Update on Cyrodiil Performance & Upcoming AOE Tests

Sarousse

@ZOS_RichLambert groups have been able to spam AoE without any pause since the very first days of ESO. I fought these groups, I've been in this groups, I have videos of this. So everything you wrote after this statement feels... fake.

Anyway, the situation can't stay like this, a solution must be found, so let's salute this initiative and test your solutions.

Elsonso

MipMip wrote: »

Dottzgaming wrote: »

This unfortunately will probably get a "positive" performance result. Combat is going to slow down to a grinding hault, so performance will improve since people will be playing the game at a significantly slower speed.

ESO's hallmark feature is it's combat speed and fluidity, especially for PvP. Cooldowns shouldn't be introduced into a system that was fundamentally designed to not have them. Period.

Thanks @Dottzgaming for this excellent comment, and @NirnStorm and many others who point out how such changes will make the game slower and less interesting.

I also agree with those who say that these issues should be addressed not by changing fundamental game mechanics but by increasing server performance (many of us spend a lot of money on subs and in the crown store...)

If these changes go through I think I will recommend the game to my grandparents!

I think that the whole point is that there is no where left to increase server performance.

Where I think that @Dottzgaming is missing the point is that he fails to mention that something has to give. If the cooldowns are unacceptable, then remove the spammable AoE so players are not able to even do it, and if that is not acceptable, do whatever they did for MYM that is obviously something so unspeakable that they won't even suggest it.

It certainly appears that ESO has arrived at a zero-sum situation. More was added than the game can handle. Something needs to be removed, since it is apparently not possible to have a bigger box to put it all in.

MurderMostFoul

Elsonso wrote: »

MipMip wrote: »

Dottzgaming wrote: »

This unfortunately will probably get a "positive" performance result. Combat is going to slow down to a grinding hault, so performance will improve since people will be playing the game at a significantly slower speed.

ESO's hallmark feature is it's combat speed and fluidity, especially for PvP. Cooldowns shouldn't be introduced into a system that was fundamentally designed to not have them. Period.

Thanks @Dottzgaming for this excellent comment, and @NirnStorm and many others who point out how such changes will make the game slower and less interesting.

I also agree with those who say that these issues should be addressed not by changing fundamental game mechanics but by increasing server performance (many of us spend a lot of money on subs and in the crown store...)

If these changes go through I think I will recommend the game to my grandparents!

I think that the whole point is that there is no where left to increase server performance.

Where I think that @Dottzgaming is missing the point is that he fails to mention that something has to give. If the cooldowns are unacceptable, then remove the spammable AoE so players are not able to even do it, and if that is not acceptable, do whatever they did for MYM that is obviously something so unspeakable that they won't even suggest it.

It certainly appears that ESO has arrived at a zero-sum situation. More was added than the game can handle. Something needs to be removed, since it is apparently not possible to have a bigger box to put it all in.

Is a hardware solution on ZOS's end impossible?

BloodMagicLord

Correct problem diagnosis, but bad solutions.
My idea: Total overhaul of healing. Not just % nerf on this and that, but make healing more directional and strategic, instead of having healing skills with a wide range that has to find and heal the correct players out of potentially dozens in the vicinity.
Obviously I don't have access to the data that ZOS do, but my instict would be that changing healing would be much less impactful on combat and have an equal if not greater benefit to server performance in pvp vs literally destroying the combat identity of ESO that has been one of the game's main strength's since launch.

Dojohoda

I will participate in the test.

My magblade has aoe only on the backbar, so I won't need to make changes.

My magplar .. not sure about that character because it is mostly aoe.

I also play on magsorc and stamDK.

I hope I can find some time to test my characters on the PTS to see what is affected.

JusticeSouldier

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

• Test 1 – Shared global AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds a global 3 second shared cooldown to any AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast another for 3 seconds. For example, as a Templar, if I cast Ritual of Retribution, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep for 3 seconds.
• Test 2 – Individual AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast that same AOE ability for 3 seconds. For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.
• Test 3 – No cooldown, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds a global ramping AOE cost for each AOE cast. Similar to how streak or roll dodge works, where when you cast an AOE you receive a debuff for 5 seconds, each stack of the debuff increases the cost of any AOE cast.
• Test 4 – Individual AOE cooldown – 3 second timer, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each ability as in test 2, but also combines that with a global ramping cost from test 3.

