Nice job buffing ball groups

Marcus_Aurelius

They really needed a sostantial buff cause they are so underpowered.
Now with the range bug to put an inevitable detonation on them you have to basically go face to face, really easy to survive a close encounter with a ball group.

Welcome to the ball group heaven!

Keep up the good work ZoS.

Aquatorch

lol... PvP is a giant joke this patch. There are no more "fights" anymore. Now it's just combo shot kills from stealth. Look at Pariah for example. Purple jewelry is selling for 400k gold now and even that's not enough to keep you alive.

Tigor

With the activation of proc sets it is also made easier again to farm points like some groups and solo players are doing, if they know what sets to use. With the current number of sets and different combinations to make a build, the gaps are to large. I think It would be better to have a list of proc sets that can be used in Cyrodiil.

Having less sets would give better options to players who are not following media like twitch, discord, you tube e.g., were succesful builds are shared.

In short to much complexity and stress in the game from making choices.

ResidentContrarian

Aquatorch wrote: »

lol... PvP is a giant joke this patch. There are no more "fights" anymore. Now it's just combo shot kills from stealth. Look at Pariah for example. Purple jewelry is selling for 400k gold now and even that's not enough to keep you alive.

% reduction always has and always will work better vs. gank attempts. Players are better building for % reduction and massive healing instead of wasting time with a set like pariah IMO.

However, I have a full gold set of that and would love to sell it for a few million gold, so let me stop...

ShortTripToHell

Tigor wrote: »

With the activation of proc sets it is also made easier again to farm points like some groups and solo players are doing, if they know what sets to use. With the current number of sets and different combinations to make a build, the gaps are to large. I think It would be better to have a list of proc sets that can be used in Cyrodiil.

Having less sets would give better options to players who are not following media like twitch, discord, you tube e.g., were succesful builds are shared.

In short to much complexity and stress in the game from making choices.

Don't forget it is an MMO, min maxing is a big part of the game. My unpopular opinion I guess but if I put a lot of thought in my build and min max everything, shouldn't I get rewarded? Look at other MMO's there's websites dedicated to this...

And I think if you would ask builds from ppl ( ball-groups, solo players.. whatever ), I think they would share it. I would..

Tommy_The_Gun

Aquatorch wrote: »

lol... PvP is a giant joke this patch. There are no more "fights" anymore. Now it's just combo shot kills from stealth.

I was in IC recently and odd things were happening. I was cloaked & invisible on my nb and yet I was Incaped 2 or 3 times even though I was invisible / not detect. I am not noob (I play since 2014) and yet I don't know how it was possible to achieve. It did not looked like it was lag or something. I was in a place that was not obvious to begin with, so enemy could possibly not know that, and yet a single target ability was an opener. Normally, it would be de-cloak with detect potion effect (and then single target) or AOE...

Also it is worth mentioning that NBs were invisible too and they only appeared after initial attack.

I don't want to say it, but it looked to me like some kind of exploit that allows to see & attack invisible enemy (with single target ability) or some kind of cheat. Maybe it is some kind of bugged AOE proc set or something. Idk.

^ Unless cloak is so useless & unreliable this patch that it is more or less a cosmetic skill

xylena_lazarow

I think it's more that they keep nerfing pugs and lowering the floor. Bring back un-purgeable siege.

Satiar

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I think it's more that they keep nerfing pugs and lowering the floor. Bring back un-purgeable siege.

Oh god no. How could you take a keep?

xylena_lazarow

Satiar wrote: »

Oh god no. How could you take a keep?

Kill their siege operators, bring down multiple walls on opposite sides of the keep, like we did when you couldn't just stand in siege healing and purging through it. I'd also settle for gutting cross healing, purge spam, and siege bubble mitigation, but hey, we want buffs not nerfs right?

Marcus_Aurelius

I would love to see this, more strategy, less exploit of broken mechanics.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

The issue is that nerfing things like cross healing, purge spam and other mitigation just makes it harder for those who already struggle. Sure the performance of high end groups might suffer a little but nothing in comparison to lower end groups and pugs.

