What makes a fake tank fake?

BejaProphet

So my daughter wants to do ESO dungeons with me. I’m thrilled. I’m doing a dungeon with her. Period. I want her to have the best experience possible because I want her to love it.

After thinking about all that can go wrong in dungeon finder, and the best way to head it all off, I actually decide to do something I’ve always been against. I queued as a fake tank.

If I went in my serious tank set up it could expose how little she contributed. I didn’t want the group to be mean to her because she couldn’t DPS on her level 10 sorc, and I didn’t want a tank who would let her die due to being a fake tank who would not protect her. So I took my DD set up (which is pretty tanky because it is my tank in all damage gear, food, mundus, and skills), and I just threw inner fire on my bar.

It went wonderfully. I was the highest damage dealer both runs, so we had a great pace. I taunted bosses and anything that I knew I didn’t want pounding on my kid. Nothing could kill me cuz I’m still tanky and using vigor and brawler. But the grouping was trash and I mostly just did damage.

But then I ask myself? Was I a fake tank, or a real one? I did take the dangerous targets after all.

So what makes a tank fake? Was what I did bad when it was motivated by giving others the best run possible?

Brrrofski

Fake tank for most is someone who doesn't hold aggro.

Taunt boss and big adds that hit hard and don't die. Nobody cares beyond that.

I have a few characters setup as essentially DPS but with chunky health and a taunt. Nobody has ever said anything.

zvavi

Everything is relative, so fake tanking is dependent on the difficulty.
Normal : taunt+hold as still as possible + survive
Vet additional requirements: stack things + debuff enemies and buff group

CableBomb

Bro I made a Tank just because I was sick of Fake Tanks while running with my bud. So, in MY experience, a Fake Tank is someone queued as a Tank that doesn't taunt the boss. There is a lot of other stuff that makes a Tank, but when the Fake Tank doesn't taunt the main threats, the entire Dungeon is a [snip] show.

[edited for profanity bypass]

CableBomb

Brrrofski wrote: »

I have a few characters setup as essentially DPS but with chunky health and a taunt. Nobody has ever said anything.

Me too. This is perfectly acceptable as long as they taunt the main threats. A Tank doesn't need Heavy Armor and a gut to absorb damage. A Tank can be a crafty DPS or Healer that holds taunt and doesn't die.

RedMuse

Brrrofski wrote: »

Fake tank for most is someone who doesn't hold aggro.

Taunt boss and big adds that hit hard and don't die. Nobody cares beyond that.

I have a few characters setup as essentially DPS but with chunky health and a taunt. Nobody has ever said anything.

This one is the clincher for me. If you can't even hold aggro you're not a tank, end of. Beyond that we can discuss if they're fake, bad or simply ignorant.

GreenHere

To me a fake tank is someone who claims to be, or queues up as, a tank yet has no intention of actually doing the job. No taunt, no effort to be the one taking the heat in dire situations. Simple as that.

Everything a tank does beyond holding aggro on priority targets is just icing on the cake, imo. And even if they lose aggro on occasion because they're just busy doing their thing, no biggie. If they got no skill that root, snare, pull or otherwise control mobs? No problem, I honestly don't really care about that; it's nice, but non-essential. If the tank dies? Well, I can't say I care too much about that either, long as they were trying to do their job. It's more about the earnest effort and intention, at least for me.

I think you'll find most people who care about the "fake tank issue" in the first place are more concerned with the disrespect and lack of effort that true fakers have for their fellow players, more than having any kind of super high standards for what a tank should live up to. Real tanks that are struggling, trying and failing, dying due to inexperience, etc. almost never get hate for that -- but fake tanks will get hate if they just lied about being a tank so they could cut in line and make no effort at all to fulfill the basic responsibilities of the role.

In short: if you're making an honest effort, you're fine in any group that matters. If people get pissy because you're not the best tank ever despite actually trying to be a good one, screw em! Get a build that works for you in the content you're trying to do, and have fun (without skirting the "social contract" or disrespecting anyone else) and you're good to go!

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Lack of a taunt. That's it. If they have a taunt (and use it), they arent a fake tank. They might be a terribly horrendous tank, but if they are taunting, they arent fake.

In your scenario, you were NOT a fake tank.

driosketch

Fake Tank = No Taunt and/or lacks survivability.

A DPS with a taunt and survivability is what might be considered a Hybrid Tank, similar to an Off or Secondary Tank that are sometimes used in trials.

redspecter23

If you are able to taunt any particular boss or mob in the dungeon you're in without dying, you aren't fake, at least in my opinion. You may still be a bad tank or sub par or even just not good enough for harder content, but at least you're not faking it at that point.

