Recent PvP changes

Pauwer

Ye, it makes sense that these changes only benefit organized groups, which is like maybe 10% of cyro players. Which i guess would point a finger on these "streamers". My question is that why anyone would watch such crap players that they need this to score kills? I can see better gameplay on my own screen

Tigor

Healers are only succesfull in a group, when a healer wants to join a full group with to few healers, then friendly ask someone to step out. Healers are wanted.

Ranger209

ThePedge wrote: »

"Solo" healing makes no sense, because if you're alone then who are you healing?

Playing solo doesn't mean you are playing alone. You are playing with small groups, large groups, and many other solo players all in the same vicinity. Playing solo in this case simply means that you are not in a formal group. There may be 30 ungrouped solo players all fighting together over the same objective. At any given point any of those 30 can peel out and go do something else if they choose since they are not beholding to any group of people. They may all go the same direction after the event that has brought them together, or they may go several different ways. The thing is they all have the freedom to make up their own individual minds what is next for them.

Some look at the map and pick a hot spot. Some look at the map and see a keep under duress they wish to help defend. Some look at the map and see an enemy keep under duress that they want to help attack. Some go turn in quests. Some go AFK. It is this freedom to do what they want, when they want, as they see fit, at any moment in time that is attractive to this type of solo player. This player is not the 1vX solo player, it is someone who just wants the freedom to make their own choices on how they play the game. They play in large masses of allied players, they just don't formally group with them. They are by themselves, but not alone.

ThePedge

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

2. Very good change.

I will disagree. Strongly.

This change has divided the player-base (to a point I have never seen in ESO or any other mmo game). You don't do that in MMOs. You do not divide player base like that, especially if you want new players to join PvP. Remember, ESO was successful because for the most part it stayed true to its motto: "Play as you want" This change however... umm.... kinda nope.

It is very weird and inconsistent. I mean, you can not heal other players, but you can res them or place a camp for them. Also, if they have for example Vicious Death on them and are about to die, you can not heal them... but you still get damaged by Vicious Death proc.

No cross-healing means that there should also be no cross-dmg too...

^ Logic behind this is the same as behind cross-healing removal. I hope that maybe it shows how weird and out of place cross healing removal feels like... (Yeah, imagine if group could not deal dmg to solo players and vice-versa... ).

Also, I would kinda understand this change if it brought some reasonable server performance improvement... but it did not, performance is the same as before (kinda bad), and on top of it we can not heal each other. Pretty much only ones that think this was good idea are "old stagers" elitists type of players who for whatever reason think that Cyro is just their's guild's playground, and no one else is welcome.

Sorry for any accidental offence (if there was any). I am just expressing my opinion.

Performance is still bad, yes, but it's best it's been since Harrowstorm.

You can still play the game as you want, you just might not be effective. I see nothing wrong with that.

You can play a redguard nightblade healer, of course. Is it a good idea? No.

You can play solo in Cyrodiil, you can play solo as a healer in Cyrodiil, is it a good idea? No.

They slightly raised the skill floor for healing in Cyrodiil in that you now need to be able to join and follow a group.

ThePedge
"You can still play the game as you want, you just might not be effective"

I disagree. In my opinion the change to disallow ungrouped healing differs from all other changes like skill buffs/nerfs etc in that it makes a certain role/playstyle impossible not simply ineffective.

Prior to the change to healing, if you wanted to play as healer or hybrid dps/healer but not be in a group (for which there are many reasons, for examples see https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7067439#Comment_7067439 which I'm sure you have read but linking it for anyone else who is interested) then you could. And you could pick any race/class build you want but it would vary in effectiveness, as you point out.

So yes, I could be a redguard nightblade healer if I wanted. Sure it might not be optimal but I could do it and still perform the role that I want to.
And for many they would be happy to do that because how they have fun in the game is tied to the role they play and the type of character they play so they are willing to give up a bit of effectiveness or have a harder time as long as they can meet those things.

Following the healing change it is basically impossible to play as a healer without being in a group. Not ineffective, but impossible.
So if that style of play is how a player primarily enjoyed playing, then they are out of luck. It's not like they can choose to do it but be less effective, they simply can no longer choose to play like that at all.

