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• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – October 7, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 4:00PM EDT (20:00 UTC)
Story Mode Dungeons: Do we want them?
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Contaminate✭✭✭✭✭
✭NO. Do not add a story mode.curtisnewton wrote: »
If you wanted a single player game, eso was never the game for you. ever. They cater to everyone, and you are not the crowd they are catering to when it comes to dungeons. And yes, demon dogs should be able to kill you quickly.
Tbh the game being mmo shouldn't affect the content available. Especially since the game has such a big casual community from TeS games. Now i agree that skill points should not be given on story mode (even though they are tied to the quest, so if it is implemented they will probably put it in anyway) because it will lower the initiative to go multiplayer for dungeon skill points (i would totally take all my tank toons for quick rushed story mode for skill points ez, and thats already a huge reason against it)
shifting to spending dev time on a story mode would take away somewhere else.
Do you think it is really a lot more than sth. Like:
If player count = 1
Then mobstrength factor = 0.2
?
Story mode sounds so big, but in fact.. Just being easier with weaker enemies would be already ok. As there is already a deep scaling mechanic in place I doubt much dev time was lost.
And gaining a 60% more happy player base (according to the polls) should be worth it anyway. And how can sth. Optional offend anyone is beyond me.
Same could be said about an instance for vet mode overland.
So you'd be cool with a vet overworld with no rewards? Because almost everyone who wants a vet overworld wants additional rewards while almost no one is asking for any type of reward for story mode dungeons, including that funky skill point you keep holding on to lol.
Anyone who has seen your posts knows the real reason why you are opposed to a story mode dungeon and in both instances you are in the minority. As you so nicely told another, if a challenging overworld is what you desire, ESO is not the game for you. It's a storybased MMO first and foremost.
Let that sink in.
More difficult modes obviously should give more rewards. Same as vet dungeons give better rewards than normal dungeons.
And in the same vein, story mode with failsafes that prevent you from being unable able to win, should not have any rewards.2 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Contaminate wrote: »curtisnewton wrote: »
If you wanted a single player game, eso was never the game for you. ever. They cater to everyone, and you are not the crowd they are catering to when it comes to dungeons. And yes, demon dogs should be able to kill you quickly.
Tbh the game being mmo shouldn't affect the content available. Especially since the game has such a big casual community from TeS games. Now i agree that skill points should not be given on story mode (even though they are tied to the quest, so if it is implemented they will probably put it in anyway) because it will lower the initiative to go multiplayer for dungeon skill points (i would totally take all my tank toons for quick rushed story mode for skill points ez, and thats already a huge reason against it)
shifting to spending dev time on a story mode would take away somewhere else.
Do you think it is really a lot more than sth. Like:
If player count = 1
Then mobstrength factor = 0.2
?
Story mode sounds so big, but in fact.. Just being easier with weaker enemies would be already ok. As there is already a deep scaling mechanic in place I doubt much dev time was lost.
And gaining a 60% more happy player base (according to the polls) should be worth it anyway. And how can sth. Optional offend anyone is beyond me.
Same could be said about an instance for vet mode overland.
So you'd be cool with a vet overworld with no rewards? Because almost everyone who wants a vet overworld wants additional rewards while almost no one is asking for any type of reward for story mode dungeons, including that funky skill point you keep holding on to lol.
Anyone who has seen your posts knows the real reason why you are opposed to a story mode dungeon and in both instances you are in the minority. As you so nicely told another, if a challenging overworld is what you desire, ESO is not the game for you. It's a storybased MMO first and foremost.
Let that sink in.
More difficult modes obviously should give more rewards. Same as vet dungeons give better rewards than normal dungeons.
And in the same vein, story mode with failsafes that prevent you from being unable able to win, should not have any rewards.
So we agree both sides are asking for two different things? Story mode fans acknowledge the story is the reward while vet overworld fans acknowledge it's not about the challenge but the additional rewards?There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway7 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭YES. We want a story mode.
That is misconception. Some developers have made such a mistake in the past, they gave better rewards and more character experience on higher difficulty levels. The results were actually not surprising: higher difficulty modes we exploited so much that became easier as better rewards were outweighing higher difficulty.Contaminate wrote: »More difficult modes obviously should give more rewards.
The opposite is actually true: players who are good enough to beat higher difficulties do not need better rewards that would widen the gap even more. They need handicaps.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.5 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭For those arguing that “some” story should be gated behind harder content....
1.) I don’t think your view is unreasonable. Certainly some content should.
2.) However, if you think that’s the only issue here then you aren’t appreciating the nuance of this debate. We have seen some fussing in the past but what is happening now is different. What changed?
ZOS has historically made some hard content for those who love it, then made a large single player story for the casuals. And a lot of us enjoy both of course.
Historically, these casual/lore seekers/non social gamers (or however they should be referred to) have been mostly content with their lot. They understood some content wasn’t their thing but the large single player story content was theirs.
Key thought: that has always been what they could count on being theirs to enjoy without being gated by multi player or difficulty.
