it is just not feasible. Waiting a week isn't going to change that.
It is plenty feasible.
The foundation of the game changed once already due to player feedback. Persistent games make changes all the time, even if devs do say something won't happen. These changes absolutely are feasible, and we will continue to speak out in favor of them for as long as it takes.
The foundation of this game changed once due very few playing 2/3 of the content. One Tamriel saved this game and it is doing better now than it ever has.
And as has been pointed out to you countless times, your take is revisionist history of what actually happened. I was around from beta and launch as well, and the game wasn't in bad shape because it was "hard", the game was in bad shape for a number of reasons. Among the biggest reasons why ESO was saved was because of dropping the mandatory subscription, combined with players no longer being restricted from each other due to alliances. NOT because it got easier.
Technically, it didn't even get "easier". Overland is still functionally the same as it has always been. Overland was never particularly tough or engaging. The issue with Craglorn isn't that it's more difficult. It's the fact that there is virtually 0 content there outside of scattered dailies. Mobs wise, I really enjoy the difficulty Craglorn provides, and I'd be happy enough to leave normal overland alone if there were added zones that had a higher difficulty like Craglorn and Wrothgar.
Us higher level players shouldn't have to just be stuck in our little corner of dungeons, trials, and Craglorn, while the rest of the game caters to people who don't want to be faced with any sort of challenge to overcome what so ever. 95% of the game already doesn't cater to us, all we're asking for is a sliver.3 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Oop my bad, I meant 3%, forgot to move the decimal point.
0.03 x 19,000,000 = 570,0000 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Franchise408 wrote: »And as has been pointed out to you countless times, your take is revisionist history of what actually happened. I was around from beta and launch as well, and the game wasn't in bad shape because it was "hard", the game was in bad shape for a number of reasons. Among the biggest reasons why ESO was saved was because of dropping the mandatory subscription, combined with players no longer being restricted from each other due to alliances. NOT because it got easier.
The events that led to One Tamriel were from early ESO, but are relevent enough today that Rich Lambert used them as examples in a Twitch stream from a month ago to explain why we do not have veteran overland, optional or otherwise.
I came back to ESO after One Tamriel because it got easier. I could finally enjoy the story without constantly struggling. And I have always subscribed, whether it was mandatory or not, so that was never a factor for me, or the many other subscribers who are still playing.PCNA1
This discussion has been closed.