In my case I am one of those players. I was happy to keep playing the way I wanted despite it becoming comparatively weaker over time (especially compared to others). My preferred character in Cyrodiil is a hybrid dps/healer melee magblade and even though I am less successful on it than other options its still the character I want to play. I don't mind that its less effective, for me its about having fun. But, for many of the reasons listed in the previously linked posts, I prefer to play ungrouped. Primarily, I enjoy the freedom and independence it brings, but still like interacting and being able to assist with my fellow alliance-mates when and how I choose.

The healing change prevents this character from functioning how I want it to. Could I change the build or join groups to address this? Sure, but that would mean the character is no longer fulfilling the role and feel want it to. I would no longer have fun playing it.
So I don't. Play that is. Or hardly at all since the change. Not that not playing is to make point or anything, but simply: The change means I no longer enjoy playing like I used to, so I don't feel the desire to play.

So while I get that this change may not negatively impact you, in fact it may indirectly benefit your rate of success because it has disadvantaged some of your opponents, please understand that for others out there like myself it has meant we can no longer enjoy the game as we previously could. Consider what your position would be if ZOS made a some other restriction that simply made your preferred playstyle(s) impossible.

Plus I just don't see what the benefits to the game as a whole are.
Performance? ZOS have said this wasn't improved. Beyond the comment by ZOS while there have been comments both ways its all anecdotal and it doesn't really seem like anything has changed.
My smart heals now always target me when solo? Surely there is a better way to achieve this (ie: the skills themselves), rather than making skills no longer function as they are described or were designed.
What else is there? Faction stack is weakened, groups are empowered? This just seems like a nerf or buff depending on your playstyle so is a bit of a wash.

I guess that's why I don't understand the outrage.
"Solo" healing makes no sense, because if you're alone then who are you healing?
If you're with a big group of your own faction, just join their group, no? Problem avoided.

Imagine thinking that 12 players is a "big group" for PVP healers who used to be able to heal every ally near them on the battlefield.

Problem not avoided, when we consider the problem that healers are outraged to be massively nerfed and forced into limited groups.

But maybe I'm mistaken and those big primetime fights over Chalman, BRK, and Aleswell were actually just a 12 v 12.

[Quoted post was removed]

Are you continuing to misrepresent the healing nerf because your 4-man squad benefits from ZOS nerfing their opponents?

Ungrouped healers went from being able to heal ally near them to no one else.

Grouped healers went from being able to heal every ally near them to only 11 other people.

That's not dramatics. That's simply what happened. [snip]

"Just join a group" doesn't avoid or solve either problem when we look at this from the perspective of a PVP healer who wants to support ALL their nearby allies, not that of a 4-man small scale PVPer who typically fights by themselves and who's opponents got nerfed by ZOS.

"I don't understand the outrage."

Well, no. You don't. To quote Upton Sinclair, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Joining a group solves all problems.
Healing has been balanced so that it only affects group members, therefor if you want to heal, join a group.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Sanctum74

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

2. Very good change.

I will disagree. Strongly.

This change has divided the player-base (to a point I have never seen in ESO or any other mmo game). You don't do that in MMOs. You do not divide player base like that, especially if you want new players to join PvP. Remember, ESO was successful because for the most part it stayed true to its motto: "Play as you want" This change however... umm.... kinda nope.

It is very weird and inconsistent. I mean, you can not heal other players, but you can res them or place a camp for them. Also, if they have for example Vicious Death on them and are about to die, you can not heal them... but you still get damaged by Vicious Death proc.

No cross-healing means that there should also be no cross-dmg too...

^ Logic behind this is the same as behind cross-healing removal. I hope that maybe it shows how weird and out of place cross healing removal feels like... (Yeah, imagine if group could not deal dmg to solo players and vice-versa... ).

Also, I would kinda understand this change if it brought some reasonable server performance improvement... but it did not, performance is the same as before (kinda bad), and on top of it we can not heal each other. Pretty much only ones that think this was good idea are "old stagers" elitists type of players who for whatever reason think that Cyro is just their's guild's playground, and no one else is welcome.

Sorry for any accidental offence (if there was any). I am just expressing my opinion.

Performance is still bad, yes, but it's best it's been since Harrowstorm.

You can still play the game as you want, you just might not be effective. I see nothing wrong with that.

You can play a redguard nightblade healer, of course. Is it a good idea? No.

You can play solo in Cyrodiil, you can play solo as a healer in Cyrodiil, is it a good idea? No.

They slightly raised the skill floor for healing in Cyrodiil in that you now need to be able to join and follow a group.