Bonus fake points if you're not only not a tank, but horrible at dps and constantly dying by pulling too many things and zerging ahead of the group.

colossalvoids

This thread made me feel better lol. I was never queueing as a tank before the last update so kinda felt like cheating the queue but I guess no one really cares if I'm just pale order DD with inner rage and silver leash.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

colossalvoids wrote: »

This thread made me feel better lol. I was never queueing as a tank before the last update so kinda felt like cheating the queue but I guess no one really cares if I'm just pale order DD with inner rage and silver leash.

Silver Leash makes you better than most, Haha. I drop a DOT for inner fire all the time on my DDs and queue as a tank, at least for normal. Have yet to find a normal dungeon I can't tank effectively. And the reality is, we clear way faster than if I were to go on my actual tank because the DPS would fall significantly. All the mob stacking in the world isnt going to help 2 GF DPS pulling 13k between them.

If you have ESO+, I wouldn't recommend this approach for a random vet dungeon, because this approach will fail on some of the Vet DLCs, but pretty sure that goes without saying.

TwinLamps

no taunt
no debuffs
no warhorn
boss not kept as still as possible

BejaProphet

Not the point of the thread, but...

I truly believe that in the presence of a good group a tank chaining, stacking and keeping group still does way more for team DPS than a DD with a taunt will.

the1andonlyskwex

I like to think my bar is pretty low for tanks, but in addition to holding aggro, I also expect them to avoid kiting bosses out of ground AoE. I've had far too many vet dungeons go badly because the "tank" kept dodge rolling all over the place, forcing the DDs to use sub-optimal rotations.

colossalvoids

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

This thread made me feel better lol. I was never queueing as a tank before the last update so kinda felt like cheating the queue but I guess no one really cares if I'm just pale order DD with inner rage and silver leash.

Silver Leash makes you better than most, Haha. I drop a DOT for inner fire all the time on my DDs and queue as a tank, at least for normal. Have yet to find a normal dungeon I can't tank effectively. And the reality is, we clear way faster than if I were to go on my actual tank because the DPS would fall significantly. All the mob stacking in the world isnt going to help 2 GF DPS pulling 13k between them.

If you have ESO+, I wouldn't recommend this approach for a random vet dungeon, because this approach will fail on some of the Vet DLCs, but pretty sure that goes without saying.

Yeah random normal it is, wouldn't risk bringing randoms down in vet if I'd forget some mechanic after not being in some of them for months and years, not even doing group vet content much nowadays after my group disbanded on GH prog months ago lol. Same with replacing a dot with taunt and channeled with leash as got used to it from doing arenas.

Also found it the most toxic-less runs ever, probably because even with no damage from actual dd's everything melts without a chance for anyone to start complaining about someone in the group.

GreenHere

BejaProphet wrote: »

Not the point of the thread, but...

I truly believe that in the presence of a good group a tank chaining, stacking and keeping group still does way more for team DPS than a DD with a taunt will.

Depending on the group, sure. With competent damage dealers, a great tank is more valuable than a pseudo-tank most of the time.

But with low-end DDs? No way, man! The best (full, true) tank in the world can't make up for noobs with wet noodle weapons and tickle-sparkle skill casts. For those groups, a strong damage dealer that can really pump out the deeps while keeping taunt is a hero that carries the run.

I know you already clearly implied this @BejaProphet , but I just wanted to say: It's not a justification for rude fake tanks to not slot a taunt just because they can solo the dungeon regardless of what happens to their teammates. And it's also not a bad thing for competent DDs to fill the tank role as long as they can do the minimum. Often flexibility is the best answer, so if you can slide up or down the DPS / Tankiness continuum to suit the situation at hand then that's a good thing in my book. Many situations call for way less tankiness, and benefit hugely from more damage; so a "good fake tank" or a pseudo-tank (that slots a taunt and holds the boss in place) really is the best option in those cases.

It's just that rude fakers use that excuse to be selfish and unhelpful, while totally missing the point of their chosen role -- that's the problem.

CaptainVenom

A fake is a damage that queues as tank in order to cheat the line.

A tank does not taunt enemies, has low resistances and so on isn't a fake tank, but a bad tank.

katorga

TwinLamps wrote: »

no taunt
no debuffs
no warhorn
boss not kept as still as possible

Oh yeah. Boss chasing the tank around is a tell tale sign of a fake tank. Last nite, in a random normal pug in the cauldron, fake tank, fake healer and a very low CP dps. And they tried to speed run it, lol. I had no time to swap skills, gear to take up the slack.

colossalvoids

GreenHere wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Not the point of the thread, but...

I truly believe that in the presence of a good group a tank chaining, stacking and keeping group still does way more for team DPS than a DD with a taunt will.