THAT has changed with the new full year- single story strategy.
Now, a small piece of what was ALWAYS their thing has suddenly been locked behind not only 4 player group content, but admittedly advanced 4 player group content.
THAT is a major change to the status quo of the game.
I’m not saying you have to agree with them, or agree with the proposed solution. I’m saying if you can’t recognize this fundamental change as significant to this crowd, then you can not appreciate this discussion.
It does not matter if you think it is a challenging gate to that piece of story. It is a NEW gate directly impacting their key slice of the game.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest6 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭
That is misconception. Some developers have made such a mistake in the past, they gave better rewards and more character experience on higher difficulty levels. The results were actually not surprising: higher difficulty modes we exploited so much that became easier as better rewards were outweighing higher difficulty.Contaminate wrote: »More difficult modes obviously should give more rewards.
The opposite is actually true: players who are good enough to beat higher difficulties do not need better rewards that would widen the gap even more. They need handicaps.
Yep. As long as they continue to want better rewards I'm going to have to assume it's all about getting better rewards to futher leg up themselves from others rather than it being because they really want a challenge. Not worth the resources imho.There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway7 -
TheImperfect✭✭✭✭✭
✭YES. We want a story mode.For the people who are worried that players will only use story mode and nobody will want to group, that won't be the case. I want to do story mode for quests and lore the first time and possibly a few times later just to revisit it. There will be other occasions, probably most, when I and most other people would just want to run the dungeon for fast fun or getting gear etc.4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other:Normal dungeons are already very easy, I don't believe that cater to the lowest denominator. I don't believe all content should be accessible to the people that don't want to put in the effort to actually prepare for the content, already I think normal trials were a huge mistake, same goes for normal version of vet dungeons.
No content is that hard in this game that it's impossible to complete for a semi-casual player, from a story point of view.
Except the large majority of people asking for Solo are not looking for faster/easier ways to grind loot & XP. In fact people have already proposed a system that explicitly prevents people from gaining the dungeon rewards and would treat it like any overland quest.
Nor is this something only the lowest common denominator wants - as it has been requested by many veterans of the game that regularly do group content.
Most people that are requesting this feature want it so then they can take their time to explore the story & lore in the dungeon without being rushed by a group.
It's not controversial nor is it a big deal.
It is a reasonable request especially now that ZOS is now making the Dungeons even more connected to the main story of the Season.
you can solo any normal dungeon in the game using legendary gear and a single skill, so that is not argument for a story mode dungeon, plus it's an MMO it's supposed to be played with other people that is the entire point of online games.
Story quests in zones are designed so they can be done solo.
BGs are about to be solo queue only.
MA is designed so that is can only be done solo.
So that argument does not hold up to actual facts.
I agree that there should be content for grouping and that some content should only be available for groups. However Zos has chosen to thread the story line that is designed to be done solo through a dungeon and that creates a different situation for the related dungeons.
So in the end your argument does not hold up to scrutiny based on facts concerning the design of the game and I do not see how offering a story mode for these dungeons would hurt any of us. Lets be real, we are making a big deal about something that if implemented is not going to harm our gameplay.9 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YES. We want a story mode.I'm actually not able to solo a normal dungeon. My ping is huge (between 750 and 1500, depending on the day and other stuff going on, most of which I don't actually have a clue about), and my reflexes are not so good at my age (oh to be 25 years younger....) - so keeping a smooth combat rotation is pretty difficult for me.
I do have to say that it's not going to be a huge problem for me if solo dungeons never happen - I just won't ever get to know the stories (as another thing I can't do is use my limited bandwidth to watch youtube vids of things like dungeon stories). It's a bit sad, since TES is all about the lore and the stories, but I do still have fun not only in ESO but still in Oblivion and Skyrim.0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YES. We want a story mode.Dusk_Coven wrote: »you can solo any normal dungeon in the game using legendary gear and a single skill, so that is not argument for a story mode dungeon, plus it's an MMO it's supposed to be played with other people that is the entire point of online games.
Wayrest 2.
Fungal Grotto 2.
And others.
Do you even do dungeons?
you can solo these dungeons relatively easily on normal if you want to take your time and explore it,
unless you are god's gift to dps (which with a single skill? you are NOT), you literally cannot, because there are mechanics in those dungeons that are either going to basically one shot you
for example getting chained in FG2 - in a group, where presumable boss is on tank, even if no one breaks you out, at least damage from unbroken chains is the only thing you are taking, so its survivable - when you are solo, between damage from the boss and chains? you are dead. something very similar happens in Wayrest 2.
and then there are ye olde favorites of "must step on two pressure plates on the opposite sides of the room at the same time" mechanics. I.. think... you can cheese them in direfrost? not sure about imperial prison.
and then... there are DLC dungeons other then IC. those on normal, are harder then early vanilla dungeons on vet. NOT an exaggeration.
you need a very specific set up in terms of gear and skills, heck - you more or less need to be a specific class to pull it off, and generally people who can DO that? are in a minority of players, much like people who are clearing VMA - are in a minority.
last but not least. sigh... the poin of online game is to give you an OPTION to play with other people. to give you a world with other people in it to play. NOT to force you into grouping.