ThePedge
"You can still play the game as you want, you just might not be effective"

I disagree. In my opinion the change to disallow ungrouped healing differs from all other changes like skill buffs/nerfs etc in that it makes a certain role/playstyle impossible not simply ineffective.

Prior to the change to healing, if you wanted to play as healer or hybrid dps/healer but not be in a group (for which there are many reasons, for examples see https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7067439#Comment_7067439 which I'm sure you have read but linking it for anyone else who is interested) then you could. And you could pick any race/class build you want but it would vary in effectiveness, as you point out.

So yes, I could be a redguard nightblade healer if I wanted. Sure it might not be optimal but I could do it and still perform the role that I want to.
And for many they would be happy to do that because how they have fun in the game is tied to the role they play and the type of character they play so they are willing to give up a bit of effectiveness or have a harder time as long as they can meet those things.

Following the healing change it is basically impossible to play as a healer without being in a group. Not ineffective, but impossible.
So if that style of play is how a player primarily enjoyed playing, then they are out of luck. It's not like they can choose to do it but be less effective, they simply can no longer choose to play like that at all.

In my case I am one of those players. I was happy to keep playing the way I wanted despite it becoming comparatively weaker over time (especially compared to others). My preferred character in Cyrodiil is a hybrid dps/healer melee magblade and even though I am less successful on it than other options its still the character I want to play. I don't mind that its less effective, for me its about having fun. But, for many of the reasons listed in the previously linked posts, I prefer to play ungrouped. Primarily, I enjoy the freedom and independence it brings, but still like interacting and being able to assist with my fellow alliance-mates when and how I choose.

The healing change prevents this character from functioning how I want it to. Could I change the build or join groups to address this? Sure, but that would mean the character is no longer fulfilling the role and feel want it to. I would no longer have fun playing it.
So I don't. Play that is. Or hardly at all since the change. Not that not playing is to make point or anything, but simply: The change means I no longer enjoy playing like I used to, so I don't feel the desire to play.

So while I get that this change may not negatively impact you, in fact it may indirectly benefit your rate of success because it has disadvantaged some of your opponents, please understand that for others out there like myself it has meant we can no longer enjoy the game as we previously could. Consider what your position would be if ZOS made a some other restriction that simply made your preferred playstyle(s) impossible.

Plus I just don't see what the benefits to the game as a whole are.
Performance? ZOS have said this wasn't improved. Beyond the comment by ZOS while there have been comments both ways its all anecdotal and it doesn't really seem like anything has changed.
My smart heals now always target me when solo? Surely there is a better way to achieve this (ie: the skills themselves), rather than making skills no longer function as they are described or were designed.
What else is there? Faction stack is weakened, groups are empowered? This just seems like a nerf or buff depending on your playstyle so is a bit of a wash.

I guess that's why I don't understand the outrage.
"Solo" healing makes no sense, because if you're alone then who are you healing?
If you're with a big group of your own faction, just join their group, no? Problem avoided.

Imagine thinking that 12 players is a "big group" for PVP healers who used to be able to heal every ally near them on the battlefield.

Problem not avoided, when we consider the problem that healers are outraged to be massively nerfed and forced into limited groups.

But maybe I'm mistaken and those big primetime fights over Chalman, BRK, and Aleswell were actually just a 12 v 12.

[Quoted post was removed]

Are you continuing to misrepresent the healing nerf because your 4-man squad benefits from ZOS nerfing their opponents?

Ungrouped healers went from being able to heal ally near them to no one else.

Grouped healers went from being able to heal every ally near them to only 11 other people.

That's not dramatics. That's simply what happened. [snip]

"Just join a group" doesn't avoid or solve either problem when we look at this from the perspective of a PVP healer who wants to support ALL their nearby allies, not that of a 4-man small scale PVPer who typically fights by themselves and who's opponents got nerfed by ZOS.

"I don't understand the outrage."

Well, no. You don't. To quote Upton Sinclair, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Joining a group solves all problems.
Healing has been balanced so that it only affects group members, therefor if you want to heal, join a group.

If your complaint is that you don't want to join a group, then either don't play a healer or don't complain.

There was a shortage of crowns before the change, now with the group size reduction it can take hours to find a good group. Personally it doesn’t affect me as a solo dps, but for people who have done nothing but heal for 5 years it’s a slap in the face and many people have left the game because of it.

udaba

Its like Zenimax wants to destory its game ... I hope one day they fix the PvP ...

VaranisArano

At this point, I'm elaborating more for any Devs who might possibly read this feedback.

