Cyrodiil AoE changes

CleymenZero

So.... The time has finally come.

Half of you will want to make posts about quitting the game or those that stream will label their stuff: "Last ESO stream" for the few days left before the tests come up.

I for one can get behind SOME of the changes namely the last 2 proposed:
"October 5-12: Group size is limited to 12 in Cyrodiil, and any ally-targeted abilities are only applied to group members
October 12-19: Group size is limited to 12 in Cyrodiil, and if a group contains 6 or more players, everyone’s AoE abilities will go on individual cooldowns and have escalating cost similar to the tests above"

The other ones though I find that there wasn't THAT much thought given to them. The fact that you wouldn't be able to use puncturing sweep for 3 seconds after casting Ritual of Retribution r even cast Puncturing Sweeps after casting Puncturing Sweeps is mind-boggling. You can't even turn it into a ST ability for the tests? That's wild!

Anyways, we'll see.

Sandman929

The AoE cooldown tests are just poorly thought out. As with too many ZOS changes, they're done in a bubble with no regard for how the game currently exists. How does a templar do anything at all with jabs being on cooldown?
The group size/group healing test is a great addition. Should be the first test, and go even further by limiting all healing/buffing to group members only.

Moonsorrow

October 5-12: Group size is limited to 12 in Cyrodiil, and any ally-targeted abilities are only applied to group members
October 12-19: Group size is limited to 12 in Cyrodiil, and if a group contains 6 or more players, everyone’s AoE abilities will go on individual cooldowns and have escalating cost similar to the tests above

I`m loving these tests, especially the October 12-19 one. ZOS has done well this time, i will enjoy that and can already imagine the fun Cyrodiil would be with that as a regular reality and not just a test.

Please let it come as a reality and not just a dream. ZOS, my body is ready.

Will buy extra Crown Crates if it happens too.

usmcjdking

Sandman929 wrote: »

The AoE cooldown tests are just poorly thought out. As with too many ZOS changes, they're done in a bubble with no regard for how the game currently exists. How does a templar do anything at all with jabs being on cooldown?
The group size/group healing test is a great addition. Should be the first test, and go even further by limiting all healing/buffing to group members only.

No they aren't poorly thought out, they are exhaustive. Exhaustive testing sucks.

LeifErickson

The last two tests should be implemented into Cyrodiil even if they don't work.

CleymenZero

usmcjdking wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The AoE cooldown tests are just poorly thought out. As with too many ZOS changes, they're done in a bubble with no regard for how the game currently exists. How does a templar do anything at all with jabs being on cooldown?
The group size/group healing test is a great addition. Should be the first test, and go even further by limiting all healing/buffing to group members only.

No they aren't poorly thought out, they are exhaustive. Exhaustive testing sucks.

Yeah.. Not poorly thought out. Stamplar and Magplar will function perfectly in Cyrodiil... Sure...

Sanctum74

usmcjdking wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The AoE cooldown tests are just poorly thought out. As with too many ZOS changes, they're done in a bubble with no regard for how the game currently exists. How does a templar do anything at all with jabs being on cooldown?
The group size/group healing test is a great addition. Should be the first test, and go even further by limiting all healing/buffing to group members only.

No they aren't poorly thought out, they are exhaustive. Exhaustive testing sucks.

You’re right they weren’t poorly thought out, there was absolutely no thought put in at all. When you have classes like warden, templar, and dk with the majority of their skills being aoe how are they supposed to test?

Their heals, buffs, and damage skills have aoe checks so should they just use 1 skill every 3 seconds? How can they get accurate data if a player is unable to play their character?

CleymenZero

Sanctum74 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The AoE cooldown tests are just poorly thought out. As with too many ZOS changes, they're done in a bubble with no regard for how the game currently exists. How does a templar do anything at all with jabs being on cooldown?
The group size/group healing test is a great addition. Should be the first test, and go even further by limiting all healing/buffing to group members only.

No they aren't poorly thought out, they are exhaustive. Exhaustive testing sucks.

You’re right they weren’t poorly thought out, there was absolutely no thought put in at all. When you have classes like warden, templar, and dk with the majority of their skills being aoe how are they supposed to test?

