buff deep slash & heroic slash damage

Alferinoeso

pls

Adenoma

Please let us DPS outside of 2H front bar. Don’t make us compromise CC for a DPS skill like you did with reverb.

Vetixio

Even tho I feel magicka needs buffs more than stam atm. 1H and Shield does need dps buffs and fixes it'd be nice to see stam players in Cyro not just using 2H and bow. Although the tank meta is/was very annoying they did gut 1H and Shield a bit too much.

paulsimonps

They won't for the same reason they keep messing with Frost Staff. Damage is not what they want from those skill lines.

Waffennacht

They had to lower damage from SnB cuz it was too Bamf; so I dont see them reverting that

wheem_ESO

1h/shield should never again be in a situation where it's a viable offensive weapon skill line, as it has way too much built in utility and defense. If certain classes might be able to make it work on their primary bar with class skills providing the vast majority of their damage (like Stam DK or something), then...ok whatever. But a viable offensive alternative to the other skill lines, while also keeping everything it currently has built in? Absolutely not. And you can't really nerf what's there now in order to add damage, since the PvE players would have an absolute hissy fit.

Extinct_Solo_Player

wheem_ESO wrote: »

1h/shield should never again be in a situation where it's a viable offensive weapon skill line, as it has way too much built in utility and defense. If certain classes might be able to make it work on their primary bar with class skills providing the vast majority of their damage (like Stam DK or something), then...ok whatever. But a viable offensive alternative to the other skill lines, while also keeping everything it currently has built in? Absolutely not. And you can't really nerf what's there now in order to add damage, since the PvE players would have an absolute hissy fit.

so basically everyone should be pigeonholed to dizzy swing because variety is not allowed lol.

wheem_ESO

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

1h/shield should never again be in a situation where it's a viable offensive weapon skill line, as it has way too much built in utility and defense. If certain classes might be able to make it work on their primary bar with class skills providing the vast majority of their damage (like Stam DK or something), then...ok whatever. But a viable offensive alternative to the other skill lines, while also keeping everything it currently has built in? Absolutely not. And you can't really nerf what's there now in order to add damage, since the PvE players would have an absolute hissy fit.

so basically everyone should be pigeonholed to dizzy swing because variety is not allowed lol.

That isn't what I said at all. Dual Wield and Bow builds (without Snipe) are very possible right now, though perhaps a bit too restrictive for some people's preferences (ie, having to do potentially significant amounts of PvE for Master DW, or run proc sets). But if 1h/shield has damage that's competitive with those other skill lines, it would mean that it suddenly becomes the default offensive weapon skill line for almost all Stamina builds.

If you're in favor of nerfing the utility and defense of 1h/shield enough so that it would be acceptable for it to have viable offensive damage output, feel free to make some more specific suggestions. Just keep in mind that the outcry from PvE players might be enough to crash the forums.

Extinct_Solo_Player

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

1h/shield should never again be in a situation where it's a viable offensive weapon skill line, as it has way too much built in utility and defense. If certain classes might be able to make it work on their primary bar with class skills providing the vast majority of their damage (like Stam DK or something), then...ok whatever. But a viable offensive alternative to the other skill lines, while also keeping everything it currently has built in? Absolutely not. And you can't really nerf what's there now in order to add damage, since the PvE players would have an absolute hissy fit.

so basically everyone should be pigeonholed to dizzy swing because variety is not allowed lol.

That isn't what I said at all. Dual Wield and Bow builds (without Snipe) are very possible right now, though perhaps a bit too restrictive for some people's preferences (ie, having to do potentially significant amounts of PvE for Master DW, or run proc sets). But if 1h/shield has damage that's competitive with those other skill lines, it would mean that it suddenly becomes the default offensive weapon skill line for almost all Stamina builds.

If you're in favor of nerfing the utility and defense of 1h/shield enough so that it would be acceptable for it to have viable offensive damage output, feel free to make some more specific suggestions. Just keep in mind that the outcry from PvE players might be enough to crash the forums.

