What makes a fake tank fake?

Elrond87

im more tired of the fake healers, forces me to keep changing set up for pale order, id like to see more of a nerf on pale order so it cant heal with 3 others in group well enough to not need a healer but still shine if solo, i joined 4 random vet dungeons other day all 4 had a fake healer one was a pvper with 42k health as a healer the other 3 was dd on some dlc vet dungeon

dmnqwk

ESO is very unique in that the only necessity to tank is 'slot a taunt'. Obviously it'd be nicer if you also try to improve the group dps, but that's more an issue with people not willing to tank than it is to be a tank.

It's lovely that you can parse 100k+ and do 50k on the boss... but if you're a fake tank that 50k slips to 35k because you kite the boss, you dont get to flank, you have no 11k penetration from puncture and crusher backbar... so now you're looking at 35k*3 instead of 50k*2 + 10k from the tank.... aka an overall loss.

On top of this, you stress other people out due to being an inconsiderate person - forcing them to have a worse time running, simply because you're being lazy. It's very rare to see 'fake tanks' actually play a real tank, then go fake because they hate seeing low damage... because honestly, it happens a lot less than you claim it does in content where you need the damage. If you're running a normal rnd then you can set your tank up to hit 20-30k single target with 33k resists and the master sword and board healing you and not even worry about things, while keeping the boss still and helping the group out!

On the topic of 'group buffs' buffing 2 people versus buffing 8 needs to be a consideration, and in circumstances where you're doing more than 20% of the group's damage as the tank, it's often the wrong choice to buff their damage with warhorn when you could just slam a meteor down.

If the tank and healer do 5k each and the 2 dps do 10k each that's 30k, yet sometimes you dont see that... which is not an excuse to be a fake tank because you're not helping the dps learn how to contribute to the group. Help don't hinder groups.

Snow_White

My general opinion is that if you slot a taunt, hold agro and don’t die, you’re a real tank, regardless of what else you do.

Case in point, vCR Mini-Tank. No one is calling that guy a fake tank just because he’s spec’d as a hybrid DPS.

IMO, full tank vs hybrid tank/DPS is a trade off. If the DDs are good, I think things go faster with a real tank that can stack and buff/debuff so things get cleaved down. It’s certainly quicker than 4 DDs running around trying to 1v1 everything while it runs out of their AOE.

On the other end, if the DDs aren’t good then it’s nice to have a tank that can bring some DPS to the fore and kill things quicker.

I think we’re at the point where the definition of tank needs to evolve. We’ve been complaining for years that it sucks tanking because tanks don’t do any damage… and now we have the means to do damage and people are complaining because some tanks are spending too much time doing damage.

Tank = Hold agro, don’t die. What you do with the remainder of your time is up to you.

IMO.

DeadCrow777

I like to experiment with tanking on solo dungeon runs to see what's possible. I'm using Tormentor, Merciless Charge, Vengeance Leech, and Chokethorn with a Bleed load out with my Warden, Blue Lotus for health, Growing Swarm, Stampede for Taunt, and Carve to stack on the bleed with Bull Netch to sustain Stam. If all goes right I'm stacking 3 bleeds and taunting with Minor Vuln thrown in. Works well for now soloing but I'll need to test in a group to see if it really does tank and not fake it accidentally

MidniteOwl1913

Brrrofski wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Mostly when someone says a fake tank it is someone who is DPS or PVPer who thinks that are too good to wait in queue for DPS and just want the massive XP and transmutes you get for daily random. The really bad ones not only don't have a taunt, they don't know the mechanics and treat every dungeon like an XP grind. But don't realize all the adds don't just pile up like regular grinds so you can nuke them all in a corner.

This isn't just fake tanks, fake DPS who are impatient do the same thing. After years of tanking, and being able to quickly go from one trash pack to the next, pulling everything into a pile and having the team drop literally 2 aoes each and kill the whole pile in one rotation. Now I got these ? saying the piles should be bigger and running past me thinking they can be more efficient and just scattering adds all over the place that the rest of the team has to chase and kill one by one.

I think there is a massive amount of impatient toxic people who got all their experience doing shortcuts like XP grinds, and don't care about mechanics or other people at all. They just want XP, gear, transmutes, so they can get back to cyro, BG or trial dummy and brag about how great their DPS is. But don't want to really have fun, experience the game, or interact with anyone in a positive way.

