Cyrodil is trashed!

martinhpb16_ESO

If I was new at pvp I would throw this game in the trash, really honestly. I would just not play it.

Just returned to Cyrodil after a hiatus playing in IC.

The lag is unplayable, its beyond acceptable!

Combine it with the ridiculous proc pulls and no skill passive aoe and its beyond bad.

Really Zos, please pull your finger out, something has to give.

vgastel

Something is clearly not working as intended...

- New sets are supposed to split up ball groups, but rather many ballgroups use them to stack the pugs

- Lag in the last three days (PC EU GH) has been the worst I have seen since a long time. Might be related to the fact that people are constantly roll dodging out of the ever present dark convergence AOEs.

- Two of the new sets are so OP and so easy to use that Cyro is less and less about how skilled one is as a player. Even my neighbors cat is a good pvper with dark convergence 😿.

doesurmindglow

I predicted all of this on the PTS: The sets would not only do nothing to stop ball groups, they would active buff them. This is utterly unsurprising to anyone who's actually run ball groups. To be clear, there is no set, combination of skills, or tweaks to abilities that will do anything to "ball groups."

The best bet is looking at the problem differently, which is to recognize it as a skill gap between a coordinated, optimized guild of experienced players using voice comms and restructure incentives to actively penalize farming and griefing behaviors. I don't exactly know what that looks like, though I tried to offer a few ideas on the PTS discussion about the allegedly "anti-ball group sets." But this idea that we'll throw a few sets into the game and their existence alone will "stop ball groups" is very silly and the implementation has been exactly as I expected.

What I didn't anticipate is how badly they'd also wreck performance. That's something that's a little harder to foresee with the PTS. But it has done that, also.

LarsS

Raven is free of lag mostly even when all are locked.

martinhpb16_ESO

LarsS wrote: »

Raven is free of lag mostly even when all are locked.

A guildy mentioned that, so it would suggest the new procs are significantly increasing what is already poor performance.

Worth noting though that during the no-proc era, there was still lag in Cyro!

ealdwin

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

Raven is free of lag mostly even when all are locked.

A guildy mentioned that, so it would suggest the new procs are significantly increasing what is already poor performance.

Worth noting though that during the no-proc era, there was still lag in Cyro!

Surprising, but not that surprising to hear. Each of the new sets have multiple components to them that either rely on a multitude of effects or have special conditions which likely result in additional special calculations. And then all of them are AoE, making them pretty effective for a wearer of them in nearly any circumstance, leading to most people wearing at least one if not two of them. It's kind of a perfect storm that is definitely within its power to be taxing on the server.

Dojohoda

Cyrodiil is a clown show thanks to the new sets.

Jaraal

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I predicted all of this on the PTS: The sets would not only do nothing to stop ball groups, they would active buff them. This is utterly unsurprising to anyone who's actually run ball groups. To be clear, there is no set, combination of skills, or tweaks to abilities that will do anything to "ball groups."

Plaguebreak was supposed to be "the answer" to ball groups, but ball groups simply quit casting Purge and devoted those resources to extra heals to blast hrough the Dark Convergence / Hrothgar spam. And now ball groups just stack Dark Convergence and roll through zergs, small groups, and solo players stronger than ever. Until they address the heal stacking, nothing will change with the organized groups.

These "zerg busting" sets only buffed the zergs and ball groups. They seem to be the ultimate design failure and backfire..... at least in our eyes. However, we could all be wrong and the new sets are actually working as intended. Not once since they have been unleashed upon PvP has anyone from ZOS said there was any sort of problem with the new sets or that the player outcry has any validity.

It would be amusing to be a fly on the wall at ZOS headquarters right about now! I doubt that they anticipated such a strong backlash to their plan. The impact of these new sets, especially DC, has been quite dramatic. It will be interesting to see what happens.... if anything.

martinhpb16_ESO

doesurmindglow wrote: »

Until they address the heal stacking, nothing will change with the organized groups.

