Javelins: A New Skill Line!

Raltin

PRESENTING: THE JAVELIN PROJECT! A COLLABORATION!

NEWS: New Ability Updates, check out Palisade below! (11/25/20)

INTRODUCTION

For many years now, since their exclusion in TES after Morrowind, players have wanted a spear-type weapon brought back into the series. For some, the Templar's Aedric Spear skill line is enough, but for many: a magical, class-locked ability is no substitute for the real thing. That's why I've decided to put together this little showcase and idea storm, in the hopes that this thread could be brought to the attention of one of the developers, and these designs could hopefully be put forward into motion: to one day find their release within the yearly cycle of new skill lines and classes that happens with each new Expansion.

If it wasn't made abundantly clear already, this isn't your run of the mill 'bring spears back' rant, but in fact a thread entirely devoted to constructing the spear-based skill line from the ground up, with player input providing valuable insight into how exactly this re-introduction to the series should happen, and letting the devs work it out from there. Furthermore, many of these ideas may have been conceived and hammered out by me, but they are nothing without feedback from other players. Much of what I have constructed here has already gone through the filter of criticism from others, but more is always welcomed and appreciated. If you have an idea regarding the mechanics of these new weapons, share it, and it may just end up included in the final product listed in this post!

Without further ado, lets get started!

WHY A NEW SKILL LINE?

Some of you might be asking why these weapons will require a new skill line, and why they can't just be integrated into the existing weapon lines. Well, there's a simple answer to this. Each of the weapon skill lines and the weapons contained within them have specific animations tied to them: from how they're positioned when they're unsheathed, to the player's stance, the light and heavy attacks of these weapons, how they look when performing the animations for the skill line abilities, and everything in between. When you swing a weapon within the Dual Wield or Two Handed lines, whether it's a greatsword, an axe, or a dagger; each animation plays out exactly the same.

To avoid potential animation errors and bugs, and to make it simpler on the developers; our new pointed weapons will need to have their own line for their new weapon type, with their own specific animations, just like how bows and restoration staves fit comfortably within their own category. You can see how it might be awkward to lump a new weapon type into the bow category, and try to animate how Volley works with a single pointed weapon in your hand, let alone needing to change the arrows that rain down from the ability into javelins, or getting a stabbing weapon to not look ridiculous performing all the crush and slash animations for the abilities in the two-handed line.

HOW IT SHOULD WORK

By now, many might be wondering why this is titled "The Javelin Project", and not 'spears' or 'pikes' or 'halberds', and there's a reason for this. During my various conversations with players to enlist their feedback, there have many arguments over whether these weapons should be melee-oriented, or ranged. Then the idea struck: why not combine the best of both? As a new skill line with its own abilities and animations, it really opens the door to potential, instead of locking it all behind the niche of fitting it into other weapon categories. If players want both ranged and melee spears, why not give them both in one package? And so we have javelins: weapons that can be used in close quarters or at range! I'm not just talking about adding ranged abilities in the skill tree, like Hidden Dagger for Dual Wield and Critical Charge for Two-Handed, I'm suggesting taking it a step further: the light and heavy attacks.

Light/Heavy Attacks

As you can see, we've had spears and javelins in the game for some time now; spears since Vanilla, and javelins since Orsinium. We can take elements from both to create the player-wielded version. The spears used by the npcs are melee weapons, already possessing their own idle wield animation, and light and heavy attack animations. Javelins on the other hand sit in a quiver on the npc's back while Dual or One Handed weaponry is used, that is, until you move away from the npc. When you are at range, the npc will draw a javelin from the quiver on their back, and perform a heavy attack animation where they lob the javelin at you. The idea is to blend these two concepts together into the light and heavy attacks of the player-wielded javelin.

Unsheathing your weapon will see you draw a javelin out from the quiver, and hold it in the npc spear animation. Light attacks are melee-based, just like the spears, and thus blend seamlessly into the favored combat tactic of Weaving, without the lag potential bows often suffer from with their light attacks in the Weaving process. The heavy attack is when the ranged component comes into play; switching from the melee orientation of the spear's light attacks and instead sharing the same heavy attack animation that npc javelin wielders use when they are at range from you. Following the heavy attack animation, just as the player draws a new arrow from their quiver when using a bow, so too will the player bring out a new javelin from the quiver on their back. The block animation? Easy: copy the similar block animation one would use for a long, slender weapon like from the bows or the staves.

Crafting

Finally, we come to the decision about where javelins should fit within the current crafting system. Given that these are weapons primarily made from wood with metal tips, like big arrows, javelins should probably be included in the woodworking crafting category, along with staves and bows. Naturally, this would mean they require the same woodworking tempers as staves and bows do.