This has been the same cycle for the last 4+ years. Nerfing groups leads to less groups, less ability to combat good groups and a higher skill difference to those who try and adapt and those who dont.


Additionally 'taking down multiple walls' etc just leads to longer keep fights and more lag. I'm not sure that's what people are really going to enjoy.

xylena_lazarow

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Nerfing groups leads to less groups, less ability to combat good groups and a higher skill difference to those who try and adapt and those who dont.

Do you feel the current floor/ceiling gap in large scale PvP is healthy for the game? If not, how would you address it? Watching your group against pugs, it's like elite soldiers with machine guns against unarmed peasants. Siege used to level the playing field, but now does very little against a skilled group prepared to counter it.

Tigor

Apart from set optimization, there are also the skill, synergy and stack optimizations, and now we are again at the stage, do we all want, or need to play like that?

@ShortTripToHell I am not going, or will not ask raid members, to spend hours of farming to make "millimeter" adjustments, that is something my boss at work is expecting from me, and ofc we are also not philatelists . Everyone in my group is welcome to play as he wants, and I am open to make adjustments when needed to, and sharing builds is okay as well.

@Marcus_Aurelius you are right that the latest adjustments are all not in favour of a relaxed gaming night.

Sandman929

I actually think the Blackwood changes do more to empower glass cannon bombers against a coordinated group, I don't know if it's enough to level anything, but I think bombers, especially 2-3 working together could really cause some problems out there for ball groups.

Marcus_Aurelius

I think ball groups have already adapted, I don't remember seeing them with a minimum of 35k health.
Now in Rawenwatch I dont see any of their member with less health.

DrSlaughtr

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Aquatorch wrote: »

lol... PvP is a giant joke this patch. There are no more "fights" anymore. Now it's just combo shot kills from stealth.

I was in IC recently and odd things were happening. I was cloaked & invisible on my nb and yet I was Incaped 2 or 3 times even though I was invisible / not detect. I am not noob (I play since 2014) and yet I don't know how it was possible to achieve. It did not looked like it was lag or something. I was in a place that was not obvious to begin with, so enemy could possibly not know that, and yet a single target ability was an opener. Normally, it would be de-cloak with detect potion effect (and then single target) or AOE...

Also it is worth mentioning that NBs were invisible too and they only appeared after initial attack.

I don't want to say it, but it looked to me like some kind of exploit that allows to see & attack invisible enemy (with single target ability) or some kind of cheat. Maybe it is some kind of bugged AOE proc set or something. Idk.

^ Unless cloak is so useless & unreliable this patch that it is more or less a cosmetic skill

This unfortunately happens even on console so it's not an exploit. What likely happened is they pulled you out of stealth but on your end the game didn't communicate this by opening your eye. Not sure why it happens but it does.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Nerfing groups leads to less groups, less ability to combat good groups and a higher skill difference to those who try and adapt and those who dont.

Do you feel the current floor/ceiling gap in large scale PvP is healthy for the game? If not, how would you address it? Watching your group against pugs, it's like elite soldiers with machine guns against unarmed peasants. Siege used to level the playing field, but now does very little against a skilled group prepared to counter it.

I agree with you that it is bad currently but I don't agree with the suggested solutions. The reason it is bad now is that groups were nerfed over and over again historically which lead to many groups quitting because it became too difficult to run unless you focused on optimization and playing at a very high level. Not to mention in combination with the lag. If it is not fun to run in a group it tends to lead to whole groups quitting rather than players changing their playstyle as generally the players who play in groups like mine aren't interested in just zergsurf gameplay constantly and we log on specifically to play in groups a few times per week.

All of this means that there is very little competition for players who play in a very coordinated group. In the same way that there isn't really competition for groups which make entire faction stacks or those which only run in off-hours which leads to these imbalances you are seeing now.

rk1101320

game is designed to play in group. what we want is just a game that is lagg free

ShortTripToHell

Tigor wrote: »

Apart from set optimization, there are also the skill, synergy and stack optimizations, and now we are again at the stage, do we all want, or need to play like that?

@ShortTripToHell I am not going, or will not ask raid members, to spend hours of farming to make "millimeter" adjustments, that is something my boss at work is expecting from me, and ofc we are also not philatelists . Everyone in my group is welcome to play as he wants, and I am open to make adjustments when needed to, and sharing builds is okay as well.