Everything you said is spot on

It's crazy that 4 cross-healing p2w necros / wardens can fend off a rabble almost indefinitely when they are balled and cross healing.

MalakithAlamahdi

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

If I was new at pvp I would throw this game in the trash, really honestly. I would just not play it.

Just returned to Cyrodil after a hiatus playing in IC.

The lag is unplayable, its beyond acceptable!

Combine it with the ridiculous proc pulls and no skill passive aoe and its beyond bad.

Really Zos, please pull your finger out, something has to give.

Welcome back to ESO pvp in Cyrodiil mate, where lag is a greater enemy than your actual foes.

Ralamil

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

Until they address the heal stacking, nothing will change with the organized groups.

Everything you said is spot on

It's crazy that 4 cross-healing p2w necros / wardens can fend off a rabble almost indefinitely when they are balled and cross healing.

It's ridiculous that people think it's "pay to win" for content released as part of various game updates. Do you expect to get access to everything for free, forever? (and this is coming from someone who unsubbed a while ago, due to PvP being a dumpster fire)

It's also ridiculous that people think organized groups that have put in the time and effort to build out their composition and learn how to play well with one another SHOULDN'T be able to hold off "rabble" almost indefinitely (which also isn't even true, organized groups do get overwhelmed by pugs).

People need to understand that Cyrodiil is supposed to be a game of organization and cooperation. If you think you can just roll around solo or roll around with no direction in a mass of people, you SHOULD get beaten by folks who know what they're doing.

Jaraal wrote: »

Plaguebreak was supposed to be "the answer" to ball groups, but ball groups simply quit casting Purge and devoted those resources to extra heals to blast hrough the Dark Convergence / Hrothgar spam. And now ball groups just stack Dark Convergence and roll through zergs, small groups, and solo players stronger than ever. Until they address the heal stacking, nothing will change with the organized groups.

Well ZOS [snip] needs to realize that organized guilds are going to take advantage of anything that's released into the game. It's almost like they're painfully unaware they already have an item in the game that stops functioning once you're at a certain group size (with scaling decreases in effectiveness prior to hitting that cap), and that they could use similar logic to gate off certain sets from organized guilds.

But again, people need to realize that they shouldn't have a no-skill "win" set given to them because they're either incapable or don't feel like putting in the time to learning how to also play in a group.

The real problem with lag and Cyrodiil today? The fact that every fight you go to, it's always everyone in one faction fighting against at least another faction worth of enemies (whether that be a single faction or a 3-way fight). Faction stacking is what folks should be referring to as "ball groups," and what ZOS needs to address if they want their servers to stop [snip] the bed quite so much.

[edited for bashing & profanity bypass]

Vaoh

The best thing they could do to create anti-zerg ability/proc is to make it noticeably weak option against solo players, but very punishing to groups with drastically increasing damage based on enemies hit.


Plaguebreak (current)
Dealing direct damage to an enemy, who is not a Plague Carrier, turns them into a Plague Carrier for 10 seconds, dealing 2068 Disease Damage over the duration. If the plague is removed early, it explodes, infecting enemies within 8 meters of the carrier and dealing 2075 Disease Damage. The explosion deals an additional 10% damage per enemy hit. This effect can occur once per attack and scales off the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage.

Plaguebreak (new)
Dealing direct damage to an enemy, who is not a Plague Carrier, turns them into a Plague Carrier for 10 seconds, dealing 1019 Disease Damage over the duration and reducing their healing dealt to other players by 20%. If the plague is removed early, it explodes, infecting enemies within 8 meters of the carrier and dealing 517 Disease Damage. The explosion deals an additional 100% damage per enemy hit. This effect can occur once per attack and scales off the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage.

The same goes for Dark Convergence and Hrothgar’s. They need to have their damage reduced by a large amount to where a solo player barely feels them, but then scale much higher based on enemies hit.