Abilities and Passives

With the light and heavy attacks hammered out, we come to the decisions regarding abilities and passives. As we all know, there are five active abilities, passives, and one ultimate limited to each skill line, and seeing as this is a weapon type that will be blending both ranged and melee functions, I think it's fitting that we divide the five abilities equally among those categories: two melee abilities, two ranged abilities, and two self-targeted power-up abilities. This is a section in which I would enjoy some feedback and help from other players, as I'd like to hear from you all about what the base abilities, and their morphs, should all line up to be.

Keep in mind, the abilities provided by this skill line should have a unique feel to them that helps to separate them from other similar weapon and class skills, so as to not feel like a copy of those abilities, though similar enough that they can blend as a skill line that can be paired with either bow or melee builds as the primary or backup bar for either. We want this to be a skill line that provides you a tactical choice; equal reasons for replacing either your bow bar, or your melee bar with it, so that it does not out-compete one or the other as the ultimate weapon choice. In other words: as perfectly balanced as possible.

NOTE: abilities and their morphs may be prone to change depending on player feed-back.

Ultimate:

• Self-Targeted Ability: reduced stamina cost for all abilities for the duration.
• Morph 1: reduced stamina cost for all abilities, and weapon damage grows progressively stronger for the duration.
• Morph 2: reduced stamina cost for all abilities, and weapon critical grows progressively stronger for the duration.

Active Abilities:

1. Melee Ability, single-target channel similar to Flurry or Puncturing Strikes: ?
   
2. Ranged Ability, a single-target similar to Snipe or Piercing Javelin:
   
3. Self-Targeted Ability, a power-up, perhaps similar to hidden dagger or momentum; providing Major Brutality, or another buff:
   
4. Melee Ability, close-quarters equivalent to Volley, Caltrops, and Spear Shards, functions similarly to Trap Beast, but is an AoE with a duration:
   "Palisade: Gather the javelins in your quiver and stab them downwards, creating a barrier of pikes at your location that deals X physical damage to enemies in the area every 1 second for X seconds"
   Morph 1: "Defensive Palisade: Increases the duration by X seconds per level and applies Minor Resolve to you and your allies in the area."
   Morph 2: "Sharpened Palisade: Enemies who leave the target area or are within it when the duration expires bleed for X damage over X seconds."
   
5. Ranged Ability: ?

Passives

1. Passive 1: ?
2. Passive 2: ?
3. Passive 3: ?
4. Passive 4: ?
5. Passive 5: ?

Motifs and Collection System Concerns

Following the introduction of javelins into the game, there's going to need to be a lot of backtracking required to pump the newly designed weapons into the current motif, outfit, and collection systems. Particularly going back and designing the new quivers and javelins for each of the previous motifs. How exactly ZOS will do this is anyone's guess; whether they will do it incrementally or all in one go. Although I have a few QoL suggestions to help the integration go more smoothly for the players, and to avoid any negative feelings from cropping up from the player-base towards the devs, or at least, as little negativity as possible.

Of course, you will have players that have spent crowns to buy full motifs of various styles. Obviously, they won't be very happy to find that they are missing a new page from a style they already paid full price for. So, to that end, I suggest this course of action: players who have completed a motif set, whether it was earned in-game or bought with crowns, will have their motif collection automatically updated with the new javelin page. Whether they will do this as well for the new set collection system, or force you to fill in the new blank spot, is up for debate.

Finally, there is the matter of expansion-linked skill lines. When it comes to expansions, many of the classes and skill lines that accompany them, are bound to that expansion: requiring you to pay for it or become a subscriber to unlock it. The only half-exception to this rule of thumb is the jewelry system in Summerset; allowing you to equip and use jewelry, but leaving you unable to make or improve jewelry without the expansion. Locking this new skill line behind an expansion seems inevitable, but I do have one QoL suggestion for players who have not bought the expansion and unlocked the skill line. While you may not be allowed to equip, use, and improve javelins without the expansion, players without should still be able to collect and use the javelin motif pages, as well as deconstruct javelins they find so that the weapons can be added to their collections tab.

Thank you all for your consideration, feedback, and support!

Raltin

Will need help hammering out the ultimate, active abilities, and the passives! Add your thoughts and weigh in!

OtarTheMad

Nice idea but hard to bring in Javelins since most of the skills they could put into it would just be from the Templar's Aedric spear line.

I've always liked Javelin's/spears though so, I like the idea.

Raltin

@OtarTheMad wrote: »

Nice idea but hard to bring in Javelins since most of the skills they could put into it would just be from the Templar's Aedric spear line.

I've always liked Javelin's/spears though so, I like the idea.

