Feb 15 Cyrodiil Test Details

jaws343

I think people really are failing to understand sets in this game. For the final set bonus (5th piece, 3rd piece, 2nd piece, or 1 piece items) the sets all act 1 of three ways:

1. Add to base stats at all times. These sets add set value amounts of stats to base stats. Sets like Hundings where a set value of weapon damage is added to your base weapon damage at all times, no matter what you are doing.
2. Proc Damage or healing. These sets produce some sort of additional damage or healing based on proc conditions. This is most monster sets and a ton of the proc sets that are often complained about normally.
3. Stat/Damage Augmenting sets. These sets don't add flat values to your base stats at all times. They require some sort of proc condition or they only enhance a specific type of damage or reduce costs to specific things. These sets are often reliant on your base stats to operate. These appear to be the ones that people can't seem to understand for some reason.

The 3rd type of sets don't provide base stats at all time. For example, Seducers never reduces the cost of your abilities at all times, it reduces the cost at cast. There are a number of skills and passives that can reduce the cost of your abilities that then Seducer is further reducing on top of that. Because of that, Seducer always has to run a check to see the current cost of an ability and then perform it's function on top of that. Some abilities could have multiple costs depending on the order of actions or the passives active on the bar the player is currently on.

A set like Ancient Dragonguard is literally functioning based on your currently health levels. So as your health percentage yo-yos around, the set is actively tracking that and making decisions on which part of the proc you will recieve.

A set like Swamp Raider is adding damage on top of skills, but that damage is not being added to your base damage, so the set has to check what skills you are activating, or what damage types are being used to calculate the damage of that skill with the Swamp Raider proc added on.

Something like Medusa or Chudan is giving you a unique buff. And it is probably constantly needing to check to see if you are gaining this buff from another source. Or more likely, those other sources are constantly needing to check to see if you already have this buff from the sets. Either way it is a buff that is being added that requires a check.

All of the type 3 stuff is mostly things we don't really think too much about because it isn't something that shows up on a character sheet. But with mostly everyone running 3 differing types of proc sets at this point, there is clearly a point to be made that these sets have been continuously eroding the value of gameplay on the server.

Sleevez340

Ok well I may have not fully understood "repeat server checks" and its likely that I still don't but I'll trust that you're right.

I also fully understand the frustration and wanting the lag handled. This being the only way to test this specific thing. I really hope the performance doesn't get fixed as a result if this. And only because of some of the things you just mentioned above. If they rework cyrodiil seta to be flat bonuses its just gonna pull all kinds of build diversity out of the game. Keeping all the 85% of sets out of pvp.

All speculation obviously. But that's the vibe I get with such an idea.

techyeshic

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sleevez340 wrote: »

None of these sets have procs, yes some have buffs. But that wasn't stated. And for instance alteration mastery and battlefield acrobat. Flat reduction. That's considered a check?

Who actually wants to run around cyrodiil with 15 different sets available in the game?

I do to be honest 😂 if it means I don't have to fight 40k hp tanks in proc sets... I am so done with this meta.

I hope it is successful and they only adapt sets that increase stats. I'm certain sets like briarheart, nma, seducer, night mothers etc... Can be adapted to be more efficient. It seems strange they need to do constant checks as Brian described seducer. Procs that do free damage or free heals can be buffed and left for overland content or potentially trials 👍

Same here. Although, I for seem reason think people will try to stick to stacking 40k health. They just won't be able to kill anything.

Tberg725

So this test is happening only on PC? Have seen some say it’s only happening on PC BUT if it’s gonna be on console to I’d like to spend a day before getting my gear together

Ranger209

Sleevez340 wrote: »

Ok well I may have not fully understood "repeat server checks" and its likely that I still don't but I'll trust that you're right.

I also fully understand the frustration and wanting the lag handled. This being the only way to test this specific thing. I really hope the performance doesn't get fixed as a result if this. And only because of some of the things you just mentioned above. If they rework cyrodiil seta to be flat bonuses its just gonna pull all kinds of build diversity out of the game. Keeping all the 85% of sets out of pvp.

All speculation obviously. But that's the vibe I get with such an idea.

Build diversity is a double edged sword in PvP. On the one hand it is fun, and engaging trying to maximize your character which I do enjoy. Tackling specific content to get the right gear, and doing so again as new content is introduced and older sets are tweaked is part of the charm as well. On the other hand it makes PvP much more gear dependent, and much less skill dependent. It also becomes a balancing nightmare as there are around 500 to the third power permutations to balance around. aka 125 million different combinations. That is far more daunting than grinding 3600 CP.

