Cyrodil is trashed!

martinhpb16_ESO

The amount of cheap deaths I had from DC last-night was ridiculous, no skill involved, no combat even, just aoe trash proc, interrupting decent play.

Worst I saw was on players taking a flag inside a keep whilst a single player stood on the floor above, effectively bombing the flag takers by standing a whole floor above them and DC pooping out its trash!

doesurmindglow

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Always about ballgroups. This thread was nothing to do with ballgroups. You guys just love to complain about them. ZoS doesn’t need to “stop ballgroups”. In their latest post about update 32 they reiterated “play how you want”. Ballgroups are not griefing anyone and nothing they do is against terms of service or unhealthy for pvp. It is by players own choice that they get farmed. No one is forcing you to stand up at the keep and run into the group just to die over and over and over.

I don't have a problem with "ball groups." I don't care if they use the sets. I organize a ball group and the sets have been a huge asset for us. Mostly because "ball groups" are not actually negatively effected by set bonuses that scale with targets hit -- in the vast majority of cases, "ball groups" are actually the smaller force.

My issue is rather with the idea we can "address" ball groups by introducing overpowered and annoying set bonuses into the game. This was the stated goal of the sets, and of many people on the forums applauding the sets at the time they were being introduced. I don't believe "ball groups," "faction stacking," "large groups," or "zergs" can be addressed this way, because all of the above can and will simply use the sets also, and there's really no way to prevent that.

Rather I'd like to see them look at an approach that promotes a) an easier time finding an organized group that might realistically counter a "ball group," b) hard choices about server resources and capacity to support coordinated group gameplay, and c) ways to end (or diminish the perceived benefits of) engaging in stalemated fights, including potentially limitations on the ability to resurrect. But regardless of the actual "solution," trying to "end ball groups" or "address zergs" or whatever with an overtuned set bonus is not an effective approach, and it creates new and serious problems in the process.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you wanna introduce a mechanic to make it easier to fight ball groups and zergs it has to be a mechanic they can't or won't abuse themselves.

Easy. All AoE Procs will now damage your teammates.

I know this has been mentioned before, and people say any friendly fire mechanics will be abused by trolls. Probably true, but it's a certain fix to VD ballgroups.

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you wanna introduce a mechanic to make it easier to fight ball groups and zergs it has to be a mechanic they can't or won't abuse themselves.

Easy. All AoE Procs will now damage your teammates.

I know this has been mentioned before, and people say any friendly fire mechanics will be abused by trolls. Probably true, but it's a certain fix to VD ballgroups.

Oh yes. I can't wait for alliances to send buddies over to wipe the opposition with friendly fire.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you wanna introduce a mechanic to make it easier to fight ball groups and zergs it has to be a mechanic they can't or won't abuse themselves.

Easy. All AoE Procs will now damage your teammates.

I know this has been mentioned before, and people say any friendly fire mechanics will be abused by trolls. Probably true, but it's a certain fix to VD ballgroups.

Oh yes. I can't wait for alliances to send buddies over to wipe the opposition with friendly fire.

Right, people should be alliance locked, permanently. Not campaigns, not accounts - people.

doesurmindglow

Not really a solution, but more importantly, won't ever happen. I do think it's worth exploring solutions that are within the realm of reality, and limits on resurrection or SOME kind of diminishing returns on "farming" or stalemated fights might be among them.

The issue isn't that there are coordinated groups; that's honestly fine, expected, and unavoidable. The issue is rather that the server isn't able to handle the level of traffic that game mechanics incentivize, and there is no counter-incentive to reduce it that is actually effective. "Set bonuses" are not the appropriate place to find such a counter-incentive. But those are not the only mechanic at developers' disposal.

rbfrgsp

Remove AP from player kills and award them only for campaign goals (capture keeps, scrolls, completing missions, etc) might work by disincentivising directionless marauding group play. It would probably work better than any in-game solution but it would be a pretty sad change to see happen.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

vgastel wrote: »

Something is clearly not working as intended...

- New sets are supposed to split up ball groups, but rather many ballgroups use them to stack the pugs

- Lag in the last three days (PC EU GH) has been the worst I have seen since a long time. Might be related to the fact that people are constantly roll dodging out of the ever present dark convergence AOEs.

- Two of the new sets are so OP and so easy to use that Cyro is less and less about how skilled one is as a player. Even my neighbors cat is a good pvper with dark convergence 😿.

To be fair, your neighbors cat was pretty good even without Dark Convergence.

