Upcoming Changes to Battleground Queues

hafgood

lordskrub wrote: »

nightstrike wrote: »

lordskrub wrote: »

i think alot of people was just ignoring the drop down and making only dm pop chaning it to random at the top is a great step and the DM only players can easily just select it if thats all they like

The DM only choice is being removed

no its not they're just putting random at the top and dm only second so newer or no pvers dont just keep picking dm only

Not wanting to go back and forth but Gina literally states the DM queues will be removed

dinokstrunz

Is that it? Nothing else to say about Battlegrounds other than just "we're reverting back to how it was in Blackwood until the foreseeable future". No word on the lack of updates to the group matching tool or rating system. This just feels like a complete waste of time.

jaws343

KKolly wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

So, the conclusion is that the people who didn't like Deathmatch were a minority even before the tests?

That's not what happened. The problem is that there ended up being two nearly identical queues. One that was 100% Deathmatch, and one that was 95% Deathmatch.

So any increase in participation attributable to a DM-only queue was completely wiped out by the tons of people who just simply quit BG's because the random queue was almost literally nothing but BGs. If they don't roll back to what it was before the changes (which they didn't say they would do), you'll see exactly what I mean once you queue for the random queue about 30 times.

I don't know how you quoted that to me, but that is definitely not my comment.

Alucu

KKolly wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

So, the conclusion is that the people who didn't like Deathmatch were a minority even before the tests?

That's not what happened. The problem is that there ended up being two nearly identical queues. One that was 100% Deathmatch, and one that was 95% Deathmatch.

So any increase in participation attributable to a DM-only queue was completely wiped out by the tons of people who just simply quit BG's because the random queue was almost literally nothing but DM. If they don't roll back to what it was before the changes (which they didn't say they would do), you'll see exactly what I mean once you queue for the random queue about 30 times.

If Gina meant that the participation and population didnt vary much before and after the tests, we can only assume that people didnt care about deathmatch only or people who quit because of DM only were a minority

CyberOnEso

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thank you for the communication and for taking the data and the concerns of the players seriously. It is greatly appreciated.

I wish battlegrounds were populated enough for many queues, with more of an incentive to participate.
Battleground only mount? Reskin the Alliance War Horse with the BG team's banners?

I understand people will be disappointed at the removal of deathmatch only, however, I am glad that the game will not remain in a state of being unable to get all the achievements.

I hope that with time battlegrounds population will grow and there will be able to be multiple queues on all servers.
Everyone wants the best battleground experience possible.

KKolly

Alucu wrote: »

If Gina meant that the participation and population didnt vary much before and after the tests, we can only assume that people didnt care about deathmatch only or people who quit because of DM only were a minority

You're missing a third possibility.: If you have ten players, and you add 5 new players, and also subtract 5 old ones, you still end up with 10 players. The participation and total population hasn't varied.

But the players themselves will be different, and you'll have missed out on the opportunity to have 15 players instead of 10.

I know people who started playing BG's again because of the DM-only queue. I also know people who dropped BG's altogether because the regular queue became almost nothing but DM. When they added non-DM modes back in, they messed with the weights for the modes and drove a lot of people away, likely enough to negate the people who came back to BG's for DM.

PvP_Exploiter

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

First off, thanks to everyone for participating in all the Battlegrounds queue tests over the past few months, including the most recent addition of Deathmatch-only queues over winter break. We were able to gather a lot of data from these tests regarding Battlegrounds participation and ultimately found it did not significantly affect the participation and population, and also took into account the feedback received about the majority of Battleground games being Deathmatch. We did see the suggestions for adding additional queue options and considered those as well, but doing so would splinter the Battlegrounds population too much and would lead to much longer queue times; we want to ensure the healthiest population and player experience. As such, we are making the call to remove the Deathmatch-only queue option.

Starting in Update 33, the default option for Battleground queues will be “Solo Random” and the dropdown selection will have “Group Random”. Remember, the group queue will take solo, duo, trio and full groups of players, but the solo queue will only include players that queued solo. All games modes will be in both of these queues.

This will be the last change we make to Battleground queues for the foreseeable future. Thanks again for partaking in these tests and aiding us in gathering very valuable feedback.