Perhaps build diversity of this magnitude is better off left in PvE land. Even there it causes issues with large DPS discrepancies. A lot of that is due to player skill, but it is not an insignificant amount that is due to gear there as well. Fortunately for the end game PvE community NPC's don't cry for nerfs nearly as often as PvPers do. I would suggest that limiting the gear sets would accentuate skilled gameplay, as well as be easier to balance around for PvP.

Sleevez340

Well the more people reply the more I change my mind it seems. You bring a very valid point. I guess as a theory crafter I love the idea of having so many options. But hate that only so few are actually great.

Guess I'll just wait until Monday and check it out. Thanks for validating your argument and making me less negative toward Mondays patch!

Banetek

actosh wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler if these tests show a significant performance increase, will we see a divide into "in cyro working sets aka pvp sets" and "pve/bg" sets?

Or will the proc conditions on sets and the checks just reduced/reworked?

U should run this test again for a week after flames of ambition is released to see how big the impact will be then.

Keep those tests coming.

Would be sad kinda if it will limit creative proc conditions in the end but cyro needs good performance.

Can I have your stuff?

Dr_Ganknstein

Did we find out if 1 monster set piece will work? Like will we be able to get the 1 piece bonus?

Banetek

Liam12548 wrote: »

I'm actually so excited for this test. I had basically signed off on ESO as reaching a state where there was no chance it could ever improve, balance or performance wise. But this is the first thing I've seen in the past 3 years that actually gives me hope, and I'll be playing during it.

From someone with thousands of hours invested into pvp, my experience tells me that stat based gameplay is the best choice for the game moving forward. Many people look back at the days when the game revolved around stats as some of the best in it's history, and in all of the "serious" pvp communities this sentiment is pretty widely shared.

When stats determine the effectiveness of your build, you are required to actually learn the combat system, the effects of every class/ability/status effect, the potential of your different set options, etc. With this in mind, pvp not only becomes more balanced, but it becomes a skill based environment where you are rewarded for your TIME INVESTMENT instead of your SET CHOICES.

It's impossible to survive outnumbered right now because players who do not care about learning the combat system can just equip two sets that will out DPS a full damage spec with little to no effort. You get lingering proc sets on you from multiple people doing nothing but light attacking that will literally out dps ALL of your healing/warding, even when you are line of sighting these players. There is no counterplay at all to these sets. Even running the other end of broken builds by using ridiculously high health recovery sets in combination with endless mist form, something that a year ago would have been unkillable with no damage at all, you are completley unable to survive just a few people mindlessly applying procs to you.

I'm all for "play how you want", but when it comes to PVP you have to understand that while sets exist that can do the same dps with a fraction of the effort as a skilled player using stat based damage sets, people will never try to learn the combat and the game will revolve solely around sets forever.

If this test results in a significant performance increase, I truly hope zenimax will do the right thing and choose to keep it as a permanent change moving forward. You will receive a huge vocal outcry against it here on the forums, because so many players here are strictly casual and benefit HUGELY from these sets. But I guarantee you will see the return of serious pvp players who actually care about the combat aspect of pvp, and they will be ecstatic to finally enjoy a stat based pvp experience.

Casually paying a monthly subscription is just as beneficial as a power player paying a monthly subscription. The benefit to catering to one group of player over the other is a benefit only to the power player.

Its not a benefit to the casual who pays just as much and just as often as the power player and who uses less resources as the power player.


I used to be that power player in wow, 218 days of actual image time played out of 1 year... Than I got my stuff together and got a job. Now when Im working I might be off 6 days a week and in game 3 days a week. I don't want a game that rewards people who live in game over me outside of anything but actual talent.

The one good thing I give Z is making the trials sets pve focused which is fair because I don't get to do many trials.

I'm happy if they made pvp gear only and separated it OR made it so pvp gear was earned or crafted. Everything else is pure pve...


I would not mind if they made pvp tokens that allowed people to add a pvp stat to the gear which allowed it to be used for pvp or something along them lines. MOST people who play eso have lives and jobs. Power players should respect that and be happy we pay just as much but use less resources , leaving most of the resources aka servers , bandwidth etc to the power players

WreckfulAbandon

Is there a reason Agility is not on the list?