1. no, No, nO, NO. HUGE MISTAKE. any sense in testing. waste of time. gameplay will be garbage in such case.
2. it should depend on what aoe type we have. it's HUGE mistake to try grab every aoe as equal "finger"
3. it can work. But u need to recognize aoe types. Separate, precise changes... Communism methods always make life worse!
4. No, no, nO, NO. guys, test 3 only in some form please...

@ZOS_RichLambert only test 3 is useful here if make it smarter than announced. other 3 are wrong directions to convert gameplay into feel-laggy-like one.

StShoot

Elsonso wrote: »

MipMip wrote: »

Dottzgaming wrote: »

This unfortunately will probably get a "positive" performance result. Combat is going to slow down to a grinding hault, so performance will improve since people will be playing the game at a significantly slower speed.

ESO's hallmark feature is it's combat speed and fluidity, especially for PvP. Cooldowns shouldn't be introduced into a system that was fundamentally designed to not have them. Period.

Thanks @Dottzgaming for this excellent comment, and @NirnStorm and many others who point out how such changes will make the game slower and less interesting.

I also agree with those who say that these issues should be addressed not by changing fundamental game mechanics but by increasing server performance (many of us spend a lot of money on subs and in the crown store...)

If these changes go through I think I will recommend the game to my grandparents!

I think that the whole point is that there is no where left to increase server performance.

Where I think that @Dottzgaming is missing the point is that he fails to mention that something has to give. If the cooldowns are unacceptable, then remove the spammable AoE so players are not able to even do it, and if that is not acceptable, do whatever they did for MYM that is obviously something so unspeakable that they won't even suggest it.

It certainly appears that ESO has arrived at a zero-sum situation. More was added than the game can handle. Something needs to be removed, since it is apparently not possible to have a bigger box to put it all in.

there is always a way to increase server performance, they could pay for an own mega server for pvp, raids and so on. But that would cost them alot. So the question is not if there IS a way to increase server performance. The question is if zos wants to pay more money for increasing server performance.

JimmyJuJu

"Frock of the Brisk"

(2) something useless
(3) something else that's useless
(4) yet another useless thing
(5) Reduce the arbitrary global cooldown by 2 seconds

laksikus

Ha. Stupid change. Will destroy alot solo builds aswell. Every templar, every support char, bombblades, sorc streak,

At the same time. I already tested a few proc sets. Some are pretty viable for bombblades and ballgroups. So not much will change for them

HeroOfNone

As a follow up to my "calm down" post, lets look how we got here from a player standpoint:

1. You lag so much you can't use single target melee ranged abilities, making players favor AOE spamables that don't require a target
2. Players use AOE heals because its easy and trying to see who to heal in a group is a nightmare in PVP
3. Certain abilities are AOE only by their design and have no alternatives. Skills like Vigor for example have no single target alternative that works well for all classes of all weapon types.
4. Because players lag, people stay in large groups where they get a safety net of heals, purges, and buffs. These groups also use AOEs because they are quick to use as they are charging through
5. Because we have these large sustaining group, you have players slotting on more AOE abilities to deal with these large groups...

The increase to AOEs to me isn't just because of the increase to sustain, but a by product of the lag. If the test proves the theory that too many AOEs all at once is the main culprit, then it seems like a downhill spiral into the current situation.

Now a few possible unforeseen consequences to this current test (not to say these are good or bad):

1. DOTs may be more powerful again as purify and purge would now have a cooldown/cost increase
2. Single target abilities might take center stage again, where many were marginalized because they were equivalent damage to their AOE counterparts
3. Players will need to be self reliant again with their heals and keeping their buffs up
4. the beam heal in the psijic line might actually have a use now (oh god I don't want to do this quest line on all my toons, please no)
5. This will force players to weave their AOEs with either single target abilities or other AOEs, possibly build diversifying more
6. Certain proc sets will excel in this mode, given the shorter time for AOE heals
7. There will be a higher skill bar for players not used to single target abilities.

These could also impact the performance results, including the reduced number of PVPers that don't want to figure out how to adjust to this temporary test. I'm interested to see how this impacts things overall

SidraWillowsky

New Templar:

nk125x

I just shake my head every time ZO$ suggest fundamental changes, like the last one changing LA/HA around. I guess they were hopping we would all HA to slow things down. Instead everybody realized LA weaving would give you infinite resources so you could change all your glyphs to Weapon or spell damage - Now this change, just means you will rotate your aoe's in a ball group between damage/heal and purge, abuse the new proc meta and cause so much more lag!!!!