I don't think all content should be accessible without a group
and i don't think stories, let alone parts of ongoing story that is otherwise solo - should be hidden behind group content. at least our compromise suggestions mean that everyone gets to play the way they want. you are just stubbornly stomping your foot, going NA AAh, I don't want you to have fun because it doesn't match my personal idea of fun.
it's not that I don't think you should have fun, it's that content should get progressively harder, and by catering to the lowest denominator, you stagnate end game content, some parts of the story should be locked behind harder content, that's what is supposed to give you insentive to invest into your character and the game. ESO's content is already far too accessible for players, a feature like this is not needed, instead the devs should focus on features that help introduce new players to the different content.
you are STILL not understanding the argument being made here.
its.
NOT.
ABOUT. DIFFICULTY IN A GROUP.
its about NOT being able to EXPERIENCE STORY IN A GROUP.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***11 -
Heelie✭✭✭✭✭NO. Do not add a story mode.Dusk_Coven wrote: »you can solo any normal dungeon in the game using legendary gear and a single skill, so that is not argument for a story mode dungeon, plus it's an MMO it's supposed to be played with other people that is the entire point of online games.
Wayrest 2.
Fungal Grotto 2.
And others.
Do you even do dungeons?
you can solo these dungeons relatively easily on normal if you want to take your time and explore it,
unless you are god's gift to dps (which with a single skill? you are NOT), you literally cannot, because there are mechanics in those dungeons that are either going to basically one shot you
for example getting chained in FG2 - in a group, where presumable boss is on tank, even if no one breaks you out, at least damage from unbroken chains is the only thing you are taking, so its survivable - when you are solo, between damage from the boss and chains? you are dead. something very similar happens in Wayrest 2.
and then there are ye olde favorites of "must step on two pressure plates on the opposite sides of the room at the same time" mechanics. I.. think... you can cheese them in direfrost? not sure about imperial prison.
and then... there are DLC dungeons other then IC. those on normal, are harder then early vanilla dungeons on vet. NOT an exaggeration.
you need a very specific set up in terms of gear and skills, heck - you more or less need to be a specific class to pull it off, and generally people who can DO that? are in a minority of players, much like people who are clearing VMA - are in a minority.
last but not least. sigh... the poin of online game is to give you an OPTION to play with other people. to give you a world with other people in it to play. NOT to force you into grouping.
I don't think all content should be accessible without a group
and i don't think stories, let alone parts of ongoing story that is otherwise solo - should be hidden behind group content. at least our compromise suggestions mean that everyone gets to play the way they want. you are just stubbornly stomping your foot, going NA AAh, I don't want you to have fun because it doesn't match my personal idea of fun.
it's not that I don't think you should have fun, it's that content should get progressively harder, and by catering to the lowest denominator, you stagnate end game content, some parts of the story should be locked behind harder content, that's what is supposed to give you insentive to invest into your character and the game. ESO's content is already far too accessible for players, a feature like this is not needed, instead the devs should focus on features that help introduce new players to the different content.
you are STILL not understanding the argument being made here.
its.
NOT.
ABOUT. DIFFICULTY IN A GROUP.
its about NOT being able to EXPERIENCE STORY IN A GROUP.
What stops you from grouping up with like minded people?Most OwOrated healer of all time2 -
curtisnewton✭✭✭YES. We want a story mode.On the other hand instead of making a solo story mode, why not make a forced first run slow mode. If one group member didnt finish the dungeon yet, all npc talk is unskippable for all members and everything is slow, players cant move in scenes. The whole time is frozen until the last player listened to all talks, looted all boxes and read all books.
I can live with that.
In some scenes, for example if an important npc dies, i want to breath, listen to rain, wind or water streams and make a small break for maybe 2 - 5 minutes, depends.
Sometimes theres a beautiful place, sky, ornaments, i like to watch those things actually. I am sure for all players to wait for me is better than enabling a solo mode. Also i want players in silly outfits to be invisible or forced adventurer outfit..
Solo mode, who needs that pfff?Edited by curtisnewton on 26 January 2020 01:283 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YES. We want a story mode.Dusk_Coven wrote: »you can solo any normal dungeon in the game using legendary gear and a single skill, so that is not argument for a story mode dungeon, plus it's an MMO it's supposed to be played with other people that is the entire point of online games.
Wayrest 2.
Fungal Grotto 2.
And others.
