ZOS sold crutches to bad players for too long, now they’re unhappy with balance

Fawn4287

Balanced set design is not easy especially when you need to sell DLC, so rather then attempting to sell ridiculously overpowered stat boosting sets, proc damage and debuff sets fill nearly every DLC area and dungeon. Without sets being better than whats currently available there is no reason to purchase DLC for many players if you aren’t a dungeon completing PvE player. The main issue thats arisen with this is a severe abundance of cheesy PvP sets that were grossly buffed by class passives, the old CP system and Malacath. With a combination of these, someone could build in to nothing else but tankyness and with a decent expedition buff someone could have decent damage and mobility alongside extreme tankyness, which in older versions of the game were not possible, making people forget that this era of incredibly poor balance was the standard of how the game plays.

Now in Cyrodil with a more balanced CP system and all these damage crutches kicked out people have forgotten how the game when balanced more appropriately plays, leading them to think that damage has be ‘significantly nerfed’ because their heavy armour build with 30k resistance and 35k health doesn’t kill people easily any more. At one point any build close to these stats was usually a bubble trouble or troll tank build, back when 20-25k health was standard for a DPS centric PvP build. If you build with no damage you should do no damage [snip]. Complaining about ‘I golded out this gear’ and ‘I can’t use this build’ are not experienced multiplayer gamers, meta shifts and balance changes are a reality of online games, there is nothing more boring than an non evolving tank proc set meta in which the difference in skill level between good and bad players is invisible.

[snip] A skill gap is healthy and gives players a goal to work towards which has always been apparent in end game PvE but recently not visible thanks to gear in PvP. You shouldn’t just instantly win because you have superior gear and numbers, skill and tactics should always be the most important factor to winning multiplayer gaming.

[Edited for Baiting]

JayKwellen

I for one think ZOS should impliment a feature in which when you post about PvP your build stats and sets from your most used PvP character(s) are automatically included in the signature line. Just rip the veil back and let us see what's behind the curtain. Would be of much use to see just how much skin in the "keep the proc dream alive" game people have.

Obviosuly this won't ever happen. But imagine?

Skullstachio

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP, many nerfs to class abilities and passives as well as many others were a Indirect result of PVP proc sets in a way from my perspective. Without proc sets in cyrodiil, it will be much easier to properly balance Class abilities/passives and the like for both environments without having too many problems from one side.

Typographic Edit. (The Universe is watching with Careful eyes Mortals...)

TineaCruris

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Balanced set design is not easy especially when you need to sell DLC, so rather then attempting to sell ridiculously overpowered stat boosting sets, proc damage and debuff sets fill nearly every DLC area and dungeon. Without sets being better than whats currently available there is no reason to purchase DLC for many players if you aren’t a dungeon completing PvE player. The main issue thats arisen with this is a severe abundance of cheesy PvP sets that were grossly buffed by class passives, the old CP system and Malacath. With a combination of these, someone could build in to nothing else but tankyness and with a decent expedition buff someone could have decent damage and mobility alongside extreme tankyness, which in older versions of the game were not possible, making people forget that this era of incredibly poor balance was the standard of how the game plays.

Now in Cyrodil with a more balanced CP system and all these damage crutches kicked out people have forgotten how the game when balanced more appropriately plays, leading them to think that damage has be ‘significantly nerfed’ because their heavy armour build with 30k resistance and 35k health doesn’t kill people easily any more. At one point any build close to these stats was usually a bubble trouble or troll tank build, back when 20-25k health was standard for a DPS centric PvP build. If you build with no damage you should do no damage [snip]. Complaining about ‘I golded out this gear’ and ‘I can’t use this build’ are not experienced multiplayer gamers, meta shifts and balance changes are a reality of online games, there is nothing more boring than an non evolving tank proc set meta in which the difference in skill level between good and bad players is invisible.

[snip] A skill gap is healthy and gives players a goal to work towards which has always been apparent in end game PvE but recently not visible thanks to gear in PvP. You shouldn’t just instantly win because you have superior gear and numbers, skill and tactics should always be the most important factor to winning multiplayer gaming.