Part of the reason I'm emphasizing that the new abilities and passives that come along with the javelin line need to have a unique feel to them, to help separate them from the Aedric Spear. Another thing to note is that all but two of the aedric spear abilities are restricted to magicka rather than stamina, and require to be leveled and morphed before they're made available to stamina users.

And thanks! Also, if you have any ideas, I'd welcome them!

Firstmep

I'll be honest, this seems like a lot of effort for something that will likely never happen.
The devs are generally not very receptive to community ideas.
Well written post still, but I think it's important to know that it's just a fan idea.

Raltin

@Firstmep wrote: »

I'll be honest, this seems like a lot of effort for something that will likely never happen.
The devs are generally not very receptive to community ideas.
Well written post still, but I think it's important to know that it's just a fan idea.

True, but half of all of this is already in the game, half-baked... all they need to do is pop it in the oven to finish cooking it, then they can patent it, package, and sell it. BOOM: easy money, and a motivator for players to buy their new expansion or subscribe.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

One problem, what about the all the crafting styles which would then require one of these, many of them are no longer obtainable.

Firstmep

Raltin wrote: »

@Firstmep wrote: »

I'll be honest, this seems like a lot of effort for something that will likely never happen.
The devs are generally not very receptive to community ideas.
Well written post still, but I think it's important to know that it's just a fan idea.

True, but half of all of this is already in the game, half-baked... all they need to do is pop it in the oven to finish cooking it, then they can patent it, package, and sell it. BOOM: easy money, and a motivator for players to buy their new expansion or subscribe.

Well new skill lines/classes come with chapters and knowing the devs they want something that would appeal to a larger audience to boost sales.
We may well be seeing some new weapons in a chapter down the line, who knows.
But again Zos is not really known to pick up community ideas like that, however easy it may seem.
They are the ones developing the game for money, wouldn't exactly look good on them if they took an entire skill line from a forums post and claim it as their own.
Easy money or not.

Faiza

I think this is really creative OP. 😊

Raltin

Firstmep wrote: »

Raltin wrote: »

@Firstmep wrote: »

I'll be honest, this seems like a lot of effort for something that will likely never happen.
The devs are generally not very receptive to community ideas.
Well written post still, but I think it's important to know that it's just a fan idea.

True, but half of all of this is already in the game, half-baked... all they need to do is pop it in the oven to finish cooking it, then they can patent it, package, and sell it. BOOM: easy money, and a motivator for players to buy their new expansion or subscribe.

Well new skill lines/classes come with chapters and knowing the devs they want something that would appeal to a larger audience to boost sales.
We may well be seeing some new weapons in a chapter down the line, who knows.
But again Zos is not really known to pick up community ideas like that, however easy it may seem.
They are the ones developing the game for money, wouldn't exactly look good on them if they took an entire skill line from a forums post and claim it as their own.
Easy money or not.

Heck, I'd love if they take it, I wouldn't gripe one bit, and it could make for some good publicity 'we listen to our players' and so on. Honestly, this keeps making me wish I'd finally apply for a job from ZOS... There's several positions I think I'd be qualified for.

Raltin

@TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

One problem, what about the all the crafting styles which would then require one of these, many of them are no longer obtainable.

I assume you're mostly talking about limited event motif styles, like Legion Zero and ones that don't count as actual motif chapters, just collectible pages. Many of those sets are incomplete anyway, especially the Maelstrom set, which doesn't have any armor equivalents. I think this is something that they could go back to and fill in the gaps later, with potential re-release periods that allow you to collect those styles again, for a limited time.

Raltin

@Faiza wrote: »

I think this is really creative OP. 😊

Monte_Cristo

I'd like to see one of the melee skills be a sweeping motion, with a morph that knocks over the targets. Maybe a360 sweep, hitting all targets in melee range?

Raltin

@Monte_Cristo wrote: »

I'd like to see one of the melee skills be a sweeping motion, with a morph that knocks over the targets. Maybe a360 sweep, hitting all targets in melee range?

Sort of a different take on Radial Sweep or Whirlwind eh?

Yamenstein

Love the effort that you've put into this. A+ for that.
If they had to choose adding no skill lines or adding this one then yeah for sure.
I personally hope they add more magical oriented skill lines though.

NoMoreChillies

This NPC skill would make a cool ultimate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oTYfzGYKNs

SydneyGrey

It would be fun to have a new weapon type. I don't even care what it would be. Just anything new is fine with me.

Raltin

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

This NPC skill would make a cool ultimate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oTYfzGYKNs

Like Spear Shards from Aedric Spear, except it carries you. That's something to consider, though this ability would make you truly invulnerable for the duration in which you were airborn, which is something I'm not sure ZOS would allow. Even if it was only for a couple seconds.