So the overall BG population and activity didn't change, however you will revert the changes because of a vocal minority.

At least make Deathmatch 1/3 chance, then 1/3 chance for each for the other two categories. Making those modes 1/6, instead of DM being 1/5 as that was awful.

thesarahandcompany

If there were "no significant changes in population," then it is ultimately a reflection of ZOS' values that it doesn't care enough about PvP.

Nearly 5 years. It's been fun, but peace. I don't feel like breaking my new year's resolution of practicing better mental health in 2022 by dealing with this queue change.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

This is a terrible decision by zos. This was the last bit of real PvP content the game had where everyone (or almost everyone) queued in to fight one another as groups of players versus other groups of players not flags, relics, doors or walls but PLAYERS. If are going to remove the option for us to do actual player versus player combat at least give us something to look forward to for us. I know we are not the largest part of the ESO community but I still think we are big enough that we deserve some kind of content where brawling against other players is the main objective. At the moment the only form of this are duels but these are 1v1 only and offer no reward other than the feel of winning I guess. All I’m asking is that if you decide to remove the last feature in the game that promotes group vs group play please give us something in return. I don’t know when you plan on releasing new PvP content but something as easy to add as group duels would leave a lot of us satisfied considering that most don’t enjoy the 3 team format that makes it for a very uncompetitive environment, as for the soloq deathmatch community I don’t know what the solution could be those are the ones hurting the most from this.

KKolly

jaws343 wrote: »

I don't know how you quoted that to me, but that is definitely not my comment.

Seems the forum is bugged? It tags you as the commenter whenever I quote that comment from Alucu

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Alucu

KKolly wrote: »

Alucu wrote: »

If Gina meant that the participation and population didnt vary much before and after the tests, we can only assume that people didnt care about deathmatch only or people who quit because of DM only were a minority

You're missing a third possibility.: If you have ten players, and you add 5 new players, and also subtract 5 old ones, you still end up with 10 players. The participation and total population hasn't varied.

But the players themselves will be different, and you'll have missed out on the opportunity to have 15 players instead of 10.

I know people who started playing BG's again because of the DM-only queue. I also know people who dropped BG's altogether because the regular queue became almost nothing but DM. When they added non-DM modes back in, they messed with the weights for the modes and drove a lot of people away, likely enough to negate the people who came back to BG's for DM.

Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. So it is a problem of profiles of pvpers maybe

Miracle19

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

If there were "no significant changes in population," then it is ultimately a reflection of ZOS' values that it doesn't care enough about PvP.

Nearly 5 years. It's been fun, but peace. I don't feel like breaking my new year's resolution of practicing better mental health in 2022 by dealing with this queue change.

Just farm objective players until ZOS reverts it back to DM only haha

WuffyCerulei

A lot of vocal people on losing the Deathmatch-only choice, but let me say, thank you. Unlike others, I don’t enjoy Deathmatch. DM tends to render my preferred builds mute as almost everyone on the higher MMR side use cheesy high-damage builds, is a turbo healer, or is tankier than heck. It’s very bland for players like me. I like using light armor, and regardless of how well I try to play, most DM players can delete me within a heartbeat or take no damage from me. It just isn’t fun for me. If I wanted to do chest-beating fights, I’d go to Cyrodiil, where I have options and CP to help me. Yeah yeah, CP is a crutch, but I like CP-pvp for gorilla fighting. The other game modes give me and my team things to think about, things to do, and ways to win if we’re behind.
In conclusion, I dislike DM because it’s too one-sided and infuriating for someone like me. The other modes give me things to do rather than slap people with a wet noodle cuz Pariah keeps them up all the time.

gariondavey

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

This is not the right move. I'm a guild of 350 active bg players on pc na. We almost all prefer dm.

Please leave the group dm queue at least.

The easiest change would have been to not backfill the dm queues with the random queues. You should have just tried that next.

If you are committed to this, then PLEASE rework the objective modes. Either just 2 teams, or fewer objectives so pvp can actually occur instead of people just running where fighting isn't.

This comment has the backing over 350+ people.

Please listen to your player base. You are going to, and will lose, long time players to this. People who have been playing for years.

All that will happen now will be our terrorizing of the objective players. 0-20 scores but they win a game. Sounds really bad for all parties involved.