[Edited for Baiting].

[snip]

This issue is not about proc sets. It's about performance. Performance is not better without proc sets. They told us this alleged test was about performance, remember?

It's about fixing performance, not procs.

[Edited for Baiting]

Sanctum74

TineaCruris wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Balanced set design is not easy especially when you need to sell DLC, so rather then attempting to sell ridiculously overpowered stat boosting sets, proc damage and debuff sets fill nearly every DLC area and dungeon. Without sets being better than whats currently available there is no reason to purchase DLC for many players if you aren’t a dungeon completing PvE player. The main issue thats arisen with this is a severe abundance of cheesy PvP sets that were grossly buffed by class passives, the old CP system and Malacath. With a combination of these, someone could build in to nothing else but tankyness and with a decent expedition buff someone could have decent damage and mobility alongside extreme tankyness, which in older versions of the game were not possible, making people forget that this era of incredibly poor balance was the standard of how the game plays.

Now in Cyrodil with a more balanced CP system and all these damage crutches kicked out people have forgotten how the game when balanced more appropriately plays, leading them to think that damage has be ‘significantly nerfed’ because their heavy armour build with 30k resistance and 35k health doesn’t kill people easily any more. At one point any build close to these stats was usually a bubble trouble or troll tank build, back when 20-25k health was standard for a DPS centric PvP build. If you build with no damage you should do no damage [snip]. Complaining about ‘I golded out this gear’ and ‘I can’t use this build’ are not experienced multiplayer gamers, meta shifts and balance changes are a reality of online games, there is nothing more boring than an non evolving tank proc set meta in which the difference in skill level between good and bad players is invisible.

[snip] A skill gap is healthy and gives players a goal to work towards which has always been apparent in end game PvE but recently not visible thanks to gear in PvP. You shouldn’t just instantly win because you have superior gear and numbers, skill and tactics should always be the most important factor to winning multiplayer gaming.

[Edited for Baiting]

[snip]

This issue is not about proc sets. It's about performance. Performance is not better without proc sets. They told us this alleged test was about performance, remember?

It's about fixing performance, not procs.

[Edited for Baiting]

They admitted it wasn’t about performance, but made the change anyway because it was healthy for game play. At least op made some good detailed points instead of just resorting to insults as their argument.

TineaCruris

Sanctum74 wrote: »

TineaCruris wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Balanced set design is not easy especially when you need to sell DLC, so rather then attempting to sell ridiculously overpowered stat boosting sets, proc damage and debuff sets fill nearly every DLC area and dungeon. Without sets being better than whats currently available there is no reason to purchase DLC for many players if you aren’t a dungeon completing PvE player. The main issue thats arisen with this is a severe abundance of cheesy PvP sets that were grossly buffed by class passives, the old CP system and Malacath. With a combination of these, someone could build in to nothing else but tankyness and with a decent expedition buff someone could have decent damage and mobility alongside extreme tankyness, which in older versions of the game were not possible, making people forget that this era of incredibly poor balance was the standard of how the game plays.

Now in Cyrodil with a more balanced CP system and all these damage crutches kicked out people have forgotten how the game when balanced more appropriately plays, leading them to think that damage has be ‘significantly nerfed’ because their heavy armour build with 30k resistance and 35k health doesn’t kill people easily any more. At one point any build close to these stats was usually a bubble trouble or troll tank build, back when 20-25k health was standard for a DPS centric PvP build. If you build with no damage you should do no damage [snip]. Complaining about ‘I golded out this gear’ and ‘I can’t use this build’ are not experienced multiplayer gamers, meta shifts and balance changes are a reality of online games, there is nothing more boring than an non evolving tank proc set meta in which the difference in skill level between good and bad players is invisible.

[snip] A skill gap is healthy and gives players a goal to work towards which has always been apparent in end game PvE but recently not visible thanks to gear in PvP. You shouldn’t just instantly win because you have superior gear and numbers, skill and tactics should always be the most important factor to winning multiplayer gaming.

