800k people don't seem to mind difficult overworld

Vhozek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqPq2FBGkoo

marius_buys

Vhozek wrote: »

I think we should sit back and take a second look at this game's overworld to make it more interesting and exciting. Bumping up the mob difficulty seems to be a good start. I really doubt many people would complain. The only issue is that it can't just be done as a lone update but rather paired up with a sort of re-launch or massive event advertising the game. What do you think? What else could be implemented to make leveling exciting and not just a delay to end-game content? Because that's basically what it is, it's just a delay not even a challenging obstacle.

An option could be to have players choose to have their environment scale to their MMR level or not.
Personally I do not, some of us like the fact that were kind of OP in the Overworld.

Vhozek

marius_buys wrote: »

Listen here you undead ***, some of us do not need to be alpha male uber competitive proving everything all the time ok? There are chilled players in the game as well, in fact they probably vastly outnumber performance chasers, so can you just chillax about their over world, get yourself to a super sweaty BGs man.

Bro, I'm currently playing a new game where mobs are kicking my ass. It is as exciting as I imagined it would be if it would be applied here. It even has the same action combat ESO has. The issue here is that I enjoy The Elder Scrolls immensely but I guess I'll have to narrow out my preferences a bit more. I used to only play ESO and TES games because it was the only lore I needed to care about. I would only play LoL because it was the only PvP I needed to care about. Thanks to ESO, I have branched out and could drop it at any time given a different franchise hooks me in just as much and provides a more exciting gameplay.. Hey, it at least introduced me to MMOs. I hope TES games don't serve that purpose for open world RPGs. I guess we'll see with TES6.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

“Would it be an option just to give people the choice? It is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult. There is a TON of work and then as Lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you’re not going to get anything out of it then why do it? The satisfaction is there sure but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time.

This is what makes me see it as a definite "no". There is no "If this or this or this happens then maybe", but rather "players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time."

That's him discussing a incentive obstacle, not him saying that it will never be done. He is citing it as a problem he doesn't know how to resolve and saying why, and Vet Overland obviously isn't going to come without that obstacle being solved.

What incentive obstacle?

"There is a TON of work and then as Lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you’re not going to get anything out of it then why do it?"

That incentive obstacle. Let's just breakdown the entire thing.

"Uh, it is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult."

This means that is not a simple suggestion.


"There is a ton of work, and then as lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you're not going to get anything out of it why do it, you know? The satisfaction is there sure, but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time."

This discusses the two biggest hurdles for them to implement it. That it's a lot of work to do, and that they'd have to find incentives that didn't cause problems.

"So like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3 of the game was never played by players, so we changed it."

This is rejecting the idea at the time, both due to aforementioned reasons and due to the difficulties outlined in the response. They are very clearly saying no here. They are saying the previous "no" also applies to this response.

This is neither saying they are currently open to the idea (very clearly they are not) nor saying that they couldn't be open to it in the future.

They never say never. They also never say maybe.

They say it is "not at this time" because of lack of demand, amount of work, and incentivization issues, and prior failure of this kind of content.

Maya_Nur

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

You want solo hard content? Go solo a dungeon. Then solo it on vet. Then get every achievement in solo arenas. Then add to that challenge by finding 3 others and getting every vet achievement in dungeons/arenas. Then finish it off with every achievement for vet trials. And if you somehow do that, before a new DLC is released, we’ll then you’re in the 99.9999% of ESO players doing things the developers don’t expect the vast majority of players to do. And there is nothing else to do for ya except to tell you to nerf yourself.

It’s the everlasting god complex conundrum of RPGs.

Sorry, but I can't agree with you as your suggestion is more like a manipulation. The reason why people (me included) ask for more difficult overland because far more diverse then dungeons and trials (as for me most of them are mind numbingly repetetive and bosses are overpowered with health which makes them more boring then challenging).

Except Overland isn’t anywhere as diverse as dungeons, trials, and arenas. Seriously the content is just retreads of the same stuff over and over and over.

Dungeons and trials are where interesting mechanics are introduced and challenges come. With the DLC dungeons no two bosses are the same and they go through phases. That can be done because there is a limit to damage that can be taken. With overland that’s pointless because a group can just swarm a boss with 15 ppl and take em down.

How accomplished would any of you “I need my difficulty slider” players actually feel when just one person shows up to beat a boss? Now when 7 people show up? What’s the challenge? What will you ask for next? Private instances? This isn’t that game.