And actually it is so easy, for any stam DPS you have just put on leeching, azureblight, slot inner fire, pierce armor, silver leash, caltrops. And you can do all the taunting, pulling and even explode rooms of adds. Simple really, any boss who has conal aoe/heavy taunt then point away from team. Pull all ranged adds into pile. Ranged taunt melee adds to come to you (DPS let adds get piled up then drop aoes). DPS/Healer if monster aggros on you don't run around room, bring to tank pile so they can taunt and take off you. Following a few simple techniques can make all dungeon encounters pretty easy actually.

BTW anyone who is interested in learning how to tank and mechanics should check out Xynodegaming. He is the only streamer/youtuber I've seen who has the balls to constantly do Vet random dungeons and DLCs with pugs and teaches a lot about tanking and other things.

Or some of us have done Spindleclutch one 6843974 times and don't want to pull 4 adds at a time.

Why is it toxic because I want something done quickly? People overuse the word toxic waaaaay too much.

It's "toxic" because it's not about you. There are three other people in that dungeon. If you queue for a tank you should willing and able to do that.

J18696

You simply just wait to long to justify not queuing up with a fake role we have a massive lack of healers and tanks and people don't want to wait in a half hour plus que todo dungeons they have done 4000 times and take less time todo than wait for a que

ccfeeling

Weak tank counts as fake tank or not ?

When you enter vet Lair of Maarselok , the tank shows 400 CP , I know I can't complete the dungeon , we may have to re-que the tank at the middle of run .

Most DLC dungeons are already nerfed , but tanking skills and knowledge are still required .

I miss the original DLC dungeon difficulty

Narvuntien

The role of the tank is pretty clear.
1. Taunt the boss
2. Stand still
3. Don't die.
You fail at one of those three you are a fake tank. To be fair some mechanics can cause the tank to die if not handled correctly by the rest of the group but I still feel it is a failure on the part of the tank not to have communicated it properly.

Daoin

for me personally fake tanks and healers in any pug usually just make the dungeon unenjoyable, also its nice to leave those roles for real tanks and healers especially in normal mode if they are new to the roles and want a place and setting practice those roles, 9 times out of 10 anyway the fake runs off and leaves the rest of the group behind ignoring all mobs on the way to the boss, if i happen to have lead in those groups i always activate a kick vote so the group can decide for themselves if they want to play along with it. even though normal is easy enough now solo, in groups i still try to give the tank and healer time to do thier thing or the group thier quests before i begin to dd. and as a dd i always queue as a dd because theres always something i can be doing during the wait time anyway, but i guess eventually over the years i have learned that fakes in the daily random normal can be a bit useful, admittedly selfish of me but if im really tired and all i need to do is light attack a couple of mobs on the way through then so be it ! but by the time a character is DLC level nobody should be queing as a fake anyway knowing there are now DLC's in the mix. even experienced players know that by the time you can make all your own armour sets for below 50 all those dungeons become fairly easy for your role anyway in normal below 50 in any normal dungeon, in the topic of the post i can see where it is totally understandable thats what you wanted to do and had to find 2 more players to join you, but to play it safer i would find a nice guild full of friendlies where you wouldnt need to rely on finding 2 more in a PUG. plus last note in normal dungeons especially none dlc for a real high level tank and healer the mob is already going to be half dead and debuffed for the kill (non boss) once the tank has everything under control anyway. meaning any level of dd can just finish them off i have found. which is about the level all tanks and healers ingame would be and ready for any vet should dd,s stop stealing thier roles in normal one day and then turn toxic on anyone not meeting thier requirements later on. may save them that time later on that they believe they are losing now.

Daoin

Narvuntien wrote: »

The role of the tank is pretty clear.
1. Taunt the boss
2. Stand still
3. Don't die.
You fail at one of those three you are a fake tank. To be fair some mechanics can cause the tank to die if not handled correctly by the rest of the group but I still feel it is a failure on the part of the tank not to have communicated it properly.

1)Taunt: yes 2)stand still: no 3) dont die: probably going to happen alot in some places stood still.

dmnqwk

Daoin wrote: »

For me, personally, fake tanks and healers in any pug will usually make the dungeon unenjoyable,. It's nice to leave those roles for real tanks and healers, especially in normal mode.

If they are new to the roles and want a place and setting practice those roles It doesn't happen enough with fake tanks, because 9 times out of 10 they run off and leaves the rest of the group behind; ignoring all mobs on the way to the boss.
If i happen to have lead in those groups i always activate a kick vote so the group can decide for themselves if they want to play along with it. Even though normal is easy enough now solo, I try to give the tank and healer time to do their thing or to further their quests before I start to DD.

As a dd i always queue as such because theres always something i can be doing during the wait time anyway. I guess eventually over the years I've learnt that fakes in the daily random normal can be a bit useful; admittedly selfish of me but if im really tired and all I need to do is light attack a couple of mobs on the way through then so be it!
But by the time a character is DLC ready nobody should be queing as a fake anyway, knowing there are now DLC's in the mix.