MincVinyl

1. It IS a good thing that they have decided to finally do actual testing on the live playerbase
2. I think they are looking at yet another blanket change that doesnt solve the issue, just tries to prevent it from happening
3. We know the cp system needs to be reworked to have no procs and just constant stat buffs and also needs to get rid of the rounding % numbers issue(would help newer players)
4. The real issue with AOE is not that they can be spammed. It is because aoe over times can be stacked and you have aoe abilities and aoe ots that have 4-5 additional effects tied to them. There was a point in the game when an aoe damage ability was just that.....it did aoe damage. Not an aoe, a dot, a status effect, snare, and a root, etc.......there is too much being done by ONE button press, not that same button 5 times in a row
5. If aoe abilities cant be spammed I see more players just swapping to aoe proc sets instead and building tanky. I mean this is happening this and next patch regardless, but it will be more profound in upcoming patches for sure as more people catch on.

Lyar09

I think test 3 is the only reasonable one. That being said, there needs to be a cost reduction of certain skills in order to not completely screw over players when it comes to sustaining.

Tammany

laksikus wrote: »

streak

Oh now you wont be able to streak away to the horizont within 5 seconds ?
Thats saad (not)

Tommy_The_Gun

Squeaky_Clean wrote: »

Most of the commenters seem to be focused on Templars, because they were named in the examples of the original post, but everybody should be aware how many skills are affected. For example:

• Cleave
• Arrow Spray
• Volley
• Wall of Elements
• Impulse
• Streak (yes, Streak!)
• (..)

If all this is affected by a cooldown, then good bye PVP combat ..

... And Lotus Fan... yep, this gap-closer has AOE effect... same as Stampede .

I am pretty sure there are way more skills like that - their primary function is different, but they have additional AOE effect - meaning that you will have to wait 3 seconds each time.

Werewolf for example has a well-known combo: Brutal Pounce (gap closer leap with AOE) -> Roar (AOE fear CC) -> Infectious Claws (AOE Cone)...

You won't be able to do that after those changes. Combo is quite slow and can not be spammed (unlike some skills in Cyro) so it feels kinda unfair...

Gariele

You could also take the Hammer out and that would help also.

Aegonnn

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

At launch, Cyrodiil’s processes were able to keep up with the number of AOEs cast, because most players couldn’t cast that many of them: they ran out of Magicka or Stamina, so they had to use AOEs judiciously. Over time, as player knowledge grew and regen builds grew in power, more players could cast more and more AOEs before running out of resources.

Did you forget the game back then or should I post some old videos(1.3-1.6ish)? I can literally post you a video of me (DK) and my friend (Templar) 2vZerg while we cast nothing but AoE (talons, old impulse, bats WHILE in standards, old frag shields, and old cinder storm all being used) and we never run out of resources, it's lag free, and it was so much fun... and yes the enemies were casting AoEs back...

/facepalm

red_emu

Now imagine these changes are implemented but the lag returns after a couple of weeks.

Now your 3 second cool down on jabs lasts 9 seconds. A ball group appears and you can not use the skill for a few minutes because the server is still calculating your cool down.

Sugaroverdose

runningtings wrote: »

Excellent news, only ones complaining are PVE players who seem to have missed that this is for PVP and ball group sad cases.

Rofl, i don't want to make you feel bad, but this "test" will harm solo and small scale players hell a lot harder than even semi-organised zergs

McGordon

Tammany wrote: »

laksikus wrote: »

streak

Oh now you wont be able to streak away to the horizont within 5 seconds ?
Thats saad (not)

U all Streak haters, make a game play video, where u as magsorc can do competitive fight without a streak/ball lightning on your bar and I will agree that it needs nerf. Until then learn your class and everything will be fine, sorc will not hurt your feelings.

Iskaldt

I find it very interesting that during midyear mayhem the servers were performing better than ever, even with all the extra players. i mean, there was still lag and desyncs at points but all in all it was a better experiance than usual. Even on the max capacity servers.

I swear the day the event ended i could feel the server performance going to ***... Almost like they tuned down the hamsters instantly as it ended.

