Deleted

Chase0351

Speaking of build diversity, actually all of the way up until now there hasn't been any. There's been build archetypes. Best in slot sets are basically what everyone had been running. There's not a big diverse group of BiS, no, best in slot is the best for whatever archetype you played, be it magic, melee, tanky, ranged, etc. At least with stat builds we actually would see build diversity and get away from a big portion of the community exploiting the same broken proc sets, pve and pvp alike.

Urzigurumash

Chase0351 wrote: »

You guys can "what if" me to death, I get it, you really need proc sets to play pvp and remain viable.

I'm having a great time in No Proc Cyro.

To make my specific point any more clear, there's now a Red Champion slottable which exactly mimics the Dauntless Combatant proc. If one is fine, the other is fine.

gariondavey

I'm sorry, @Chase0351 but you are saying things that are not true in regards to what people have been able to build in the past and now. Also, you have come to some conclusions that are not accurate.

Urzigurumash

Chase0351 wrote: »

They need it for the dumbed down player skill base that they've created. Just look how many players show up to defend proc sets... The proof is in the pudding, no?

You're talking to experienced players in this thread, and generally on this forum.

exeeter702

This argument is exhausting.

Proc sets simply redistribute the damage bonus applied by a set bonus into specifc windows of time with a specifc control of cadence.

If player a is using a flat damage bonus set like julianos or hundings etc and player b is using a proc set that triggers on ability use or light attack, both players are playing the same game, and both players are having to interact with the combat system in the exact same fashion....

Player a is gaining 500 bonus damage on each ability and does a combo that occupies 4 gcds..

Player be does a combo that occupies 4 gcds and triggers a telegraphed / delayed proc effect with a 4 second icd that deals 2000 damage.

One is gaining sustained pressure, the other is trading that sustained pressure for a better potential burst combo with the risk that comes with said burst being telegraphed and delayed. Nothing is being given for free and in no way are these sets "doing the work" for you. The player that is able to stay on top of their GCD usage and maintain their light attack weaving is always going to do better than the player that doesnt. You can make the argument that the player who cant do that is afforded the proc damage so long as they nail the condition at least once every time the icd refreshed, but at that point if you are losing to them, you are failing just as hard if not more by losing the pressure game to begin with. The better player will always produce more offensive pressure than the weaker player that is getting a proc every few seconds while completely falling to weave effectively and or stay in range / los to use their abilities.

Both players are interacting with the combat system in the same fashion. In pvp burst is king, most understand this simple fact, and that is why these type of sets that migrant the offensive bonuses of a gear set into a timed application are more appealing than sustained damage bonuses. Procs have been made to not crit, they have been made to deal less damage, they have been made to be far more telegraphed and/or with more clearly defined visual indicators. Monster sets follow this same design philosophy and are intentionally built to be more build defining with a stronger power budget attached to them.

This argument that they are training wheels for bad players is absurd.

Experienced players will use them to their best effect and bad players will continue to be beaten by better players. If someone is losing to players with proc sets, and are convincing themself it was the set that did the work, they are not as good of a player as they think they are, I say that generally.

Malacath among other balance issues has been the main culprit but currently it is not nearly as bad.

propertyOfUndefined

I would like to propose naked, no-cp battlegrounds. All your gear is taken from you before the match begins. All you have are the skills on your 2 bars, teamwork and reflexes -- resulting in the ultimate test of skill on a completely level playing field!

Cynicism aside, I don't deny that proc sets were overpowered before the patch. Imho, they are in a much better place now. I don't understand why you would want to change them.

Developing new and fun builds using the wide variety of sets is what keeps endgame interesting for a lot of players.

MurderMostFoul

exeeter702 wrote: »

Player a is gaining 500 bonus damage on each ability and does a combo that occupies 4 gcds..

Player be does a combo that occupies 4 gcds and triggers a telegraphed / delayed proc effect with a 4 second icd that deals 2000 damage.

The problem arises when this mathematical equivalence is not reflected in the game, which was very much the case last patch. Numerous posts have gone into the details during the last patch as to how much more damage proc sets were providing over stats sets.