My cat Bosco getting ready in enter Cyrodiil with his character Bosco Nine-claws wearing his new Dark Convergence set. Just spam 2 simple paw strikes and enemies melt.

TequilaFire

rbfrgsp wrote: »

Remove AP from player kills and award them only for campaign goals (capture keeps, scrolls, completing missions, etc) might work by disincentivising directionless marauding group play. It would probably work better than any in-game solution but it would be a pretty sad change to see happen.

Would add another 100 years to leveling alliance rank to max for the 3 players that would be left. lol

Dojohoda

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

vgastel wrote: »

Something is clearly not working as intended...

- New sets are supposed to split up ball groups, but rather many ballgroups use them to stack the pugs

- Lag in the last three days (PC EU GH) has been the worst I have seen since a long time. Might be related to the fact that people are constantly roll dodging out of the ever present dark convergence AOEs.

- Two of the new sets are so OP and so easy to use that Cyro is less and less about how skilled one is as a player. Even my neighbors cat is a good pvper with dark convergence 😿.

To be fair, your neighbors cat was pretty good even without Dark Convergence.

My cat Bosco getting ready in enter Cyrodiil with his character Bosco Nine-claws wearing his new Dark Convergence set. Just spam 2 simple paw strikes and enemies melt.

Do you reckon the Kitty will let you use the mouse pad?

rbfrgsp

TequilaFire wrote: »

rbfrgsp wrote: »

Remove AP from player kills and award them only for campaign goals (capture keeps, scrolls, completing missions, etc) might work by disincentivising directionless marauding group play. It would probably work better than any in-game solution but it would be a pretty sad change to see happen.

Would add another 100 years to leveling alliance rank to max for the 3 players that would be left. lol

Yeah, but titles are purely cosmetic. Rewards are a few overpriced novelty furnishings. And skill points are hardly in short supply. The impact would not be that big.

TequilaFire

rbfrgsp wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

rbfrgsp wrote: »

Remove AP from player kills and award them only for campaign goals (capture keeps, scrolls, completing missions, etc) might work by disincentivising directionless marauding group play. It would probably work better than any in-game solution but it would be a pretty sad change to see happen.

Would add another 100 years to leveling alliance rank to max for the 3 players that would be left. lol

Yeah, but titles are purely cosmetic. Rewards are a few overpriced novelty furnishings. And skill points are hardly in short supply. The impact would not be that big.

So take away rewards for the point of PvP?
They just made BGs DM only so you see where that trend is going.
Might as well make Cyrodill PvE battles then.

rbfrgsp

Surely it would mean exactly the opposite of what you say? BG for straightforward deathmatching; Cyrodiil for tactical objective-based combat?

Note I am not advocating this idea. I am saying that it may be the last remaining solution for addressing some broken elements of the PvP experience in this game.

You'd still get the rewards for levelling up your alliance war rank. It would just take longer again like it used to (or put more value on things like war torte).

TequilaFire

rbfrgsp wrote: »

Surely it would mean exactly the opposite of what you say? BG for straightforward deathmatching; Cyrodiil for tactical objective-based combat?

Note I am not advocating this idea. I am saying that it may be the last remaining solution for addressing some broken elements of the PvP experience in this game.

You'd still get the rewards for levelling up your alliance war rank. It would just take longer again like it used to (or put more value on things like war torte).

See I don't call organized group play broken.

rbfrgsp

And an ever decreasing cyrodiil population will agree with you.

TequilaFire

rbfrgsp wrote: »

And an ever decreasing cyrodiil population will agree with you.

Performance is the main reason for pop decline.

rbfrgsp

Every contributing factor needs to be addressed.

Kwoung

rbfrgsp wrote: »

Every contributing factor needs to be addressed.

Too late, no one is playing anymore, at least on PCNA GH, which was the most populated server. Between Dark Convergence, New World and completely lopsided and lagged out play... there is an almost complete lack of interest in ESO PVP on that server at least, can't speak for others.

Oh and I should add, the group size reduction to 12, also made it so the few extras in my guild beyond the 12 we can fit now, can't really join and enjoy the experience, so they don't, further reducing the population.

Jaraal

Kwoung wrote: »

rbfrgsp wrote: »

Every contributing factor needs to be addressed.

Too late, no one is playing anymore, at least on PCNA GH, which was the most populated server. Between Dark Convergence, New World and completely lopsided and lagged out play... there is an almost complete lack of interest in ESO PVP on that server at least, can't speak for others.

Oh and I should add, the group size reduction to 12, also made it so the few extras in my guild beyond the 12 we can fit now, can't really join and enjoy the experience, so they don't, further reducing the population.