Okay, let's compare:
Feature — dungeons and trials / overland
Many quests — -/+
Large locations — -/+
Many activities — -/+
Uniqueness — +/- (And only for buyable DLCs and chapters)
Mechanics — +/-
Free to go anywhere — -/+ (Some trials allow this but quantity of it about 4)
Soloable — -/+ (some vanilla dungeons are solo friendly though)
Fast start — -/+ (Yeah, how fun to just wait until group is formed)

So...

Dungeons and trials: 2 points.
Overland: 6 points.

Mrtoobyy

I'd like for delves and public dungeons to atleast have a difficulty setting. They already have loading screens so make them instance based.
I would love to have some trouble "cave delving" killing characteristic bosses to get the specific drops only they provide.

Xebov

A difficult overland is not worth the efford and work needed to get it done.

There is a huge gap between players when it comes to dps and performance so you will not be able to implement a "one size fits all" solution that makes everyone happy. You would end up with ppl being unhappy because they are either placed beyond the end or between normal and hard. So to do it right you would need several options. But its not simply about implementing and testing it, you also need to make sure that it keeps working so you have to constantly maintain it.
You have to add a reason for players to choose a higher difficulty. Some like difficult stuff, but many players like to be rewarded for their time spend.
Even if you get all of the above done the Overland will just be empty. Its not like you see players massively doing stuff in Craiglorn and thats already a bit harder.

Lady_Galadhiel

Maya_Nur wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

You want solo hard content? Go solo a dungeon. Then solo it on vet. Then get every achievement in solo arenas. Then add to that challenge by finding 3 others and getting every vet achievement in dungeons/arenas. Then finish it off with every achievement for vet trials. And if you somehow do that, before a new DLC is released, we’ll then you’re in the 99.9999% of ESO players doing things the developers don’t expect the vast majority of players to do. And there is nothing else to do for ya except to tell you to nerf yourself.

It’s the everlasting god complex conundrum of RPGs.

Sorry, but I can't agree with you as your suggestion is more like a manipulation. The reason why people (me included) ask for more difficult overland because far more diverse then dungeons and trials (as for me most of them are mind numbingly repetetive and bosses are overpowered with health which makes them more boring then challenging).

So since all dungeon bosses,trial bosses and arena bosses are in your wording ''mind numblingy and overpowered with health what makes them boring'' I bet you have completed all trifectas the game has to offer?

Spoiler: Learning boss mechanics specially in HM requires time,effort,more time,good coordination,even more time and nerves and is in no meaning boring unless you do it for the 1000th time.

NagualV

kargen27 wrote: »

"PvP needs immediate rework"

"Patch notes barely has one page of fixes and it will take about 6 hours?"

"please add PvP only servers"

"Stop Complaining or just simply leave"

"The future of this game become questionable"

"Make the game harder!"

"Whats the point of weapon swap when it does not work?"

"Why Wars soo laggyy these days?"

"Bots are stealing the iron ore"

"Better give us something for this downtime 6 HOURS NOW"

"Surely you could find a better time to patch than Australian prime time?"

"Please add a mini-map"

"Better Communication is Needed"

These are all threads in that new games forums. Also some talk about hoping ESO gets the lag fixed so they can come back. Turns out the PvP over there isn't what people expected. The big battles are mostly invite only and are scheduled so no just popping in when your schedule permits and getting into an epic battle. You sign up for the war in advance and then you hope that the leader doesn't kick you to allow members from his own company to fight instead. If you are not in a large company and an elite member of that company you may never get to participate in what is suppose to be the main feature of the game.

As someone who actively participates in BOTH Forums (Eso/NW), I can tell you I've read ALL those threads.....

And you know what? It's the same [snip] you get in these forums lol....misinformation, biased opinions, lack of understanding of game mechanics....I find myself disagreeing/shaking my head on most of them.

So for me, it comes down to the game itself. I(and I'm not alone) am thoroughly enjoying open world flagged pvp. One minute im gathering resources, next BAM I'm in a fight. That makes a lot of people cringe, but that's something fun for me. Already made a lot of friends after open world fights.

I wont judge a game by its forums, lol, I'll do it based on whether I'm having fun. And I'm having a lot of fun because it offers something I like. Simple. If people are having fun in ESO, that's awesome!!! Great!!! As a pvp player, I personally am not, and am actually doing more pve now since the ever present chance of a pvp fight exists in the new game.

One other quick note...I really like the scheduled war times format!!! For me, allows more planning.

[edited for profanity bypass]

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They never say never. They also never say maybe.