Do you even do dungeons?
you can solo these dungeons relatively easily on normal if you want to take your time and explore it,
unless you are god's gift to dps (which with a single skill? you are NOT), you literally cannot, because there are mechanics in those dungeons that are either going to basically one shot you
for example getting chained in FG2 - in a group, where presumable boss is on tank, even if no one breaks you out, at least damage from unbroken chains is the only thing you are taking, so its survivable - when you are solo, between damage from the boss and chains? you are dead. something very similar happens in Wayrest 2.
and then there are ye olde favorites of "must step on two pressure plates on the opposite sides of the room at the same time" mechanics. I.. think... you can cheese them in direfrost? not sure about imperial prison.
and then... there are DLC dungeons other then IC. those on normal, are harder then early vanilla dungeons on vet. NOT an exaggeration.
you need a very specific set up in terms of gear and skills, heck - you more or less need to be a specific class to pull it off, and generally people who can DO that? are in a minority of players, much like people who are clearing VMA - are in a minority.
last but not least. sigh... the poin of online game is to give you an OPTION to play with other people. to give you a world with other people in it to play. NOT to force you into grouping.
I don't think all content should be accessible without a group
and i don't think stories, let alone parts of ongoing story that is otherwise solo - should be hidden behind group content. at least our compromise suggestions mean that everyone gets to play the way they want. you are just stubbornly stomping your foot, going NA AAh, I don't want you to have fun because it doesn't match my personal idea of fun.
it's not that I don't think you should have fun, it's that content should get progressively harder, and by catering to the lowest denominator, you stagnate end game content, some parts of the story should be locked behind harder content, that's what is supposed to give you insentive to invest into your character and the game. ESO's content is already far too accessible for players, a feature like this is not needed, instead the devs should focus on features that help introduce new players to the different content.
you are STILL not understanding the argument being made here.
its.
NOT.
ABOUT. DIFFICULTY IN A GROUP.
its about NOT being able to EXPERIENCE STORY IN A GROUP.
What stops you from grouping up with like minded people?
/rubs temples. I feel like a broken record, I've explained this so many times.
scheduling conflicts. the fact that even when we do manage to wrangle our schedules into alignment - people STILL play at a different pace so someone is always either waiting, or being waited on and at some point unless you are sociopath, you start feeling bad about that. the fact that all too many times, only the person who gets to converse with NPC's first - gets to hear all of the dialogue as the game registers that conversation was completed and progresses them to the next stage of the quest before you had a chance to see all of the dialogue.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***10 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NO. Do not add a story mode.Dusk_Coven wrote: »
Ok, you can have one dungeon. If you wanna use that comparison.4 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NO. Do not add a story mode.curtisnewton wrote: »
If you wanted a single player game, eso was never the game for you. ever. They cater to everyone, and you are not the crowd they are catering to when it comes to dungeons. And yes, demon dogs should be able to kill you quickly.
Tbh the game being mmo shouldn't affect the content available. Especially since the game has such a big casual community from TeS games. Now i agree that skill points should not be given on story mode (even though they are tied to the quest, so if it is implemented they will probably put it in anyway) because it will lower the initiative to go multiplayer for dungeon skill points (i would totally take all my tank toons for quick rushed story mode for skill points ez, and thats already a huge reason against it)
shifting to spending dev time on a story mode would take away somewhere else.
Do you think it is really a lot more than sth. Like:
If player count = 1
Then mobstrength factor = 0.2
?
Story mode sounds so big, but in fact.. Just being easier with weaker enemies would be already ok. As there is already a deep scaling mechanic in place I doubt much dev time was lost.
And gaining a 60% more happy player base (according to the polls) should be worth it anyway. And how can sth. Optional offend anyone is beyond me.
Same could be said about an instance for vet mode overland.
So you'd be cool with a vet overworld with no rewards? Because almost everyone who wants a vet overworld wants additional rewards while almost no one is asking for any type of reward for story mode dungeons, including that funky skill point you keep holding on to lol.
Anyone who has seen your posts knows the real reason why you are opposed to a story mode dungeon and in both instances you are in the minority. As you so nicely told another, if a challenging overworld is what you desire, ESO is not the game for you. It's a storybased MMO first and foremost.
Let that sink in.
No, if you put more effort in you get more rewards, as is the case in vet dungeons. More effort - more reward, less effort - less reward.3 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NO. Do not add a story mode.Dusk_Coven wrote: »you can solo any normal dungeon in the game using legendary gear and a single skill, so that is not argument for a story mode dungeon, plus it's an MMO it's supposed to be played with other people that is the entire point of online games.
Wayrest 2.
Fungal Grotto 2.
And others.
Do you even do dungeons?
you can solo these dungeons relatively easily on normal if you want to take your time and explore it,
unless you are god's gift to dps (which with a single skill? you are NOT), you literally cannot, because there are mechanics in those dungeons that are either going to basically one shot you
for example getting chained in FG2 - in a group, where presumable boss is on tank, even if no one breaks you out, at least damage from unbroken chains is the only thing you are taking, so its survivable - when you are solo, between damage from the boss and chains? you are dead. something very similar happens in Wayrest 2.
and then there are ye olde favorites of "must step on two pressure plates on the opposite sides of the room at the same time" mechanics. I.. think... you can cheese them in direfrost? not sure about imperial prison.
and then... there are DLC dungeons other then IC. those on normal, are harder then early vanilla dungeons on vet. NOT an exaggeration.
you need a very specific set up in terms of gear and skills, heck - you more or less need to be a specific class to pull it off, and generally people who can DO that? are in a minority of players, much like people who are clearing VMA - are in a minority.
last but not least. sigh... the poin of online game is to give you an OPTION to play with other people. to give you a world with other people in it to play. NOT to force you into grouping.