Alucu

gariondavey wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

This is not the right move. I'm a guild of 350 active bg players on pc na. We almost all prefer dm.

Please leave the group dm queue at least.

The easiest change would have been to not backfill the dm queues with the random queues. You should have just tried that next.

If you are committed to this, then PLEASE rework the objective modes. Either just 2 teams, or fewer objectives so pvp can actually occur instead of people just running where fighting isn't.

This comment has the backing over 350+ people.

Please listen to your player base. You are going to, and will lose, long time players to this. People who have been playing for years.

All that will happen now will be our terrorizing of the objective players. 0-20 scores but they win a game. Sounds really bad for all parties involved.

Seems they dont want to split the BG population even more, so everyone will have to cope with the modes they dont like. it would be better to attract more population so everyone could get to enjoy the modes they like. Perhaps a very small chance to get dawn-prisms, hakeijos, more transmutes in BG mails or dailies, etc

SkinkOlaf

ah so no more pvp in battlegrounds RIP

Giraffon

I think the right call would have been to allow players to set a default that would be preserved on a per character basis. Options should be:

Solo Random - No Deathmatch
Solo Deathmatch

This would basically make everyone happy. Group options should also be listed, but it may not make sense to allow those to be set as a default choice.

ESO_Nightingale

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

First off, thanks to everyone for participating in all the Battlegrounds queue tests over the past few months, including the most recent addition of Deathmatch-only queues over winter break. We were able to gather a lot of data from these tests regarding Battlegrounds participation and ultimately found it did not significantly affect the participation and population, and also took into account the feedback received about the majority of Battleground games being Deathmatch. We did see the suggestions for adding additional queue options and considered those as well, but doing so would splinter the Battlegrounds population too much and would lead to much longer queue times; we want to ensure the healthiest population and player experience. As such, we are making the call to remove the Deathmatch-only queue option.

Starting in Update 33, the default option for Battleground queues will be “Solo Random” and the dropdown selection will have “Group Random”. Remember, the group queue will take solo, duo, trio and full groups of players, but the solo queue will only include players that queued solo. All games modes will be in both of these queues.

This will be the last change we make to Battleground queues for the foreseeable future. Thanks again for partaking in these tests and aiding us in gathering very valuable feedback.

This is awful. With deathmatch ques, people could que for what they wanted to which is mostly deathmatch since a lot of people don't like the other modes. But with ques combined once again every game becomes deathmatch again and pisses off players who don't like deathmatch.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

This was such a dumb test. The queues should've been seperated to Deathmatch and random - without deathmatch.

You only got deathmatch no matter what you queued for, which stopped me from doing BG's often. Getting a deathmatch every now and then is fine but I loathe only deathmatch. I like the other modes, and on top of that it was impossible get achievment progress and style pages from the other modes thanks to this mess.

NerfSeige

We’re just gonna treat every match as deathmatch, lmao.

I pity the guys that wants to win the objectives but their teammates are just dueling with the other team at the side.

I pity the guys that just want to fight with good players or test their build but kept getting queued with 11 people that just want their barrier/warhorn.

Sad.

SerafinaWaterstar

So, on the positive side, might actually get objective games now.

And on the negative, will have to deal with try-hards treating all matches as Death matches. Yay.

ob1ken0bi

Giraffon wrote: »

I think the right call would have been to allow players to set a default that would be preserved on a per character basis. Options should be:

Solo Random - No Deathmatch
Solo Deathmatch

This would basically make everyone happy. Group options should also be listed, but it may not make sense to allow those to be set as a default choice.

Is it that hard to just do this???
Makes everyone happy.
- DM peeps go into only DM
- Peeps who want to play the other games queue for the other games

I don’t care if I have to wait to play other games. Already waiting for dungeon queue. Can’t imagine it would take longer to gather 12 players at any given time for a random.

Edit: maybe make random games 3 per team. Lessen the wait time

I can say I know people who stopped battlegrounds because they didn’t like the 100% DM (and they queued for random). So you lost people participating in this so called test. I probably did 50 total queues at random and got 50 DM. Then I stopped playing BG.
What test plays 100% DM and then says the data shows everyone likes DM. You have no choices.