They say it is "not at this time" because of lack of demand, amount of work, and incentivization issues, and prior failure of this kind of content.

Rich did not say "not at this time". He did not give any indication that this was being looked at as a future possibility.

NagualV

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

"PvP needs immediate rework"

"Patch notes barely has one page of fixes and it will take about 6 hours?"

"please add PvP only servers"

"Stop Complaining or just simply leave"

"The future of this game become questionable"

"Make the game harder!"

"Whats the point of weapon swap when it does not work?"

"Why Wars soo laggyy these days?"

"Bots are stealing the iron ore"

"Better give us something for this downtime 6 HOURS NOW"

"Surely you could find a better time to patch than Australian prime time?"

"Please add a mini-map"

"Better Communication is Needed"

These are all threads in that new games forums. Also some talk about hoping ESO gets the lag fixed so they can come back. Turns out the PvP over there isn't what people expected. The big battles are mostly invite only and are scheduled so no just popping in when your schedule permits and getting into an epic battle. You sign up for the war in advance and then you hope that the leader doesn't kick you to allow members from his own company to fight instead. If you are not in a large company and an elite member of that company you may never get to participate in what is suppose to be the main feature of the game.

Last week, immediately after the game for which this forum topic is about went live, an individual posted about how said game’s PVP was the future and the ESO would be wise to emulate it. I won’t link to that thread as the topic was met with immediate backlash and the OP asked for it to be closed.

I will however quote one of their suggestions advocating for open world PVP like said game:

“1.) Get rid of the One Tamriel scheme and make it so players have to commit to a faction and if you come to enemy territory you will be attacked by faction players and guards. What this means is if you are a member of a rival faction you can not own trading hubs or houses in enemy territory.”

Flash forward to today and this article on Kotaku:

https://kotaku.com/new-world-patch-adds-important-message-dont-be-a-***-1847809499

Of note I’ll pick out this paragraph:

“ When you split a server’s population into three factions and set them loose to compete over an island nation, hostility spreads like weeds. When two factions are fighting each other, global chat is filled with an amusing yet depressing amount of ill will. Names are called, threats are made. I’ve seen players following other players about town, harassing them in local area chat. Before I disabled local voice chat, which is a horrible feature in a game where hostile factions share the same spaces, I got to hear what sounded like a teen calling out members of The Syndicate using homophobic slurs.”

Geez if only they saw and learned from what ESO with its Three Faction War and other games gleaned from 8 years of live play and data.

How this applies to threads like these:

The developers of ESO have been at this for decades. Many with MMORPG experience from games well before ESO was released. Yes, they go through a trial and error process and learn what works and what doesn’t. But they have a history and the accompanying data to back up the vast majority of their actions.

Matt Firor has openly welcomed competing MMORPGs into the space as they inspire innovation. But at the same you can’t immediately point to something new and say it works and that’s how everything else, everywhere else should be.

Anyone from ESO, WOW, and other games could tell you that you foster a hostile environment with fully open world PVP. And the developers of ESO and other games can tell you that scalable difficulty levels for individuals just do not work in large group environments. The data is there.

I guess my point is that many of us here echo what the developers have said, understand the data, and encourage y’all to really observe, review, analyze, and then posit about what this game needs before jumping on hype bandwagons and asking to throw a well established game into chaos.

I agree with what you're saying....I'll add this though,

That game offers me more of what I like and less of what I dislike(I personally have had great experiences playing, but that's just me and I realize that), and in my view i would love to do my part to further that very innovation that Matt Firor spoke about.

If i had to pick a game as a baseline, and help it develop(pvp perspective), it just wouldnt be this one anymore.

Iccotak

Every time this topic comes up there’s always some level of confusion and miscommunication being flown around so let’s clear some things up.

#1. For the most part, Players have NOT asked for the following
- ❌ Overland to be as hard as Vet Endgame
- ❌ Another Craglorn
- ❌ Return Cadwell’s Silver & Gold

I have read through dozens upon dozens of these threads on various sites - and when it comes to this topic, almost no one is asking for those things for these reasons.

- Overland doesn’t need to be vet hard mode difficult, it just lacks interesting combat and becomes stale really fast.

- Craglorn forced players into groups for nearly everything.

- Cadwell’s S & G buffed enemy stats but they were still boring to fight, it just took longer and was more tedious.

(a player de-buff would have the same results, which is why people have said it’s Not a good idea, so…. ❌)

#2. So what are they asking for then?
There are really two key things that people have been asking for.