But with low-end DDs? No way, man! The best (full, true) tank in the world can't make up for noobs with wet noodle weapons and tickle-sparkle skill casts. For those groups, a strong damage dealer that can really pump out the deeps while keeping taunt is a hero that carries the run.

Funny enough it's the reason I have 18 chars without a single tank on my main server. At least half of them started as a tank but poor experience of group dps not able to scratch anything every other run just led me into DD with a taunt route and when fully leveled just stayed as a damage dealer for the rest of existence as I wasn't intended to tank anything but some pledges here and there anyway in a first place.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

BejaProphet wrote: »

Not the point of the thread, but...

I truly believe that in the presence of a good group a tank chaining, stacking and keeping group still does way more for team DPS than a DD with a taunt will.

Absolutely. I have made similar comments and have similiar belief about a good healer compared to 3 DPS. A good healer can buff group damage by nearly as much as a third DPS, but everyone has a much easier time of it.

That said, pretty sure we are talking about groupfinder on normal. In that context, my Mageblade with a taunt (likely doing 75% of Group DPS) is way more helpful (at least from a time standpoint) than my DK tank with all the chains in the world. Haha

Oreyn_Bearclaw

katorga wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

no taunt
no debuffs
no warhorn
boss not kept as still as possible

Oh yeah. Boss chasing the tank around is a tell tale sign of a fake tank. Last nite, in a random normal pug in the cauldron, fake tank, fake healer and a very low CP dps. And they tried to speed run it, lol. I had no time to swap skills, gear to take up the slack.

I disagree. It's the sign of a bad tank. If the boss is chasing him, he is likely taunting it.

No Taunt - Fake Tank
No Debuffs - Poor tank
No Warnhorn - Poor tank
Boss not kept still - BAD tank.

VaranisArano

Fake tanks don't use taunt to hold the boss aggro. And when you point out that they aren't doing the job they queued up for, they refuse to equip a taunt to hold boss aggro. (Often accompanied by a few taunts of their own about how the content is so easy, no one should need a tank.)

Equip a taunt. Even if you don't need a tank, having someone reliably holding boss aggro just makes the run smoother for everyone.

katorga

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

no taunt
no debuffs
no warhorn
boss not kept as still as possible

Oh yeah. Boss chasing the tank around is a tell tale sign of a fake tank. Last nite, in a random normal pug in the cauldron, fake tank, fake healer and a very low CP dps. And they tried to speed run it, lol. I had no time to swap skills, gear to take up the slack.

I disagree. It's the sign of a bad tank. If the boss is chasing him, he is likely taunting it.

No Taunt - Fake Tank
No Debuffs - Poor tank
No Warnhorn - Poor tank
Boss not kept still - BAD tank.

I disagree. Fake tanks seem to roll with their dps build, so they can attract some agro....for a little while....before they die.

INe_Saninus

On a normal dungeon?
Not having a taunt to hold the boss in place and not having enough health/resist to keep it in place.

That's really it.

Like, seriously. I don't care what else you're doing. What class you are. Hell, bring those deeps! Let's get through this quickly and efficiently.

On vet?
That's a whole other story. You'd better be the real deal.
...but I don't play vet with randoms.
Why would you?!
...and if I do (again, why would I do this?) I have zero expectations and am usually still let down.
I'll wait for a buddy to get on. 2 of us can usually pull 2 randoms through.
...and one of us usually tanks! Lol

Vet DLC dungeons are too challenging for a random group.

Merforum

Mostly when someone says a fake tank it is someone who is DPS or PVPer who thinks that are too good to wait in queue for DPS and just want the massive XP and transmutes you get for daily random. The really bad ones not only don't have a taunt, they don't know the mechanics and treat every dungeon like an XP grind. But don't realize all the adds don't just pile up like regular grinds so you can nuke them all in a corner.

This isn't just fake tanks, fake DPS who are impatient do the same thing. After years of tanking, and being able to quickly go from one trash pack to the next, pulling everything into a pile and having the team drop literally 2 aoes each and kill the whole pile in one rotation. Now I got these ? saying the piles should be bigger and running past me thinking they can be more efficient and just scattering adds all over the place that the rest of the team has to chase and kill one by one.

I think there is a massive amount of impatient toxic people who got all their experience doing shortcuts like XP grinds, and don't care about mechanics or other people at all. They just want XP, gear, transmutes, so they can get back to cyro, BG or trial dummy and brag about how great their DPS is. But don't want to really have fun, experience the game, or interact with anyone in a positive way.