Tommy_The_Gun

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Is there a reason Agility is not on the list?

It is on the list:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The full list of Sets which are not affected by this test are as follows:

• Amber Plasm
• Armor of the Trainee
• Beekeeper’s Gear
• Crafty Alfiq
• Draugr Hulk
• Endurance
• Fortified Brass
• Grace of the Ancients
• Hunding’s Rage
• Impregnable Armor
• Law of Julianos
• Leviathan
• Mother’s Sorrow
• Plague Doctor
• Shacklebreaker
• Spinner’s Garments
• Spriggan’s Thorns
• Willpower Agility

Although they placed it in same point as Willpower

Minyassa

I've been combing through this trying to get a grasp on it myself--I do not do a lot of gear work so I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to gear and terminology. So, looking at some of the sets that are on the list, "raw stat" is not just Ability scores (if you look up the word "stat" in the Fextralife wiki, it describes abilities) but also things that result from ability scores, like damage, crit chance, penetration, recovery, armor and crit resistance. If I google "eso stats" I get all sorts of things, from Abilities to everything in my last sentence to all of the above including riding skills and PvP kills. So I think I *might* have it narrowed down but just to check:

Are they talking about solely everything that pops up in the column immediately to the right of the visual representation of your gear on the Inventory page and between the Ability scores and Riding Skills on the Character page?

actosh

Banetek wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler if these tests show a significant performance increase, will we see a divide into "in cyro working sets aka pvp sets" and "pve/bg" sets?

Or will the proc conditions on sets and the checks just reduced/reworked?

U should run this test again for a week after flames of ambition is released to see how big the impact will be then.

Keep those tests coming.

Would be sad kinda if it will limit creative proc conditions in the end but cyro needs good performance.

Can I have your stuff?

Nope i will staycause there is no other game that comes close to eso [snip]

Will enjoy pvp even more without "carry me sets"

[Edited to remove Bashing]

Tigor

Ready?

DTStormfox

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
I am still missing some items from the list of sets that are not affected, which should be included according to the criteria you set. The following sets do not have a proc or condition which is driven by an ability, and are pure stat gains:

Willow's path - Increases your Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery by 25% (similar to Amber Plasm set).
Pelinal's Aptitude - Your Spell and Weapon Damage both become the highest of the two values.


I don't know if the following sets fit the criteria because they also apply to other group members but they do not have a proc or condition which is driven by an ability, and are pure stat gains:

Ebon Armory - Increases your Max Health by x for you and up to 11 other group members within 28 meters of you.
The Worm's Raiment - Grants x Magicka Recovery to you and up to 11 other group members within 28 meters of you.
Hircine's Veneer - Grants x Stamina Recovery to you and up to 11 other group members within 28 meters of you.


Maybe debatable, but these sets do not have to check before-hand what type of ability is cast:

Alteration Mastery - Reduces the cost of all of your abilities by 6%.
Battle Acrobat - Reduces the cost of all of your abilities by 6%.


Not sure about these set though because I don't know if the cost increase is calculated after or before blocking, sprinting, dodging, or breaking free. If these cost increases are calculated after, they do not belong in the list but if these cost increases are calculated before, they do belong in the list:

Aetherial Ascension - Adds x Armor. Increases the cost of Block, Sprint, Dodge, and Break Free by 20%.
Footman's Fortune - Increases the amount of damage you block by x%.

agegarton

This looks awesome - and it's good to know that work is still underway to improve overall game performance. It'll make PVP quite interesting for a few weeks (maybe the idiots who just want to play kiss chase around a tree or rock can go find something else to play.....?) and the double AP will make it busy.

Noice

Bucky_13

DTStormfox wrote: »

I am still missing some items from the list of sets that are not affected, which should be included according to the criteria you set. The following sets do not have a proc or condition which is driven by an ability, and are pure stat gains:

Willow's path - Increases your Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery by 25% (similar to Amber Plasm set).
Pelinal's Aptitude - Your Spell and Weapon Damage both become the highest of the two values.


I don't know if the following sets fit the criteria because they also apply to other group members but they do not have a proc or condition which is driven by an ability, and are pure stat gains:

Ebon Armory - Increases your Max Health by x for you and up to 11 other group members within 28 meters of you.
The Worm's Raiment - Grants x Magicka Recovery to you and up to 11 other group members within 28 meters of you.
Hircine's Veneer - Grants x Stamina Recovery to you and up to 11 other group members within 28 meters of you.