Ralamil

Vaoh wrote: »

The same goes for Dark Convergence and Hrothgar’s. They need to have their damage reduced by a large amount to where a solo player barely feels them, but then scale much higher based on enemies hit.

[snip] One guy with no skill relying on crutch sets to do all his damage for him should not beat groups that put in the time and effort to coordinate.

But also these sets that ZOS insists on ramming down our throats shouldn't be this brokenly strong in the hands of organized groups. Dark Convergence should stay as it is, but the damage output of the wearer should go down if they're in a group of, say, 5 or more.

Then you get sets as effective as they currently are, in the hands of solo/small man groups, but they're not going to be as effective when you're in a raid of 12.

[Edited for Baiting]

Tommy_The_Gun

LarsS wrote: »

Raven is free of lag mostly even when all are locked.

Maybe on NA.

I moved from Gray Host to Ravenwatch just to not have to deal with proc sets, but the lag in Ravenwatch EU is significantly worse. Idk why, but it is way worse than Gray Host. At least on EU PC.

TequilaFire

Organized groups "git-smart" with what the game gives them.
Hard to nerf that, but everyone has the ability to do the same with a little effort.

Jaraal

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

Raven is free of lag mostly even when all are locked.

Maybe on NA.

I moved from Gray Host to Ravenwatch just to not have to deal with proc sets, but the lag in Ravenwatch EU is significantly worse. Idk why, but it is way worse than Gray Host. At least on EU PC.

They did say that performance was slightly worse during the no-proc test, so that's not surprising. Might have to do with people using more skills instead of letting sets do the work. One reason may be that procs work automatically in the lag, whereas in no-proc people are spamming skills trying to get past the input lag, thereby creating a critical amount of server calls.

LarsS

Jaraal wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

Raven is free of lag mostly even when all are locked.

Maybe on NA.

I moved from Gray Host to Ravenwatch just to not have to deal with proc sets, but the lag in Ravenwatch EU is significantly worse. Idk why, but it is way worse than Gray Host. At least on EU PC.

They did say that performance was slightly worse during the no-proc test, so that's not surprising. Might have to do with people using more skills instead of letting sets do the work. One reason may be that procs work automatically in the lag, whereas in no-proc people are spamming skills trying to get past the input lag, thereby creating a critical amount of server calls.

Thats not my experience and there is much less complaints about lag on our raid, but its mostly because of the multithreading option I think.

The real advantage with Ravenwatch though is that there is no proc-sets, thus you need to focus on good rotations and team play.

NotTaylorSwift

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I predicted all of this on the PTS: The sets would not only do nothing to stop ball groups, they would active buff them. This is utterly unsurprising to anyone who's actually run ball groups. To be clear, there is no set, combination of skills, or tweaks to abilities that will do anything to "ball groups."

The best bet is looking at the problem differently, which is to recognize it as a skill gap between a coordinated, optimized guild of experienced players using voice comms and restructure incentives to actively penalize farming and griefing behaviors. I don't exactly know what that looks like, though I tried to offer a few ideas on the PTS discussion about the allegedly "anti-ball group sets." But this idea that we'll throw a few sets into the game and their existence alone will "stop ball groups" is very silly and the implementation has been exactly as I expected.

What I didn't anticipate is how badly they'd also wreck performance. That's something that's a little harder to foresee with the PTS. But it has done that, also.

Always about ballgroups. This thread was nothing to do with ballgroups. You guys just love to complain about them. ZoS doesn’t need to “stop ballgroups”. In their latest post about update 32 they reiterated “play how you want”. Ballgroups are not griefing anyone and nothing they do is against terms of service or unhealthy for pvp. It is by players own choice that they get farmed. No one is forcing you to stand up at the keep and run into the group just to die over and over and over.