Their heals, buffs, and damage skills have aoe checks so should they just use 1 skill every 3 seconds? How can they get accurate data if a player is unable to play their character?

Didn't bother mentioning DKs and Wardens because I'm still certain I can probably work my way around the issue by changing the order I use the skills but the fact that Templars were not given a pass is really the mind-boggling abberation.

pauld1_ESO

Anything that stops these stupid ball groups would be fine with me. If it is all "coordination and skill" like they say then they should be just fine.

Sanctum74

Don’t get me wrong I would love to see the game become more single target focused which would increase the skill level for players, but to do a test knowing that half the classes wouldn’t be able to use their abilities just seems senseless.

Anony_Mouse

Anyone else think its a shame they do these tests in Cyro while there is an IC event going on? So many layers would be n IC anyway for the event... taking away from the usual population in Cyro

Tranquilizer

LeifErickson wrote: »

The last two tests should be implemented into Cyrodiil even if they don't work.

Large scale pvp with small scale groups ? Brilliant idea

Tranquilizer

Anony_Mouse wrote: »

Anyone else think its a shame they do these tests in Cyro while there is an IC event going on? So many layers would be n IC anyway for the event... taking away from the usual population in Cyro

Glad they did the first week during ic event. I'd rather be in ic with an nb than as a gimped templar in Cyrodiil. 3 sec global cd on aoe is just ridiculous in a game where a lot of classes and builds are built around aoe skills.

renne

You can tell they don't pay a single bit of attention to what the playerbase wants/feedback on the PTS and are too lazy to update the testing text, because this is the same text they used for the last tests targeting templar skills and "For example, if you cast Ritual of Retribution" - lmao who is going to even run this morph after update 27 now that it's just an expensive, mediocre AOE without the healing.

LeifErickson

Tranquilizer wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

The last two tests should be implemented into Cyrodiil even if they don't work.

Large scale pvp with small scale groups ? Brilliant idea

How in the world is a 12 man group small scale? You can just stack two 12 mans on top of each other anyways.

Nairinhe

That's just plain and simple live debugging because they can't replicate live Cyro conditions in test environment.
It's not about changes from combat design viewpoint, it looks more like when you comment couple of lines in you code just to see if issue is with them or with the rest. Not to test a fix, but to try and find where the root of the problem might be. I think.

So, please, be goodies and participate in the testing. If you want these tests to turn into fixes, that is.

SweepsAllClowns

Nairinhe wrote: »

So, please, be goodies and participate in the testing. If you want these tests to turn into fixes, that is.

So, please, be goodies and fix my Xbox EU account finally so I could participate in the testing on both Xbox EU and NA servers. If you want this player to turn into an actual playing and paying customer again, that is.

katorga

That first test....just, uh, no. Poor templars and sorcs. It essentially kills them. Sweeps, sorry can't heal for 3s. Shield, sorry can't streak for 3s. And so on.

Meanwhile my Stamcro is essentially uneffected. It is not even going to be fair.

The first test will probably supercharge proc builds.

Ironically, Deaden Pain seems to scan a radius, continously, for corpses just for being slotted. The speed at which a corpse appears and the skill lights up as available to cast makes me think that it scans more frequently than GCD. So in addition to being massively advantaged by the test conditions, I still get to hammer the server just by slotting a skill.

The last two tests..."ally targetting abilities only affect the group", if that makes rapid regen or Spirit Guardian a guaranteed self-only hot if I'm not grouped? That could be super interesting.

Ralamil

LeifErickson wrote: »

Tranquilizer wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

The last two tests should be implemented into Cyrodiil even if they don't work.

Large scale pvp with small scale groups ? Brilliant idea

How in the world is a 12 man group small scale? You can just stack two 12 mans on top of each other anyways.

"How in the world is this a bad test when I'm arbitrarily defining what is small or large scale, and you can obviate the test in its entirety anyway!"

Sounds like a pretty poorly thought out "test" to me...

Major_Lag

pauld1_ESO wrote: »

Anything that stops these stupid ball groups would be fine with me. If it is all "coordination and skill" like they say then they should be just fine.

Nothing will ever completely "stop" the ballgroups, as long as the game allows grouping in any form and there is any advantage - however slight it may be - to be gained from being in a group.