Even experienced players know that by the time you can make all your own armour sets for levelling characters all those dungeons become fairly easy for your role anyway.

In the topic of the post I can see where it is totally understandable that's what you wanted to do and had to find 2 more players to join you; but to play it safer i would find a nice guild full of friendlies where you wouldn't need to rely on finding 2 more in a PUG.
On a final note for high-cp tanks and healers in normal dungeons, especially non-dlc, is that the mobs are going to be half dead and debuffed for the kill (non boss) once the tank has everything under control anyway. meaning any level of dd can just finish them off, in my experience.
To help all tanks and healers ingame prepare for vet-dlc dungeons DDs should stop stealing their roles in normal or turning toxic on anyone not meeting their requirements later on. It may save them that time later on that they believe they are losing now.

Yes, it always pays to give people the opportunity - however I think the systemic issue is that being a tank in ESO means pulling 5-10% of the damage output of a DD, which is way below the 30-50% you find in most MMOs. On top of no threat mechanic and low to negliable damage in normal dungeons leads them to believe every other player in the game is terrible except them and so they must do everything themselves.

Asardes

Lack of taunt and low survivability. When farming normal dungeon I always get my solo DD build I run vMA and vVH with, then replace rearming trap with Inner Rage. Since I'm a DK I also bring buffs and debuffs for the group:
- Noxious Breath - AOE major breach
- Molten Armaments - Major Sorcery & Brutality plus Minor brutality
In some DLC dungeons the bosses and even some trash mobs hit quite hard so I am careful to roll dodge the heavy attacks while keeping them mostly stationary so they don't leave the AOE - I roll into them or around them.

I am yet to receive serious complaints about that, though I got booted from a couple of groups over the years, almost certainly because I was doing too much DPS and ruining their immersion.

PvXGamer

To OP - You held agro, you took hits, and as a bonus, you added considerable DPS to the group. That is not a fake tank, that is a tank optimizing its build while fulfilling its primary role.

A fake tank is someone who queues up as a tank without being able to tank because they did not want to wait for an actual tank to queue up and are unable to keep agro or unwilling to equip a taunt and/or take a hit from a boss. To tank or not to tank, taunting is the question.

A fake healer would be someone who queues without being able to heal the group because they think the queue and/or run will go faster without group heals. To heal or not to heal, healing is the question.

A fake DPS is not exactly a thing since any build can DPS, just some builds are better than others at reducing an opponent's hit points to zero. Every tank and healer can DPS while fulfilling their primary role but that is not their expected primary role. To DPS or not to DPS, facerolling is the question.

In a random queue, if I queued up as a DPS, I am expecting to DPS. I am not expecting to tank or heal as I did not queue up for either of those roles. If you queue for the role, then you are expected to fulfill that role. If you want to queue up as a 'fake' tank or healer, then do that with your premade group of friends where it is a known variable and your group is ready to compensate and adjust for it.

Mr_Stach

Fake DPS = DPS just hoping to get carried while they spend their time in AoEs and then blame others when they are just plain bad

fred4

The proficiency variation of PUGs is huge. Those groups where you carry everything with Brawler and a taunt, while also being the highest damage dealer, they're at the extreme end of the spectrum, but they happen. Mostly people are grateful, because as long as the group succeeds they haven't got a clue who did what. At the other extreme you get people who scrutinize your build and who are only happy if you debuff boss resistances, wear Yolna + a.n.other group buff set, and pull adds to the centre in trash fights in addition to taunting and not dying. That mostly happens in vet DLC dungeons where you're usually better off running a conventional (not Brawler) tank alright. All the same, the opinions you'll run into when people (have cause to) open their mouths range all over the map, both positive and negative. For example I was in a vet Vaults of Madness farming PUG recently, which clearly had a fake tank. When you're motif farming, though, the players tend to be the endgame players for whom survival in a base game dungeon isn't an issue. No one said a thing. I thought it was great. We skipped most bosses and nuked the others. 4 DDs was appropriate to the task at hand.

AvalonRanger

"What makes a fake tank fake?"

No taunt, no self healing, low health, low damage mitigation, and can't control NPC enemy's movement.
That's the fake tank.

And remind this important "manner".

If you try to do fake tank intentionally in random group,
then you can't complain any of matter against your team mate.

Seriously, don't do it. 100% your responsibility.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have closed this topic as it was originally created in April 2021. In many cases, it's better to create a new thread on a topic that you want to discuss as opposed to bumping one that is rather old.

Thank you for your understanding.