Crime system improvement: sorcerers

Demnvath

VaranisArano wrote: »

Demnvath wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Demnvath wrote: »

Most_Awesome wrote: »

If there was a more in depth outlaw system then sure, but there isn't its just a silly gold sink put into the game, when they cancelled Outlaw PvP.

Why dont we make Nightblade skill line Siphoning a crime with skills like Strife draining the blood from your enemies, where do we draw the line.

Drain spells are in the destruction magic school. Destruction is not forbiden. It's like casting a fireball. That's as simple as this. It's killing people with that fireball or that drain spell that is forbiden.

Congrats, you've just described how daedric conjuration is treated in every TES game.

You quote a sentence where I don't speak of any daedric thing. It's nowhere an evidence.
Conjuration is strictly regulated by the authorities (even in Morrowind) when it deals with summoning daedra (or skelettons, same magic school).
2E583 is a time where a daedric prince try to merge Nirn with his own realm, and in no way summoning daedric spawns is welcome by any citizen of any place on Tamriel, thus by the authorities (except, again, in Morrowind)

I quoted you on destruction, pointing out that you are ignoring that this is exactly the same approach followed by the authorities when it comes to Conjuration. Regulated? Sure, the regulation we see is "don't let your summons hurt people."

As for the Planemeld...

You haven't played TES IV Oblivion, have you. You should. It's a good game.

Its also a game where a Daedric Prince is trying to merge Nirn with his own realm. Yes, ZOS pretty much stole the "Molag Bal tries to invade Nirn" plot straight from TES IV Oblivion. Mehrunes Dagon is miffed at Molag Bal copying him. Which makes your attempt to point to ESO's plot as justification pretty hilarious. We've already been there, done that, and and - guess what - nobody cares that I'm summoning Daedra in Oblivion. Even in the middle of a full-blown daedric invasions that destroyed a major city, there's a whole Mages Guild post dedicated to teaching Conjuration, including summoning Daedra. So, no, actually the citizens of Tamriel don't care that I'm summoning daedric creatures. Even in the middle of a daedric invasion of Nirn.

Look, even Vanus Galerion summons dremora: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/I_was_Summoned_by_a_Mortal

I get it, you wanna point to your selectively cherry-picked lore sources and ignore the gameplay of ESO and previous TES games in order to remove sorc pets. You want to ignore the fact that daedric Conjuration - even when it is regulated - has never once been a criminal act for players unless an NPC is injured by the summon - even in the midst of a full-blown daedric invasion (both in ESO and in Oblivion.)

Just ask ZOS for other ways to handle the problems sorc pets can cause. Trying to point to selected lore or plot of ESO is not very strong support for criminalizing gameplay retroactively.

You just make your gaming experience a point. It's not how it works.

Summoning daedra is dangerous and in every TES you have examples of summoners being killed by their spawns which then go on a rampage over near villages and citizens. The number of conjurers' bodies in TES games is tremendous.

The fact that a skilled Heroe of Kvatch, Nerevarine or Dovahkiin summon daedra without alarming anybody has nothing to do with hundreds of nobodies wandering in towns with albinos daedric minions. As said before by others, a time where a daedric Prince litterally sends its minions on Nirn to kill and enslave should make the citizens from every country of Tamriel reluctant toward daedra minions of random sorcerers, as they are reluctant to necromancy or vampirism.

Summoning daedra freely is perceived differently depending on where you live on Tamriel. In Morrowind, nobody cares about a sorcerer followed by a scamp. There even are dremoras guarding shrines. The connection between dunmers and daedra is somehow beneficial. But consider that doing the exact same thing on Summerset Islands is highly dubious, as daedra are there not considered as allies at all, but foes. Consider that conjuring an atronach or any daedra in Valenwood where Gil-Var-Delle has been obliterated by Merhunes Dagon few years ago is highly doubtful. Any imperial character who fled Cyrodiil because the Empire has been destroyed by Molag Bal should fear daedra.
The best way to deal with daedra conjuration is to make different laws all over Tamriel in ESO to reflect cultural specificities. It's also a obviously difficult to bring to life in the game.
The most convenient way is: make conjuring daedra illegal. It's not the best (and I play a dunmer sorcerer, I know what I'm talking about) but it would be the most lore-friendly option.