The new sets are unhealthy for pvp and that’s what the thread was about. Who cares if ballgroups are using them? Everyone is using them because they are so overturned and just plain stupid. Dark convergence has got to be one of the worst implementations in this game. At a time when hate for damage procs is so bad that Zos has dedicated an entire pvp campaign to disabling them…
It’s just plain ignorance on behalf of the devs 🤷🏻‍♂️

Positional displacement is just a toxic, frustrating mechanic. Not too bad when only certain classes/builds have access to it but now literally everyone is running DC. Getting ping ponged across Cyrodiil on cc cooldown is not exactly fun and engaging pvp…

NotTaylorSwift

These new sets are just absolutely unnecessary. It is completely possible to wipe (or dent) ballgroups and zergs without them. They only serve to bring horrible interactions into pvp.

It is easy to say they were added due to outcry on the forums about ballgroups or zergs. Instead of dumbing the game down to sets that do the work for you with 1 button, Zos should encourage players to actually learn the game properly… but I do believe that this isn’t possible for them as none of the developers play pvp enough… or well enough (to my knowledge) to actually understand it themselves. I have never ever seen a developer in game in pvp. Never. This wouldn’t be an issue if the changes made to the game were actually good. But it is clear that they simply do not have a good connection with/understanding of pvp from an in game perspective. Why don’t they interact with high profile players or streamers to get their take on matters??

The best 12 man groups who play together multiple times every week, with voice comms and planned out setups should not be beatable by unorganised pugs unless they make too many mistakes or lack competence. Only by sheer numbers (which atm doesn’t seem possible as the population cap seems to be very low). Fighting 40 people is very manageable. Fighting double that would definitely be a much bigger challenge. If game performance was better and there were more people in cyrodiil then it would literally be better for everyone…

Or, by other organised groups. And I’m not saying people need to make their own 12 man groups. Take 1 or 2 bombers with harmony, a Necro with graveyard and a Templar with nova. Add a major courage set or other dmg buffing set and you can wipe any group with this if played well from inside a zerg. It literally takes only some organisation from 3 or 4 players. I don’t know why people think this is so unachievable?? It’s an mmo, playing and interacting/working with other players is part of the game’s concept!

Once again, these new sets are totally unnecessary and unhealthy for pvp. Completely the wrong direction to take. Shocking.

biminirwb17_ESO

My biggest complaint with DC is that it has removed defensive siege from the game, the pull off walls has meant no sane person would use an expensive cold fire ballista or similar for fear of getting pulled of the wall or exploded by walking bombs light attacking.

When volcanic rune is now a better siege weapon, something is wrong.

Larcomar

I tend to flick between servers. In terms of lag, I've been finding Raven is notably worse than Greyhost (pc EU) despite having a lower population. It's not the proc sets causing the lag. But then we knew that from the tests. What is clear is that the proc sets benefit from - or are almost designed to take advantage of - the lag; I've both used and been on the receiving end of DC quite a bit. It's a pretty easy set to dodge in the shoulder but once you hit prime time the kills go through the roof. When a ball group shows, you're looking at back to back multi kills.

Not saying they're broken or should be nerfed; just my observation of their performance, based on the numbers I'm getting. Personally I think they're working as intended. But then I've thought for a long time that the intention is to take procs out of pvp and make it as simple as possible. It makes sense if you think about it - I mean, it's a lot less work for them. They tried doing it with their "tests" but got a load of pushback, so now they've given us the "choice" - but introduced some new proc sets to make sure we make the "right" one....

spacefracking

Plaguebreak is good. Could use some beefy defile stuff going on. Maybe boost the dot a bit higher to match an ability dot, at the least. I think its like 60% of what the average dot ability does for damage, whereas hroth and the dc are like... lmao, who even knows, dps jet fuel. In the end, finding the sweet spot for a proc set's damage is clearly an impossible task. Major defile is a good idea probably.

A spell cost debuff on non-self heals would be pretty awesome. Or at least non-single target. How could this ever go wrong? I honestly don't know, but the pvp hive will try and extract something broken out of literally anything, as its an arms race.

Long_Distance

LarsS wrote: »

Raven is free of lag mostly even when all are locked.