[Edited for Baiting]

[snip]

This issue is not about proc sets. It's about performance. Performance is not better without proc sets. They told us this alleged test was about performance, remember?

It's about fixing performance, not procs.
[Edited for Baiting]

They admitted it wasn’t about performance, but made the change anyway because it was healthy for game play. At least op made some good detailed points instead of just resorting to insults as their argument.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561180/feb-15-cyrodiil-test-details#latest

Faded

You're right that there are people, maybe lots of them, who think the proc meta is what PVP is. There's nobody to blame for that perception but the devs.

For a year they thought they were supposed to build for 45k health and stay alive while their armor did the fighting. Isn't that the game? Nope sorry, build for stat density and figure out how to kill people who are trying to kill you first. Good luck, have fun.

Jayserix

Fawn4287 wrote: »

[...]Without sets being better than whats currently available there is no reason to purchase DLC for many players if you aren’t a dungeon completing PvE player. [...]

This should be nuanced, heavily nuanced ... There are pvp players who still like to do exploration, experience new story lines etc ...

Otherwise I share the same sentiment.

Galarthor

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Balanced set design is not easy especially when you need to sell DLC, so rather then attempting to sell ridiculously overpowered stat boosting sets, proc damage and debuff sets fill nearly every DLC area and dungeon. Without sets being better than whats currently available there is no reason to purchase DLC for many players if you aren’t a dungeon completing PvE player. The main issue thats arisen with this is a severe abundance of cheesy PvP sets that were grossly buffed by class passives, the old CP system and Malacath. With a combination of these, someone could build in to nothing else but tankyness and with a decent expedition buff someone could have decent damage and mobility alongside extreme tankyness, which in older versions of the game were not possible, making people forget that this era of incredibly poor balance was the standard of how the game plays.

Now in Cyrodil with a more balanced CP system and all these damage crutches kicked out people have forgotten how the game when balanced more appropriately plays, leading them to think that damage has be ‘significantly nerfed’ because their heavy armour build with 30k resistance and 35k health doesn’t kill people easily any more. At one point any build close to these stats was usually a bubble trouble or troll tank build, back when 20-25k health was standard for a DPS centric PvP build. If you build with no damage you should do no damage [snip]. Complaining about ‘I golded out this gear’ and ‘I can’t use this build’ are not experienced multiplayer gamers, meta shifts and balance changes are a reality of online games, there is nothing more boring than an non evolving tank proc set meta in which the difference in skill level between good and bad players is invisible.

[snip] A skill gap is healthy and gives players a goal to work towards which has always been apparent in end game PvE but recently not visible thanks to gear in PvP. You shouldn’t just instantly win because you have superior gear and numbers, skill and tactics should always be the most important factor to winning multiplayer gaming.

[Edited for Baiting]

Amen!

What we currently have is one of the, if not THE, best balance we ever had in Cyrodiil PvP.
Is it perfect? No. But it is a lot closer to what we had before. And we are far from those excesses of ESO too.

Psiion

Greetings,

After editing some posts, we would like to remind everyone that Baiting is against the Forum's Community Rules and generally non-constructive. This is a reminder to keep the Community Rules in mind moving forward.

LeHarrt91

I have always like stat dense builds, this includes stat dense proc sets, like BSW, Necro, Bloodspawn, Clever Alch, Transmutation etc. What I felt was unhealthy for Cyrodiil was the Damage and Healing Procs (especially the sets that did both of those, ie Crimson) also in combination with Malacaths Band of Brutality.

newtinmpls

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Without sets being better than whats currently available there is no reason to purchase DLC for many players

Wait...what?

The only reason you buy DLC is to get "better sets"?

That is just such a weird way to play a game....but hey, if that's how you choose your Zone or chapter purchases, go with your bad self.

I do like sets that contribute to my builds, and frankly I've long enjoyed Seducer and Night's Silence for certain modes/play-styles (especially for lower level characters) and they are part of the base game.

My "second favorite" sets are the ones that proc critters; both monster sets and 5-bit sets. I don't need them to be "best in slot" since I don't do trials or PvP; I'm just here for relaxing fun.