They seriously need to add another NO CP Cyrodiil campaign. As the servers are at their very limit every day and i cant/wont play becouse of this.
If i enter the NOCP campaign during primetime all that will do is induce rage and make me quit becouse of the 3-5 second delay on every skill i do, if they even go off at all.

Personally i wouldnt be affected that much if they added a 3 second individual CD on aoe's but so many classes will die if this ever happened. Destroying the game and its player base more than it allready is.

wolfie1.0.

runningtings wrote: »

Excellent news, only ones complaining are PVE players who seem to have missed that this is for PVP and ball group sad cases.

EVERY change to PVP that isnt part of Battle Spirit affects PVE as well. They are running these tests in Cryo Live yes.. But if it results in the same over all changes to combat as we expect then it WILL impact PVE as well. We have a reason to be concerned as in the past there have been MANY changes to combat that have been the direct result of PVP issues.

So yes we people that PVE more than we PVP have a reason to be concerned about this.

AlyennahsCrafting

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

Correct problem diagnosis, but bad solutions.
My idea: Total overhaul of healing. Not just % nerf on this and that, but make healing more directional and strategic, instead of having healing skills with a wide range that has to find and heal the correct players out of potentially dozens in the vicinity.
Obviously I don't have access to the data that ZOS do, but my instict would be that changing healing would be much less impactful on combat and have an equal if not greater benefit to server performance in pvp vs literally destroying the combat identity of ESO that has been one of the game's main strength's since launch.

That does sound complicated, especially with people moving fast and moving in and out of AoE.

Whatever they do, I just hope it works. There have been issues since Beta, it was one of the reason I stopped playing as I'd had a huge interest in that element at the start, but was disappointed by how it worked in practice. But I got to say I too have my doubts. Issues were here since day one and it all just has to do with massive groups of people spamming attacks like crazy. I hope they find a root cause they can tweak, in a way that doesn't take the fun away.

technohic

Am I reading between the lines too much to assume this is being done via Battle Spirit as to not impact PVE and that's why its such a blanket AOE nerf for each scenario?

MurderMostFoul

technohic wrote: »

Am I reading between the lines too much to assume this is being done via Battle Spirit as to not impact PVE and that's why its such a blanket AOE nerf for each scenario?

That could never work as a final solution. That doesn't mean ZOS wouldn't consider it though.

Sm0ke

I think ZoS openly made the mistake of saying that players and their abilities are causing lags in Cyrodiil, which I think offends a lot of their players.
Once again, to justify their helplessness in correcting Cyrodiil and decided to simply find the ones to blame for this situation.
It just s***s.
When we played MYM, we didn't have any problems with the lag, since you guys probably added or updated your server.
Why you can't open a new server personally for Cyrodiil zone?
Are your players really paying you little for this implementation?
I hope you will someday give up your policy of guessing problem solving.

Vevvev

I just realized this test would make vampire's mesmerize skill even more worthless. Not only will it have an incredibly poor chance of getting someone but now you can't spam it to make sure it does.

caeliusstarbreaker

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

As part of our ongoing performance optimizations, we have been spending a lot of time analyzing and addressing problems in Cyrodiil. I'm going to give a summary of what has happened over the years, what we have been doing to alleviate the problems, and our future plans.

When talking about ESO server performance, it is important to understand that all abilities in the game (with some exceptions) have a "soft" limit on the number of times they can be executed. An example of a "hard" limit on an ability is an ability that can be executed one time every two seconds, enforced by the server. ESO doesn't have many of those. Instead, we designed the game to have soft limits, which mean you can execute as many abilities as you want as long as you have the resources - Stamina or Magicka - to cast them. There is a global "cool down" timer on all abilities, which is set to 1000 milliseconds.

The design goal of soft limits in any game is to allow players to create builds that let them execute abilities more often depending on build choices made, and not to have hard ceilings on damage or healing per second. This gives a lot of control to the player, which makes for a really fun and interesting system, but it can lead to situations where players cast too many abilities too quickly (and continuously) if strict limits on resources are not enforced.

Over the years, player power has grown considerably. With the addition of the Champion System, various armor/weapons sets, and changes to abilities, we have reached the stage where players - with the right build - can cast near-infinite numbers of abilities. If you add in a properly managed group, with some focused on damage and some focused on healing and regen boosts, you have a perpetually running never-ending stream of abilities.

With that in mind, consider how Area of Effect (AOE) abilities work: when cast, they look at a specific target area - almost always the area directly around the caster - find targets, and perform the ability. Each of those steps requires server calculations.