Which is hardly ever the case. Maybe for an hour or two in prime time on weekends.

On the topic: Despite the seemingly unanimous complaint on the forums I have a feeling that many people actually like the new sets. People complaining about ball groups "still" rolling over pugs should be reminded that ball grouping is just zerging on another level.

The only difference to pugs or casual guild groups is that they put some effort into their raids. Most notably coordination + assigning dedicated roles and making maximum use of gear synergy. Part of their effort is to learn and to adapt to new situations.
So they will always have an advantage over the zergs. It will make no difference whatsoever if you kill the new sets or cross healing or whatever.

Zergs and casual groups don't learn and they don't adapt (or at least not on a group level - individuals may slot another defensive set once a new burst patch hits) Everybody who can type lfg in zone chat or is part of the guild can join, regardless of role or gear or being able to understand English and react in time. The only general rule is "follow the crown" and thats about it.

I think these zergs are is a good thing, because it allows newer people to get into pvp, or people who just want to quickly farm some transmutes of whatever. But they shouldn't expect to roll over by balls when they have the numbers. Moreover this would be a bit unjust: If everybody is equally powerful independent of skill, gear and coordination, the outcome of a fight would come down to rolling dice which would be even more boring than the current meta.

Jaraal

spacefracking wrote: »

A spell cost debuff on non-self heals would be pretty awesome. Or at least non-single target.

The mechanics for this are already in place, with Streak. "Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka."

Could change AOE heals/regen to a similar scaling metric.

lexicondevil99

vgastel wrote: »

<snip>
- Two of the new sets are so OP and so easy to use that Cyro is less and less about how skilled one is as a player. Even my neighbors cat is a good pvper with dark convergence 😿.

To be fair, your neighbors cat was pretty good even without Dark Convergence.

NotTaylorSwift

Long_Distance wrote: »

People complaining about ball groups "still" rolling over pugs should be reminded that ball grouping is just zerging on another level.

How is ballgrouping zerging?

Don’t understand 🤷🏻‍♂️ I’d say zerging is running with LOTS of players (more than one groups worth) or just rolling over people whilst outnumbering them. Ballgrouping is basically the opposite of this?

neferpitou73

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Long_Distance wrote: »

People complaining about ball groups "still" rolling over pugs should be reminded that ball grouping is just zerging on another level.

How is ballgrouping zerging?

Don’t understand 🤷🏻‍♂️ I’d say zerging is running with LOTS of players (more than one groups worth) or just rolling over people whilst outnumbering them. Ballgrouping is basically the opposite of this?

I believe he's saying that ball groups are just zerglings who've upped their game, by coordinating their zerging (for a given definition of zerging as you point out)

FrancisCrawford

Jaraal wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

A spell cost debuff on non-self heals would be pretty awesome. Or at least non-single target.

The mechanics for this are already in place, with Streak. "Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka."

Could change AOE heals/regen to a similar scaling metric.

Wouldn't that favor coordinated groups who rotated skill use among different members?

katorga

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

Raven is free of lag mostly even when all are locked.

A guildy mentioned that, so it would suggest the new procs are significantly increasing what is already poor performance.

Worth noting though that during the no-proc era, there was still lag in Cyro!

Just think about the level of server/clients coordination required for Dark Convergence. It is like someone designed a set specifically to exacerbate lag, positional de-syncs, and disconnects.

On the plus side, maybe The Game Which Shall Not Be Named will steal so many pvp players, that it becomes playable again.

Rhaegar75

katorga wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

Raven is free of lag mostly even when all are locked.

On the plus side, maybe The Game Which Shall Not Be Named will steal so many pvp players, that it becomes playable again.

well....so far I've heard and experienced a lot of queuing, farming, open world ganking and a fair amount of good old desync

DrSlaughtr

If you wanna introduce a mechanic to make it easier to fight ball groups and zergs it has to be a mechanic they can't or won't abuse themselves.