Try a test with real choices and see what the data shows

I am not PvPer but I agree with many that the game does nothing to improve the PvP aspect and PvPer

Now seems your punishing all players but just having it all bundled up. And likely put the percentage high on DM and *** off the other players lol

Vevvev

I can finally play Battlegrounds again to fulfill the missing achievements I have in objective modes. Thankyou, ZOS. Might even play Battlegrounds more now over Cyrodiil because I honestly don't see Deathmatch as a sustainable game mode. It really gets boring after the 3rd match in a row.

MurderMostFoul

@ZOS_GinaBruno

I acknowledge that there's essentially no chance that any of the feedback after your last message in this thread is going to change ZOS's decision. But I can't help but state how dismaying this change is given how the testing was so poorly executed, and the data therefrom should not be relied upon.

Ever since the introduction of the group queue, the community has had two options when playing battlegrounds:
1. Only getting deathmatch at best 20% of the time.
2. Getting nearly exclusively deathmatch during these tests.

There are many ways the queue could be implemented in order to permit people who want to play deathmatch to play deathmatch, and allow people who want to play objective to play objective. Yet this is never been tested. Why? Giving players the opportunity to play the way they want would definitely result in the healthiest population. But instead of doing this you've limited options, driven portions of the population away, and then formed conclusions upon that data. And now you're essentially saying you'll permanently prevent players from choosing the battlegrounds mode they prefer.

How can ZOS possibly feel good about this decision? I know battlegrounds are not high on the development priority list, but this really just feels like complete disregard for what this dedicated portion of your community desires.

Noerra

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

First off, thanks to everyone for participating in all the Battlegrounds queue tests over the past few months, including the most recent addition of Deathmatch-only queues over winter break. We were able to gather a lot of data from these tests regarding Battlegrounds participation and ultimately found it did not significantly affect the participation and population, and also took into account the feedback received about the majority of Battleground games being Deathmatch. We did see the suggestions for adding additional queue options and considered those as well, but doing so would splinter the Battlegrounds population too much and would lead to much longer queue times; we want to ensure the healthiest population and player experience. As such, we are making the call to remove the Deathmatch-only queue option.

Starting in Update 33, the default option for Battleground queues will be “Solo Random” and the dropdown selection will have “Group Random”. Remember, the group queue will take solo, duo, trio and full groups of players, but the solo queue will only include players that queued solo. All games modes will be in both of these queues.

This will be the last change we make to Battleground queues for the foreseeable future. Thanks again for partaking in these tests and aiding us in gathering very valuable feedback.

Thanks for the Update, @ZOS_GinaBruno !

I would be super honored if you would take the time to read my post below. This is honest feedback and is in no way a criticism of anyone's character or an emotional tantrum about pvp. (I'm sorry you guys have to deal with so much of that lol!)

(1) I'm worried that "last change we make for the foreseeable future" means that you are going to ignore the pvp playerbase. We would love some continued communication and collaboration for the improvement of ESO pvp and ESO as a whole.

I would like to give some feedback as a player who loves pvp, loves elderscrolls lore, and loves mmorpgs and wants to see ESO (my favorite game) thrive and flourish in 2022 and beyond.

(2) Respectfully, I don't know if the staff is playing BGs and PvP themselves, but it is my speculation that perhaps you are making these decisions based off the numbers/statistics/data only without having personally (amongst the staff) put in hundreds of hours of pvp queuing to have a first hand experience of what it is like to be a pvp player.

The same way players can only speculate about the dev team and the decisions they have to make, I wonder if the staff is disconnected from the daily player experience in a similar way.

So for this point, my concern is that you are viewing Data and Statistics as a viable means of communication and collaboration with the player base.

Would you empathize with me for a second and reflect on some times where people thought they understood you and your issues based of a statistic or some generalization without talking with you directly? This is how we, as the pvp community, feel.

So I urge you to not set the pvp community aside again because you found a decision that you think is satisfactory for the "foreseeable future" - I believe if you and your team could make a platform for more open communication with the pvp community we could create some wonderful things!