Maybe debatable, but these sets do not have to check before-hand what type of ability is cast:

Alteration Mastery - Reduces the cost of all of your abilities by 6%.
Battle Acrobat - Reduces the cost of all of your abilities by 6%.


Not sure about these set though because I don't know if the cost increase is calculated after or before blocking, sprinting, dodging, or breaking free. If these cost increases are calculated after, they do not belong in the list but if these cost increases are calculated before, they do belong in the list:

Aetherial Ascension - Adds x Armor. Increases the cost of Block, Sprint, Dodge, and Break Free by 20%.
Footman's Fortune - Increases the amount of damage you block by x%.

Willow's: if you cast a skill that increases your regen, the set does a check since it's % based. If it was 400 flat recovery for example, it would've been fine. Now it's a proc tho.

Pelinal's: also checks your stats constantly. Let's say you cast rally, which increases weapon damage, or switch to a bar with a Fighter's guild skill on it, both those will cause the set to make a check, same when the buff drops off or you switch back.

In short, both sets are not pure stat gains and are driven by conditions that procs them.

For Alteration & Battle Acrobat, that has already been explained in the thread.

Basically, anything based on % is very likely to be a proc, since our stats change a lot depending on spells cast and slotted, not to mention different gear bonuses or different bars. Or things tied to abilities, when you dodge, fame makes a check to apply the reduction from your gear. This seems to be why Night's Silence also is affected.

For Ebon armor, that one contains a ton of checks, since the game needs to figure out who's 28 meters within you, it 100% belongs on the list considering how many checks it does if you're in a 12 person group. It then procs for those who are within 28 meters of you.

Edit: just a clarification. A set like Hundings Rage doesn't check against anything else, it just adds flat stats depending on how many pieces that are equipped and the quality of them. A set like Willows Path and everything not on the list makes checks against something else which is why they are affected. Some are probably worse than others, but drawing a line in the middle would muddle the tests, so removing everything that is dependent on another source makes the most sense. And I think this is why it isn't as obvious to everyone why some of the sets are affected.

Ratzkifal

Minyassa wrote: »

I've been combing through this trying to get a grasp on it myself--I do not do a lot of gear work so I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to gear and terminology. So, looking at some of the sets that are on the list, "raw stat" is not just Ability scores (if you look up the word "stat" in the Fextralife wiki, it describes abilities) but also things that result from ability scores, like damage, crit chance, penetration, recovery, armor and crit resistance. If I google "eso stats" I get all sorts of things, from Abilities to everything in my last sentence to all of the above including riding skills and PvP kills. So I think I *might* have it narrowed down but just to check:

Are they talking about solely everything that pops up in the column immediately to the right of the visual representation of your gear on the Inventory page and between the Ability scores and Riding Skills on the Character page?

@Minyassa Pretty much. Everything that pops up in your character stat sheet immediately and has no further conditions attached to it (like Eternal Vigor or New Moon Acolyte have) is unaffected by this. All sets with proc conditions or effects that need to make checks, like Seducer, are disabled. This also seems to apply to sets that provide you with minor or major buffs, so no Slimecraw or Chudan.

Faded

It's only confusing if you make it confusing.

• Does the set do anything based on a percentage of anything that varies from player to player so it would have to check your stats and inform the server? Then it's out. (Gives 200 stat recovery good, gives N% of your stat recovery bad.)
• Does the set do anything that requires a check to know if you meet a condition at the moment? (If ______ then _______.) Then it's out. Conditions include things like is this ability you're casting a magic ability and are you in a group right now and is your health currently above or below 50 percent.
• Does the set do ANYTHING BUT give you and only you flat numerical buffs that would be exactly the same for the dude next to you if he wore your armor? It's out.

If it's not on their list at this point, they didn't overlook it: it's considered a proc by their system, for the purposes of this test. Pieces of monster sets that add a flat value to your stats are go. The rest is out.

Lord_Draevan

Sorry if this has been asked before but I don't want to read through 14 pages of replies:

Just to be sure I'm clear on this, the entire set isn't disabled, only the part that isn't a pure stat gain.
For example with Valkyn Skoria, 1 piece is the pure stat gain (Spell Pen), 2 piece is the proc (meteor). Only the meteor is disabled but the Spell Pen remains active, correct?