I don't think all content should be accessible without a group
and i don't think stories, let alone parts of ongoing story that is otherwise solo - should be hidden behind group content. at least our compromise suggestions mean that everyone gets to play the way they want. you are just stubbornly stomping your foot, going NA AAh, I don't want you to have fun because it doesn't match my personal idea of fun.
it's not that I don't think you should have fun, it's that content should get progressively harder, and by catering to the lowest denominator, you stagnate end game content, some parts of the story should be locked behind harder content, that's what is supposed to give you insentive to invest into your character and the game. ESO's content is already far too accessible for players, a feature like this is not needed, instead the devs should focus on features that help introduce new players to the different content.
This 100%.2 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NO. Do not add a story mode.Dusk_Coven wrote: »you can solo any normal dungeon in the game using legendary gear and a single skill, so that is not argument for a story mode dungeon, plus it's an MMO it's supposed to be played with other people that is the entire point of online games.
Wayrest 2.
Fungal Grotto 2.
And others.
Do you even do dungeons?
you can solo these dungeons relatively easily on normal if you want to take your time and explore it,
unless you are god's gift to dps (which with a single skill? you are NOT), you literally cannot, because there are mechanics in those dungeons that are either going to basically one shot you
for example getting chained in FG2 - in a group, where presumable boss is on tank, even if no one breaks you out, at least damage from unbroken chains is the only thing you are taking, so its survivable - when you are solo, between damage from the boss and chains? you are dead. something very similar happens in Wayrest 2.
and then there are ye olde favorites of "must step on two pressure plates on the opposite sides of the room at the same time" mechanics. I.. think... you can cheese them in direfrost? not sure about imperial prison.
and then... there are DLC dungeons other then IC. those on normal, are harder then early vanilla dungeons on vet. NOT an exaggeration.
you need a very specific set up in terms of gear and skills, heck - you more or less need to be a specific class to pull it off, and generally people who can DO that? are in a minority of players, much like people who are clearing VMA - are in a minority.
last but not least. sigh... the poin of online game is to give you an OPTION to play with other people. to give you a world with other people in it to play. NOT to force you into grouping.
I don't think all content should be accessible without a group
and i don't think stories, let alone parts of ongoing story that is otherwise solo - should be hidden behind group content. at least our compromise suggestions mean that everyone gets to play the way they want. you are just stubbornly stomping your foot, going NA AAh, I don't want you to have fun because it doesn't match my personal idea of fun.
it's not that I don't think you should have fun, it's that content should get progressively harder, and by catering to the lowest denominator, you stagnate end game content, some parts of the story should be locked behind harder content, that's what is supposed to give you insentive to invest into your character and the game. ESO's content is already far too accessible for players, a feature like this is not needed, instead the devs should focus on features that help introduce new players to the different content.
you are STILL not understanding the argument being made here.
its.
NOT.
ABOUT. DIFFICULTY IN A GROUP.
its about NOT being able to EXPERIENCE STORY IN A GROUP.
You can yell all you want, ythis horse has been beaten to death since launch. It most likely will not happen, there have been things people asked for that had far more support than this, and they never got it.Edited by TheFM on 26 January 2020 03:391 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭It might not have been in this thread, and whilst I am positive I recall the poster's username, I won't tag them.
A comment was made that one of the 'problems' with the quest structure was the need to 'coordinate the clicking' as you proceed through quest dialogue.
I'd appreciate someone giving a real world example of how the formatting and delivery of the quest in a dungeon prohibited them from completing the quest.- Not due to player behaviour
- Not hyperbolic, 'Devil's Advocate,' or it happened to my guildie's cousin
An actual example; e.g., Selene's. Which, as I recall, does not have that issue as I have continued reading quest dialogue long after my party mates accepted and went off to engage in pleasant negotiations with the native Bosmers.0 -
Story mode dungeons are bad simply because you can hardly experience the story. Everyone's always in a rush, i can't find time to read the dialoges2
-
LoneStar2911✭✭✭✭✭YES. We want a story mode.Story mode dungeons are bad simply because you can hardly experience the story. Everyone's always in a rush, i can't find time to read the dialoges
I think you may have made a typo or forgot a few words.....
Did you mean "Story mode dungeons are badly needed"? Otherwise, the rest of what you said didn't make sense.
(PC-NA) @LoneStar29115 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YES. We want a story mode.Story mode dungeons are bad simply because you can hardly experience the story. Everyone's always in a rush, i can't find time to read the dialoges
Eh, we don't have story mode dungeons. That's what we're asking for. "because you can hardly experience the story" etc. I think you got your post a bit confused.2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes. Although I don’t want a story mode, let people who want it have it.Dusk_Coven wrote: »you can solo any normal dungeon in the game using legendary gear and a single skill, so that is not argument for a story mode dungeon, plus it's an MMO it's supposed to be played with other people that is the entire point of online games.