It's already been nerfed in utility, for example minor maim is no longer 15% and reverb not having major defile. There's 2 morphs for each skill. It is not difficult to give one morph for damage spammable and one for utility. I don't see how snb is so op when the only thing that made it overperform was befoul cp with 10 sec major defile on reverb which both have been nerfed and removed. So there's no harm done adding variety in the choice of spammables for all classes who aren't a stamina warden or stamina necromancer. It doesn't mean everyone will flock over to snb for dps, it just adds variety and even pre snb nerf not everybody used it due to you needing to light attack skill bash weave to get the most out of it.

Dunning_Kruger

I hope to never see that block-lenoir turtle play style return. But guess that’s just me; rip Lenoir

wheem_ESO

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

1h/shield should never again be in a situation where it's a viable offensive weapon skill line, as it has way too much built in utility and defense. If certain classes might be able to make it work on their primary bar with class skills providing the vast majority of their damage (like Stam DK or something), then...ok whatever. But a viable offensive alternative to the other skill lines, while also keeping everything it currently has built in? Absolutely not. And you can't really nerf what's there now in order to add damage, since the PvE players would have an absolute hissy fit.

so basically everyone should be pigeonholed to dizzy swing because variety is not allowed lol.

That isn't what I said at all. Dual Wield and Bow builds (without Snipe) are very possible right now, though perhaps a bit too restrictive for some people's preferences (ie, having to do potentially significant amounts of PvE for Master DW, or run proc sets). But if 1h/shield has damage that's competitive with those other skill lines, it would mean that it suddenly becomes the default offensive weapon skill line for almost all Stamina builds.

If you're in favor of nerfing the utility and defense of 1h/shield enough so that it would be acceptable for it to have viable offensive damage output, feel free to make some more specific suggestions. Just keep in mind that the outcry from PvE players might be enough to crash the forums.

It's already been nerfed in utility, for example minor maim is no longer 15% and reverb not having major defile. There's 2 morphs for each skill. It is not difficult to give one morph for damage spammable and one for utility. I don't see how snb is so op when the only thing that made it overperform was befoul cp with 10 sec major defile on reverb which both have been nerfed and removed. So there's no harm done adding variety in the choice of spammables for all classes who aren't a stamina warden or stamina necromancer. It doesn't mean everyone will flock over to snb for dps, it just adds variety and even pre snb nerf not everybody used it due to you needing to light attack skill bash weave to get the most out of it.

So you're of the opinion that Stamina builds should be running around with all the benefits of using a 1h/shield - extra resistances, increased block mitigation, and decreased block cost - while also having instant cast abilities that hit roughly as hard as Dizzying Swing? Not to mention their secondary effects and the ability to block cast them while turtled up.

What changes to which morphs would be necessary, in your opinion, to make this sort of gameplay actually balanced, and not turn 1h/shield into the default Stamina weapon skill line for PvP? Feel free to put together a well written post on your proposal, and post it to the general discussion forum and/or PTS...just be ready for the PvE players to get pretty rabid if they think your suggestion(s) have even the slightest chance of ever being implemented.

DreadDaedroth

Zos lowered one and shield damage due whines and now it's unfun and boring.
Such changes should be reverted.

Extinct_Solo_Player

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

1h/shield should never again be in a situation where it's a viable offensive weapon skill line, as it has way too much built in utility and defense. If certain classes might be able to make it work on their primary bar with class skills providing the vast majority of their damage (like Stam DK or something), then...ok whatever. But a viable offensive alternative to the other skill lines, while also keeping everything it currently has built in? Absolutely not. And you can't really nerf what's there now in order to add damage, since the PvE players would have an absolute hissy fit.

so basically everyone should be pigeonholed to dizzy swing because variety is not allowed lol.

That isn't what I said at all. Dual Wield and Bow builds (without Snipe) are very possible right now, though perhaps a bit too restrictive for some people's preferences (ie, having to do potentially significant amounts of PvE for Master DW, or run proc sets). But if 1h/shield has damage that's competitive with those other skill lines, it would mean that it suddenly becomes the default offensive weapon skill line for almost all Stamina builds.