Fawn4287

newtinmpls wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Without sets being better than whats currently available there is no reason to purchase DLC for many players

Wait...what?

The only reason you buy DLC is to get "better sets"?

That is just such a weird way to play a game....but hey, if that's how you choose your Zone or chapter purchases, go with your bad self.

I do like sets that contribute to my builds, and frankly I've long enjoyed Seducer and Night's Silence for certain modes/play-styles (especially for lower level characters) and they are part of the base game.

My "second favorite" sets are the ones that proc critters; both monster sets and 5-bit sets. I don't need them to be "best in slot" since I don't do trials or PvP; I'm just here for relaxing fun.

I play PvP almost exclusively, I have purchased every expansion and usually have ESO+ because there’s some grossly overperforming set of skill line every update, the only DLC zone I use is the alinor crafting area because of its layout and ease for writs when I’m bothered to do them, I think of the last expansion I haven’t been in other than to get the scrying and excavating skill line.

Pepegrillos

Fawn4287 wrote: »

[snip][/i] A skill gap is healthy and gives players a goal to work towards which has always been apparent in end game PvE but recently not visible thanks to gear in PvP. You shouldn’t just instantly win because you have superior gear and numbers, skill and tactics should always be the most important factor to winning multiplayer gaming.

The skillgap has always been there, the question is how big it has to be. If we consider Zos recent balance and design decisions, I suspect the answer Zos would give is: not that big.

(Just and example from the minor/major buffs rework made relatively recently. This is a quote from Wheeler: "Players with builds that aren’t 100% optimized will see an increase in power, while players utilizing all Majors/Minors at once in coordinated efforts will see a decrease in power." What does this suggest?)

Most of the sets you probably have in mind do precisely that. They reduce the gap. They turn rather inoffensive new or inexperienced players into actual dangers.

But that doesn't mean the skillgap has been erased, or that "skill and tactics" became irrelevant. Battlegrounds are a pretty decent example of this. If you had played bgs at the highest mmr bracket before greymoor, you would've found a set of recurrent players. If you play bgs in that mmr bracket now (or the past month, or throughout last year), to the surprise of some, you will find basically the same players.

No gear set in this game makes anyone instantly win, even when some of them are severely unbalanced, as we all have seen. When everyone plays against each other with more or less the same weapons, things end up being settled by "skill and tactics".

Fawn4287

Pepegrillos wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

[snip][/i] A skill gap is healthy and gives players a goal to work towards which has always been apparent in end game PvE but recently not visible thanks to gear in PvP. You shouldn’t just instantly win because you have superior gear and numbers, skill and tactics should always be the most important factor to winning multiplayer gaming.

The skillgap has always been there, the question is how big it has to be. If we consider Zos recent balance and design decisions, I suspect the answer Zos would give is: not that big.

(Just and example from the minor/major buffs rework made relatively recently. This is a quote from Wheeler: "Players with builds that aren’t 100% optimized will see an increase in power, while players utilizing all Majors/Minors at once in coordinated efforts will see a decrease in power." What does this suggest?)

Most of the sets you probably have in mind do precisely that. They reduce the gap. They turn rather inoffensive new or inexperienced players into actual dangers.

But that doesn't mean the skillgap has been erased, or that "skill and tactics" became irrelevant. Battlegrounds are a pretty decent example of this. If you had played bgs at the highest mmr bracket before greymoor, you would've found a set of recurrent players. If you play bgs in that mmr bracket now (or the past month, or throughout last year), to the surprise of some, you will find basically the same players.

No gear set in this game makes anyone instantly win, even when some of them are severely unbalanced, as we all have seen. When everyone plays against each other with more or less the same weapons, things end up being settled by "skill and tactics".

Theres a major difference between overpowered gear and major buffs though, necros running around with a 50% uptime on old major protection or stamdks with a near permanent uptime on old major mending was just way too op and balancing these strong buffs was a good idea. High MMR BGs is also about people that are bothered to play them and enjoy no CP, I find them sort of boring with group composition and getting the correct combination overlapping heals and buffs being the most important aspect. In the wrong update even 4 ults on a lot of groups won’t earn kills and doing 1.4-2M damage and earn 4 kills a game seems like time wasted.