Wayrest 2.
Fungal Grotto 2.
And others.
Do you even do dungeons?
you can solo these dungeons relatively easily on normal if you want to take your time and explore it,
unless you are god's gift to dps (which with a single skill? you are NOT), you literally cannot, because there are mechanics in those dungeons that are either going to basically one shot you
for example getting chained in FG2 - in a group, where presumable boss is on tank, even if no one breaks you out, at least damage from unbroken chains is the only thing you are taking, so its survivable - when you are solo, between damage from the boss and chains? you are dead. something very similar happens in Wayrest 2.
and then there are ye olde favorites of "must step on two pressure plates on the opposite sides of the room at the same time" mechanics. I.. think... you can cheese them in direfrost? not sure about imperial prison.
and then... there are DLC dungeons other then IC. those on normal, are harder then early vanilla dungeons on vet. NOT an exaggeration.
you need a very specific set up in terms of gear and skills, heck - you more or less need to be a specific class to pull it off, and generally people who can DO that? are in a minority of players, much like people who are clearing VMA - are in a minority.
last but not least. sigh... the poin of online game is to give you an OPTION to play with other people. to give you a world with other people in it to play. NOT to force you into grouping.
I don't think all content should be accessible without a group
and i don't think stories, let alone parts of ongoing story that is otherwise solo - should be hidden behind group content. at least our compromise suggestions mean that everyone gets to play the way they want. you are just stubbornly stomping your foot, going NA AAh, I don't want you to have fun because it doesn't match my personal idea of fun.
it's not that I don't think you should have fun, it's that content should get progressively harder, and by catering to the lowest denominator, you stagnate end game content, some parts of the story should be locked behind harder content, that's what is supposed to give you insentive to invest into your character and the game. ESO's content is already far too accessible for players, a feature like this is not needed, instead the devs should focus on features that help introduce new players to the different content.
Except this isn't about catering to the lowest common denominator.
This is not about getting casual players access to rewards like skill points, Dungeon Gear, or undaunted rewards.
This is purely about having the chance to experience the story at one's own pace.
Especially now that ZOS is making Dungeons more integral to the Season Story.
This would not apply to Trials because they have no bearing on the main story.
The Main Story already appeals casual players because the final boss fights are unbearably easy. So the gameplay experience of the main story is not even consistent because we go from dungeons to easy bosses.
BUT - stick with me here - if players can get a story mode option for Dungeons then it would be reasonable to say that Group players like You and I could get a Hard Group Mode option of Story Final Bosses that offer epic rewards. That way we can have a more consistent gameplay experience option for the story.
That is a the trade that I want but it would stand to reason that if we want a Dungeon mode of the Story final boss then players should get a story mode that allows them to experience the story
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/509067/solo-group-settings-play-the-way-you-wantEdited by Iccotak on 26 January 2020 05:502 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭curtisnewton wrote: »
If you wanted a single player game, eso was never the game for you. ever. They cater to everyone, and you are not the crowd they are catering to when it comes to dungeons. And yes, demon dogs should be able to kill you quickly.
Tbh the game being mmo shouldn't affect the content available. Especially since the game has such a big casual community from TeS games. Now i agree that skill points should not be given on story mode (even though they are tied to the quest, so if it is implemented they will probably put it in anyway) because it will lower the initiative to go multiplayer for dungeon skill points (i would totally take all my tank toons for quick rushed story mode for skill points ez, and thats already a huge reason against it)
shifting to spending dev time on a story mode would take away somewhere else.
Do you think it is really a lot more than sth. Like:
If player count = 1
Then mobstrength factor = 0.2
?
Story mode sounds so big, but in fact.. Just being easier with weaker enemies would be already ok. As there is already a deep scaling mechanic in place I doubt much dev time was lost.
And gaining a 60% more happy player base (according to the polls) should be worth it anyway. And how can sth. Optional offend anyone is beyond me.
Same could be said about an instance for vet mode overland.
So you'd be cool with a vet overworld with no rewards? Because almost everyone who wants a vet overworld wants additional rewards while almost no one is asking for any type of reward for story mode dungeons, including that funky skill point you keep holding on to lol.
Anyone who has seen your posts knows the real reason why you are opposed to a story mode dungeon and in both instances you are in the minority. As you so nicely told another, if a challenging overworld is what you desire, ESO is not the game for you. It's a storybased MMO first and foremost.
Let that sink in.
No, if you put more effort in you get more rewards, as is the case in vet dungeons. More effort - more reward, less effort - less reward.
Exactly what I thought, you have zero interest in challenging content you just want extra rewards.
Let's be real here, for hardcore players,
the ones banging on about this challenging content is challenging the 1st time, maybe the 2nd as well. By the 3rd time you know what to expect and how to overcome it.
With that out of the way, you are now free to reap the additional rewards from "challenging" content that is no longer a challenge for you.