If you're in favor of nerfing the utility and defense of 1h/shield enough so that it would be acceptable for it to have viable offensive damage output, feel free to make some more specific suggestions. Just keep in mind that the outcry from PvE players might be enough to crash the forums.

It's already been nerfed in utility, for example minor maim is no longer 15% and reverb not having major defile. There's 2 morphs for each skill. It is not difficult to give one morph for damage spammable and one for utility. I don't see how snb is so op when the only thing that made it overperform was befoul cp with 10 sec major defile on reverb which both have been nerfed and removed. So there's no harm done adding variety in the choice of spammables for all classes who aren't a stamina warden or stamina necromancer. It doesn't mean everyone will flock over to snb for dps, it just adds variety and even pre snb nerf not everybody used it due to you needing to light attack skill bash weave to get the most out of it.

So you're of the opinion that Stamina builds should be running around with all the benefits of using a 1h/shield - extra resistances, increased block mitigation, and decreased block cost - while also having instant cast abilities that hit roughly as hard as Dizzying Swing? Not to mention their secondary effects and the ability to block cast them while turtled up.

What changes to which morphs would be necessary, in your opinion, to make this sort of gameplay actually balanced, and not turn 1h/shield into the default Stamina weapon skill line for PvP? Feel free to put together a well written post on your proposal, and post it to the general discussion forum and/or PTS...just be ready for the PvE players to get pretty rabid if they think your suggestion(s) have even the slightest chance of ever being implemented.

bro you don't even want to read my post and the valid points i made. It seems like you have a pretty biased view and/or never used snb for dps to know what made it overpowered a "major defile and befoul cp" and only theorize how OP it is lol. People will use snb regardless for defense so it wont change a thing apart from variety from the classes that lack a spammable that synergizes well with their playstyle (stam dks , stam sorcs and even stamplars). SNB was actually made a viable option for dps if you didnt know, like half the passives give you weapon damage, increased bash damage for weaving with the spammable and a reduced bash cost. It is much less overloaded than dizzying swing which will still be the top choice due to a snare, offbalance and a stun all from one ability costing around 2.2k stamina, whereas on sword and shield you have to factor in the cost of heroic slash (2.5k) for the spammable, reverberating bash for the stun (2.3k) and to weave in bash which costs 1.4k stamina which makes weaving heroic cost 3.9k stam per light attack heroic bash combo. I wouldn't say everyone would flock to snb dps if it got buffed but it would be a step in the right direction of build variety.

wheem_ESO

Reverberating Bash did not require Befoul CP in order to be overpowered - the ability was overloaded on its own, especially since the break free is often really delayed and laggy. It was quite widespread in no-CP BGs, and with good reason.

You're also ignoring the benefits of having a 1h/shield on your primary offense bar. People are complaining about a "tank meta" right now, do you think that would really get any better when so many heavy armor Stamina (but not Magicka) builds would be spending most of their time with extra resistances, block mitigation, and block cost reduction? All while Magicka builds are still using things like Crushing Shock and Elemental Weapon, doing far less damage per cast, not getting a 9k armor debuff and respectable self heal (thanks to Master weapons) at the same time, nor being able to block cast them on a turtled-up "offense" bar.

1h/shield is currently a very solid back bar option, and that's how it should stay. In theory, I'd be fine with it being an offense-oriented alternative to the other Stamina weapon lines, but there's simply no way ZOS can balance that without causing an unbelievably huge uproar from the PvE crowd. Plus, there are a lot of other things on their plate that should take precedence over making sure that Stamina has 4 strong offensive weapon lines instead of "only" 3, with another good back-bar option.