@Marcus_Aurelius you are right that the latest adjustments are all not in favour of a relaxed gaming night.

Man you have no idea, I completly agree with you. You should never expect or play other then how you want to. BUT I enjoy with my raidgroup doing this. Every milimeter, every stone turning 20 times to see if it would fall differently. I love these forums, I am one of the few but all complain. Procs gone complain, procs back hell same ppl complain. No guys we're not turning off all skills, no we're not disbanding all groups, NOO. Ball groups will adapt to every change ZOS makes, they will stay. Why? The game allows 3th party voice, it allows addons to coordinate, it allows grouping/guilds. Trust me on this, nerf purge? Nerg healing? Nerf I dunno what?? No worries, I WILL find a way to play (until a better MMO comes).

techyeshic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I think it's more that they keep nerfing pugs and lowering the floor. Bring back un-purgeable siege.

This is crazy regardless; but especially now when you don't even see the siege more times than not and the Zerg stacks can outnumber you at least 2 to 1 and still set up mass siege. You don't have enough people to just go siege another spot

xylena_lazarow

rk1101320 wrote: »

what we want is just a game that is lagg free

This game will never be lag free. Thinking they will ever fix the lag is even crazier than me asking for un-purgeable siege. The other day, I was hitting 4 guys on a resource flag with a combo of meatbag and scattershot, and they were just sitting in the double siege AoE healing through it. They eventually came after me 4v1, were unable to kill me, then left the resource. This game is insane and probably broken beyond repair. I hope they can at least figure out a way to raise the floor so that pugs don't have to faction stack to stop 12 guys from running the walls of an unflagged keep for hours on end.

sMuggle

I'll give you an example, that's not under game server <> client control.

Xfinity aka Comcast as an example, puts a 2000ms (2 seconds) bufferbloat programmed into their modems on purpose to make watching streaming videos "better" - this results in bad performance for gaming tho. Even if your game says you have a 50-75ms ping, remember ping is small data (32bytes) and does not reflect on real time data, especially during combat/battles large or small as they may be. If you use addons like combat metrics, you can see the combat logs and delays / desyncs between skills queued and actually going off.

That said, by the time your client shows you were detected, you were already killed on their client - I've seen this many times over the years. You're hit by several 1s cast time attacks( 4+ dizzy swings), stacked with executions (you die to their "combo" in 1 second on your client) before you even see the person attacking you - Many tend to say "that person is hacking" or "they are using macros" etc.. Truth is desync / client <> server delay.

You can test your bufferbloat using html5 VOIP speed test sites or DSLREPORTS.com

Madhatten512

Tigor wrote: »

With the activation of proc sets it is also made easier again to farm points like some groups and solo players are doing, if they know what sets to use. With the current number of sets and different combinations to make a build, the gaps are to large. I think It would be better to have a list of proc sets that can be used in Cyrodiil.

Having less sets would give better options to players who are not following media like twitch, discord, you tube e.g., were succesful builds are shared.

In short to much complexity and stress in the game from making choices.

So your saying that you cant be bothered to look into theory crafting a decent build because youtube and twitch is just to much for you so the solution is to remove sets from other players that do take the time to do such things. Hmmmm that is something. Did you ever think that maybe you could do the same thing that all these magical people that can operate this wonderful world called the internet are doing and find yourself a build? Now I know its asking a lot when really ZOS should just remove a bunch of sets just for you.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

sMuggle wrote: »

I'll give you an example, that's not under game server <> client control.

Xfinity aka Comcast as an example, puts a 2000ms (2 seconds) bufferbloat programmed into their modems on purpose to make watching streaming videos "better" - this results in bad performance for gaming tho. Even if your game says you have a 50-75ms ping, remember ping is small data (32bytes) and does not reflect on real time data, especially during combat/battles large or small as they may be. If you use addons like combat metrics, you can see the combat logs and delays / desyncs between skills queued and actually going off.