You might be surprised to find out that the pvp community is a lot more wholesome than you might think, it has been my observation that the toxic expressions from the pvp community towards the devs is mostly about not feeling their voices are heard. Being quiet and polite seems to go largely ignore which is why frustration grows and the means to achieve attention turns into louder and more blatant expression.

(3) I'm not surprised at all with this outcome. Without having DM queuing for a long time, of course that's what people are going to flock to.

Beyond DM queuing being the "new and shiny" thing, it is simply more rewarding as it takes less time to complete a DM match compared to some of the other game modes that can drag on.

When it comes to completing BG quests and accumulating alliance points, it is simply more efficient to queue DM.

In addition to this, those that have higher mmr and are dedicated to mastery of the game and it's combat system want to test themselves in combat rather than chasing down speedy peeps and chonker tanks.

We appreciate the testing you have done because it makes us feel like you haven't forgotten about us... yet at the same time it feels like you are examining our elbow when we have an issue with out knees. What I mean is, it feels like there is a huge disconnect with actually knowing, from a first hand experience, what is wrong with PvP.

It's a clear demonstration that there could be better communication.

I've been following you on twitter, Gina, and am very pleased to see you are more passionate than ever to better communicate with the ESO player base this year!

But at the same time... again ... this decision to not continue to collaborate with us on finding a BG system that makes both of us happy as you are setting this down "for the foreseeable future" has me worried again that we are going to get the same lack off communication we have been getting over the years.

(4)It sounds like, from your post, that a big part of this whole experiment was to cultivate a healthy population. If this is the core goal then I would make a suggestion.

First off I'll just say if you wanted to gather data on what gametype was most popular, you should have rotated the BGs every week to see that... one week only DM, next week only Relics, etc....

You would have seen which BGs people were "meh" about and which ones people were "woohoo!" about. That would be useful data that could help you strategize making a decision on how to manage the queuing system imo.

I agree that switching back to random queuing only is the best decision for the time being as BGs don't seem to have been any more popular than before... and switching back to random would ensure other gametypes are not neglected.

But, Gina ... this doesn't solve anything... we are right where we started with no statement from you that you are committed to working with us to create a pvp bg queuing system we are both happy with... instead your statement is telling us you are reverting back to the previous way with no future plans or testing... This isn't an improvement, it is just more "shuffling the surface" rather than making a deep change in the quest for improvement.

Yes, you are right that option queueing would create "splintering" as you called it - but only if you do so without rewarding each gametype!

The problem with PvP population is that there is no goals for us to pursue that feel meaningful or reward our efforts.

Imagine you are an Athlete on an Olympic team and you practice everyday with no possibility of actually testing yourself and getting rewarded with a medal. Unless you live for the daily activity itself, there is no reason to be passionate and dedicated.

We need goals to pursue, Gina. The Class Balance is SO good right now and ESO combat is a one of a kind masterpiece. We pvp every day because we love it, but like the analogy above, unless we live for the Mastery itself, there is no reason to Queue BGs daily without a goal in sight.

So if populating Battlegrounds is the issue you were seeking to improve with the queuing system , I can guarantee you success if you give us a reward track.

And I mean much more than simply titles like "battlegrounds butcher" or motifs you get in the mail.....

If you want people to flood the Battlegrounds there are lots of options you could do.

Let me list a few below as (5) and (6)

(5) Make MMR visible - Having a number to push higher is it's own challenge and reward. It's a good feeling seeing your number improve because it means that you yourself are improving... it's also good feedback for us as players if we don't see it go higher because we can take that information and try out different strategies or builds that are more efficient.

This would get your already BG queuing players to queue more often increasing population in BGs.

You could reward players who reach a High MMR with a Title and Mount or something too.

There might be some people that feel upset about a reward that is attainable via pvp... but hey, a lot of people also don't want to do trials so those people won't ever get the sunspire mount and skin. Why can't pvp players have a cool unlockable too! I actually think it's a good thing that each part of the game rewards something unique!

I would say go one step further and bring back Deathmatch Queuing and Radom Queuing, only this time take DM queuing out of Random...

Make Random and DM have separate visible MMR rating and give a unique reward track to each!

Example:

I'm a player that likes Objective-based Battlegrounds so I queue for Randoms a lot... I see that at 400-700 mmr I get a title, 700-1000 I get a Skin, 1000-1300 I get a Costume, 1300-1600 I get a weapon style bundle, 1600-1900 Another title + Armor style, 1900-2200 a Mount!