First and foremost, limiting heals to groups of 12 players only is very damaging to the Alliance part of the Alliance War in Cyrodiil. Instead of every Ebonheart Pact warrior working together to capture Castle Alessia, the Devs have divided us up into groups of 12 players, where the only people on my team are the 11 other people in my group and the rest of them just happen to have red shields and be killing the yellow shield guys at the same Castle.

1.Its very problematic for alliance loyalty, as it makes supporting other allied groups in battle pointless. Their deaths are "not my problem" because there's nothing I can do to heal them. The only thing I can do is kill our mutual enemies.
I see someone
2.It puts a big disadvantage on informal grouping, which used to be commonplace as players organically went to fight at important objectives for their faction, be that small scale by capturing and defending resources or large scale actions like defending keeps, Emperor pushes or capturing Elder Scrolls. Simple actions like assisting another player in retaking a resource or answering a zone chat call to go defend a keep now put ungrouped players at a healing disadvantage unless they stop and group up first.
3.It creates some very problematic situations where I cannot heal the ungrouped ally who's repairing the wall or standing on the flag next to me who gets attacked by a bomber, but I will take damage from the Vicious Death proc if they die.
4.It assumes a false equivalence to numbers, as though all 12-man groups are equal. In reality, we see what happens when one 12-man group has voice comms, dedicated support roles and sets, and tightly moves and attacks together vs a 12- man PUG raid who LFG'd in zone chat and who might not even have a healer in group. Prior to this change, ball groups were already strong in outnumbered fights. The predictable result of this change is that ball groups weren't touched while their less organized opponents had their group size and healing slashed. The same is true of small scale groups. Organized groups weren't hurt by the change, but their less organized opponents now get less healing.


Second, it greatly nerfs the playstyle of PVP healers who used to be able to heal every allied player near them, and who are now limited to only healing the 11 other players they were forced to group up with.

"Just join a group if you want to heal" is miserably insufficient as a solution for PVP healers who have lost the freedom that every other build in Cyrodiil enjoys: getting to jump into the action without tying themselves to a group.

1.It assumes you can find a group without waiting a long time.
2.It assumes you can find a competent group, so that playing with them is actually enjoyable.
3.It assumes you can find a group doing the sort of content you want - if I want to fight for my EP faction, I'm not going to be happy with a group who wants to skirmish on Alessia bridge, and so I'm back to looking for group, again.
4.It assumes that your group will stick together for the whole of your playtime, instead of your crown going off for lunch break or whatever after an hour. Once the leave train starts, a group can break up pretty fast, and you're back to LFG.
5.It assumes that if you have a regular pre-made group, like a PVP guild, that they are available whenever you want to play your healer in Cyrodiil.
6. Its often accompanied by the suggestion that "If you don't like the groups on offer, make your own!" as though being expected to use your limited playtime to lead PUGs now instead of just playing, fighting, and healing is an acceptable demand. It assumes that everyone is experienced enough to feel comfortable leading PUGs and that this is fun for everyone, rather than stressful.

It also assumes that your healer is okay with watching players die who previously you could have saved. Instead, you get to watch ungrouped allies die without doing anything.
See an ungrouped player get ambushed? "Not your groupmate. Not your problem."
See an ungrouped quester get ganked? "Not your groupmate. Not your problem."
See another allied group holding a ram under heavy siege fire? "Not your groupmates. Not your problem." (Nevermind that we might lose the keep fight if they all die.)
See the enemy ball group target another allied group for an ultimate dump? "Not your groupmates. Not your problem." (Nevermind hat we might lose the fight if they all die.)

What it does is force PVP healers to tie their limited playtime and their agency to the hope that they'll find a group in a timely fashion and that their group is playing in an enjoyable and competent fashion. It postulates that PVP healers should be happy with "a group, any group" without considering that groups vary widely in quality and goals in Cyrodiil...and also that PVP healers should be happy with forced grouping even though they used to have the freedom to not follow any one group in particular if they didn't want to while still being able to play effectively as a healer. Finally, it removes the ability of healers to actually heal any ally who needs it even while our allies outside of our group are vital to the success or failure of the overall battle.


All in all, this seems designed to take Cyrodiil in a more "self-sufficient" direction, specifically a mindset in which the only people who matter are your 11 groupmates while the rest of your faction merely happen to be meatshields who are fighting the same enemies at the same battle.