VaranisArano

Demnvath wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Demnvath wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Demnvath wrote: »

Most_Awesome wrote: »

If there was a more in depth outlaw system then sure, but there isn't its just a silly gold sink put into the game, when they cancelled Outlaw PvP.

Why dont we make Nightblade skill line Siphoning a crime with skills like Strife draining the blood from your enemies, where do we draw the line.

Drain spells are in the destruction magic school. Destruction is not forbiden. It's like casting a fireball. That's as simple as this. It's killing people with that fireball or that drain spell that is forbiden.

Congrats, you've just described how daedric conjuration is treated in every TES game.

You quote a sentence where I don't speak of any daedric thing. It's nowhere an evidence.
Conjuration is strictly regulated by the authorities (even in Morrowind) when it deals with summoning daedra (or skelettons, same magic school).
2E583 is a time where a daedric prince try to merge Nirn with his own realm, and in no way summoning daedric spawns is welcome by any citizen of any place on Tamriel, thus by the authorities (except, again, in Morrowind)

I quoted you on destruction, pointing out that you are ignoring that this is exactly the same approach followed by the authorities when it comes to Conjuration. Regulated? Sure, the regulation we see is "don't let your summons hurt people."

As for the Planemeld...

You haven't played TES IV Oblivion, have you. You should. It's a good game.

Its also a game where a Daedric Prince is trying to merge Nirn with his own realm. Yes, ZOS pretty much stole the "Molag Bal tries to invade Nirn" plot straight from TES IV Oblivion. Mehrunes Dagon is miffed at Molag Bal copying him. Which makes your attempt to point to ESO's plot as justification pretty hilarious. We've already been there, done that, and and - guess what - nobody cares that I'm summoning Daedra in Oblivion. Even in the middle of a full-blown daedric invasions that destroyed a major city, there's a whole Mages Guild post dedicated to teaching Conjuration, including summoning Daedra. So, no, actually the citizens of Tamriel don't care that I'm summoning daedric creatures. Even in the middle of a daedric invasion of Nirn.

Look, even Vanus Galerion summons dremora: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/I_was_Summoned_by_a_Mortal

I get it, you wanna point to your selectively cherry-picked lore sources and ignore the gameplay of ESO and previous TES games in order to remove sorc pets. You want to ignore the fact that daedric Conjuration - even when it is regulated - has never once been a criminal act for players unless an NPC is injured by the summon - even in the midst of a full-blown daedric invasion (both in ESO and in Oblivion.)

Just ask ZOS for other ways to handle the problems sorc pets can cause. Trying to point to selected lore or plot of ESO is not very strong support for criminalizing gameplay retroactively.

You just make your gaming experience a point. It's not how it works.

Summoning daedra is dangerous and in every TES you have examples of summoners being killed by their spawns which then go on a rampage over near villages and citizens. The number of conjurers' bodies in TES games is tremendous.

The fact that a skilled Heroe of Kvatch, Nerevarine or Dovahkiin summon daedra without alarming anybody has nothing to do with hundreds of nobodies wandering in towns with albinos daedric minions. As said before by others, a time where a daedric Prince litterally sends its minions on Nirn to kill and enslave should make the citizens from every country of Tamriel reluctant toward daedra minions of random sorcerers, as they are reluctant to necromancy or vampirism.