(not that exactly of course but just an example)

And because those rewards are visible to me, I'm going to want to queue up over and over and get better at that type of gameplay to unlock those rewards!

The problem: No one queues for random, everyone just wants DM

Solution: Randoms separate from DM and are populated because of a reward track

(and the same for DM queuing)

Naturally, the better players will end up in DM queues while the less sweaty pvpers will end up in Randoms... making pvp more accessible to newer players as well.

(6) Utilize your art team to create a variety of rewards to unlock behind various achievements.

I think that the Trebuchet emote was a cool addition. It gives you a little unlockable for a a certain achievement. PVP would be a lot more rewarding if there was a lot more emotes, mementos, skins, polymorphs, major/minor adornments, hats, and costumes to unlock in a similar manner. The goal is clear/direct and very easy to accomplish...

Yet we don't have much of those achievable via battlegrounds.

Examples:
-Get 5million heals in a single Deathmatch as a Warden to get a Spirit Deer Non-Combat Pet
-Capture 100 Relics to receive "Aegis Sprinter" title or something and Winged Boots Motif
-Hold the ChaosBall in 30 different matches to get a "Iron body" skin type
-Kill 1000 players as a Sorcerer in Deathmatches to receive a "Arcane Throne" for your house or something
-etc... etc... etc....
-Earn a mount for completing ALL the battlegrounds achievements!

To make sure you could effectively target these rewards, give us the option to queue for specific gametypes. With a reward track you would attract lots of players to battlegrounds and no gametype would be empty of queues because each gametype would have attraction via rewards.

---

Anyways - I could keep writing out lots of possibilities.... all of them would need to be refined anyways in terms of logistics and details - and they would need testing...

The TL;DR is.... please don't just set us aside again... please communicate with us.... please collaborate with us.... we are willing to keep testing things out if you need more data... we are happy to! .... us PVP players are so passionate about this game and will accommodate anything you need to try out for us to see improvement.

for the "foreseeable future" scares me without a statement that you are committed to the future of PvP and Battlegrounds.

I felt so much hope for 2022 from your recent Twitter posts, you obviously love your job and we love you, but now I am worried the same level off communication on PvP topics will continue.

PhoenixGrey

Time to bring out the most toxic builds and spawn camping all the objective players. Lots of potatoes to fry

Pain In The Axe

In order to Increase the population and participation of Battlegrounds we are going to need to overhaul it and add consistent New Content(Such as new maps/game modes) as well as incentivizing the new content with a whole new reward system that can be either purely cosmetic or offer a great potential for financial gain. A new skill line added as a reward that increases as you win battlegrounds would be another good method. Bottom line Battlegrounds need more content for it to be worth it for people start playing again.

Eevee_42

Backpedaling to the worst queue option in battlegrounds is the last straw for me, and if I had to guess, most of the dedicated BG players who are remaining. After two years of this, we are just tired. Deathmatch was the last crumb of fun pvp left in this game. Since this is the last change ZOS intends to do for the foreseeable future, I have a feeling that they’re done listening to us. I’m done with ESO now, but it was fun while it lasted.

gariondavey

Noerra wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

First off, thanks to everyone for participating in all the Battlegrounds queue tests over the past few months, including the most recent addition of Deathmatch-only queues over winter break. We were able to gather a lot of data from these tests regarding Battlegrounds participation and ultimately found it did not significantly affect the participation and population, and also took into account the feedback received about the majority of Battleground games being Deathmatch. We did see the suggestions for adding additional queue options and considered those as well, but doing so would splinter the Battlegrounds population too much and would lead to much longer queue times; we want to ensure the healthiest population and player experience. As such, we are making the call to remove the Deathmatch-only queue option.

Starting in Update 33, the default option for Battleground queues will be “Solo Random” and the dropdown selection will have “Group Random”. Remember, the group queue will take solo, duo, trio and full groups of players, but the solo queue will only include players that queued solo. All games modes will be in both of these queues.

This will be the last change we make to Battleground queues for the foreseeable future. Thanks again for partaking in these tests and aiding us in gathering very valuable feedback.