Adenoma

@wheem_ESO , I generally agree with your opinions on things, but I think for solo play it really feels like you have one viable offensive bar on most classes. I tend to play tankier builds - I used to be a S&B animation canceling/bar swapping machine on StamDK. It was resource-intensive (like the above example), but rewarding with utility and defense, but a crappy player couldn’t get the same DPS as a strong player (because weaving, obviously). I’d since moved to stamden (it’s basically DK in that it stole the place), stamcro (again, practically a DK in terms of rankings), and still play DK. You know what the weird thing in common between all these builds? They all run the same gearing in CP and no-CP because 2h is the only solo DPS choice that remains competitive without delving into master DW/rending to do a gear-specific build that only really works on certain classes anyway.

Sure - Magicka has one viable DPS line. That sucks. Stamina went from having three (DW with shrouded daggers, S&B with heroic/ransack bash, and then 2h) to having one: 2h. Let’s also not pretend that legitimate players would call bow a viable weapon outside of bombard and snipe chicanery.

We’re pissed because you’re pissed. We don’t want to have a single weapon line. You don’t want a single weapon line. We want choices just like you want choices.

Alferinoeso

I'm sorry to say, but no, s&b mainbar didnt make people insanely tanky, nor did everyone run it, not many people ran it at all
im sorry but if your saying "waa its unbalanced because people can perma block & spam their spammable still", then your clearly a sub-tier pvper, i dont think ive seen anyone in eso's duration perma hold block & spam heroic to kill people, it doesnt work
you know what it does work on though? mag dk
if you're a player that cant kill someone with a s&b not even blocking, then maybe you just arent as good as you believe you are

Pauwer

Make heavy armor and sword n board tank stuff only, no damage at all, but good defensive skills.

Just promoting balance and fun for pvp here

wheem_ESO

Adenoma wrote: »

They all run the same gearing in CP and no-CP because 2h is the only solo DPS choice that remains competitive without delving into master DW/rending to do a gear-specific build that only really works on certain classes anyway.

Sure - Magicka has one viable DPS line. That sucks. Stamina went from having three (DW with shrouded daggers, S&B with heroic/ransack bash, and then 2h) to having one: 2h. Let’s also not pretend that legitimate players would call bow a viable weapon outside of bombard and snipe chicanery.

2h, DW, and Bows are all 100% viable in the context of using proc sets, though some are obviously a bit more restrictive about which proc sets. Even with stat sets, Dual Wield is viable, if tricky/annoying to build for - I've seen a few people in BGs that were able to get ~7k damage out of a single Rapid Strikes. I know it's not the most fun thing to use in PvP, and builds doing that tend to be relatively squishy, but it's still better than trying to rely on Destruction Staff as an actual offensive skill line (rather than a vehicle for procs, and the only worthwhile burst-friendly stun for some classes).

I think it's far easier to argue in favor of DW/Bow being made more universally useful for offense than it is to buff 1h/shield. They'd just have to be careful to not cause too much of a shakeup in PvE, or overpower Stamina even more.

Alferinoeso wrote: »

I'm sorry to say, but no, s&b mainbar didnt make people insanely tanky, nor did everyone run it, not many people ran it at all
im sorry but if your saying "waa its unbalanced because people can perma block & spam their spammable still", then your clearly a sub-tier pvper, i dont think ive seen anyone in eso's duration perma hold block & spam heroic to kill people, it doesnt work
you know what it does work on though? mag dk
if you're a player that cant kill someone with a s&b not even blocking, then maybe you just arent as good as you believe you are

"Turtle up" doesn't mean perma-block 24/7 while in combat. Rather, I'm referring to the ability to still do significant damage while preventing counter-CC/pressure, and/or heal yourself back up. This would likely be a pretty ridiculous state of affairs with a heavily buffed 1h/shield skill line and Master weapons, even if not maintainable forever. That's part of the reason that the so-called "Clown Form" ultimates are strong; it's very difficult to counterpressure someone that transforms and goes max-offense, unless you have a team backing you up.

Alferinoeso

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

They all run the same gearing in CP and no-CP because 2h is the only solo DPS choice that remains competitive without delving into master DW/rending to do a gear-specific build that only really works on certain classes anyway.