With the increase to base stats, this equivalence is much more in line now. But previously, many proc sets could be considered training wheels as they would allow a player to perform well without needing to skillfully use their barred abilities. They could rely on more or less automatic conditions for damage and healing from their sets.

exeeter702

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Player a is gaining 500 bonus damage on each ability and does a combo that occupies 4 gcds..

Player be does a combo that occupies 4 gcds and triggers a telegraphed / delayed proc effect with a 4 second icd that deals 2000 damage.

The problem arises when this mathematical equivalence is not reflected in the game, which was very much the case last patch. Numerous posts have gone into the details during the last patch as to how much more damage proc sets were providing over stats sets.

With the increase to base stats, this equivalence is much more in line now. But previously, many proc sets could be considered training wheels as they would allow a player to perform well without needing to skillfully use their barred abilities. They could rely on more or less automatic conditions for damage and healing from their sets.

It really wasnt that severe, but even then the descrpecney hardly produced such an effect that made said sets wildly oppressive by comparison. Those that vent about proc sets believe those sets are a bane to the game in its entirely and are not interested in balance, but rather the complete removal of that type of set bonus.

My example was merely to demonstrate the design philosophy, not necessarily to defend any potentially egregious imbalances, of which I believe the vast majority over exaggerate.

To the second point, you say skillfully use their abilities, if they are not skiffulynusing their abilities, the amount of offensive pressure they are actually gaining is paltry by comparison to a player that is. They are losing out on throughput in some way or another. If anything, the worse player flimsliy using abilities but triggering a basic light attack every 5 seconds puts them at an even greater disadvantage against someone missing out on a single GCD in the same time frame. Like their entire gameplan resolves around the telegraphed proc, ok cool, when a half decent player responds to it accordingly they are even less of a threat than the average player gaining flat damage bonus on even 3 attacks out of 5 gcds.

This entire argument is so razors edge that I dont feel it's even worth the amount of energy that is often put forth on the subject.

MurderMostFoul

exeeter702 wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Player a is gaining 500 bonus damage on each ability and does a combo that occupies 4 gcds..

Player be does a combo that occupies 4 gcds and triggers a telegraphed / delayed proc effect with a 4 second icd that deals 2000 damage.

The problem arises when this mathematical equivalence is not reflected in the game, which was very much the case last patch. Numerous posts have gone into the details during the last patch as to how much more damage proc sets were providing over stats sets.

With the increase to base stats, this equivalence is much more in line now. But previously, many proc sets could be considered training wheels as they would allow a player to perform well without needing to skillfully use their barred abilities. They could rely on more or less automatic conditions for damage and healing from their sets.

It really wasnt that severe, but even then the descrpecney hardly produced such an effect that made said sets wildly oppressive by comparison. Those that vent about proc sets believe those sets are a bane to the game in its entirely and are not interested in balance, but rather the complete removal of that type of set bonus.

My example was merely to demonstrate the design philosophy, not necessarily to defend any potentially egregious imbalances, of which I believe the vast majority over exaggerate.

To the second point, you say skillfully use their abilities, if they are not skiffulynusing their abilities, the amount of offensive pressure they are actually gaining is paltry by comparison to a player that is. They are losing out on throughput in some way or another. If anything, the worse player flimsliy using abilities but triggering a basic light attack every 5 seconds puts them at an even greater disadvantage against someone missing out on a single GCD in the same time frame. Like their entire gameplan resolves around the telegraphed proc, ok cool, when a half decent player responds to it accordingly they are even less of a threat than the average player gaining flat damage bonus on even 3 attacks out of 5 gcds.

This entire argument is so razors edge that I dont feel it's even worth the amount of energy that is often put forth on the subject.

https://youtu.be/dqdwEiI2wRc

Yes, it's parody, but it also illustrates the problem fairly well. Not all proc sets were out of line. But enough were that allowed strong PVP performance while using only one damage ability. That is not "skilled" play. Proc sets were the problem, and when the problem got bad, it was worth making sure ZOS heard about it.

KashyyyK240

To be honest battlegrounds are a proc fest these days. Having death recaps be like unleashed terror/sheer venom/sellistrix for 90% of the damage is just not fun.

In no-cp you can already build dps in order to kill someone spamming heals/shields even with stat based gear. The procs turn it into a 100% kill chance once you start attacking a class without streak/stealth.