A. ✅ make questing more fun by including more engaging gameplay throughout the zone that is not exclusive to isolated areas / activities.

B. ✅ for Story Bosses, the big bads that ZOS hypes up, to be Fun and not major disappointments

People have proposed various solutions but those are the two core issues at the root of the topic.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

Important word to note “Engaging”, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s hard but that there is something happening in the gameplay that captures the players interest and wants to pay attention to what is going on.

It is a shame that interesting mechanics are exclusive to group and/or endgame content. It would be swell if just some of the general enemies were more interesting / fun to fight.

Let's face it; Players often avoid mobs like the plague because it feels like a chore, an annoyance. Which is why we see many people say it was a good thing that Blackwood is less populated than previous zones.
Personally I don't think it would be a good idea to cater to those who've stated that they'd like all mobs removed for sake of convenience. (I've seen that float around)

Quests are not only a player's first impression of ESO but also make up the majority of their leveling journey and the overall game experience. This is the case for the average player.

If overland/questing is going to take up so much time then the combat in that time should be fun to do.

Is it any wonder why there are constant discussions about harder overland/questing?

When mobs which account for over 95% of the encounters are so thoroughly repetitive and boring?

———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Side Note:

I am not going to get into animations right now because that is a whole topic of its own BUT keep in mind that combat animation and how bad it can feel at times is one of the most common reasons I see people drop the game or avoid mobs in general.

———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

Who cares about Gameplay? It’s all about the Story and Lore.

Generally speaking: Gameplay ≥ Story/Lore

Especially for MMOs.

Good story & lore are awesome BUT -
You will find that many people don’t get invested in the story, or lore, if the gameplay is lacking. Especially when the “Story Experience” is mainly centered around killing things.

Skyrim has great lore but it's gameplay was the key to its huge success.
WoW not only had the IP but it was a huge gameplay success for MMOs
You need good gameplay.

ESO got a second wind because they improved the gameplay experience, not because of the “Stellar Writing”.
It was a great move but it could use some fine tuning. imo.

Elder Scrolls Online uses an action rpg system with a heavy focus on combat and character builds. It is NOT a point & click adventure or visual novel, if it was - well there are much better games in that genre.

If you make that combat gameplay irrelevant or boring for the majority of the questing experience (which is the majority of the experience for the average player) then people are very unlikely to be engaged in the quest let alone the lore.

Poor gameplay can actually dragon the story down. It ruins immersion or any investment the player might have had.

Engaging Gameplay makes people engaged in the World & Story.

———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

I had a recent idea that I think is overall a more reasonable and realistic solution / compromise to this issue - but I am going to wait for things to cool down first and take the time to work on it before sharing it.

END NOTE
I hope that this clears up some of the misunderstanding and/or miscommunication I have been seeing on this and other threads.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

Elsonso

.

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They never say never. They also never say maybe.

They say it is "not at this time" because of lack of demand, amount of work, and incentivization issues, and prior failure of this kind of content.

Rich did not say "not at this time". He did not give any indication that this was being looked at as a future possibility.

To be fair, there is always an implied "never say never" in whatever he says. Even for the thing where he said not as long as he has any say in it, there is an implied "never say never". That does not mean the answer isn't "no", for all intents and purposes.

On the day that it is announced that development and bug fixes for ESO are permanently suspended, someone will come forward and ask if the game can be sold to someone who will add an optional veteran overland slider.

Franchise408

With so much resistance to the idea of any semblance of difficulty or challenge in overland what-so-ever, and the insistence that difficulty has 0 place in overland, it is a wonder how MMO's like EverQuest managed to survive and thrive as long as they did...

Sylvermynx

I'm already having fun and engaged with overland and questing the way it is now. If there's a totally OPTIONAL way to give you guys what you want, fine. Otherwise I'm not interested, because your "fun and engaging" extra stuff with harder bosses and overland mechanics is NOT my idea of fun and engaging.

Maya_Nur

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

You want solo hard content? Go solo a dungeon. Then solo it on vet. Then get every achievement in solo arenas. Then add to that challenge by finding 3 others and getting every vet achievement in dungeons/arenas. Then finish it off with every achievement for vet trials. And if you somehow do that, before a new DLC is released, we’ll then you’re in the 99.9999% of ESO players doing things the developers don’t expect the vast majority of players to do. And there is nothing else to do for ya except to tell you to nerf yourself.

It’s the everlasting god complex conundrum of RPGs.