I prefer the gameplay of solo to 3 vs larger groups in Cyrodil IC, whilst a couple of years ago kiting then turn and burning a group of low skill players with a high damage stacked combo used to be easy as many people ran reasonable builds, the last update these people that never did any damage and had a burstable health bar are now running around with 35k+ health, many in heavy with enough dots, poisons and procs buffed by malacath taking them from insignificant even grouped to being formidable in a group half the size.

Firstmep

Balanced more appropietly? Class inbalances are far more obvious in the current no-proc environment, then they were before,
which is no easy feat.

Fawn4287

Firstmep wrote: »

Balanced more appropietly? Class inbalances are far more obvious in the current no-proc environment, then they were before,
which is no easy feat.

Classes haven’t been drastically changed for years, however this gross imbalance is only now visible and obvious thanks to gear being standardised. If you look back many people including myself have made posts about the obscenities of mist form, streak and how magsorc is the only class with both a delayed (curse) and proc (c frag) damage ability most of which we met with overwhealming number of people who disagreed and were oblivious to until recently thanks to far greater equality in gear.

Firstmep

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Balanced more appropietly? Class inbalances are far more obvious in the current no-proc environment, then they were before,
which is no easy feat.

Classes haven’t been drastically changed for years, however this gross imbalance is only now visible and obvious thanks to gear being standardised. If you look back many people including myself have made posts about the obscenities of mist form, streak and how magsorc is the only class with both a delayed (curse) and proc (c frag) damage ability most of which we met with overwhealming number of people who disagreed and were oblivious to until recently thanks to far greater equality in gear.

Exactly what I was saying. The imbalance was already there and only made more apparent with this no proc environment.

jhharvest

newtinmpls wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Without sets being better than whats currently available there is no reason to purchase DLC for many players

Wait...what?

The only reason you buy DLC is to get "better sets"?

...

My "second favorite" sets are the ones that proc critters; both monster sets and 5-bit sets. I don't need them to be "best in slot" since I don't do trials or PvP; I'm just here for relaxing fun.

This is the PvP forums you're posting in, so people here do play PvP. I admit that I bought Greymoor for Malacath's band - of course this was 2 weeks before the no-proc test rolled in so I never tried it (and in fact didn't even bother farming the ring).

I think what this highlights is the vast difference in playstyle between those who play PvE casually, those who play PvE for leaderboards (or completionism) and those who play PvP. Personally I'd be happiest if there was a casual PvP option. I used to play a lot of under-50 which was fun because you could run bad builds and still not get erased immediately. Maybe we could have a campaign where all gear is grey base game gear only to discourage min-maxing. (:

EdmondDontes

.

Joy_Division

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Balanced more appropietly? Class inbalances are far more obvious in the current no-proc environment, then they were before,
which is no easy feat.

Classes haven’t been drastically changed for years, however this gross imbalance is only now visible and obvious thanks to gear being standardised. If you look back many people including myself have made posts about the obscenities of mist form, streak and how magsorc is the only class with both a delayed (curse) and proc (c frag) damage ability most of which we met with overwhealming number of people who disagreed and were oblivious to until recently thanks to far greater equality in gear.

We disagreed with you not because we think classes are balanced or because there isn't a problem. It's because you have posted many nerf threads and I disagree with 90% of the things you claim to be overperforming and need to be nerfed.

Streak has been in the game since launch. I've learned how to deal with it. It's fine. But the noticeable imbalances that have arisen and it becomes harder to deal with Streak and sorcerers in general since people who come onto these forums and for years insisted that my class passives and abilities need to be nerfed. Stop with the (class) nerfs. It's one of the reasons for the imbalances in the first place because it just makes certain classes lower tier and prompts so many people to go looking for proc sets to make up for the losses.

fxeconomisteb17_ESO

newtinmpls wrote: »

Wait...what?

The only reason you buy DLC is to get "better sets"?

Yes. Especially when it comes to dungeon DLCs. Zone DLCs, that's different.