I've seen bombers wreck teams in bg because they're locked out of cyrodiil for the time being and that's the only way those people know how to pvp. Is this fair? I guess not, cause most people play bg because they enjoy casual pvp and this is a huge turn off and most won't even queue for IC/Cyro after these experiences.

All in all I still enjoy meeting frustrated crutchers in bg who won't join Cyro because of no-procs and I'm glad they have a separate playground for their "pvp skillz"

Firstmep

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I am very much against this form of homogenization. ESO makes up for the fact that you are allowed to use every (passive) skill in game by giving players a lot of sets that can diversify gameplay. In a lot of other MMORPGs, items are purely tor stats, but the level-up progression is what adds diversity by locking you out of certain skill lines when you choose to unlock others. I for one would get bored, lose interest and stop playing.

Absolutely, and when new gear gets released, you also have to acccout for how it pairs with old, which can also drive older content.
Eso has a massive focus on gear, but unlike in other games, where you just get more stats with higher level gear, in eso its(most) sideways progression and ever growing variety?
Again, since we are not getting new skills, skill lines etc, gear is the main driving factor for build diversity.
I get that some people would be okay with just plain stats and the same gear, and I even understand why do many ppl think that skillful gameplay can only come from button presses, but I just don't agree.

KashyyyK240 wrote: »

To be honest battlegrounds are a proc fest these days. Having death recaps be like unleashed terror/sheer venom/sellistrix for 90% of the damage is just not fun.

In no-cp you can already build dps in order to kill someone spamming heals/shields even with stat based gear. The procs turn it into a 100% kill chance once you start attacking a class without streak/stealth.

I've seen bombers wreck teams in bg because they're locked out of cyrodiil for the time being and that's the only way those people know how to pvp. Is this fair? I guess not, cause most people play bg because they enjoy casual pvp and this is a huge turn off and most won't even queue for IC/Cyro after these experiences.

All in all I still enjoy meeting frustrated crutchers in bg who won't join Cyro because of no-procs and I'm glad they have a separate playground for their "pvp skillz"

Give it some time, a lot of players already started to shift their bg builds to more stats and less procs.
The mix of high stats and procs are definetly making for a high dmg meta, but frankly you easily run multiple strong defensive sets on most specs and still pump out big damage.
Just as in cyro, meta players are already shifting towards running at least 1 defensive set like impreg, the same thing happening in bgs, just slower.
My magplar rocking 2 defensive and 1 sustain set is melting full proctards in a couple of seconds and other classes can do similar or better things.
You can literally just use vate 2h or balorgh on most Stam classes and just defenses on the rest and still dish out bid deepz.

MurderMostFoul

KashyyyK240 wrote: »

To be honest battlegrounds are a proc fest these days. Having death recaps be like unleashed terror/sheer venom/sellistrix for 90% of the damage is just not fun.

In no-cp you can already build dps in order to kill someone spamming heals/shields even with stat based gear. The procs turn it into a 100% kill chance once you start attacking a class without streak/stealth.

I've seen bombers wreck teams in bg because they're locked out of cyrodiil for the time being and that's the only way those people know how to pvp. Is this fair? I guess not, cause most people play bg because they enjoy casual pvp and this is a huge turn off and most won't even queue for IC/Cyro after these experiences.

All in all I still enjoy meeting frustrated crutchers in bg who won't join Cyro because of no-procs and I'm glad they have a separate playground for their "pvp skillz"

I've probably played over 50 BGs since the patch. Sure I run into people using procs, but they just aren't a problem really. I very rarely see them on my death recap, and the players I know are using them don't seem very effective. I've mentioned caluurions as one example of a proc that actually seems to be pretty deadly this patch, and you do occasionally run in to a bummer with vicious death procs. But procs are dominating BGs like last patch, at least on Xbox NA.

Noctus

Chase0351 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

How do you feel about the Undeath passive for Vampire, and how do you feel about the Mark of the Pariah set? How do you feel about the Bloodthirsty trait, and how do you feel about the Kvatch Gladiator set?