Yeah it's funny how ZOS is trying their hardest to push people away from Cyrodiil, but some of us die-hards just keep coming back. So many nerfs and revocations of long standing play styles, supposedly in the name of performance, and yet performance has never been worse. It started when they killed all the deer in Cyrodiil, and it's just gone downhill from there.

NotTaylorSwift

doesurmindglow wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Always about ballgroups. This thread was nothing to do with ballgroups. You guys just love to complain about them. ZoS doesn’t need to “stop ballgroups”. In their latest post about update 32 they reiterated “play how you want”. Ballgroups are not griefing anyone and nothing they do is against terms of service or unhealthy for pvp. It is by players own choice that they get farmed. No one is forcing you to stand up at the keep and run into the group just to die over and over and over.

I don't have a problem with "ball groups." I don't care if they use the sets. I organize a ball group and the sets have been a huge asset for us. Mostly because "ball groups" are not actually negatively effected by set bonuses that scale with targets hit -- in the vast majority of cases, "ball groups" are actually the smaller force.

My issue is rather with the idea we can "address" ball groups by introducing overpowered and annoying set bonuses into the game. This was the stated goal of the sets, and of many people on the forums applauding the sets at the time they were being introduced. I don't believe "ball groups," "faction stacking," "large groups," or "zergs" can be addressed this way, because all of the above can and will simply use the sets also, and there's really no way to prevent that.

Rather I'd like to see them look at an approach that promotes a) an easier time finding an organized group that might realistically counter a "ball group," b) hard choices about server resources and capacity to support coordinated group gameplay, and c) ways to end (or diminish the perceived benefits of) engaging in stalemated fights, including potentially limitations on the ability to resurrect. But regardless of the actual "solution," trying to "end ball groups" or "address zergs" or whatever with an overtuned set bonus is not an effective approach, and it creates new and serious problems in the process.

This is the fault of Zos going in the wrong direction as per usual. They don't need to cater to people crying on the forums and add things into the game which are meant to give people an easier time (even though it rarely works out that way yet they continue to do it). I agree with you that it is not effective at all. Rather, they should focus on encouraging players to improve their gameplay to become more effective, instead of dumbing down everyone's gameplay to even the playing field... Every tool one could ever need to counter a ballgroup already exists in the game without these stupid new additions. The problem is, the majority of people do not want to put the effort in to beat an organised, experienced group and think that they should beat them for free. It's literally an mmo focused on group play. Why should solo zerglings be given so much free power? By giving it to them as Zos does over and over, they buff EVERYONE. Groups included...

They need a good pvp developer... the current setup is clearly not working as pvp is only getting worse every single patch.

EdmondDontes

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

The amount of cheap deaths I had from DC last-night was ridiculous, no skill involved, no combat even, just aoe trash proc, interrupting decent play.

Worst I saw was on players taking a flag inside a keep whilst a single player stood on the floor above, effectively bombing the flag takers by standing a whole floor above them and DC pooping out its trash!

Proc pulling is a game breaking mechanic. If people want to use a pull skill, great. Aim and fire your skill. (like with DK chains) But doing it with a random proc makes no sense no matter how you look at it.

Joy_Division

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you wanna introduce a mechanic to make it easier to fight ball groups and zergs it has to be a mechanic they can't or won't abuse themselves.

Easy. All AoE Procs will now damage your teammates.

I know this has been mentioned before, and people say any friendly fire mechanics will be abused by trolls. Probably true, but it's a certain fix to VD ballgroups.

Oh yes. I can't wait for alliances to send buddies over to wipe the opposition with friendly fire.

Right, people should be alliance locked, permanently. Not campaigns, not accounts - people.

Right, because a troll won't all of a sudden be a troll if you force them to play for one side.

mague

LOL, come and play nonCP and nonProc with us. We have low pop mode, no Volendrung, fps and good old clubing to death

martinhpb16_ESO

TequilaFire wrote: »

Performance is the main reason for pop decline.

It is hard to valuate reasons.

I have been playing with crappy performance for years.

It definitely deters me but for example the other night - lag + declining pop on my faction against pop-locked reds were definite factors. The straw that broke the camel's back though was irritating deaths to DC and finally being pulled from a keep wall by it and dying to gravity. I logged off and haven't played pvp for four days. I used to play daily. I may dip in for an hour or so once or twice a week at best these days.

Performance is a factor but I would suggest the Devs approach has led to an accumulation of reasons that add up to dissatisfaction.