Personally, I think that's the antithesis of the Alliance War, in which we used to fight and heal alongside every nearby ally to fight over important objectives for our entire faction. I also think its contrary to the freedom of players to decide when and where they want to play. Yes, grouping has many benefits in a group-oriented PVP mode like Cyrodiil, but forcing players to either play totally self-sufficient builds, group up before they can jump into the action, or accept that they'll take a massive healing disadvantage is a punitive way to enforce grouping, not an encouragement to group. Its removing freedom of choice from your players and forcing us into a thus-far-unexplained "behavioral change" that the Devs say they like.


Devs, I hope that you consider the impact of your behavioral changes. And if you decide that these consequences are not merely acceptable but indeed desirable, then I have one request:

I'd like to know, in detail, exactly what were the behavioral changes you liked so much that you expect me to be happy to sacrifice my PVP healer's ability to heal her whole faction to achieve those changes.

Faded

VaranisArano wrote: »

At this point, I'm elaborating more for any Devs who might possibly read this feedback.

[detailed feedback]

Devs, I hope that you consider the impact of your behavioral changes. And if you decide that these consequences are not merely acceptable but indeed desirable, then I have one request:

I'd like to know, in detail, exactly what were the behavioral changes you liked so much that you expect me to be happy to sacrifice my PVP healer's ability to heal her whole faction to achieve those changes.

It would be nice to know what was so awesome this seemed like a good trade. I have a feeling we're going to be unimpressed, if they ever bother to say.

Imagine spending time and money on something developed by Zenimax ever again.

Joy_Division

VaranisArano wrote: »

At this point, I'm elaborating more for any Devs who might possibly read this feedback.

**List of correct implications from the changes] **

I'd add one more thing. The change is tailored toward Cyrodiil's elite.

Whenever the maximum allowed gets reduced, the less experienced, less talented, less connected, etc., get cut, get the pink slip, get downsized, and in general get out.

Wolfpaw

Pauwer wrote: »

Ye, it makes sense that these changes only benefit organized groups, which is like maybe 10% of cyro players. Which i guess would point a finger on these "streamers". My question is that why anyone would watch such crap players that they need this to score kills? I can see better gameplay on my own screen

My guess...

Healing & group restrictions is a beta test for a upcoming mid size new PvP zone.

The group & healing restrictions don't make sense in the Cyrodiil enviroment.

Healing and group restriction has done nothing to improve performance.

The "behavorial" excuse is a joke.

Multi target/AOE damage stays unrestricted.

A change in group size is unnecessary with the healing restrictions.

The many new types of Cyrodiil performance issues remind me of beta stress tests to collect additional data beyond the norm.

One of the best ways to reduce performance problem in one area is to reduce the amount of players in that area.

To reduce the amount of players in that area & keep them in the game is to create another area.

Sewers is not really a popular PvP or PvE map, & ZOS gave it away free...PvE players enjoy the pve side of it, but hate the pvp. PvP players dislike it (except WW packs, NB's, tel var farmers) as you can't fart w/o hitting pve.

BG's are for the players that enjoy small-scale no cp pvp.

So where does that leave us? A new mid-size Cyrodiil-like 12player group pvp map. Alliance war? All out GvG map? No allegiance open pvp zone? I hope it's so!

Anet did the same thing with WvWvW, if I remember correctly, with the Edge of the Mists map.

Beaverton

Waseem wrote: »

My favorite PvP guild relies on the group of 24 players.

we always had the healer, DD, and tank and in addition to that,
we had the hilarious jokes DD
we had the healer who heals the healer
we had the scout
we had the siege guinea pig

NOW IT'S ALL DOWN TO 12

NO MORE PROPER COMMUNICATION IN GUILD DISCUSSIONS
MARGINALLY LESS ORGANIZATION
PVP IS NO LONGER FUN
BUT A STRESS INDUCING EXPERIENCE THAT WE'RE BETTER OFF WITHOUT

I only count 7 roles there so you have space for a few more critical spots:

zone chat spammer
designated salt distributor
map guy (I'm not sure why it is a guy but it always has been in my groups)
teabagger
secondary teabagger

That brings it to 12. For 24 do you just double it or are there more important roles out there?

Gardarik

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

2. Very good change.

I will disagree. Strongly.

This change has divided the player-base (to a point I have never seen in ESO or any other mmo game). You don't do that in MMOs. You do not divide player base like that, especially if you want new players to join PvP. Remember, ESO was successful because for the most part it stayed true to its motto: "Play as you want" This change however... umm.... kinda nope.