I remember when all the ranged builds were crying about dk wings being op and that was an ability that one had to actually cast. If timed right you could make a magsorc eat his little crystal frag. Then they nerfed that to dumb down the player skill base. But now that the players who believe in skill based gameplay and not gimmicks are rioting over proc sets nothing gets done. They need it for the dumbed down player skill base that they've created. Just look how many players show up to defend proc sets... The proof is in the pudding, no?

this is not right. dk with wings just countered magblade so hard that the class had no chance at all to do any dmg. there was no skill in using wings and kill someone.
the person who has the highest killcount ever in the game was a dk prenerf. the class was just stupidly out of tune.

right now its sorc that is OP and needs nerf alongside warden. all other classes are fine.

players in this game rly has a warped sense of skill sometimes. (especially players that stand in a crowd getting hit by ultimates left and right without dodging or blocking and still survive<--- how ppl can say this is skill is beyond me)

sets like caluurion and velidreth and other procs that work similar are skillbased. let me explain.

im a magblade main and sometimes i have these magblade vs magblade or other class that use caluurion fight. what most of the time happens is my opponent fails to dodge or block my calurion while i manage to dodge.

that set tests the skill of ur opponent to react to obvious animation and audio queue while its ur job in the moment to align ur burst it takes timing. another good example would be aurorans where u have a cone which u can evade as opponent and move around the person so that most dmg doesnt apply at all.

whats skilless is for example hunters venom , sheer venom, unleashed terror(most stamina sets) if u fail to apply poison injection just shoot the skill again untill it does there is no cooldown if u fail.... nothing to loose basicly.

Firstmep

Noctus wrote: »

Chase0351 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

How do you feel about the Undeath passive for Vampire, and how do you feel about the Mark of the Pariah set? How do you feel about the Bloodthirsty trait, and how do you feel about the Kvatch Gladiator set?

I remember when all the ranged builds were crying about dk wings being op and that was an ability that one had to actually cast. If timed right you could make a magsorc eat his little crystal frag. Then they nerfed that to dumb down the player skill base. But now that the players who believe in skill based gameplay and not gimmicks are rioting over proc sets nothing gets done. They need it for the dumbed down player skill base that they've created. Just look how many players show up to defend proc sets... The proof is in the pudding, no?

this is not right. dk with wings just countered magblade so hard that the class had no chance at all to do any dmg. there was no skill in using wings and kill someone.
the person who has the highest killcount ever in the game was a dk prenerf. the class was just stupidly out of tune.

right now its sorc that is OP and needs nerf alongside warden. all other classes are fine.

players in this game rly has a warped sense of skill sometimes. (especially players that stand in a crowd getting hit by ultimates left and right without dodging or blocking and still survive<--- how ppl can say this is skill is beyond me)

sets like caluurion and velidreth and other procs that work similar are skillbased. let me explain.

im a magblade main and sometimes i have these magblade vs magblade or other class that use caluurion fight. what most of the time happens is my opponent fails to dodge or block my calurion while i manage to dodge.

that set tests the skill of ur opponent to react to obvious animation and audio queue while its ur job in the moment to align ur burst it takes timing. another good example would be aurorans where u have a cone which u can evade as opponent and move around the person so that most dmg doesnt apply at all.

whats skilless is for example hunters venom , sheer venom, unleashed terror(most stamina sets) if u fail to apply poison injection just shoot the skill again untill it does there is no cooldown if u fail.... nothing to loose basicly.

Well dot procs came after(some time after), skill based dots were over nerfed.
So it was nice to be able to make proper dot builds, even if you had to resort to proc sets.
But the thing is hunters venom and for example crimson have/had the same issue, high static dmg which ignored most offensive stats bar penetration, allowing you to cut too many corners.
You add the ability to stack high hp, hp recovery or hp based heals and shields, and you have the recipe for the most disgusting proc meta the game had to endure. These sets were also riding on a big nerf to healing, which was another reason to build high health..
I aggree that there's is a degree of skill when trying to combo certain sets like calurion with other burst dmg, and when I look at magblade, in a non dueling environment, you really don't have a ton of things to work with to kill people.
It doesnt matter if your merciless hits for 18k if Noone ever gets hit by it.
And there is a degree of skill in countering these sets too, but that goes for dot procs as well.
The issue with dot procs were really thst since almost everyone was using them, even on a Templar spamming purge back to back you still couldn't get rid of all of them, and just like when dots were op way back when, they just killed your healing completely.now that healing is back up, and even higher than before due to the base Stat increase, dot procs are not really a threat anymore, a few like zaan or vate destro can still be problematic, but there are ways to counter those too.

divnyi

Just writing a comment to have a voice against proc set removal in BGs. Having strong itemization options in BG PvP is what makes it fun. Without the thrill of inventing new builds, I will just drop the game.