- performance - actually declining!
- constant meta and combat changes - constant!
- reduced pop cap meaning less action
- Only token new pvp content e.g. hammer
- The last wave of sets that totally underestimated consequence and balance

martinhpb16_ESO

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

They need a good pvp developer... the current setup is clearly not working as pvp is only getting worse every single patch.

It is getting worse, you are right there

EdmondDontes

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Performance is the main reason for pop decline.

It is hard to valuate reasons.

I have been playing with crappy performance for years.

It definitely deters me but for example the other night - lag + declining pop on my faction against pop-locked reds were definite factors. The straw that broke the camel's back though was irritating deaths to DC and finally being pulled from a keep wall by it and dying to gravity. I logged off and haven't played pvp for four days. I used to play daily. I may dip in for an hour or so once or twice a week at best these days.

Performance is a factor but I would suggest the Devs approach has led to an accumulation of reasons that add up to dissatisfaction.

- performance - actually declining!
- constant meta and combat changes - constant!
- reduced pop cap meaning less action
- Only token new pvp content e.g. hammer
- The last wave of sets that totally underestimated consequence and balance

This is a pretty good list of reasons PvP in ESO is so frustrating these days. We are suffering an accumulating number of frustrations and all we ever see in response is new PvE content and crown store shinies.

It's like the cynical saying in a way, "Friends come and go, but enemies accumulate". That's what's happening in ESO PvP. The problems keep accumulating and rarely ever get solved or even recognized publicly. But the friends are moving on to other games.

ResidentContrarian

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you wanna introduce a mechanic to make it easier to fight ball groups and zergs it has to be a mechanic they can't or won't abuse themselves.

Siege should get stronger the more players hit.

As it stands there is zero counter to multiple mechanics that ultimately reduce damage like siege shield or stacked healing sets.

If ZOS wants negate to be the counter, then it cannot be accessible to only one class, there must be a siege that does it.

If ZOS wants a set to be a counter, a better idea than convergence would be a set that turns the HoTs on players to DoTs -- but said set would be strong on its own, so likely only an effect after using any siege. That would leave direct healing alone but punish HoT stacking from players and sets -- a staple for faction stacks and ball groups.

If ZOS wants to target purge spam, then ZOS should add a ramping cost to it in Cyrodiil only.

etc.

But

You know there is no way ball group players won't oppose that. To many players that play in a ball group, the game is "balanced".

I will say my opinion greatly differs from theirs...

Tommy_The_Gun

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you wanna introduce a mechanic to make it easier to fight ball groups and zergs it has to be a mechanic they can't or won't abuse themselves.

Pale Order ring already has such a mechanic. It gets weaker the more people are in a group.

^ Making things to scale with group size (via Battle Spirit for example) is the only way to reduce ball group effectiveness, without nerfing everything else.

Urzigurumash

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you wanna introduce a mechanic to make it easier to fight ball groups and zergs it has to be a mechanic they can't or won't abuse themselves.

Easy. All AoE Procs will now damage your teammates.

I know this has been mentioned before, and people say any friendly fire mechanics will be abused by trolls. Probably true, but it's a certain fix to VD ballgroups.

Oh yes. I can't wait for alliances to send buddies over to wipe the opposition with friendly fire.

Right, people should be alliance locked, permanently. Not campaigns, not accounts - people.

Right, because a troll won't all of a sudden be a troll if you force them to play for one side.

Then they'll be guilty of treachery and indicted accordingly, I already run a kangaroo court in Woodhearth to deal with spies

DrSlaughtr

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you wanna introduce a mechanic to make it easier to fight ball groups and zergs it has to be a mechanic they can't or won't abuse themselves.

Siege should get stronger the more players hit.

As it stands there is zero counter to multiple mechanics that ultimately reduce damage like siege shield or stacked healing sets.

If ZOS wants negate to be the counter, then it cannot be accessible to only one class, there must be a siege that does it.

If ZOS wants a set to be a counter, a better idea than convergence would be a set that turns the HoTs on players to DoTs -- but said set would be strong on its own, so likely only an effect after using any siege. That would leave direct healing alone but punish HoT stacking from players and sets -- a staple for faction stacks and ball groups.

If ZOS wants to target purge spam, then ZOS should add a ramping cost to it in Cyrodiil only.

etc.

But

You know there is no way ball group players won't oppose that. To many players that play in a ball group, the game is "balanced".

I will say my opinion greatly differs from theirs...

I've said exactly this a dozen times. One catapult that has a tool top similar to proxy.