Iccotak

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Nice idea but hard to bring in Javelins since most of the skills they could put into it would just be from the Templar's Aedric spear line.

I've always liked Javelin's/spears though so, I like the idea.

I mean we have Bone Colossus and Blood scion morph that both have the same animations so I do not see an issue with physical spears and conjured spears existing at the same time

Hotdog_23

Interesting idea.

If ZOS would ever do something like this, I would hope they would make one stamina and one magic morph for each skill. Stam already has several weapons to use already but only one magic weapon. Sure, different staffs with different flavors but they all share the s skill line.

Be safe and have fun

Raltin

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Interesting idea.

If ZOS would ever do something like this, I would hope they would make one stamina and one magic morph for each skill. Stam already has several weapons to use already but only one magic weapon. Sure, different staffs with different flavors but they all share the s skill line.

Be safe and have fun

I agree, it is also time for a new magicka-based weapon other than a staff. Hard to say what weapon that would be though... not so sure how well books or wands would work in warfare... kind of hard to justify strategic blocking with a 10-inch twig. I don't envy the person who has to brain storm on THAT new weapon type, that's for sure.

Winnower

10/10/2014: Tales of the Dead




UNTITLED

By Winnower

“You are ridiculous."

“No, this will work, I’m telling you!”

Lucian sneered at his little brother. Lucian was a warrior, an elite medium infantry for the 23rd Imperial Legion. His brother Aloysius had only managed to apprentice himself to a woodworker, and now stood there with that absurd pole in his hands, insisting that it would be an effective weapon.

“A spike on the end of a pole, and you think you can throw it? It can’t possibly fly straight, never mind hurt anything. If this could be a real weapon it would have been invented already. No one in all of Tamriel uses anything like it.”

“Lucian, I swear, this is the best invention in years. It’s going to be the coming thing in warfare, not like that “stirrup” thing that guy last year was hawking. I call it a “spear”, like those Aedric spells the Templars cast.”

“I bet you couldn’t even knock this bottle of wine off my head. Here look, I’ll take off my helmet and balance the bottle … so. Now go ahead.”

“No Lucian, it’s too dangerous, you could get hurt.”

“You always were a weakling and a coward. Now I see that you’re stupid as well. Father will be angry at your time wasting…”

At the limit of his patience, Aloysius hefted his “spear” and with all his strength threw his new invention toward the wine bottle. “GOOORCH”, went the spike through Lucian’s skull.

As Aloysius ran away in horror, he had time to reflect that Lucian was right, he had missed the bottle. And father was going to be angry indeed. If he said anything to anyone, that is.

Ysbriel

Nice post OP, needless to say Templar has all the spear chucking. Which in fact it has always been pretty damm cool to actually no matter what weapon you are wielding, being either a Warrior or a Mage , you can call upon the power of the Aedra and chuck, jab, swipe and charge your spear at your foes.

Vayln_Ninetails

I like your idea.

However, I would hope if they add spears at the same time they add a magicka line.

Magicka has kinda been forced to use the same 2 staves for 6 years. Where Stam has so much variety in weapons.

Raltin

@Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

I like your idea.

However, I would hope if they add spears at the same time they add a magicka line.

Magicka has kinda been forced to use the same 2 staves for 6 years. Where Stam has so much variety in weapons.

No argument there, as much as I want javelins, magicka is in dire need of some weapon variety.

Vevvev

Raltin wrote: »

@Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

I like your idea.

However, I would hope if they add spears at the same time they add a magicka line.

Magicka has kinda been forced to use the same 2 staves for 6 years. Where Stam has so much variety in weapons.

No argument there, as much as I want javelins, magicka is in dire need of some weapon variety.

Indeed, maybe add javalins and the magicka weapon (whether it be an alteration/illusion staff or rune thing) at the same time?

GrimTheReaper45

Would take it over a new class

Raltin

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

Would take it over a new class

Agreed.

Sylvermynx

@Winnower - loved the story!

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

Would take it over a new class

Me too!

Icy_Waffles

I really don’t see the appeal. I can appreciate all the thought you put into this- but I really think there needs to be another Magic skill line first.

Vayln_Ninetails

Vevvev wrote: »

Raltin wrote: »

@Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

I like your idea.

However, I would hope if they add spears at the same time they add a magicka line.

Magicka has kinda been forced to use the same 2 staves for 6 years. Where Stam has so much variety in weapons.

No argument there, as much as I want javelins, magicka is in dire need of some weapon variety.

Indeed, maybe add javalins and the magicka weapon (whether it be an alteration/illusion staff or rune thing) at the same time?

I myself would prefer they add in Alteration, conjuration, and illusion staves to represent all 5 schools of magic.

Then if they add in Javelins for Stam each would be at 5 skill lines each. It'd be nice and fair