A group of X well coordinated players on voicechat, using well optimized builds for the overall group composition, already has an overwhelming advantage over an uncoordinated (no voicechat) group of X randoms.

In fact, even if ZOS entirely removed the ability to group up in Cyrodiil, there would still exist ballgroups teams of "solo players" coordinating their actions through voicechat.

If you take this thought experiment to its logical conclusion, even completely removing any capability to assist your allies under any circumstances (heals, buffs, etc.) - which would be patently absurd, considering that by design Cyrodiil is an AvAvA zone - would still not completely negate the benefits of coordination, as the coordinated "solo players" would effortlessly blow up the opposition one by one as they focus and time their bursts on targets indicated through voicechat.

TL;dr: there will always exist groups of better players who can only be matched by similar sized groups of equally skilled players, or by overwhelming numbers of relatively unskilled players.

Having said all that... what can (and should) be done, is systematically shaving off many of the "passive" advantages of merely being in a coordinated group, such as the ludicrous heal stacking and purge spamming which is the unquestioned norm at the (arguably) "highest level" of ESO PvP group play.

On the other hand, attempting to introduce "active" means of counterplay, such as "ballgroup killer" sets or abilities, is a fool's errand - as such "counters" will end up being (ab)used by the very ballgroups they were meant to destroy. One need only look as far as Proxy Det to see that this is so.

Firstmep

Honestly the last sounds like a winner to me, it only affects large groups, doesn't destroy entire classes, and could be made to work with minimal impact to pve.

LeifErickson

Ralamil wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Tranquilizer wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

The last two tests should be implemented into Cyrodiil even if they don't work.

Large scale pvp with small scale groups ? Brilliant idea

How in the world is a 12 man group small scale? You can just stack two 12 mans on top of each other anyways.

"How in the world is this a bad test when I'm arbitrarily defining what is small or large scale, and you can obviate the test in its entirety anyway!"

Sounds like a pretty poorly thought out "test" to me...

Nope because the increasing cost of aoe for groups only and only being able to heal groups is a great test. I'm not sure why it matters what is considered small scale but having 24 people at a keep battle whether they are grouped or not is definitely large scale pvp.

Regardless, the game defines large as more than four so anything more than four is large scale.

red_emu

As someone mentioned before, nothing will ever stop ball groups. Even without being in a group, coordinating is easy.

Pick up a base game costume available from a quest. Dye it some specific neon colour and boom. You don't need indicators for group members.

As for the tests, we still haven't heard from ZOS what's happening with specific abilities. Some classes are pretty much aoe based, despite the fact that those abilities are used for single target damage. Is there going to be changes to those skills? Are some skills going to be exempt from the test?

Best example is Templar, Warden, DK, Necromancer.... The only class that is primarily single target is the NB.

I would totally understand if it's about skills that aren't supposed to be spammed, like ground AoEs, delayed skills, skills that have a duration attached to them but so many skills used as single target spammable perform an Aoe check, that if you come across an NB and don't have 45k health and lots of block cost reduction, you're toast.

This will be a really weird shift in Cyrodiil. We'll be going from nuke tanks meta to 12k health, PvE glass cannon stam blades sweeping up entire armies.

I really hope after those tests, ZOS will understand that it's not about how the game engine functions in respect to AoEs but how certain abilities need to be reworked (looking at you - Purge every 0.2 seconds in every group)

relentless_turnip

I would actually like some aoe's to have a cooldown as a quality of life change. Like stuff you spam by accident and it kills your resources.

These include things like:
Engulfing flames
Inhale
Shalks
Turn evil.

If they took the logic of certain skills would be fine or even better with a cooldown attached. Skills like jabs could be single target and healing kept to groups of a smaller size(as proposed in the latest test announcement). Skills that could effectively be single target should be looked at.

I would also like a healing priority button in settings that allows my heals to always prioritise me and save me spamming them and causing unnecessary area checks.
Skills like:

Cauterise
Rapid regen

There are also aoe skills that should have a ramping cost attached like purge, as it shouldn't be able to be spammed and mitigate every bit of incoming damage.

There are skills imo that shouldn't be affected as that is what makes them fun, things like whirlwind as an example.

What I'm ultimately saying is all these tests could be effective and work with minimal impact to combat. If all skills are looked at individually and the appropriate provision is applied based on their use.