Sorry, but I can't agree with you as your suggestion is more like a manipulation. The reason why people (me included) ask for more difficult overland because far more diverse then dungeons and trials (as for me most of them are mind numbingly repetetive and bosses are overpowered with health which makes them more boring then challenging).

So since all dungeon bosses,trial bosses and arena bosses are in your wording ''mind numblingy and overpowered with health what makes them boring'' I bet you have completed all trifectas the game has to offer?

Spoiler: Learning boss mechanics specially in HM requires time,effort,more time,good coordination,even more time and nerves and is in no meaning boring unless you do it for the 1000th time.

Oh my... No, I'm just saying that 25m health is NOT hard, it is stuffy and unrealistic. By the way, it is a group content and I don't like it, no offence friend I prefer solo, and even not doing a rotation (just lazy) I did not experience any resistance in Craglorn's WB or dungeons

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They never say never. They also never say maybe.

They say it is "not at this time" because of lack of demand, amount of work, and incentivization issues, and prior failure of this kind of content.

Rich did not say "not at this time". He did not give any indication that this was being looked at as a future possibility.

He didn't say he wasn't either, the future was left open-ended and uncommented on, which is an implied "at this time" as that is the position that assumes no position on something not stated. The dev team has a "never say never" attitude towards many changes.

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

Every time this topic comes up there’s always some level of confusion and miscommunication being flown around so let’s clear some things up.

#1. For the most part, Players have NOT asked for the following
- ❌ Overland to be as hard as Vet Endgame
- ❌ Another Craglorn
- ❌ Return Cadwell’s Silver & Gold

#2. So what are they asking for then?
There are really two key things that people have been asking for.

A. ✅ make questing more fun by including more engaging gameplay throughout the zone that is not exclusive to isolated areas / activities.

B. ✅ for Story Bosses, the big bads that ZOS hypes up, to be Fun and not major disappointments

People have proposed various solutions but those are the two core issues at the root of the topic.

Most of us in opposition to veteran overland do understand what you are asking for. We just feel it's a very bad idea, optional or otherwise, and don't want the game many of us still love to be destroyed...especially considering that the huge majority of players don't want this. (According to Rich in his stream)

The one thing I see as a possibility is optional hard mode for the story bosses. I don't know how they could go about this, maybe a stronger boss with more mechanics, or maybe it would just debuff the player, but this is a much more reasonable request than reintroducing something that few want and was the cause of the game failing before.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Every time this topic comes up there’s always some level of confusion and miscommunication being flown around so let’s clear some things up.

#1. For the most part, Players have NOT asked for the following
- ❌ Overland to be as hard as Vet Endgame
- ❌ Another Craglorn
- ❌ Return Cadwell’s Silver & Gold

#2. So what are they asking for then?
There are really two key things that people have been asking for.

A. ✅ make questing more fun by including more engaging gameplay throughout the zone that is not exclusive to isolated areas / activities.

B. ✅ for Story Bosses, the big bads that ZOS hypes up, to be Fun and not major disappointments

People have proposed various solutions but those are the two core issues at the root of the topic.

Most of us in opposition to veteran overland do understand what you are asking for. We just feel it's a very bad idea, optional or otherwise, and don't want the game many of us still love to be destroyed...especially considering that the huge majority of players don't want this. (According to Rich in his stream)

The one thing I see as a possibility is optional hard mode for the story bosses. I don't know how they could go about this, maybe a stronger boss with more mechanics, or maybe it would just debuff the player, but this is a much more reasonable request than reintroducing something that few want and was the cause of the game failing before.

They should just add challenge banners to the story bosses and give debuff food for people that greatly alters stats. Both of these things would have little impact on anyone but the player wanting the challenge. Story bosses are already private instances and debuff food has zero impact on anything anyone else is doing.

Iccotak

SilverBride wrote: »

Most of us in opposition to veteran overland do understand what you are asking for. We just feel it's a very bad idea, optional or otherwise, and don't want the game many of us still love to be destroyed...especially considering that the huge majority of players don't want this. (According to Rich in his stream)

Correction; the majority don't want the things I marked in red. Which many of us - if not most - have also said we don't want either.

What is marked in green is much different than what is marked in red.
That is the confusion that I see happening - and that goes for both sides btw.

What those people want it is clear - but what they often propose or wish for does not solve/address that issue.

point being - people don't want what caused the game to fail to come back. Almost none of us are asking for that.

SilverBride wrote: »

The one thing I see as a possibility is optional hard mode for the story bosses. I don't know how they could go about this, maybe a stronger boss with more mechanics, or maybe it would just debuff the player, but this is a much more reasonable request than reintroducing something that few want and was the cause of the game failing before.