And actually it is so easy, for any stam DPS you have just put on leeching, azureblight, slot inner fire, pierce armor, silver leash, caltrops. And you can do all the taunting, pulling and even explode rooms of adds. Simple really, any boss who has conal aoe/heavy taunt then point away from team. Pull all ranged adds into pile. Ranged taunt melee adds to come to you (DPS let adds get piled up then drop aoes). DPS/Healer if monster aggros on you don't run around room, bring to tank pile so they can taunt and take off you. Following a few simple techniques can make all dungeon encounters pretty easy actually.

BTW anyone who is interested in learning how to tank and mechanics should check out Xynodegaming. He is the only streamer/youtuber I've seen who has the balls to constantly do Vet random dungeons and DLCs with pugs and teaches a lot about tanking and other things.

Ippokrates

Well, it might be controversial, but while playing with PUGS (especially in normal), I have learn that going full tank is not to good idea, because in many situations you could be forced to turn into damaging, when your DD turns out to be FAKE DD (with dmg around 5k max) or you will get some quitters in the team.

BejaProphet

INe_Saninus wrote: »

On a normal dungeon?
Not having a taunt to hold the boss in place and not having enough health/resist to keep it in place.

That's really it.

Like, seriously. I don't care what else you're doing. What class you are. Hell, bring those deeps! Let's get through this quickly and efficiently.

On vet?
That's a whole other story. You'd better be the real deal.
...but I don't play vet with randoms.
Why would you?!
...and if I do (again, why would I do this?) I have zero expectations and am usually still let down.
I'll wait for a buddy to get on. 2 of us can usually pull 2 randoms through.
...and one of us usually tanks! Lol

Vet DLC dungeons are too challenging for a random group.

I enjoy pug tanking vet DLCs

cynicalbutterfly

To me a fake tank doesn't hold aggro or even slots a taunt. Instead they do everything except that. I could care less if you're buffing, debuffing, or dpsing but you better be using that taunt.

Brrrofski

BejaProphet wrote: »

Not the point of the thread, but...

I truly believe that in the presence of a good group a tank chaining, stacking and keeping group still does way more for team DPS than a DD with a taunt will.

Not when a DD is channelling heavy lightning attacks, fire off 3 silver shards in a row, then a Jesus beam at 80% health, drop their ultimate 20 foot away from the boss and then stand in an aoe and die.

I can give them all the warhorns in the world, but major force applied to a skill hitting for about 478 damage crit is not doing way more than I can do while doing DPS.

I had a group of CP 170 - 530 in NORMAL darkshade 2 the other day. They all died on the last boss from the poison. Including the healer. Not poking fun or anything, but then what do I do as a full on tank? Res them to die at next poison wave?

No thanks. I'll taunt the big stuff and keep my dps. Sorry I'm not stacking them together for people to just use single target skills on them anyway.

Sorry to the actual DPS that would benefit from those things, but I ain't taking the risk.

Brrrofski

Merforum wrote: »

Mostly when someone says a fake tank it is someone who is DPS or PVPer who thinks that are too good to wait in queue for DPS and just want the massive XP and transmutes you get for daily random. The really bad ones not only don't have a taunt, they don't know the mechanics and treat every dungeon like an XP grind. But don't realize all the adds don't just pile up like regular grinds so you can nuke them all in a corner.

This isn't just fake tanks, fake DPS who are impatient do the same thing. After years of tanking, and being able to quickly go from one trash pack to the next, pulling everything into a pile and having the team drop literally 2 aoes each and kill the whole pile in one rotation. Now I got these ? saying the piles should be bigger and running past me thinking they can be more efficient and just scattering adds all over the place that the rest of the team has to chase and kill one by one.

I think there is a massive amount of impatient toxic people who got all their experience doing shortcuts like XP grinds, and don't care about mechanics or other people at all. They just want XP, gear, transmutes, so they can get back to cyro, BG or trial dummy and brag about how great their DPS is. But don't want to really have fun, experience the game, or interact with anyone in a positive way.

And actually it is so easy, for any stam DPS you have just put on leeching, azureblight, slot inner fire, pierce armor, silver leash, caltrops. And you can do all the taunting, pulling and even explode rooms of adds. Simple really, any boss who has conal aoe/heavy taunt then point away from team. Pull all ranged adds into pile. Ranged taunt melee adds to come to you (DPS let adds get piled up then drop aoes). DPS/Healer if monster aggros on you don't run around room, bring to tank pile so they can taunt and take off you. Following a few simple techniques can make all dungeon encounters pretty easy actually.

BTW anyone who is interested in learning how to tank and mechanics should check out Xynodegaming. He is the only streamer/youtuber I've seen who has the balls to constantly do Vet random dungeons and DLCs with pugs and teaches a lot about tanking and other things.

Or some of us have done Spindleclutch one 6843974 times and don't want to pull 4 adds at a time.

Why is it toxic because I want something done quickly? People overuse the word toxic waaaaay too much.