At launch, Cyrodiil’s processes were able to keep up with the number of AOEs cast, because most players couldn’t cast that many of them: they ran out of Magicka or Stamina, so they had to use AOEs judiciously. Over time, as player knowledge grew and regen builds grew in power, more players could cast more and more AOEs before running out of resources.

During these years, we found and fixed many performance issues in Cyrodiil, and we continue to do so. We've fixed significant issues, uncovered more, and continue to find and fix with every Update.

However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.

Our initial response to this problem – starting with Update 22 – was to find (and fix) more than a few problems with AOE ability calculations and make them more performant - and we stayed (mostly) ahead of the problem. But as more players reached maximum Champion Level and more players started utilizing this particular method of "AOE spamming", we have reached the point where we cannot fix this issue around the edges: we need to address the core problem, which we will be starting with Update 27.

To do this, we will need to first do some analysis, and we can only do this on the live servers. As much as we try to avoid running tests on live servers, they are the only place where the combination of player behavior, specific builds, and mass battles happen. So, starting the week of August 24, we will be running a series of tests on the live PC servers – both NA & EU, only in Cyrodiil. Please note that we will not be running these tests on any Console servers. Each test should take about a week, but if needed, we will extend the testing time.

The first round of tests we are planning will focus on Area of Effect (AOE) abilities in Cyrodiil and will make it more difficult for AOE abilities to be the only abilities used, adjusting cooldown, cost and regen values of all AOEs (damage and healing).

Specific details on the tests we will be running in Cyrodiil are as follows:

• Test 1 – Shared global AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds a global 3 second shared cooldown to any AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast another for 3 seconds. For example, as a Templar, if I cast Ritual of Retribution, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep for 3 seconds.
• Test 2 – Individual AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast that same AOE ability for 3 seconds. For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.
• Test 3 – No cooldown, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds a global ramping AOE cost for each AOE cast. Similar to how streak or roll dodge works, where when you cast an AOE you receive a debuff for 5 seconds, each stack of the debuff increases the cost of any AOE cast.
• Test 4 – Individual AOE cooldown – 3 second timer, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each ability as in test 2, but also combines that with a global ramping cost from test 3.

During the times that any of these tests are active, we will be awarding double Alliance Points for anyone active in Cyrodiil.

After we complete the above tests, we may try other combinations of cooldown, cost, and regen values on AOE abilities. However, we need to run these tests first and then assess the data. We will then let everyone know what we found and how we will move forward. We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary.

The code for these changes will be going into today’s PTS patch, and we will be running some basic tests throughout the day on Tuesday in Cyrodiil to ensure we’re able to make the above changes without requiring any maintenance or downtime. Once we launch Update 27 for PC on August 24, we will announce when one of the tests are beginning through an in-game announcement and will have a forum thread detailing which test is currently being performed. Remember, these tests will be limited to Cyrodiil, so AOE abilities in other PVP spaces (Imperial City and Battlegrounds) and will remain unchanged for now. We will evaluate how these tests go, and let everyone know next steps.

Thanks for being patient and understanding with these tests. They are extremely important for the team and will help us work towards improving Cyrodiil performance.

You’re telling us how your game works, when I know for sure on numerous occasions in meetings devs as well as class rep meetings where things were brought up that you had no clue about.

Let’s be honest, you have NEVER fixed anything regarding performance in cyrodiil. It’s still the same abhorrent mess it’s always been. Off hours where the population/crippling lag isn’t high/bad enough to show the glaring mismanagement of your own game is basically the last bastion for many players, who unfortunately cling to your game like itchy addicts because when the game works... there is simply nothing else like it. You can cater all you want to the brainless slot machine players that blob around a circle in the middle of a zone, and provided the game still works... people play.

Problem is, it hasn’t worked, in some form or another, for the games entire life.
And your “test” is of course going to provide positive results, because there will be functionally no fighting. Look at all your abilities that have secondary and tertiary effects that hit more than 1 enemy... it vastly outweighs the number of remaining available skills that fit the criteria for your test.

Strider__Roshin

maxjapank wrote: »

What a nightmare for a Templar’s during these tests as our main spammable, Sweeps, is aoe.

Truthfully, sweeps has always been too good in group play. I think if they made it a single target dodgeable ability it would be better for balance and for performance.