Well I'm glad we have some common ground - like I said I am currently writing up an idea for that but I am going to wait week or so before posting it. Give the forums time to calm down.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Every time this topic comes up there’s always some level of confusion and miscommunication being flown around so let’s clear some things up.

#1. For the most part, Players have NOT asked for the following
- ❌ Overland to be as hard as Vet Endgame
- ❌ Another Craglorn
- ❌ Return Cadwell’s Silver & Gold

#2. So what are they asking for then?
There are really two key things that people have been asking for.

A. ✅ make questing more fun by including more engaging gameplay throughout the zone that is not exclusive to isolated areas / activities.

B. ✅ for Story Bosses, the big bads that ZOS hypes up, to be Fun and not major disappointments

People have proposed various solutions but those are the two core issues at the root of the topic.

Most of us in opposition to veteran overland do understand what you are asking for. We just feel it's a very bad idea, optional or otherwise, and don't want the game many of us still love to be destroyed...especially considering that the huge majority of players don't want this. (According to Rich in his stream)

The one thing I see as a possibility is optional hard mode for the story bosses. I don't know how they could go about this, maybe a stronger boss with more mechanics, or maybe it would just debuff the player, but this is a much more reasonable request than reintroducing something that few want and was the cause of the game failing before.

They should just add challenge banners to the story bosses and give debuff food for people that greatly alters stats. Both of these things would have little impact on anyone but the player wanting the challenge. Story bosses are already private instances and debuff food has zero impact on anything anyone else is doing.

Did you not read what I wrote? Debuff food is no different than just buffing enemy stats - it's no better than the days of Cadwell's S&G.
The problem is mechanics - not stats

Take Mulaamnir for example; without a doubt one of the worst fights ever. Slow, minimal animations & mechanics, did nothing interesting, overall very anti-climatic.

Video

https://youtu.be/0PiRwePwYe8

That was the case for every boss in “Season of the Dragon”.

All a Stat Buff / Player de-buff would do is make the fight last longer and be more tedious. I know this because I did those fights with poor set ups.
Mechanics ≥ Stats

spartaxoxo

Iccotak wrote: »

Did you not read what I wrote? Debuff food is no different than just buffing enemy stats - it's no better than the days of Cadwell's S&G.
The problem is mechanics - not stats

Yes. And I proposed a more realistic solution that met the criteria that Rich was worried about. They aren't going to overhaul that many game mechanics, it's not a good or realistic use of dev time.

But there's mechanics you literally never see or have to respect based on pretty average specs that can become meaningful if the debuff is strong enough.

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Did you not read what I wrote? Debuff food is no different than just buffing enemy stats - it's no better than the days of Cadwell's S&G.
The problem is mechanics - not stats

Yes. And I proposed a more realistic solution that met the criteria that Rich was worried about.

I'm not saying to overhaul the old bosses because at this point that is unrealistic - but what I am saying is that the problem is almost entirely a Mechanics issue, not one of stats.

- and that your "solution" is in reality a Non-Solution, because it is no different than wearing bad gear, minimal skills, no cp none of which solved the problem of poorly designed mechanics. Just handicapping yourself does not solve the issue that people are complaining about.

Maya_Nur

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Every time this topic comes up there’s always some level of confusion and miscommunication being flown around so let’s clear some things up.

#1. For the most part, Players have NOT asked for the following
- ❌ Overland to be as hard as Vet Endgame
- ❌ Another Craglorn
- ❌ Return Cadwell’s Silver & Gold

#2. So what are they asking for then?
There are really two key things that people have been asking for.

A. ✅ make questing more fun by including more engaging gameplay throughout the zone that is not exclusive to isolated areas / activities.

B. ✅ for Story Bosses, the big bads that ZOS hypes up, to be Fun and not major disappointments

People have proposed various solutions but those are the two core issues at the root of the topic.

Most of us in opposition to veteran overland do understand what you are asking for. We just feel it's a very bad idea, optional or otherwise, and don't want the game many of us still love to be destroyed...especially considering that the huge majority of players don't want this. (According to Rich in his stream)

The one thing I see as a possibility is optional hard mode for the story bosses. I don't know how they could go about this, maybe a stronger boss with more mechanics, or maybe it would just debuff the player, but this is a much more reasonable request than reintroducing something that few want and was the cause of the game failing before.

Reminds me of some historical figures rhetoric: "We understand you want this and that, but we don't want our country to be destroyed by our opposition..."