It is very weird and inconsistent. I mean, you can not heal other players, but you can res them or place a camp for them. Also, if they have for example Vicious Death on them and are about to die, you can not heal them... but you still get damaged by Vicious Death proc.

No cross-healing means that there should also be no cross-dmg too...

^ Logic behind this is the same as behind cross-healing removal. I hope that maybe it shows how weird and out of place cross healing removal feels like... (Yeah, imagine if group could not deal dmg to solo players and vice-versa... ).

Also, I would kinda understand this change if it brought some reasonable server performance improvement... but it did not, performance is the same as before (kinda bad), and on top of it we can not heal each other. Pretty much only ones that think this was good idea are "old stagers" elitists type of players who for whatever reason think that Cyro is just their's guild's playground, and no one else is welcome.

Sorry for any accidental offence (if there was any). I am just expressing my opinion.

Performance is still bad, yes, but it's best it's been since Harrowstorm.

You can still play the game as you want, you just might not be effective. I see nothing wrong with that.

You can play a redguard nightblade healer, of course. Is it a good idea? No.

You can play solo in Cyrodiil, you can play solo as a healer in Cyrodiil, is it a good idea? No.

They slightly raised the skill floor for healing in Cyrodiil in that you now need to be able to join and follow a group.

ThePedge
"You can still play the game as you want, you just might not be effective"

I disagree. In my opinion the change to disallow ungrouped healing differs from all other changes like skill buffs/nerfs etc in that it makes a certain role/playstyle impossible not simply ineffective.

Prior to the change to healing, if you wanted to play as healer or hybrid dps/healer but not be in a group (for which there are many reasons, for examples see https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7067439#Comment_7067439 which I'm sure you have read but linking it for anyone else who is interested) then you could. And you could pick any race/class build you want but it would vary in effectiveness, as you point out.

So yes, I could be a redguard nightblade healer if I wanted. Sure it might not be optimal but I could do it and still perform the role that I want to.
And for many they would be happy to do that because how they have fun in the game is tied to the role they play and the type of character they play so they are willing to give up a bit of effectiveness or have a harder time as long as they can meet those things.

Following the healing change it is basically impossible to play as a healer without being in a group. Not ineffective, but impossible.
So if that style of play is how a player primarily enjoyed playing, then they are out of luck. It's not like they can choose to do it but be less effective, they simply can no longer choose to play like that at all.

In my case I am one of those players. I was happy to keep playing the way I wanted despite it becoming comparatively weaker over time (especially compared to others). My preferred character in Cyrodiil is a hybrid dps/healer melee magblade and even though I am less successful on it than other options its still the character I want to play. I don't mind that its less effective, for me its about having fun. But, for many of the reasons listed in the previously linked posts, I prefer to play ungrouped. Primarily, I enjoy the freedom and independence it brings, but still like interacting and being able to assist with my fellow alliance-mates when and how I choose.

The healing change prevents this character from functioning how I want it to. Could I change the build or join groups to address this? Sure, but that would mean the character is no longer fulfilling the role and feel want it to. I would no longer have fun playing it.
So I don't. Play that is. Or hardly at all since the change. Not that not playing is to make point or anything, but simply: The change means I no longer enjoy playing like I used to, so I don't feel the desire to play.

So while I get that this change may not negatively impact you, in fact it may indirectly benefit your rate of success because it has disadvantaged some of your opponents, please understand that for others out there like myself it has meant we can no longer enjoy the game as we previously could. Consider what your position would be if ZOS made a some other restriction that simply made your preferred playstyle(s) impossible.

Plus I just don't see what the benefits to the game as a whole are.
Performance? ZOS have said this wasn't improved. Beyond the comment by ZOS while there have been comments both ways its all anecdotal and it doesn't really seem like anything has changed.
My smart heals now always target me when solo? Surely there is a better way to achieve this (ie: the skills themselves), rather than making skills no longer function as they are described or were designed.
What else is there? Faction stack is weakened, groups are empowered? This just seems like a nerf or buff depending on your playstyle so is a bit of a wash.

I guess that's why I don't understand the outrage.
"Solo" healing makes no sense, because if you're alone then who are you healing?
If you're with a big group of your own faction, just join their group, no? Problem avoided.

Imagine thinking that 12 players is a "big group" for PVP healers who used to be able to heal every ally near them on the battlefield.