Azurya

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Sorry if this has been asked before but I don't want to read through 14 pages of replies:

Just to be sure I'm clear on this, the entire set isn't disabled, only the part that isn't a pure stat gain.
For example with Valkyn Skoria, 1 piece is the pure stat gain (Spell Pen), 2 piece is the proc (meteor). Only the meteor is disabled but the Spell Pen remains active, correct?

correct, so better take 2 different monster sets to the battlefield

itscompton

Starshadw wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

On a another note, when talking about condition checks; why not clear the in combat state after a couple minutes or so of not taking damage? Seems if I hit someone (or heal someone who has) and we both walk away; I am tied to them and enter and exit combat when they do, meaning there is a constant check with potentially a mass amount of players to get each others combat state.

Funny you should mention this.... they have tried previously to fix this. They implemented a fix and it worked for a while, but then got broken again in whatever the next update was, and has been broken ever since.

Yeah that month where it actually let you out of combat like it is supposed to was awesome. What I don't get is they can't get out of combat to function correctly yet I lose my Assassins Will/Scourge proc the second a player or NPC dies or even if they just break LOS for more than a couple of seconds.

Starshadw

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So what if... what if, the down-hill performance, primarily in pvp, but also in other parts of the game are a result of more players (globally) using proc sets ? I mean all of those additional checks, that server has to perform, multiplied by the amount of players in EVERY part of the game (pvp, pve, overland, trials) at the same time...

Makes sense to me, I would not be surprised if this was the case.

Yep, I mentioned this several pages back. If they discover these sets are indeed leading to the issues we have in Cyro, changes are very good they are also the reason for the increased lag we've been seeing outside of Cyro. Which means that they probably should re-vamp and re-think if-then/proc sets altogether.

SshadowSscale

Anyone know if the 1 piece bonusses from monster sets will still work?

relentless_turnip

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Anyone know if the 1 piece bonusses from monster sets will still work?

Yes they will 👍

red_emu

Can't say I'll be changing builds for the test. Too much work between all the characters. Some of them will simply have to be parked up, as not every class has the damage or healing on par with others and without the procs are just gonna be completely crippled, no matter how much you pump up the stats with non-affected sets.

Jaraal

red_emu wrote: »

Can't say I'll be changing builds for the test. Too much work between all the characters. Some of them will simply have to be parked up, as not every class has the damage or healing on par with others and without the procs are just gonna be completely crippled, no matter how much you pump up the stats with non-affected sets.

Yeah, I loaded up an "approved" build for a test run, and it took me over twice as long to capture a resource.


Going to be an eye opener, for sure!

ghost_bg_ESO

after marcarth dropped and all CTD

ghost_bg_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_BillE
additional info:
as much as my character wears some set (or two) that create visual effect i have some freezing at first shot. the moment i remove piece of gear to destroy the set and effect there is no freezing when i'm shooting, but didn't played long enough if i will ctd again...
but this doesn't explain way i also got ctd when deconstructing jewelry (or partially doesn't explain: vivec is always full with people).
something else i'm seeing after last patch is change of lightning: i don't expect to see sunlight patterns in cave for example.
with other character i didn't had any ctd but had couple of disconnects, but only eso lost connection to internet/servers.
it is just observation from when i played, didn't put effort to track how my pc works with msi afterburner or some other software.
as i said probably had to post it at bug reports, but at-least it receives some attention

another one: if you are incredibly desperate try to play it with armor sets without aoe, only pure 5th stats- more crit, more damage, more armor etc... either it will work or will be another ctd.

ghost_bg_ESO wrote: »

armor effects/animations (5th piece) still make small freezing - way smaller after clean install (atleast for me). as i play mostly solo and in dungeons i still have moments where game hangs close to ctd and i don't want to imagine how will be stability in groups; blocking/bashing is so much desinced that it is pointless to use.

i think it will mask the symptom but not solve the problem...

and some theorycrafting
some time-based cross-reference between server and client logs may give more info (if it is possible to be done).

(it is from pve perspective where similar problems exist)

dem0n1k

Daaayyyyyyumm... now when I lose a fight I'll have to blame myself! Not the proc sets & such like I usually do LOL

techyeshic

dem0n1k wrote: »

Daaayyyyyyumm... now when I lose a fight I'll have to blame myself! Not the proc sets & such like I usually do LOL

I would bet you'll still be able to blame lag. Always will have that.