I found Maelstrom Arena extremely challenging the 1st few times, now it's a cakewalk.
I found Demon Souls challenging the 1st few times. No longer. Are they supposed to constantly redo overworld every update to keep up?
Nope, thereby leaving you what you really want, access to easy rewards because the content is no longer challenging.Edited by Sevn on 26 January 2020 04:59There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway10 -
OneForSorrow✭✭✭✭NO. Do not add a story mode.I say no storymode dungeons. HOWEVER... I strongly support more meaningful single player content. I know that zones scale now but we could really use a few max level only zones that players can carefully solo their way through and it would give rewards, teach you the ropes of your class, and have a good story.
Why not?
Basically I do think more solo stuff is fine, I'm just not sure the dungeons are the proper vehicle for them. Dungeons are not married to the story in this game in the same they are in, say, Final Fantasy XIV.
That all said what dungeons ARE more tied into the story could probably afford to not be like the DLC dungeons in terms of difficulty (outside Vet).Edited by OneForSorrow on 26 January 2020 07:07PC NA. Various alts, trying to find a main, I have no idea what I'm doing.0 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭YES. We want a story mode.Dusk_Coven wrote: »you can solo any normal dungeon in the game using legendary gear and a single skill, so that is not argument for a story mode dungeon, plus it's an MMO it's supposed to be played with other people that is the entire point of online games.
Wayrest 2.
Fungal Grotto 2.
And others.
Do you even do dungeons?
you can solo these dungeons relatively easily on normal if you want to take your time and explore it,
LOL. Nope. Obviously you haven't done these dungeons.
How about you play the game first before you try to weigh in on discussions.Edited by Dusk_Coven on 26 January 2020 07:366 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YES. We want a story mode.witchdoctor wrote: »It might not have been in this thread, and whilst I am positive I recall the poster's username, I won't tag them.
A comment was made that one of the 'problems' with the quest structure was the need to 'coordinate the clicking' as you proceed through quest dialogue.
I'd appreciate someone giving a real world example of how the formatting and delivery of the quest in a dungeon prohibited them from completing the quest.- Not due to player behaviour
- Not hyperbolic, 'Devil's Advocate,' or it happened to my guildie's cousin
An actual example; e.g., Selene's. Which, as I recall, does not have that issue as I have continued reading quest dialogue long after my party mates accepted and went off to engage in pleasant negotiations with the native Bosmers.
you are mixing up progressing the quest and ENJOYING the quest. progressing the quest for skill points requires minimal to no interaction, as long as at least one person progresses it - you are probably going to have it register.
however- ENJOYING the quest kinda comes with wanting to enjoy ALL of the dialogue. which... you cannot.
this is not unique to dungeons, BTW - more then once I would approach my quest target area only to realize that someone has already started the event so I had a choice to make - join in or walk away and restart after they are done, so that I get to see all of the event and listen to ALL of the dialogue.
but its a little easier to walk away when someone progresses out in a world quest before you, so you walk in on the middle - and redoing it. walking away from the dungeon, requires trying to find a group... again.
the very same dungeon you mention. Selene. first person to zone in - starts in game discussion between NPC's that culminates in them acknowledging your presence and making the quest available for pick up. if you are not the first person to zone in - you miss out parts or all of that discussion. it may seem like a small thing, but it adds up. there are a lot of these scenes in Selene's actualy, that trigger the moment first person approaches the trigger spot - from the earliest failed negotiation, to portaling in dying mage, etc. you lag behind? you miss those. and while you said "not due to player behavior" player behavior is exactly the problem. other players.
sometimes, you still have an option to talk to npc's. and sometimes - they run off. sometimes they do not, but you get much more limited dialogue ou of them, something in a vein of - we gotta get moving etc etc.
Edited by Linaleah on 26 January 2020 07:50dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***3 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭YES. We want a story mode.Dusk_Coven wrote: »
Ok, you can have one dungeon. If you wanna use that comparison.
Why not? And when ZOS sees how many people use Story Mode, they'll give us more.
You don't use vet zones they gave you, so no more for you.Edited by Dusk_Coven on 26 January 2020 07:438 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭YES. We want a story mode.So you'd be cool with a vet overworld with no rewards? Because almost everyone who wants a vet overworld wants additional rewards while almost no one is asking for any type of reward for story mode dungeons, including that funky skill point you keep holding on to lol.
…
Nope, thereby leaving you what you really want, access to easy rewards because the content is no longer challenging.
There is a vet overworld with challenge but few rewards -- Craglorn overland portals.
If you try to solo it they are one of the hardest to do because of the initial burst of big mob damage. If you can survive that you fight the waves until you finish up with a world boss fight.
BUT you hardly see anyone doing that because it's not as rewarding as being in a mob overwhelming an Alik'r Dolmen or dragon and getting the same reward as everyone else. It's not even as rewarding as solo-ing a world boss as you're not guaranteed a set item drop.