Noctus

Firstmep wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

Chase0351 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

How do you feel about the Undeath passive for Vampire, and how do you feel about the Mark of the Pariah set? How do you feel about the Bloodthirsty trait, and how do you feel about the Kvatch Gladiator set?

I remember when all the ranged builds were crying about dk wings being op and that was an ability that one had to actually cast. If timed right you could make a magsorc eat his little crystal frag. Then they nerfed that to dumb down the player skill base. But now that the players who believe in skill based gameplay and not gimmicks are rioting over proc sets nothing gets done. They need it for the dumbed down player skill base that they've created. Just look how many players show up to defend proc sets... The proof is in the pudding, no?

this is not right. dk with wings just countered magblade so hard that the class had no chance at all to do any dmg. there was no skill in using wings and kill someone.
the person who has the highest killcount ever in the game was a dk prenerf. the class was just stupidly out of tune.

right now its sorc that is OP and needs nerf alongside warden. all other classes are fine.

players in this game rly has a warped sense of skill sometimes. (especially players that stand in a crowd getting hit by ultimates left and right without dodging or blocking and still survive<--- how ppl can say this is skill is beyond me)

sets like caluurion and velidreth and other procs that work similar are skillbased. let me explain.

im a magblade main and sometimes i have these magblade vs magblade or other class that use caluurion fight. what most of the time happens is my opponent fails to dodge or block my calurion while i manage to dodge.

that set tests the skill of ur opponent to react to obvious animation and audio queue while its ur job in the moment to align ur burst it takes timing. another good example would be aurorans where u have a cone which u can evade as opponent and move around the person so that most dmg doesnt apply at all.

whats skilless is for example hunters venom , sheer venom, unleashed terror(most stamina sets) if u fail to apply poison injection just shoot the skill again untill it does there is no cooldown if u fail.... nothing to loose basicly.

You add the ability to stack high hp, hp recovery or hp based heals and shields, and you have the recipe for the most disgusting proc meta the game had to endure. These sets were also riding on a big nerf to healing, which was another reason to build high health..

this is why we need to have those sets scale on stats so that it gets also less attractive to use sheer venom + hunters venom for example and to weaken the proctanks.

Firstmep

Noctus wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

Chase0351 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

How do you feel about the Undeath passive for Vampire, and how do you feel about the Mark of the Pariah set? How do you feel about the Bloodthirsty trait, and how do you feel about the Kvatch Gladiator set?

I remember when all the ranged builds were crying about dk wings being op and that was an ability that one had to actually cast. If timed right you could make a magsorc eat his little crystal frag. Then they nerfed that to dumb down the player skill base. But now that the players who believe in skill based gameplay and not gimmicks are rioting over proc sets nothing gets done. They need it for the dumbed down player skill base that they've created. Just look how many players show up to defend proc sets... The proof is in the pudding, no?

this is not right. dk with wings just countered magblade so hard that the class had no chance at all to do any dmg. there was no skill in using wings and kill someone.
the person who has the highest killcount ever in the game was a dk prenerf. the class was just stupidly out of tune.

right now its sorc that is OP and needs nerf alongside warden. all other classes are fine.

players in this game rly has a warped sense of skill sometimes. (especially players that stand in a crowd getting hit by ultimates left and right without dodging or blocking and still survive<--- how ppl can say this is skill is beyond me)

sets like caluurion and velidreth and other procs that work similar are skillbased. let me explain.

im a magblade main and sometimes i have these magblade vs magblade or other class that use caluurion fight. what most of the time happens is my opponent fails to dodge or block my calurion while i manage to dodge.

that set tests the skill of ur opponent to react to obvious animation and audio queue while its ur job in the moment to align ur burst it takes timing. another good example would be aurorans where u have a cone which u can evade as opponent and move around the person so that most dmg doesnt apply at all.

whats skilless is for example hunters venom , sheer venom, unleashed terror(most stamina sets) if u fail to apply poison injection just shoot the skill again untill it does there is no cooldown if u fail.... nothing to loose basicly.