Summoning daedra freely is perceived differently depending on where you live on Tamriel. In Morrowind, nobody cares about a sorcerer followed by a scamp. There even are dremoras guarding shrines. The connection between dunmers and daedra is somehow beneficial. But consider that doing the exact same thing on Summerset Islands is highly dubious, as daedra are there not considered as allies at all, but foes. Consider that conjuring an atronach or any daedra in Valenwood where Gil-Var-Delle has been obliterated by Merhunes Dagon few years ago is highly doubtful. Any imperial character who fled Cyrodiil because the Empire has been destroyed by Molag Bal should fear daedra.
The best way to deal with daedra conjuration is to make different laws all over Tamriel in ESO to reflect cultural specificities. It's also a obviously difficult to bring to life in the game.
The most convenient way is: make conjuring daedra illegal. It's not the best (and I play a dunmer sorcerer, I know what I'm talking about) but it would be the most lore-friendly option.

Then I guess its rather awkward that there's that one merchant wandering around Summerset with a flame atronach pack animal. I guess they aren't so worried about it after all.

And also that the NPCs don't care that I'm summoning daedra because I'm the hero of all three alliances, the Vestige, yada yada. Just like the Nerevarine, Hero of Kvatch, and Dovahkiin. (They don't care before you find out you are the Nerevarine, etc. either, so its not just special dispensation.)

"But there are so many random people around who can't ALL be the hero/vestige/member of the mages guild in good standing!"
Its an MMO. You're just gonna have to figure out how to deal with having multiple players who can justifiably pull the "I saved Nirn with those summoned daedra" card. We're NOT just random sorcerers.

And I remind you again, No One Cares about summoned Daedra in any other TES game as long as they aren't harming anyone. They don't care in ESO either. You wanna roleplay being an Imperial who fears Daedra?Great! You do you! The Drake of Blades and the other NPCs hanging out in the sewers who actually fled the daedric occupation of the Imperial City? Don't Care when a hero shows up with a twilight flapping and a scamp scurrying behind them. That's lore as much as the books.

I'd argue that the most lorefriendly and most player-friendly option is the one that most closely matches past games in both gameplay and worldbuilding, the status of ESO's player character, and past/current NPC reactions: summoning daedra is not a criminal action unless an innocent is harmed.

Ajaxandriel

Demnvath wrote: »

The best way to deal with daedra conjuration is to make different laws all over Tamriel in ESO to reflect cultural specificities. It's also a obviously difficult to bring to life in the game.

This is the point. I find that your suggestion is interesting, yet, as some have said ...it should be handled very carfully because it would have more lore discrepancies to happen.
Indeed I feel weird when I see sorcerer running with daedric minions all around in Alinor.

But
"The most convenient way is: make conjuring daedra illegal. It's not the best (and I play a dunmer sorcerer, I know what I'm talking about) but it would be the most lore-friendly option."
...I don't think so. The current law is the best trade-off.

There are other oddities running all around in cities, that weakens immersion more than pacified winged twilights and clanfears, without any matter of in-universe "city laws".
IMO the main problem are the end-game skins and exceptional mounts that are given for player recognition and not aesthetically/roleplay-friendly.

Now if we're talking of improved Justice System then we have to talk about the cultural differences first, because it's key and that has not been adressed in game yet.

- All necromancy spells should be outlawed in Redguard cities. Not only the deepest ones.
- Picking herbs, jute and linen should be outlawed in Wood Elf zones. (Wood collecting seems OK since it's dead wood.)
- Sorcerer spells not penalized in Morrowind, Elsweyr, Wrothgar, Cyrodiil (lol), I guess, Black Marsh too?

Then how would we handle the non-combat pets? Some are of daedric nature.

Anyway - as for Daedric summoning, it should not trigger attack on sight from the guards (maybe even in Auridon but that's debatable). Instead a guard should arrest you for a penalty just like when you are stealing and revoke the pet.

Demnvath wrote: »

Most_Awesome wrote: »

So as a Sorc you want me enter my skill tree, de select pet skill, back out of skill tree, go back into skill tree select pet skill, then carry on what I'm doing every time I walk into a town or near a NPC.


NO

YES. Or add a expel button

Of course the most annoying thing with these pets is that we can not revoke them...

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Simple solution:

The spell can work the same but make the summons only become visible when in combat and the moment you leave combat they vanish from sight.