That said, by the time your client shows you were detected, you were already killed on their client - I've seen this many times over the years. You're hit by several 1s cast time attacks( 4+ dizzy swings), stacked with executions (you die to their "combo" in 1 second on your client) before you even see the person attacking you - Many tend to say "that person is hacking" or "they are using macros" etc.. Truth is desync / client <> server delay.

You can test your bufferbloat using html5 VOIP speed test sites or DSLREPORTS.com

This is done with Casting normal blast bones and using Res ulti on 3 corpses. Its not some delay issue its a designed mechanic of the game.

Tigor

Madhatten512 wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

With the activation of proc sets it is also made easier again to farm points like some groups and solo players are doing, if they know what sets to use. With the current number of sets and different combinations to make a build, the gaps are to large. I think It would be better to have a list of proc sets that can be used in Cyrodiil.

Having less sets would give better options to players who are not following media like twitch, discord, you tube e.g., were succesful builds are shared.

In short to much complexity and stress in the game from making choices.

So your saying that you cant be bothered to look into theory crafting a decent build because youtube and twitch is just to much for you so the solution is to remove sets from other players that do take the time to do such things. Hmmmm that is something. Did you ever think that maybe you could do the same thing that all these magical people that can operate this wonderful world called the internet are doing and find yourself a build? Now I know its asking a lot when really ZOS should just remove a bunch of sets just for you.

Personally I prefer self designed builds, or else sometimes to google for builds, and come in the course of time to conclusions to make some adaptations, builds are also obsoleted in no time without even noticing. Time is really flying by in this game.

Your are right that watching all those clips about builds would take to much time, because what are the validated sources, everyone can put it there, and a lot is outdated. Btw I play the game and don't broadcast.

What I meant about less sets is that it would bring players closer to each other, in the sense of understanding of the game and mechanisms. It is not only about me, it is everyone. An other advantage would be that exploited (unexplainable) advantages could be pointed quicker to a rootcause. Correct me here when I am wrong.

neferpitou73

ZOS buffed ball groups...because there was an accidental bug in the game?

I'm usually the last person to defend ZOS but come on, this wasn't intentional. Don't get me wrong this bug needs to be fixed ASAP but to act like it's an intentional buff is ridiculous.

Master_Kas

Tigor wrote: »

With the activation of proc sets it is also made easier again to farm points like some groups and solo players are doing, if they know what sets to use. With the current number of sets and different combinations to make a build, the gaps are to large. I think It would be better to have a list of proc sets that can be used in Cyrodiil.

Having less sets would give better options to players who are not following media like twitch, discord, you tube e.g., were succesful builds are shared.

In short to much complexity and stress in the game from making choices.

No thanks. We already have months with the same boring sets. Now it's your turn to wait for U31 when zos adds a no proc campaign you can dwell in.

Marcus_Aurelius

neferpitou73 wrote: »

ZOS buffed ball groups...because there was an accidental bug in the game?

I'm usually the last person to defend ZOS but come on, this wasn't intentional. Don't get me wrong this bug needs to be fixed ASAP but to act like it's an intentional buff is ridiculous.

That was just a joke, no one thinks ZoS made that on purpose.
But the result is that fighting ball grops now is a lot harder.
They already rely on broken mechanics and one more broke mechanic helps them a lot.

sMuggle

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

This is done with Casting normal blast bones and using Res ulti on 3 corpses. Its not some delay issue its a designed mechanic of the game.

Ah I see you're right totally forgot about the ultimate. But I have 100s of examples - noCP BattleGround below;

25k DPS, [active time 1 second] - remind you noCP BG




555ms desync

CrustyCroco

What's wrong about the first 3?
And desync in eso isn't that surprising tbh.

Starshadw

I'm just going to say it: PvP was a more enjoyable experience overall when proc sets were disabled. We still had great fights. People were still able to get plenty of kills. Re-enabling them (even with the slight nerf) has simply reverted us to where we were before. It's just not fun. It's tedious and tiresome.

If proc sets are going to stay, then please @ZOS_BrianWheeler, at the very least, remove the heal recovery from Battle Spirit. The heal recovery never should have been added in while also throwing proc sets back into play. At least give folks more of a chance to live through the proc sets and burst damage garbage.