You add the ability to stack high hp, hp recovery or hp based heals and shields, and you have the recipe for the most disgusting proc meta the game had to endure. These sets were also riding on a big nerf to healing, which was another reason to build high health..

this is why we need to have those sets scale on stats so that it gets also less attractive to use sheer venom + hunters venom for example and to weaken the proctanks.

Yes which is something I suggested many months ago.
The last year really left a lot of ppl with proc ptsd due to how overtuned they were.
It's a bit better atm in bgs tho, but I'd still like procs to be Stat based to avoid future problems.

Urzigurumash

Things seem reasonably well-balanced, I think BGs are in their best state in quite a while. As others have said "When everything's OP, nothing is" comes to mind.

Urzigurumash

Firstmep wrote: »

These sets were also riding on a big nerf to healing, which was another reason to build high health.

I suspect both the nerf to Healing and the buff to Damage Procs was a way to address the excessive TTK post-Dragonhold caused by over-nerfed DoTs and over-buffed offensive-stat scaling HoTs - the same reason a part of Balorgh was converted to Penetration, I suspect.

Mariusghost84

I only play bgs in pvp. I can't wait for no proc bgs!

WolfyRaps

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Things seem reasonably well-balanced, I think BGs are in their best state in quite a while. As others have said "When everything's OP, nothing is" comes to mind.

Yes in the "proc" BG almost all classes are viable, which is certainly not the case in "no proc" Cyro.

What is even more impressive is that classes that are considered weak everywhere elese like MagDk are overperforming at the very top of the MMR ladder..

So NO! DO NOT REMOVE BUILD DIVERSITY FROM BG ! It is the only form of PVP I still have at the moment, when I am bored and disgusted of "no proc" Sorcodiil and I will not step into that masquarade until ZOS brings build diversity back !

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Chilly-McFreeze

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Things seem reasonably well-balanced, I think BGs are in their best state in quite a while. As others have said "When everything's OP, nothing is" comes to mind.

Yes in the "proc" BG almost all classes are viable, which is certainly not the case in "no proc" Cyro.

What is even more impressive is that classes that are considered weak everywhere elese like MagDk are overperforming at the very top of the MMR ladder..

So NO! DO NOT REMOVE BUILD DIVERSITY FROM BG ! It is the only form of PVP I still have at the moment, when I am bored and disgusted of "no proc" Sorcodiil and I will not step into that masquarade until ZOS brings build diversity back !

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler

My main concern is: what will they do about proc sets and (class) balance? Do they tune proc sets and malacath more in line? Do they create a seperate no-proc campaign? How will they determine what class needs balancing with so much different rule sets?

Goregrinder

exeeter702 wrote: »

This argument is exhausting.

Proc sets simply redistribute the damage bonus applied by a set bonus into specifc windows of time with a specifc control of cadence.

If player a is using a flat damage bonus set like julianos or hundings etc and player b is using a proc set that triggers on ability use or light attack, both players are playing the same game, and both players are having to interact with the combat system in the exact same fashion....

Player a is gaining 500 bonus damage on each ability and does a combo that occupies 4 gcds..

Player be does a combo that occupies 4 gcds and triggers a telegraphed / delayed proc effect with a 4 second icd that deals 2000 damage.

One is gaining sustained pressure, the other is trading that sustained pressure for a better potential burst combo with the risk that comes with said burst being telegraphed and delayed. Nothing is being given for free and in no way are these sets "doing the work" for you. The player that is able to stay on top of their GCD usage and maintain their light attack weaving is always going to do better than the player that doesnt. You can make the argument that the player who cant do that is afforded the proc damage so long as they nail the condition at least once every time the icd refreshed, but at that point if you are losing to them, you are failing just as hard if not more by losing the pressure game to begin with. The better player will always produce more offensive pressure than the weaker player that is getting a proc every few seconds while completely falling to weave effectively and or stay in range / los to use their abilities.

Both players are interacting with the combat system in the same fashion. In pvp burst is king, most understand this simple fact, and that is why these type of sets that migrant the offensive bonuses of a gear set into a timed application are more appealing than sustained damage bonuses. Procs have been made to not crit, they have been made to deal less damage, they have been made to be far more telegraphed and/or with more clearly defined visual indicators. Monster sets follow this same design philosophy and are intentionally built to be more build defining with a stronger power budget attached to them.

