Why the 12 man group cap in Cyrodiil is bad for the game

Mr_Nobody

Id love to see a test with no purge for a week.

dotme

12-person group cap on PS4 NA (console) has reduced zone text chat to an endless stream of LFGs

There aren't enough crowns. I'm 95% solo so I really don't care, but I think it's very detrimental to any *new* player dipping their toes in the PvP waters for the first time.

• Enters Cyrodiil for the first time
• Spend 15 minutes unsuccessfully trying to find a group so they can learn the ropes
• Can't heal anyone, dies repeatedly to ball groups
• Leaves

ZOS in a post about the group size reduction acknowledged that it did nothing for performance. They "liked" the behavioral changes. Yikes. So they build one of the most massive battle games available on console, then nerf it.

Bergzorn

dotme wrote: »

There aren't enough crowns.

That's what the crown store is for.






Sorry, I had to...

Pauwer

No new players will want to pvp, because no one invites random people anymore, because they have guild mates waiting for space in the group. Also, with a small group, you kind of want people who know what they are doing and can play their role. And for new solo player, no heals for you buddy. Then you have 35k healt damage trains hitting you from all sides. Which new player will think cyro is fun and go there again?

NeillMcAttack

But surely a functioning Cyro has a better chance of retaining players than some PowerPoint presentation on what Cyro could possibly be!!

Thraben

dotme wrote: »

12-person group cap on PS4 NA (console) has reduced zone text chat to an endless stream of LFGs

There aren't enough crowns. I'm 95% solo so I really don't care, but I think it's very detrimental to any *new* player dipping their toes in the PvP waters for the first time.

• Enters Cyrodiil for the first time
• Spend 15 minutes unsuccessfully trying to find a group so they can learn the ropes
• Can't heal anyone, dies repeatedly to ball groups
• Leaves

ZOS in a post about the group size reduction acknowledged that it did nothing for performance. They "liked" the behavioral changes. Yikes. So they build one of the most massive battle games available on console, then nerf it.

Clear incencitives for group leaders (who take newer players with them) are needed, and an in-game- ui which offers simple commands directly projected to the screen of the PuGs (like cursor forward for "Advance 10meters").

Sandman929

dotme wrote: »

12-person group cap on PS4 NA (console) has reduced zone text chat to an endless stream of LFGs

There aren't enough crowns. I'm 95% solo so I really don't care, but I think it's very detrimental to any *new* player dipping their toes in the PvP waters for the first time.

• Enters Cyrodiil for the first time
• Spend 15 minutes unsuccessfully trying to find a group so they can learn the ropes
• Can't heal anyone, dies repeatedly to ball groups
• Leaves

ZOS in a post about the group size reduction acknowledged that it did nothing for performance. They "liked" the behavioral changes. Yikes. So they build one of the most massive battle games available on console, then nerf it.

Absolutely true about healers in Cyrodiil. A lot of new players especially won't want to simply start their own groups, so if a healer doesn't get picked up they simply can't do anything in Cyrodiil.

Mr_Nobody

Healers in PvP

Kappa

danwtayl

LFGing was a common theme way before the reduction of group sizing to 12. People don't want to run groups. They would rather join someone else and follow. I get that, running groups can be hard.

I often thought that solos upon entering Cyrodiil should automatically be placed in a "starter group" so they don't spend their time looking for one. Give them some small bonus for being in it similar to groups formed by activity finder or give special objectives to complete.

As is, most crowns don't want to pickup a random person LFGing as they are generally always looking for know players. The game is too mature at this point to waste time with unknowns.

ExistingRug61

danwtayl wrote: »

LFGing was a common theme way before the reduction of group sizing to 12. People don't want to run groups. They would rather join someone else and follow. I get that, running groups can be hard.

I often thought that solos upon entering Cyrodiil should automatically be placed in a "starter group" so they don't spend their time looking for one. Give them some small bonus for being in it similar to groups formed by activity finder or give special objectives to complete.

As is, most crowns don't want to pickup a random person LFGing as they are generally always looking for know players. The game is too mature at this point to waste time with unknowns.

In my experience crowns of groups I've been in were picking up the randoms as well as having a number of guildies/friends in group as well. When the group size was at 24 it meant it was rare that a group would be full entirely of guildies and we always seemed to have room for some others to join. Not sure if this is still the case now that the groups are smaller - its much more likely it will fill up purely with guildies, and thus there is no room for randoms.