Sure - Magicka has one viable DPS line. That sucks. Stamina went from having three (DW with shrouded daggers, S&B with heroic/ransack bash, and then 2h) to having one: 2h. Let’s also not pretend that legitimate players would call bow a viable weapon outside of bombard and snipe chicanery.

2h, DW, and Bows are all 100% viable in the context of using proc sets, though some are obviously a bit more restrictive about which proc sets. Even with stat sets, Dual Wield is viable, if tricky/annoying to build for - I've seen a few people in BGs that were able to get ~7k damage out of a single Rapid Strikes. I know it's not the most fun thing to use in PvP, and builds doing that tend to be relatively squishy, but it's still better than trying to rely on Destruction Staff as an actual offensive skill line (rather than a vehicle for procs, and the only worthwhile burst-friendly stun for some classes).

I think it's far easier to argue in favor of DW/Bow being made more universally useful for offense than it is to buff 1h/shield. They'd just have to be careful to not cause too much of a shakeup in PvE, or overpower Stamina even more.

Alferinoeso wrote: »

I'm sorry to say, but no, s&b mainbar didnt make people insanely tanky, nor did everyone run it, not many people ran it at all
im sorry but if your saying "waa its unbalanced because people can perma block & spam their spammable still", then your clearly a sub-tier pvper, i dont think ive seen anyone in eso's duration perma hold block & spam heroic to kill people, it doesnt work
you know what it does work on though? mag dk
if you're a player that cant kill someone with a s&b not even blocking, then maybe you just arent as good as you believe you are

"Turtle up" doesn't mean perma-block 24/7 while in combat. Rather, I'm referring to the ability to still do significant damage while preventing counter-CC/pressure, and/or heal yourself back up. This would likely be a pretty ridiculous state of affairs with a heavily buffed 1h/shield skill line and Master weapons, even if not maintainable forever. That's part of the reason that the so-called "Clown Form" ultimates are strong; it's very difficult to counterpressure someone that transforms and goes max-offense, unless you have a team backing you up.

I think you're completely missing what im asking for
i currently run stamina warden with s&b on my mainhand, i still apply great burst & shocker, im not some god tier never die always defensive person, of course i can turtle up & stay alive using the busted HP based healing, no doubt about that, the point is your making out like stam builds will become immortal with a simple buff to the damage that heroic slash & deep slash deals, im not asking for passive buffs, im asking for slight damage increases on those two morphs, not even by alot, simply to what it once was so other characters of mine & other people not on a warden can enjoy the s&b playstyle
in terms of preventing counter pressure, im sorry but people with a s&b out still take pressure, is till die, so does others using s&b, so theres no argument there
in terms of preventing counter CC, any decent player can do that without s&b and still sustain perfectly fine, if your comparing "clown form" ultimates with someone using s&b as their main bar then i dont even know what to say to you..
ill say again, mag dk can run mainhand s&b, all we want is the damage for heroic/deep slashed back to what it once was, not asking for a busted reverb like before

Trayyacakes

Alferinoeso wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

They all run the same gearing in CP and no-CP because 2h is the only solo DPS choice that remains competitive without delving into master DW/rending to do a gear-specific build that only really works on certain classes anyway.

Sure - Magicka has one viable DPS line. That sucks. Stamina went from having three (DW with shrouded daggers, S&B with heroic/ransack bash, and then 2h) to having one: 2h. Let’s also not pretend that legitimate players would call bow a viable weapon outside of bombard and snipe chicanery.

2h, DW, and Bows are all 100% viable in the context of using proc sets, though some are obviously a bit more restrictive about which proc sets. Even with stat sets, Dual Wield is viable, if tricky/annoying to build for - I've seen a few people in BGs that were able to get ~7k damage out of a single Rapid Strikes. I know it's not the most fun thing to use in PvP, and builds doing that tend to be relatively squishy, but it's still better than trying to rely on Destruction Staff as an actual offensive skill line (rather than a vehicle for procs, and the only worthwhile burst-friendly stun for some classes).

I think it's far easier to argue in favor of DW/Bow being made more universally useful for offense than it is to buff 1h/shield. They'd just have to be careful to not cause too much of a shakeup in PvE, or overpower Stamina even more.