Thanks for the Update, @ZOS_GinaBruno !

I would be super honored if you would take the time to read my post below. This is honest feedback and is in no way a criticism of anyone's character or an emotional tantrum about pvp. (I'm sorry you guys have to deal with so much of that lol!)

(1) I'm worried that "last change we make for the foreseeable future" means that you are going to ignore the pvp playerbase. We would love some continued communication and collaboration for the improvement of ESO pvp and ESO as a whole.

I would like to give some feedback as a player who loves pvp, loves elderscrolls lore, and loves mmorpgs and wants to see ESO (my favorite game) thrive and flourish in 2022 and beyond.

(2) Respectfully, I don't know if the staff is playing BGs and PvP themselves, but it is my speculation that perhaps you are making these decisions based off the numbers/statistics/data only without having personally (amongst the staff) put in hundreds of hours of pvp queuing to have a first hand experience of what it is like to be a pvp player.

The same way players can only speculate about the dev team and the decisions they have to make, I wonder if the staff is disconnected from the daily player experience in a similar way.

So for this point, my concern is that you are viewing Data and Statistics as a viable means of communication and collaboration with the player base.

Would you empathize with me for a second and reflect on some times where people thought they understood you and your issues based of a statistic or some generalization without talking with you directly? This is how we, as the pvp community, feel.

So I urge you to not set the pvp community aside again because you found a decision that you think is satisfactory for the "foreseeable future" - I believe if you and your team could make a platform for more open communication with the pvp community we could create some wonderful things!

You might be surprised to find out that the pvp community is a lot more wholesome than you might think, it has been my observation that the toxic expressions from the pvp community towards the devs is mostly about not feeling their voices are heard. Being quiet and polite seems to go largely ignore which is why frustration grows and the means to achieve attention turns into louder and more blatant expression.

(3) I'm not surprised at all with this outcome. Without having DM queuing for a long time, of course that's what people are going to flock to.

Beyond DM queuing being the "new and shiny" thing, it is simply more rewarding as it takes less time to complete a DM match compared to some of the other game modes that can drag on.

When it comes to completing BG quests and accumulating alliance points, it is simply more efficient to queue DM.

In addition to this, those that have higher mmr and are dedicated to mastery of the game and it's combat system want to test themselves in combat rather than chasing down speedy peeps and chonker tanks.

We appreciate the testing you have done because it makes us feel like you haven't forgotten about us... yet at the same time it feels like you are examining our elbow when we have an issue with out knees. What I mean is, it feels like there is a huge disconnect with actually knowing, from a first hand experience, what is wrong with PvP.

It's a clear demonstration that there could be better communication.

I've been following you on twitter, Gina, and am very pleased to see you are more passionate than ever to better communicate with the ESO player base this year!

But at the same time... again ... this decision to not continue to collaborate with us on finding a BG system that makes both of us happy as you are setting this down "for the foreseeable future" has me worried again that we are going to get the same lack off communication we have been getting over the years.

(4)It sounds like, from your post, that a big part of this whole experiment was to cultivate a healthy population. If this is the core goal then I would make a suggestion.

First off I'll just say if you wanted to gather data on what gametype was most popular, you should have rotated the BGs every week to see that... one week only DM, next week only Relics, etc....

You would have seen which BGs people were "meh" about and which ones people were "woohoo!" about. That would be useful data that could help you strategize making a decision on how to manage the queuing system imo.

I agree that switching back to random queuing only is the best decision for the time being as BGs don't seem to have been any more popular than before... and switching back to random would ensure other gametypes are not neglected.

But, Gina ... this doesn't solve anything... we are right where we started with no statement from you that you are committed to working with us to create a pvp bg queuing system we are both happy with... instead your statement is telling us you are reverting back to the previous way with no future plans or testing... This isn't an improvement, it is just more "shuffling the surface" rather than making a deep change in the quest for improvement.

Yes, you are right that option queueing would create "splintering" as you called it - but only if you do so without rewarding each gametype!

The problem with PvP population is that there is no goals for us to pursue that feel meaningful or reward our efforts.

Imagine you are an Athlete on an Olympic team and you practice everyday with no possibility of actually testing yourself and getting rewarded with a medal. Unless you live for the daily activity itself, there is no reason to be passionate and dedicated.