Mayrael

Wow... That 12-19 test look awesome! So there's still hope!

Qbiken

The October tests with group sizes looks amazing, especially the 2nd one. One of those solutions should be implemented regardless if you ask me.

Mayrael

Qbiken wrote: »

The October tests with group sizes looks amazing, especially the 2nd one. One of those solutions should be implemented regardless if you ask me.

Yup, I think that combination of these 2- Group size up to 12, 6 or above with cast time, ally-targeted AoE abilities work only on group members would be good start. But because it's easy to coordinate AoEs spam (thus it won't change how much aoe skills per second such group can cast) I think cool down should be global for such group members meaning casting one AoE ability puts cool down on all AoE abilities of that player.

LoreToo

Tests will provide 0 data for Devs cause 1/2 players won't play. The ideas behind this tests tells us that MMO part of eso finally 100% dead and it's time to move forward to other MMO projects.
Tnx to all solo players for that changes. Hope u will enjoy skyrim online.
We all know that the only way to fix cyro is to rewrite game code and upgrade servers.

Mayrael

LoreToo wrote: »

Tests will provide 0 data for Devs cause 1/2 players won't play. The ideas behind this tests tells us that MMO part of eso finally 100% dead and it's time to move forward to other MMO projects.
Tnx to all solo players for that changes. Hope u will enjoy skyrim online.
We all know that the only way to fix cyro is to rewrite game code and upgrade servers.

Ball groups =/= only group play available. Random group members won't be affected much by changes we talk about. Same goes to small scale groups. There is still a lot of group play in Cyro. Even bunch of solo players fighting side by side is a group of players. Sorry but Cyro will be fine without ball groups.

LoreToo

Mayrael wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

Tests will provide 0 data for Devs cause 1/2 players won't play. The ideas behind this tests tells us that MMO part of eso finally 100% dead and it's time to move forward to other MMO projects.
Tnx to all solo players for that changes. Hope u will enjoy skyrim online.
We all know that the only way to fix cyro is to rewrite game code and upgrade servers.

Ball groups =/= only group play available. Random group members won't be affected much by changes we talk about. Same goes to small scale groups. There is still a lot of group play in Cyro. Even bunch of solo players fighting side by side is a group of players. Sorry but Cyro will be fine without ball groups.

Sry to say but ballgrouping is the only end-game group PvP activity we had.
Solo players fighting side by side is faction stucking and not near a group play.
Smallscalers are fine if they use their brian and synergies their builds. If you call 3-5 ppl with 2h spamming dizzy around 1 rock smallscale - you are wrong

Mayrael

LoreToo wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

Tests will provide 0 data for Devs cause 1/2 players won't play. The ideas behind this tests tells us that MMO part of eso finally 100% dead and it's time to move forward to other MMO projects.
Tnx to all solo players for that changes. Hope u will enjoy skyrim online.
We all know that the only way to fix cyro is to rewrite game code and upgrade servers.

Ball groups =/= only group play available. Random group members won't be affected much by changes we talk about. Same goes to small scale groups. There is still a lot of group play in Cyro. Even bunch of solo players fighting side by side is a group of players. Sorry but Cyro will be fine without ball groups.

Sry to say but ballgrouping is the only end-game group PvP activity we had.
Solo players fighting side by side is faction stucking and not near a group play.
Smallscalers are fine if they use their brian and synergies their builds. If you call 3-5 ppl with 2h spamming dizzy around 1 rock smallscale - you are wrong

Oh my oh my, really? Then why ball groups don't fight each other but only farm pugs or even smallscalers/solo players? It's not about challenge or "end game" PvP. Sorry, but you won't be missed, actually without ball groups lagging servers, Cyrodiil may become more popular and once again be fun!

Who cares if selfish bunch of players (who despite knowing how it affects other players performance still play in most disruptive way) will leave? You always could play as a team but without stacking on each other backs. You could play like a organised large scale group, but you choose not to.

Then you wonder why nobody likes ball groups and wants to get rid of them? It's not because they are annoying and boring to play against, it's because you degradate performance for all other players.

I know, I know servers/game code performance is ZOS fault. True. Taking advantage of that fact though is all on ball groups.