Problem not avoided, when we consider the problem that healers are outraged to be massively nerfed and forced into limited groups.

But maybe I'm mistaken and those big primetime fights over Chalman, BRK, and Aleswell were actually just a 12 v 12.

[Quoted post was removed]

Are you continuing to misrepresent the healing nerf because your 4-man squad benefits from ZOS nerfing their opponents?

Ungrouped healers went from being able to heal ally near them to no one else.

Grouped healers went from being able to heal every ally near them to only 11 other people.

That's not dramatics. That's simply what happened. [snip]

"Just join a group" doesn't avoid or solve either problem when we look at this from the perspective of a PVP healer who wants to support ALL their nearby allies, not that of a 4-man small scale PVPer who typically fights by themselves and who's opponents got nerfed by ZOS.

"I don't understand the outrage."

Well, no. You don't. To quote Upton Sinclair, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Joining a group solves all problems.
Healing has been balanced so that it only affects group members, therefor if you want to heal, join a group.

[snip]

And how about we restrict 830 CP (or whatever CP is maximum on live) to deal mg only to players 630 CP+? And those below CP 630 to those above 430, etc etc. it will balance PvP so that vets can't simply farm newbs. Don't like it? Well, this is precisely how the healers feel.

Nor only this change is idiotic immersion-wise, it takes away the freedom to choose your fights. Want to join group and be more effective than an average pug? Sure you can. You want to be less effective for whatever reason and heal outside the group? Well, before I could, now I can't. It is, however, less a matter of PvP efficiency and balance and more of a comfort of gameplay. I don't want to follow some *** crown to stay for ages at the door of Brindle. I simply want to help my alliance players here and now.

Also, bcs there is no adequate group-forming tool in ESO unlike WOW or Warhammer Online or else, this change is especially stupid.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Agalloch

[quote=

Anet did the same thing with WvWvW, if I remember correctly, with the Edge of the Mists map.[/quote]

GW2 still have WvW with no restrictions...no healing/damage/aoe ..etc nerfs . I play WvW in GW2 when I'd like to play Cyrodiil in ESO . Since november 2020 when ZOS butchered Cyrodiil I preffer WvW in GW2 ..because you feel like you aid the whole faction ( world..server) not only 12 people. I hate playing a huge battleground map as Cyrodiil tranformed in since november 2020. I hope all the changes will be reverted. I want to play PVP in Cyrodiil again.

English is not my native language.

Wolfpaw

Agalloch wrote: »

[quote=

Anet did the same thing with WvWvW, if I remember correctly, with the Edge of the Mists map.

GW2 still have WvW with no restrictions...no healing/damage/aoe ..etc nerfs . I play WvW in GW2 when I'd like to play Cyrodiil in ESO . Since november 2020 when ZOS butchered Cyrodiil I preffer WvW in GW2 ..because you feel like you aid the whole faction ( world..server) not only 12 people. I hate playing a huge battleground map as Cyrodiil tranformed in since november 2020. I hope all the changes will be reverted. I want to play PVP in Cyrodiil again.

English is not my native language.

[/quote]

I meant the opening of a new pvp map to relieve stress from the main map.

I agree with you, Anet has done a much better job with largescale pvp...everything pvp.

No apologies necessarily, it's just a video game forum 😉.

Ryath_Waylander

Waseem wrote: »

Ryath_Waylander wrote: »

Hmm and are you a healer pray tell?

I am a player, apparently speaking on behalf the thousands of players who already quit PvP after playing for YEARS thanks to reduction in groups size

Hi @Waseem sorry for the miscommunication. My comment was directed to the one immediately prior to mine by "The Pedge" who has mentioned before on another thread that they are a regular 4 person group and happy with the changes.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

DUTCH_REAPER

before we revert or keep changes can we fix the servers first?

Starshadw

VaranisArano wrote: »

Godspeed wrote: »

It’s sad how this game started out as one of if not the best pvp mmo on the market.

Then the lighting patch came. Now a few years and many changes including the most recent later. ESO is now the worst mmo pvp wise on the market.

Yeah, I mean, I can understand the bind ZOS was in. Can you really be a great PVP MMO if your system is publicly vulnerable to hacking and cheating? Meteor spam makes for bad publicity.

It's just a pity that their solution of moving everything server-side seems to have been very much less than ideal in the long term.

And sadly, it didn't actually do anything to stop the hacking and cheating. *sad, cynical laughter*