Master_Kas

Calling this balance when it's a just a party for rollerblades and magsorcs. Honestly believe this is balanced?

[snip]

[Edited to remove Discussing Disciplinary Actions]

Jaraal

JayKwellen wrote: »

I for one think ZOS should impliment a feature in which when you post about PvP your build stats and sets from your most used PvP character(s) are automatically included in the signature line. Just rip the veil back and let us see what's behind the curtain. Would be of much use to see just how much skin in the "keep the proc dream alive" game people have.

Obviosuly this won't ever happen. But imagine?

Yeah, I'd like to see the KDR of all the folks spouting the 'purity' of stat/skill based play as well. How was that bringing a knife to a gunfight working out for you in all set enabled PvP?

Top players will be top players, regardless of gear. You can watch videos of streamers wearing proc sets ripping through packs of fringe players wearing Crimson/Syvarra's/Malacath/whatever. Don't blame your inability to compete on your preference for limited options. The war is won by he who makes the most of all the tools available to him.... regardless of what they are.

But this is all a moot point. Proc sets are a permanent part of PvE. They are available in all battlegrounds, and all Imperial City campaigns. And ZOS has stated that they will be back in Cyrodiil eventually. Do you know why that is? It's because gear sells content. They aren't interested in creating the purest form of PvP for a few elitists. (Start some duel tournaments if that's your passion.) No, they are interested in selling the most product possible, and the easiest way to do that is to raise the floor, rather than raising the ceiling. Sure, ZOS wants elite APM players with flawless internet connections on top systems subscribing........ but they also want everybody else to feel like they have a chance in the lag, or maybe get some gear that they can stay alive in longer than 5 seconds and so forth. And collecting is a big deal. Look how popular the set collection system has been. Do you really think a shift to 19 useable (5 or 6 viable) sets is in their corporate best interest?

We can talk about what is 'best' for PvP in the long run all day long. But the reality is that proc sets are here to stay. Claiming that theorycrafters or people who like having access to all the content they paid for are somehow inferior people because they aren't master button pushers / mouse clickers (even though many of them actually are) is disingenuous and elitist.

By the way, I'm running Beekeepers and Endurance plus assorted stat pieces ATM, and my no-proc KDR is about 4 to 1, same as when I wear (and compete against) proc sets. I'm an average PvPer.... but what sets I wear doesn't make or break me.

Fawn4287

Joy_Division wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Balanced more appropietly? Class inbalances are far more obvious in the current no-proc environment, then they were before,
which is no easy feat.

Classes haven’t been drastically changed for years, however this gross imbalance is only now visible and obvious thanks to gear being standardised. If you look back many people including myself have made posts about the obscenities of mist form, streak and how magsorc is the only class with both a delayed (curse) and proc (c frag) damage ability most of which we met with overwhealming number of people who disagreed and were oblivious to until recently thanks to far greater equality in gear.

We disagreed with you not because we think classes are balanced or because there isn't a problem. It's because you have posted many nerf threads and I disagree with 90% of the things you claim to be overperforming and need to be nerfed.

Streak has been in the game since launch. I've learned how to deal with it. It's fine. But the noticeable imbalances that have arisen and it becomes harder to deal with Streak and sorcerers in general since people who come onto these forums and for years insisted that my class passives and abilities need to be nerfed. Stop with the (class) nerfs. It's one of the reasons for the imbalances in the first place because it just makes certain classes lower tier and prompts so many people to go looking for proc sets to make up for the losses.

Magsorc has always been one of the strongest classes, especially solo and now people can see that. Streak was never a hard CC and didn’t have anywhere near the range it currently has, it now has far too much utility on one skill which is why sorcs can run such a complete tool kit. It sounds like you are aware that with everyone wearing the same low tier gear it now shows how grossly overperforming magsorc is in the current climate and are running around throwing trying to make excuses as to why it should stay the same with an army of people calling for nerfs? Personally I hate nothing about magsorc other than the 1 button survival of streak that allows a build without major expedition to outrun basically every other build in the game.