Even the toughest trials -- the endgame for the toughest trials is apparently now selling carries. SELLIING CARRIES for the HARDEST CONTENT IN THE GAME.
Only those specific elements that have a high reward-to-TIME ratio -- not DIFFICULTY but TIME -- will attract people who grind rewards. Everything else will be ignored and wasted -- Like almost all of Craglorn except the main XP farming spots.
There is no "harder content" really. There is only content that is hard enough but can still be overcome.
If no one can overcome them, it's going to get nerfed. If they can overcome them then it's going to get farmed.
People who want a SOLO STORY mode aren't interested in farming rewards. How the hell do you farm a story? If they wanted to farm rewards they have the existing group dungeons already. A lot faster than going through a dungeon solo, Story mode or not.Edited by Dusk_Coven on 26 January 2020 08:384 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭witchdoctor wrote: »It might not have been in this thread, and whilst I am positive I recall the poster's username, I won't tag them.
A comment was made that one of the 'problems' with the quest structure was the need to 'coordinate the clicking' as you proceed through quest dialogue.
I'd appreciate someone giving a real world example of how the formatting and delivery of the quest in a dungeon prohibited them from completing the quest.- Not due to player behaviour
- Not hyperbolic, 'Devil's Advocate,' or it happened to my guildie's cousin
An actual example; e.g., Selene's. Which, as I recall, does not have that issue as I have continued reading quest dialogue long after my party mates accepted and went off to engage in pleasant negotiations with the native Bosmers.
you are mixing up progressing the quest and ENJOYING the quest. progressing the quest for skill points requires minimal to no interaction, as long as at least one person progresses it - you are probably going to have it register.
however- ENJOYING the quest kinda comes with wanting to enjoy ALL of the dialogue. which... you cannot.
this is not unique to dungeons, BTW - more then once I would approach my quest target area only to realize that someone has already started the event so I had a choice to make - join in or walk away and restart after they are done, so that I get to see all of the event and listen to ALL of the dialogue.
but its a little easier to walk away when someone progresses out in a world quest before you, so you walk in on the middle - and redoing it. walking away from the dungeon, requires trying to find a group... again.
the very same dungeon you mention. Selene. first person to zone in - starts in game discussion between NPC's that culminates in them acknowledging your presence and making the quest available for pick up. if you are not the first person to zone in - you miss out parts or all of that discussion. it may seem like a small thing, but it adds up. there are a lot of these scenes in Selene's actualy, that trigger the moment first person approaches the trigger spot - from the earliest failed negotiation, to portaling in dying mage, etc. you lag behind? you miss those. and while you said "not due to player behavior" player behavior is exactly the problem. other players.
sometimes, you still have an option to talk to npc's. and sometimes - they run off. sometimes they do not, but you get much more limited dialogue ou of them, something in a vein of - we gotta get moving etc etc.
@Linaleah
Thank you for responding. I was 99% sure it was you.
You have identified several things which, and truly no offence is meant, that IMO are 'individual player problems.' [Player] cannot schedule. [Player] cannot find like-minded people. [Player] feels 'bad.'
But you have also identified what is perhaps a technical issue. One that can, and IMO should, be addressed.
Perhaps the easiest solution is to replace the trigger that causes the quest to auto-advance with a prompt that asks, 'Join quest in progress? Yes or No.'
I would agree with you that technical behaviour, which you are right, can be found open world too, is annoying.
I would further agree that quests which involve the death of a boss should not stop a player from advancing the quest. I'm thinking Vaults of Madness, where I suspect, but am not sure, that your progress is stymied if Grothdar dies before you have finished speaking to the ghost trapped in Death's Head (which is easy enough on normal).
Otherwise, my opinion, for what it is worth (except as a subscriber), is I would prefer ZOS to not spend resources on a solo version dungeons.0 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭YES. We want a story mode.witchdoctor wrote: »Perhaps the easiest solution is to replace the trigger that causes the quest to auto-advance with a prompt that asks, 'Join quest in progress? Yes or No.'
SWTOR locks flashpoint progress at dialog decision points and some cutscenes with something like this.
What you end up with is people typing in chat for you to skip the scenes by pressing spacebar.
In ESO I suspect what would also happen is you get kicked.
Getting kicked for it rarely happens in SWTOR because for most of the flashpoints (dungeons in SWTOR) that do have long cutscenes or many dialogues, they also have STORY mode already.
And in SWTOR there is actually MORE incentive to kick someone because 3 players + companion on healing is actually better than 4 players in almost every case. So if someone did get kicked, groups often just pull out a companion instead of trying to queue a replacement.Edited by Dusk_Coven on 26 January 2020 09:021 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »In ESO I suspect what would also happen is you get kicked.
I don't think there is an equivalent in ESO. Those decision points tied up everyone, regardless if it was your 1st or 101st time doing a FP.
Edit: you are comparing apples and oranges in that regard. Players don't get held up by another's quest dialog unless they chose to be held up.
As always, your mileage in online games is improved by grouping with friends/those of similar desires.Edited by witchdoctor on 26 January 2020 09:050