We need goals to pursue, Gina. The Class Balance is SO good right now and ESO combat is a one of a kind masterpiece. We pvp every day because we love it, but like the analogy above, unless we live for the Mastery itself, there is no reason to Queue BGs daily without a goal in sight.

So if populating Battlegrounds is the issue you were seeking to improve with the queuing system , I can guarantee you success if you give us a reward track.

And I mean much more than simply titles like "battlegrounds butcher" or motifs you get in the mail.....

If you want people to flood the Battlegrounds there are lots of options you could do.

Let me list a few below as (5) and (6)

(5) Make MMR visible - Having a number to push higher is it's own challenge and reward. It's a good feeling seeing your number improve because it means that you yourself are improving... it's also good feedback for us as players if we don't see it go higher because we can take that information and try out different strategies or builds that are more efficient.

This would get your already BG queuing players to queue more often increasing population in BGs.

You could reward players who reach a High MMR with a Title and Mount or something too.

There might be some people that feel upset about a reward that is attainable via pvp... but hey, a lot of people also don't want to do trials so those people won't ever get the sunspire mount and skin. Why can't pvp players have a cool unlockable too! I actually think it's a good thing that each part of the game rewards something unique!

I would say go one step further and bring back Deathmatch Queuing and Radom Queuing, only this time take DM queuing out of Random...

Make Random and DM have separate visible MMR rating and give a unique reward track to each!

Example:

I'm a player that likes Objective-based Battlegrounds so I queue for Randoms a lot... I see that at 400-700 mmr I get a title, 700-1000 I get a Skin, 1000-1300 I get a Costume, 1300-1600 I get a weapon style bundle, 1600-1900 Another title + Armor style, 1900-2200 a Mount!

(not that exactly of course but just an example)

And because those rewards are visible to me, I'm going to want to queue up over and over and get better at that type of gameplay to unlock those rewards!

The problem: No one queues for random, everyone just wants DM

Solution: Randoms separate from DM and are populated because of a reward track

(and the same for DM queuing)

Naturally, the better players will end up in DM queues while the less sweaty pvpers will end up in Randoms... making pvp more accessible to newer players as well.

(6) Utilize your art team to create a variety of rewards to unlock behind various achievements.

I think that the Trebuchet emote was a cool addition. It gives you a little unlockable for a a certain achievement. PVP would be a lot more rewarding if there was a lot more emotes, mementos, skins, polymorphs, major/minor adornments, hats, and costumes to unlock in a similar manner. The goal is clear/direct and very easy to accomplish...

Yet we don't have much of those achievable via battlegrounds.

Examples:
-Get 5million heals in a single Deathmatch as a Warden to get a Spirit Deer Non-Combat Pet
-Capture 100 Relics to receive "Aegis Sprinter" title or something and Winged Boots Motif
-Hold the ChaosBall in 30 different matches to get a "Iron body" skin type
-Kill 1000 players as a Sorcerer in Deathmatches to receive a "Arcane Throne" for your house or something
-etc... etc... etc....
-Earn a mount for completing ALL the battlegrounds achievements!

To make sure you could effectively target these rewards, give us the option to queue for specific gametypes. With a reward track you would attract lots of players to battlegrounds and no gametype would be empty of queues because each gametype would have attraction via rewards.

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Anyways - I could keep writing out lots of possibilities.... all of them would need to be refined anyways in terms of logistics and details - and they would need testing...

The TL;DR is.... please don't just set us aside again... please communicate with us.... please collaborate with us.... we are willing to keep testing things out if you need more data... we are happy to! .... us PVP players are so passionate about this game and will accommodate anything you need to try out for us to see improvement.

for the "foreseeable future" scares me without a statement that you are committed to the future of PvP and Battlegrounds.

I felt so much hope for 2022 from your recent Twitter posts, you obviously love your job and we love you, but now I am worried the same level off communication on PvP topics will continue.

Long [snip] post but very good one. I love you! I wish @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_Kevin would read something like this

[edited for profanity bypass]

jaws343

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Time to bring out the most toxic builds and spawn camping all the objective players. Lots of potatoes to fry

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