Lady_Galadhiel

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

You want solo hard content? Go solo a dungeon. Then solo it on vet. Then get every achievement in solo arenas. Then add to that challenge by finding 3 others and getting every vet achievement in dungeons/arenas. Then finish it off with every achievement for vet trials. And if you somehow do that, before a new DLC is released, we’ll then you’re in the 99.9999% of ESO players doing things the developers don’t expect the vast majority of players to do. And there is nothing else to do for ya except to tell you to nerf yourself.

It’s the everlasting god complex conundrum of RPGs.

Sorry, but I can't agree with you as your suggestion is more like a manipulation. The reason why people (me included) ask for more difficult overland because far more diverse then dungeons and trials (as for me most of them are mind numbingly repetetive and bosses are overpowered with health which makes them more boring then challenging).

So since all dungeon bosses,trial bosses and arena bosses are in your wording ''mind numblingy and overpowered with health what makes them boring'' I bet you have completed all trifectas the game has to offer?

Spoiler: Learning boss mechanics specially in HM requires time,effort,more time,good coordination,even more time and nerves and is in no meaning boring unless you do it for the 1000th time.

Oh my... No, I'm just saying that 25m health is NOT hard, it is stuffy and unrealistic. By the way, it is a group content and I don't like it, no offence friend I prefer solo, and even not doing a rotation (just lazy) I did not experience any resistance in Craglorn's WB or dungeons

So you have trifecta vVH? Just asking as its a solo arena.

Maya_Nur

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

You want solo hard content? Go solo a dungeon. Then solo it on vet. Then get every achievement in solo arenas. Then add to that challenge by finding 3 others and getting every vet achievement in dungeons/arenas. Then finish it off with every achievement for vet trials. And if you somehow do that, before a new DLC is released, we’ll then you’re in the 99.9999% of ESO players doing things the developers don’t expect the vast majority of players to do. And there is nothing else to do for ya except to tell you to nerf yourself.

It’s the everlasting god complex conundrum of RPGs.

Sorry, but I can't agree with you as your suggestion is more like a manipulation. The reason why people (me included) ask for more difficult overland because far more diverse then dungeons and trials (as for me most of them are mind numbingly repetetive and bosses are overpowered with health which makes them more boring then challenging).

So since all dungeon bosses,trial bosses and arena bosses are in your wording ''mind numblingy and overpowered with health what makes them boring'' I bet you have completed all trifectas the game has to offer?

Spoiler: Learning boss mechanics specially in HM requires time,effort,more time,good coordination,even more time and nerves and is in no meaning boring unless you do it for the 1000th time.

Oh my... No, I'm just saying that 25m health is NOT hard, it is stuffy and unrealistic. By the way, it is a group content and I don't like it, no offence friend I prefer solo, and even not doing a rotation (just lazy) I did not experience any resistance in Craglorn's WB or dungeons

So you have trifecta vVH? Just asking as its a solo arena.

No, I ran it once on vet, saw the story and I'm done. That's why I prefer open locations. But you're hinting at I'm not tryhard enough, aren't you?))) I know, it's every time the same))) "Go and get every achievement and only then you allowed to ask for something!" Hehe... Classic)))

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Did you not read what I wrote? Debuff food is no different than just buffing enemy stats - it's no better than the days of Cadwell's S&G.
The problem is mechanics - not stats

Yes. And I proposed a more realistic solution that met the criteria that Rich was worried about. They aren't going to overhaul that many game mechanics, it's not a good or realistic use of dev time.

But there's mechanics you literally never see or have to respect based on pretty average specs that can become meaningful if the debuff is strong enough.

no you don't have to respect it.

I remember it - the gameplay sucked because the boss mechanics were just bare minimum and uninteresting
I also remember general mobs back in Pre-OneTam - buffing them didn't make them more fun. They still used the same boring mechanics, overall not interesting.

and to be clear I am not entirely saying to overhaul the mechanics of all old bosses and current NPCs.

but let's not pretend that stats would fix the issue when we can point to Pre-OneTam to show that is not the case.

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

...but let's not pretend that stats would fix the issue when we can point to Pre-OneTam to show that is not the case.

I don't agree that this is an issue that needs fixed. There are always going to be some players that want this, and some players that want that, but something that only a select minority wants is not an issue that needs fixed.

As far as optional quest boss difficulty, that is a separate issue that should be looked at on its own merits and not tied to overland in general.