The smaller group size also exacerbates the issue of a shortage of people wanting to be crown. With the group size halved, we now need twice as many crowns to end up with the same number of people in groups.

Starshadw

Between the testing and the useless changes implemented, I've watched as our PvP guild population has vanished. Previously, on our guild event nights, we regularly found ourselves running two raids, sometimes with even a small third overflow group. That's more than 50 players. Now? We're lucky if we even get 12 on most nights. The rest have given up - many of them left the game entirely.

As a templar healer main, I can't even go in and contribute solo anymore, so instead of PvPing 4-6 times a week? I'm lucky if I get two nights in.

It's really a shame, what has been done to Cyrodiil.

mielyn

I have continued playing in Cyrodiil with small and large man groups since the 12 man cap started. I must say, the issues it has caused on GUILD behavior are still negative IMO.

What I notice most is an INTENSE amount of faction stacking now. When you have one or two 12 man groups running close to each other (Whether they are being lead by the same leader or not is almost irrelevant). You take two full groups and try to take a keep. The enemy faction shows up with what feels like the entire faction, and then it's a sheer "overwhelm by numbers" game at that point. We can't cross heal. We can't see what the other team is doing truly. And on top of that, the performance lags so bad, you barely feel like you can get any of your skills to go off. I am seeing constant crashes to desktop lately, during these faction stacks. I am seeing skill delays. Inability to swap bars. Rubber banding. You name it. You know, all those things that people were complaining about BEFORE these changes went live, now seem to be even worse. Oh, and I am not even talking about Gray Host, FWIW. My guild avoids that server like the plague.

But the REAL problem is the morale killer that I see in people. The game was DESIGNED and RELEASED with the idea that Cyrodiil would be a LARGE SCALE PVP ZONE. Hey, if they had set it to 12 man group size from the get go, nobody would complain about group size. But most of the hardcore PVPers have been PVPing for YEARS. And we were given a 24 man group cap to play with. 24 man is perfect. A very fun group composition for that zone is between 16 and 20. Plus, this promotes the ability to take on NEW players more easily, because a larger group can carry a less experienced player much more easily than a 12 man group can. (Not to mention that 12 man groups often are full, and stay full, so that's that.)

I know a few people are still arguing that 12 man group size is best. I understand the viewpoint. But ultimately, if these "permanent" changes kill off all the regular guilds in PVP, then PVP as a whole will slowly lose steam. And with the end of PVP comes the end of a chunk of the player base. And that is just not good for any game.

I do hope that ZOS at least starts responding to some of these requests about reverting some of these recent game-damaging changes.

techyeshic

As I just posted in another thread

I think people would be better off if they stopped just calling for "ball group" nerfs or to be dissolved, and in stead asked for HOT stacking and insta-purge of multiple players at once being able to be spammed to be nerfed. That seems to be the only thing really affected by 12 man group size limits with no healing outside of groups and its just silly that the real issue is not addressed while they in stead limit group size so much in what's supposed to be a large scale PvP zone.

dotme

This needs to be reverted, along with heal changes.

Also, on PS4 NA, if you're the 11th or 12th person invited to group, there's a good chance accepting the invitation will kick you completely out of the game (And when you log back in, you're out of Cyrodill and you get to queue up all over again)

renne

dotme wrote: »

This needs to be reverted, along with heal changes.

Also, on PS4 NA, if you're the 11th or 12th person invited to group, there's a good chance accepting the invitation will kick you completely out of the game (And when you log back in, you're out of Cyrodill and you get to queue up all over again)

Exactly. It's heaps irritating when you're joining a trial group, but would be infuriating when you have to queue even just to get back into Cyrodiil.

Kwoung

Really dislike the 12 person limit. I won't go as far as to say it has completely ruined my guilds newbie PVP day each week, but way to many players are being left out, or stuck in a second group with no healing, which doesn't lead to a fun Cyrodiil experience on any level.

We have gone from a strictly PVE guild, to now having a good 1/3 of our members hit Cyro pretty regularly due to us helping players work their way into it and learn from folks who at least somewhat know what they are doing. This 12 person limit reduces the number of new players who may come to enjoy PVP.

And yeah... we used to invite any randos who were following us around, but now there isn't even enough room for our own people.