Alferinoeso wrote: »

I'm sorry to say, but no, s&b mainbar didnt make people insanely tanky, nor did everyone run it, not many people ran it at all
im sorry but if your saying "waa its unbalanced because people can perma block & spam their spammable still", then your clearly a sub-tier pvper, i dont think ive seen anyone in eso's duration perma hold block & spam heroic to kill people, it doesnt work
you know what it does work on though? mag dk
if you're a player that cant kill someone with a s&b not even blocking, then maybe you just arent as good as you believe you are

"Turtle up" doesn't mean perma-block 24/7 while in combat. Rather, I'm referring to the ability to still do significant damage while preventing counter-CC/pressure, and/or heal yourself back up. This would likely be a pretty ridiculous state of affairs with a heavily buffed 1h/shield skill line and Master weapons, even if not maintainable forever. That's part of the reason that the so-called "Clown Form" ultimates are strong; it's very difficult to counterpressure someone that transforms and goes max-offense, unless you have a team backing you up.

I think you're completely missing what im asking for
i currently run stamina warden with s&b on my mainhand, i still apply great burst & shocker, im not some god tier never die always defensive person, of course i can turtle up & stay alive using the busted HP based healing, no doubt about that, the point is your making out like stam builds will become immortal with a simple buff to the damage that heroic slash & deep slash deals, im not asking for passive buffs, im asking for slight damage increases on those two morphs, not even by alot, simply to what it once was so other characters of mine & other people not on a warden can enjoy the s&b playstyle
in terms of preventing counter pressure, im sorry but people with a s&b out still take pressure, is till die, so does others using s&b, so theres no argument there
in terms of preventing counter CC, any decent player can do that without s&b and still sustain perfectly fine, if your comparing "clown form" ultimates with someone using s&b as their main bar then i dont even know what to say to you..
ill say again, mag dk can run mainhand s&b, all we want is the damage for heroic/deep slashed back to what it once was, not asking for a busted reverb like before

Serious question not trolling... What magicka do build used sword and shield for their offensive bar and not a back bar... Plenty of dks use destro bar for pressure and 1h shield for back bar healing but I don't see many the other way around... I'm intrigued

Sahidom

The would be cool to get a damage buff to deep slash in exchange for losing the CC effect, so it would be a better spammable for damage and weave CC effects (classic offense defense style)

Alferinoeso

kh

Sleep724

I would like a damage buff as well, because I’m biased, but I’d imagine with the buff to bash damage coming in the next patch with heavy armor and with additional help from the champion system it could be too OP while bash weaving the skill.

Extinct_Solo_Player

Sleep724 wrote: »

I would like a damage buff as well, because I’m biased, but I’d imagine with the buff to bash damage coming in the next patch with heavy armor and with additional help from the champion system it could be too OP while bash weaving the skill.

bash is only dealing around 600-800 damage on pts duels with 5 heavy and bash damage cp so it isnt a big increase from live

Sleep724

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Sleep724 wrote: »

I would like a damage buff as well, because I’m biased, but I’d imagine with the buff to bash damage coming in the next patch with heavy armor and with additional help from the champion system it could be too OP while bash weaving the skill.

bash is only dealing around 600-800 damage on pts duels with 5 heavy and bash damage cp so it isnt a big increase from live

And that’s using 1/h and shield as well?

Dorkener

Well, on live it's doing like 120 dmg, so it's a quite significant increase... whether it's worth it... too early to tell.

Urzigurumash

Weaving Deep Slash was fun when it was rewarding. I would happily trade the snare and even the Maim for more damage, or like somebody else once said, let us equip Duel Shields if Power Bash is the hardest hitting S&B skill. I don't think Deep Slash drove the complaints about S&B skills before their damage nerf as much Reverb, Ransack and Heroic Slash. If Heroic Slash needs a buff now, maybe give it the snare. Deep Slash never finds a way onto my bars now, and Heroic Slash only for 1v1 setups and PvE tanking.