MrGhosty

If the difficulty toggle existed and had no change to rewards, I would have no issue with it being added. As others have said though, it's not about making the mobs damage sponges, they would need to be completely reworked with more advanced mechanics to make a challenging overland fun and I don't see that happening.

What I would support would be instanced quests being made repeatable with achievements and rewards akin to the Vet Dungeon and Trial options and then have them be difficult encounters. Normal mode as it is now to allow people who don't want to hit that wall to progress as they would like, with hard and vet difficulties that require some work to get through solo.

Solo arenas or doing dungeons solo is about all there is available for solo players who want to really challenge themselves in the game at the moment. Solo arenas can be fun, but with only two in the game that content is going to get stale pretty quickly. If the instanced story beats of every chapter and maybe the core vanilla story/mages/fighters guild had repeatable content baked into them you could spread the challenge out or at the very least have a long checklist of harder content to overcome.

I played another mmo that had repeatable story quests and it was pretty fun to play through once for the story to unlock the harder modes and achievements. Once unlocked you then had a list of achievements to complete the set and unlock a larger cool reward indicative of the effort spent. Something like this takes nothing away from players who prefer the status quo, feels like it would be less effort than completely overhauling the whole game's overland zones, and would give players who wanted it more content to do.

WhyMustItBe

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

It’s like applying for a job and then getting the response “We’ve decided to go with other applicants at this time.” and not understanding or accepting that that means “No”.

No, it is nothing like that, because that statement literally means no. There is no other interpretation.

Contrast that with "it would be difficult." You are assuming that means no too. But that DOES have other interpretations. Like has been repeatedly pointed out and conveniently ignored, it could mean that it won't happen soon, or they would need to do more research to determine if people not doing the old veteran content was due to other factors in combination, like not wanting to play other faction's content (for loyalty reasons) as some have said, and so perhaps there is greater demand than they originally assumed.

Also, it has been YEARS since the One Tamriel change, and population interests change over time (with power creep, experience, etc.). Especially with new games with more challenging content coming out and snatching away long term players. Adding a veteran mode toggle would be a simple way to keep more of that population onboard and engaged, and if it was really such a minority, it wouldn't impact shard population in any perceptible way. They could also make non-hostile areas like cities difficulty neutral so EVERYONE would still shard in together there.

To me, it is NOT adding such OPTIONS to retain players that would harm the game.

What you are doing is more like asking "are we there yet" and the driver answering "soon," and you then proceed to shout over and over "we're going to be late, we're going to be late!" and any time someone said "dude, 'soon' does not necessarily mean 'late'" you tear into them about how they are wrong and the driver said so and there is no other interpretation of the word soon than yours and we are all just conspiring to destroy the road trip.

You aren't even arguing reasons why it would be a bad idea. When people attempt to engage you in actual meaningful discussion, like asking how if the number who want veteran overland is really so low could it possibly affect shard populations as naysayers have been claiming, you just ignore it completely and go back to repeating "you're wrong, the driver said."

Some people are just trying to discuss ideas on a public forum. You are not a dev for this game and have no say in what happens.

kargen27

"I hope that this clears up some of the misunderstanding and/or miscommunication I have been seeing on this and other threads."

You are assuming people disagreeing with you are confused or don't understand what is being asked for. You say people are asking for the green and that may be true. It sounds good until we start getting to details. Details is where it falls apart. A separate instance in overland would not be good for the game. Different rewards for different levels of difficulty would not be a good idea. The time needed to rework mechanics to make fights more compelling would be a poor investment given the likely returns.
I would like to see an option to make the boss fights that are solo instanced harder but unfortunately that could only be more health and hit harder at this point because again not worth the time to go in and redo mechanics for something that would be utilized by so few compared to overall population.
We all would like to see what you listed in the green to happen. Many of us realize why it isn't going to happen in existing overland zones.
The problem with your green ideas is they are general statements that garner support. Bringing in real world for a moment as example. Four years ago there was a poll and one question asked "would you like to see border reform". It was an overwhelming yes. Here is where it got fun. One side used the poll to say 85% support a wall and one side used the poll to say 85% support amnesty. The poll said neither. It simply said people want change. It was a bad poll.
Back to the game. If ZoS announced the chance of getting an Apex mount from a crown crate was going to increase to 3% everyone would say great. Then if they said to make up for a potential loss of revenue we are going to go back to a subscription base game all of a sudden people that were okay with that 3% no longer are.

That is where your green ideas are. They are good on their own but when we start talking about how to do it so far there has not been a good idea.