This argument that they are training wheels for bad players is absurd.

Experienced players will use them to their best effect and bad players will continue to be beaten by better players. If someone is losing to players with proc sets, and are convincing themself it was the set that did the work, they are not as good of a player as they think they are, I say that generally.

Malacath among other balance issues has been the main culprit but currently it is not nearly as bad.

Players don't get punished when procs don't fire, because they always fire, even if you lag out. But players 100% get punished if they don't do their burst combo correctly. That's why procs don't benefit good players, they only benefit bad players. The good players will almost always land their burst combos.

Firstmep

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Things seem reasonably well-balanced, I think BGs are in their best state in quite a while. As others have said "When everything's OP, nothing is" comes to mind.

Yes in the "proc" BG almost all classes are viable, which is certainly not the case in "no proc" Cyro.

What is even more impressive is that classes that are considered weak everywhere elese like MagDk are overperforming at the very top of the MMR ladder..

So NO! DO NOT REMOVE BUILD DIVERSITY FROM BG ! It is the only form of PVP I still have at the moment, when I am bored and disgusted of "no proc" Sorcodiil and I will not step into that masquarade until ZOS brings build diversity back !

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler

My main concern is: what will they do about proc sets and (class) balance? Do they tune proc sets and malacath more in line? Do they create a seperate no-proc campaign? How will they determine what class needs balancing with so much different rule sets?

My concerns exactly.
Just look at this patch, they gave everyone 1k wpn and spd for free to make up for cp changes, without even considering non cp pvp.
Now imagine them trying to balance classes that are strong with procs and weak without...

Urzigurumash

Goregrinder wrote: »

Players don't get punished when procs don't fire, because they always fire, even if you lag out. But players 100% get punished if they don't do their burst combo correctly. That's why procs don't benefit good players, they only benefit bad players. The good players will almost always land their burst combos.

Here by proc here you mean "Unconditional auto-damage procs"? You could argue some other types of proc sets require more careful attention to the sequence of a combo than flat stat sets.

Urzigurumash

Well, more careful attention to the sequence of a combo in order for you to maximize the advantage of wearing that set, anyhow. The old Noble's Conquest is maybe a good example of what I mean, when it would only proc on an interruptible target.

Goregrinder

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Players don't get punished when procs don't fire, because they always fire, even if you lag out. But players 100% get punished if they don't do their burst combo correctly. That's why procs don't benefit good players, they only benefit bad players. The good players will almost always land their burst combos.

Here by proc here you mean "Unconditional auto-damage procs"? You could argue some other types of proc sets require more careful attention to the sequence of a combo than flat stat sets.

I'm referring to the proc sets that fire "when x event happens". Rather than "reduce cost of spells by x percent". An example would be crimson, earthgore, even Zaan would fall into that category. I have problems with procs when the gear is doing the damage or healing for the player, rather than boosting damage yet still requiring the player to manually apply that damage boost. Queen's Elegence for example, it's 5th piece "procs" but doesn't deal damage, it only boosts heavy attack damage...so you still have to hold down your left mouse button for the set to do anything for you. Crimson does not require the player to press any button...it will proc and heal you just because. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Urzigurumash

Right, the new Elegance is a great example of what I mean, since on that one it's actually a bit of a challenge to try and get a Direct Damage skill to consume the buff rather than the Heavy Attack itself, if I recall.

Urzigurumash

Actually I think perhaps you need to try the new Elegance after reading your comment again. It doesn't just buff Heavy Attack damage now - only if the Heavy Attack hits before the next Direct Damage cast immediately after you cast the Heavy Attack. It's cool, if a bit of a parlor trick set.

Chase0351

Goregrinder wrote: »

[snip]

[snip] What concerns me is pvp, since unlike the npc's I do care whether or not I got death by proc set. If you even pvp, then you would know that when you're fighting an enemy and trying burst them down and you finally get a window and as you go in for the kill you drop dead... and the kill recap says, Caluurion or crimson or something other than an actual ability attack. Then you might understand the problem folks have with your proc sets. The player did jack squat, his armor saved his butt from getting defeated. I refuse to wear proc sets even in BG's where they are still working. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]