Fawn4287

" wrote:

By the way, I'm running Beekeepers and Endurance plus assorted stat pieces ATM, and my no-proc KDR is about 4 to 1, same as when I wear (and compete against) proc sets. I'm an average PvPer.... but what sets I wear doesn't make or break me.

I find that hard to believe that you are even killing anyone with that gear.

Jaraal

Fawn4287 wrote: »

I find that hard to believe that you are even killing anyone with that gear.

And yet.....

Fawn4287 wrote: »

You shouldn’t just instantly win because you have superior gear and numbers, skill and tactics should always be the most important factor to winning multiplayer gaming.

Oh, the irony!

Fawn4287

Jaraal wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

I find that hard to believe that you are even killing anyone with that gear.

And yet.....

Fawn4287 wrote: »

You shouldn’t just instantly win because you have superior gear and numbers, skill and tactics should always be the most important factor to winning multiplayer gaming.

Oh, the irony!

You came to complain about how much proc sets are part of the game, then call people who prefer using stat based gear and skills as opposed to proc set users as ‘master button pushers’ whilst talking about running a 5 piece and 3 piece set that boost nothing but max health and health recovery, I fail to see how you are killing 4 people to one death when your 2 highest stats are max health and health recovery.... next Im guessing you’re going to say you frontbar your sword and board or sit on it so much it may as well be.

Zabagad

I just wanna mention something to the claim: "Now you can see sorc are OP".
I would agree to that if we all would run naked now.

But we have some sets - and these sets prefer the sorc.

How would it look (just a very easy example to make it clear) if we all only could use:
1) Burning Spellweave
2) Silks of the Sun
3) Strength of the Automation
4) Ysgramor's Birthright
5) Netch's Touch
6) Light of Cyrodiil
7) Morag Tong
8) Sword-Singer
9) Sword Dancer
10) Spider Cultist Cowl
11) Swamp Raider
12) War Maiden

Really - don't go to much into the details - I just want to point out that MagSorcs are in favour of the current situation, bc of Alfiq and willpower, but that's not necessary a proof that MagSorcs are generally OP. I don't say it is not! I only doubt that this is the proof.

If ZOS had choosen other sets, maybe it would look different...

xDeusEJRx

Zabagad wrote: »

Really - don't go to much into the details - I just want to point out that MagSorcs are in favour of the current situation, bc of Alfiq and willpower, but that's not necessary a proof that MagSorcs are generally OP. I don't say it is not! I only doubt that this is the proof.

If ZOS had choosen other sets, maybe it would look different...

I only think sorcs are super strong right now because they have the best mobility of any class, even stam classes (with streak/ball of lightning) plus a combination of the best resource returning ability(dark conversion). They can just spam their streaks and dark conversion to heal and get magicka back and passively gain magic from the return over time. Most other classes don't have resource restore quite that effective. Since they have a seemingly indefinite source of magicka they can streak as much as they want and no one can catch them if they don't wanna be caught, so they can run and deal damage while no one can keep up. Even during the proc meta sorcs still had this as their safety net (double streak and dark conversion), streak/ball of lightning can counter most procs because they create a huge distance, especially if you double streak

Jayserix

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Really - don't go to much into the details - I just want to point out that MagSorcs are in favour of the current situation, bc of Alfiq and willpower, but that's not necessary a proof that MagSorcs are generally OP. I don't say it is not! I only doubt that this is the proof.

If ZOS had choosen other sets, maybe it would look different...

I only think sorcs are super strong right now because they have the best mobility of any class, even stam classes (with streak/ball of lightning) plus a combination of the best resource returning ability(dark conversion). They can just spam their streaks and dark conversion to heal and get magicka back and passively gain magic from the return over time. Most other classes don't have resource restore quite that effective. Since they have a seemingly indefinite source of magicka they can streak as much as they want and no one can catch them if they don't wanna be caught, so they can run and deal damage while no one can keep up. Even during the proc meta sorcs still had this as their safety net (double streak and dark conversion), streak/ball of lightning can counter most procs because they create a huge distance, especially if you double streak

I want to live in your world